The Fifth Archdaemon

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I could certainly see enjoying a book like this but at the same time I don't know how high on the list of priorities I'd put it.

It's one of the reasons I feel that something approximating the 30-60 page soft cover chronicles/campaign setting line wouldn't be amiss. I suppose that financially it just isn't viable in the current market considering they've mostly discontinued it even for Pathfinder in favor of the world guide hardcovers, but I feel that monthly books of reasonable length would expand the setting better than twice a year, maybe, hardcover books that go into significantly more depth but leave wide swaths of the setting untouched.

Which, I suppose that's a preference issue. Would you rather know about more parts of the setting but less about each individual part, or know more detail about a few specific parts.


It would be bad. I'm not a talented person.


Calling me "active" on here is strong. I'm semi-active at best.

But yeah while I haven't done a deep dive into Galactic Magic certainly the impression I got from glancing over it was that the answer to the question was no, the changes to magic are non-diegetic & do not reflect an actual weakening of magic within the context universe.

Which, that's neat.


Kishmo wrote:

It feels silly to us, as real-world humans living alone in our galaxy, but I imagine that, in-universe, a bunch of similar feline-ish species would feel 'different enough.' Like if you compare humans with lashunta (humans - with antennae!) or (pre-Apocalypse) elebrians (humans - with big heads!) or verthani (humans - with lankiness!) or elves (humans - with pointy ears!) and even add in an uplifted gorilla to complete the analogy; that feels pretty similar to pahtra vs amurrun vs uplifted big feline to me. Outwardly similar, especially to morphologically dissimilar species looking in, but still their own thing. Gets into that whole convergent evolution / Star Trek "forehead aliens" thing, lol.

Which is to say: excluding amurrun because pahtra already exist isn't a good reason, I don't think. (Not including amurrun because they're not interesting or there's not a unique/interesting design space for them, though, is a different matter.)

I agree, I've never been one to tout the redundancy argument. I'm just saying that it may be best to include them in a place where you can lean in & explore the contrasts to head off that criticism.


RiverMesa wrote:

Catfolk. Like, the amurrun from Pathfinder.

"But RiverMesa, we already have pahtra!", I hear you say.
Exactly - what is it like to have two uncannily similar species, despite them originating from two different star systems? And when one doesn't have a homeworld to speak of anymore.

(Similarly, lizardfolk/iruxi, as contrasted with, say, the vesk.)

I've mused on this idea before, both on the idea of having pahtra & amurrunaround to contrast with each other, but also combine that with taking the awakened bear idea & applying it to some big cats to throw that into the mix as well, and ask the question of what really are the differences & distinctions between a race that happened to evolve into anthropomorphic cats & one that was engineered out of actual cats.

I think it's an interesting idea to play with but I wonder if it might not be better suited for a "races of the pact worlds" type book where there's more room to go in depth about it rather than the relatively short blurbs Alien Archives are allotted.


Something about Lao Shu Po's art was bugging me for a bit; it reminded me of a monster from pf1e, like the art had just been traced over. Went through my Bestiaries & found it; the ijiraq from Bestiary 4 has almost the exact same pose. They aren't as identical as I was remembering when I first saw Lao Shu Po, but they're eerily close.


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I'll almost certainly buy it if only because I do love the setting so much.

Whether or not I'd play or finish it, idk.

I would want the species selection to be beyond the core seven & include at the very least the legacy races along with maybe a few other select choices.


Well this is annoying. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate rpgs that try to replicate the mechanics of ttrpgs. That style of gameplay is like pulling teeth to me; getting through Kingmaker was one of the most frustrating experiences of my life as a gamer & every attempt I've made at Wrath of the Righteous has been like slapping my head against a brick wall.

But they're relatively cheap & easy to make, and can be vehicles for great stories. Kingmaker I would argