Get spells?
As mentioned, most martial (full BAB) classes have 4 + Int or even 6 + Int skill ranks.
However, even a "standard" fighter can do pretty well, with some planning. For instance:
Human fighter 8 (reach tripping/two-handed weapon/Intimidation)
20 Str (+2 race, +2 advancement), 14 Dex, 12 Con, 13 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha
Traits: Birthmark, one other trait (select to add a class skill you want to focus in)
Feats: 1st- Combat Expertise, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack; 2nd- Improved Trip; 3rd - Weapon Focus (Hooked Lance); 4th- Dazzling Display (Hooked Lance); 5th- Gory Finish; 6th- Greater Trip; 7th- Shatter Defenses; 8th- Improved Critical (Hooked Lance)
Skills: Intimidate 8 (+15), three other skills with maximum ranks (assuming FCB goes to hp)
The hooked lance threatens criticals less often than a falchion, but does more damage (x4 multiplier) when it does; the average damage is about the same*. The hooked lance also has the reach and trip special qualities.
*- Until 11th-level, when Bleeding Critical/etc. can be taken, there is little mathematical difference between a 18-20/x2 and a x4 weapon.
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Oh my Outer Gods, they nerfed Lore Warden of all things? Are you kidding me?
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Oh my Outer Gods, they nerfed Lore Warden of all things? Are you kidding me?
Nope, martials cant have nice things
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Some of those background skills DCs are . . . odd. Like "Navigate a ship in fair conditions" being DC 20. How many NPC sailors have a +10 in their profession so that they can take 10?An entire crew (or even just the officers) making aid another checks makes that pretty easy.
Not too hard even without aid another.
3 class skill
1 rank
1 Wis
3 skill focus
2 masterwork tool
And a ship's captain likely is higher than 1st level.
It's funny how when it comes to the social skills, we expect players to be able to do the things that characters do, but with no other aspect of the game is this true. Like... no one has ever said "Okay, let's go to the rock climbing wall and you can show me the move your monk is trying to do" or "Hmm, well, player, if you can't actually tie this sling, I don't see how your character could." In fact, when it comes to Knowldege skills, we tend to *want* player ability and character ability separate. It's completely acceptable to say "I can't lie that damn well, but Talkie The Liar is waaaay better than me." The game is about abstractions; social interactions are a part of that, too.
Sure, but since me and my players are all friends gathered around a table for what's supposed to be a social activity, abstracting out IC social interaction kind of defeats the entire point of getting together to play in the first place.
If you choose to be in the bar anyway. Ask around in there. Tons of information to be had. You don't even need to "convince" people with charisma. Put that high Constitution as a fighter to use. Challenge them to a drinking game where you get information if you win and you buy their drinks if they win. If nothing else it will give you something to do. Even considering that, you will be given false information, but playing that false information like you got something really worth while is fun too.
If you get them that drunk, they probably won't be able to give you any information even if they want to.
Background skills from Unchained help a bit. Give you two extra points a level to put into a selection of non-combat, more flavorful skills.
Also while I generally don't consider "use this third party thing" to be an acceptable answer because most DM's I've personally experienced are loathe to allow any third party material, Everyman's Unchained Fighters offers some excellent options for boosting the fighter's utility(including but not limited to bumping the class up to 4+int skill points). So if you can sell your DM on it, definitely make use of it.
Half-orcs have two separate alternate race trait that gives them the same extra skill point per level that humans get. Most races have alternate traits to give them bonuses to various skills; sticking with half-orcs for a moment, Monstrous Sympathy or Overlooked Mastermind both give bonuses to social interactions that can help compensate for a lower charisma score.
The Cunning feat from the Villain Codex gives an extra skill point per level as a counterpart to Toughness. Depending on how feat-intensive you build is it may be worth sacrificing one feat to be more effective at non-combat related issues.
Build to your strengths.
While good advice, I'd go the opposite route: build to your weakness!
Feats like Breadth of Experience or (Improved) Improvisation can make you passable at everything you're not trained in. Add some rerolls, get some tools... and Bob the Fighter's your uncle!
Dump that Int though - you need to avoid formal training so as not to impede your natural talents.
As someone who likes playing a versatile, high skill character, I feel your pain. I just started my second Pathfinder fighter, and it's all about finding a concept that you can roleplay, having a few extra skill points, and making the most of every opportunity. My last fighter took traits that made him an ex-prostitute and disgraced officer (I can't remember the exact ones), so I maxed out diplomacy as he tried to scheme and seduce his way into a position as a general in an army- any army. By the time we wrapped up Rise of the Runelords we had a small army of monsters and extra-dimensional creatures along for the ride.
This week my 1st level Zon-Kuthon worshiping fighter didn't make a single attack but made all of the Knowledge: Planes checks and solved all of the riddles & puzzles.
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It's funny how when it comes to the social skills, we expect players to be able to do the things that characters do, but with no other aspect of the game is this true.
Yeah, it's kind of unfair that someone who can talk their way into or out of anything can play a low Cha dwarf with no social skills, but still schmooze their way around using the *players* skills, while someone who may be autistic, or just not terribly quick on their feet, but is playing a high Cha bard is expected to deliver a stunning argument on the fly *just to have their character do what he is best at.*
As for the original question, Aid Other allows the Fighter a 50% chance, even if he's got no useful skills, to try and give the tracking druid or schmoozing bard a +10% to their roll. That's not great, but it's better than 'I go drink.'
A house rule granting low skills classes (cleric, fighter, sorcerer, wizard) a minimum of 4+int mod in skill points can also brighten the situation. (Those that already have 4+int mod in skill points, or more, don't really need a boost, IMO. The idea isn't to give *everyone* more skill points, just to help out those lagging behind. If that might feel too generous, limiting the extra 2 skill points to only be Craft, Knowledge, Perform or Profession skills could be one way to tweak it.)
It's funny how when it comes to the social skills, we expect players to be able to do the things that characters do, but with no other aspect of the game is this true.Yeah, it's kind of unfair that someone who can talk their way into or out of anything can play a low Cha dwarf with no social skills, but still schmooze their way around using the *players* skills, while someone who may be autistic, or just not terribly quick on their feet, but is playing a high Cha bard is expected to deliver a stunning argument on the fly *just to have their character do what he is best at.*
As for the original question, Aid Other allows the Fighter a 50% chance, even if he's got no useful skills, to try and give the tracking druid or schmoozing bard a +10% to their roll. That's not great, but it's better than 'I go drink.'
A house rule granting low skills classes (cleric, fighter, sorcerer, wizard) a minimum of 4+int mod in skill points can also brighten the situation. (Those that already have 4+int mod in skill points, or more, don't really need a boost, IMO. The idea isn't to give *everyone* more skill points, just to help out those lagging behind. If that might feel too generous, limiting the extra 2 skill points to only be Craft, Knowledge, Perform or Profession skills could be one way to tweak it.)
The point is I want the player to try.
The roll is the force of personality. I just want a sincere attempt to roleplay the social interactions. Even bad attempts can be successful. But not if no effort is there. Just watch politicians..they can deliver a Terrible speech and people will still take up after them.
But a force of personality without an attempt is like remaining silent or not caring.
Balkoth,
Tactics don't often require a lot of intelligence as it is defined in the game. If it did, well, pack hunting animals would not exist. Tactics are mostly basic perceptiveness and experience, both learned and instinctual. Yes, intelligent people IRL will make better use of this experience, intelligence is a force multiplier. By the way, some very effective manipulators have been actually rather stupid and uncharismatic, relying on pity and being underestimated.
As to having evidence and a well reasoned argument obviating the need for a diplomacy check. Have you payed any attention to what is going on in the world?
Here's a thought to consider: a 7 Int character is not a tactical genius. That's only 1 Int above a *troll.* But people don't bat an eyelash when the 7 Int PC maneuvers perfectly around the battlefield flawlessly exploiting any advantage he can. People are using the *player's* tactical ability instead of the *character's* tactical ability.
In the case of a low-intelligence character, it could be less good tactics and training, and more intuitive instincts.
Take wolves for example, they only have Intelligence 2, but use amazingly effective pack tactics.
Intuition is covered by Wisdom I think? Wolves have 12 Wisdom.
But the point is that some parts of the game are done using the player's "mental stats" (such as deciding which enemies to attack) and some are done using the character's mental stats (such as a Perform check to play a musical instrument).
Exactly where the dividing line is varies per group. Some groups might prefer to have a conversation done purely as a dice roll (because that's more game-y and less metagame-y, because it rewards investment in the Diplomacy skill) while others might prefer it to be entirely acted out (because that has the potential to be memorable and interesting, because it allows players to participate in social situations even when they don't have the highest Charisma in the group).
Anyway, try to avoid badwrongfunning other people's games.
If you're playing a fighter and complaining that you don't have anything to do out of combat, you should play another class. Fighters are combat specialists.
While the bard is gathering info with diplomacy checks, the druid is tracking footprints, and the sorcerer is casting divination spells, the fighter actually has a lot of freedom to do anything because his defined role isn't needed at this exact second. For instance, the fighter may choose to guard one of these party members while they do what they do, or the fighter can go rough up a suspected villain, or work on his profession/craft, which might be armorsmith or even alchemy (fighter with swift drinker?).
Local pub? Great source of information. The fighter checks out the local pub, orders a pint, notices the bartender is a little shifty, the orc at the end of the bar is mean-mugging him, or whatever. This information can go a long way, especially for tangents and side-questing.
If you're playing a fighter and complaining that you don't have anything to do out of combat, you should play another class. Fighters are combat specialists.
While the bard is gathering info with diplomacy checks, the druid is tracking footprints, and the sorcerer is casting divination spells, the fighter actually has a lot of freedom to do anything because his defined role isn't needed at this exact second. For instance, the fighter may choose to guard one of these party members while they do what they do, or the fighter can go rough up a suspected villain, or work on his profession/craft, which might be armorsmith or even alchemy (fighter with swift drinker?).
Local pub? Great source of information. The fighter checks out the local pub, orders a pint, notices the bartender is a little shifty, the orc at the end of the bar is mean-mugging him, or whatever. This information can go a long way, especially for tangents and side-questing.
Thing is, Slayers, Rangers, Paladins, and Cavaliers are also combat specialists, but they also have class features that help them do things out of combat.
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I think it's doable to run social skills in a way that rewards both RP, and actually having put your points where your mouth is.
Do require a skill roll, but count bonuses for arguments the player proposes or concessions he makes towards the person he's trying to persuade. I'm talking bonuses in the +2 to +5 range; enough to make a difference but not enough to make character skill irrelevant.
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I think it's doable to run social skills in a way that rewards both RP, and actually having put your points where your mouth is.
Do require a skill roll, but count bonuses for arguments the player proposes or concessions he makes towards the person he's trying to persuade. I'm talking bonuses in the +2 to +5 range; enough to make a difference but not enough to make character skill irrelevant.
Ok, here is what came up at our table yesterday with some guys that are pretty new to gaming. (I'm going to pretty extensively paraphrase so no one feels slighted.)
Player1: Well I want to make friends with him, but I'm, not sure what to say. My player has a pretty high charisma score and some ranks in the social skills though so should know how to make friends.
GM: Yeah, I get that. So what kinds of things to you want to get across that would give a caravan trader reasons to be friends with you?
Player1: Well... we go lots of places and meet lots of people, so that could help him.
GM: Good. Anything else?
Player1: Well our boss might buy any magic items he comes across.
GM: Ok, that works. Are you going to really help him with contacts and the boss or are you just running a scam on him?
Player1: Hunh? Oh no, Yeah we can talk to the boss and stuff.
GM: Ok so you come up with friendly patter about the world wide contacts you can make available to him and point out that your boss is rich and in the market for unusual things. Role me a diplomacy check.
Player2: Hey we could also introduce him to that other merchant we already talked to before.
GM: Ok, you role an assist on the diplomacy check.
The players with a bit more experience, basically go through that conversation in their own head and tell the GM what they are trying to do even though they don't know exactly how to word it. The players that are more socially apt come up with their own conversation. If anyone comes up with exceptionally good reasons are does an especially good job at convincing, the GM will usually lower the DC by 1-3 points.
I can't really tell you if that is RAW, RAI, or house rule. However, it works pretty well for us. I've never heard anyone complain about it.
Here is a build I posted a while back for a social fighter, who still focuses the vast majority of resources on combat, but does very well (in my opinion) as the face of the party.
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S 14 +2 race
D 14
C 14
I 13
W 12
C 10Ability scores are really not that different then a "normal" fighter.
You get the traits that make sense motive and diplomacy class skills and give you a +1. Full ranks in both, plus +4 and +6 bonuses from feats means:
10th level fighter:
+3 class, +1 trait, +10 ranks, +1 ability, +4 feat = +19 sense motive
+3 class, +1 trait, +10 ranks, +6 feat = +20 diplomacySo you invest 3/20 ability point buy points.
2/12 feats
2/2 traits (or 3/11 feats if you count traits as 1/2 feat)
2/3 skill points
I think it would be even easier to get wisdom skills like survival, perception, and sense motive. Also, throwing in racial bonuses like a humans bonus skill points adds another skill. You could always choose skills instead of hp for favored class, although I probably would generally choose the hp for a fighter.
Thing is, Slayers, Rangers, Paladins, and Cavaliers are also combat specialists, but they also have class features that help them do things out of combat.
Sure, but this thread assumes that we chose fighter anyway, so we play with the hand we dealt ourselves.
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Here is a build I posted a while back for a social fighter, who still focuses the vast majority of resources on combat, but does very well (in my opinion) as the face of the party.
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I think it would be even easier to get wisdom skills like survival, perception, and sense motive. Also, throwing in racial bonuses like a humans bonus skill points adds another skill. You could always choose skills instead of hp for favored class, although I probably would generally choose the hp for a fighter.S 14 +2 race
D 14
C 14
I 13
W 12
C 10Ability scores are really not that different then a "normal" fighter.
You get the traits that make sense motive and diplomacy class skills and give you a +1. Full ranks in both, plus +4 and +6 bonuses from feats means:
10th level fighter:
+3 class, +1 trait, +10 ranks, +1 ability, +4 feat = +19 sense motive
+3 class, +1 trait, +10 ranks, +6 feat = +20 diplomacySo you invest 3/20 ability point buy points.
2/12 feats
2/2 traits (or 3/11 feats if you count traits as 1/2 feat)
2/3 skill points
I typically burn at least one feat for Fast learner with a human.
You could also take the Cunning feat for even more skill points/level.
Well if your fighter worships Desna they can use Charisma for attack and damage rolls with a starknife for the cost of one feat.
Suddenly you're the face and the damage dealer.
I did this with a twf halfling barbarian in a one-shot last month.
Loads of fun and nobody else at the table was sure what to think.
I typically burn at least one feat for Fast learner with a human.
You could also take the Cunning feat for even more skill points/level.
Toughness, Fast Learner, and Cunning
Your "favored class bonus" each level becomes +2hp/+2 skills.That is in interesting set of feats...
Thanks for posting those.
The greatest feat is always money. Hire people to know things for you. That's what I do in real life: I purchase the services of doctors, plumbers, electricians, teachers, etc. And, if your DM lets you take leadership, it's even free.
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The greatest feat is always money. Hire people to know things for you. That's what I do in real life: I purchase the services of doctors, plumbers, electricians, teachers, etc. And, if your DM lets you take leadership, it's even free.
No, that is why we, the adventurers, were hired. There can only be so many layers of delegation, or else we might be cut out as unnecessary middlemen.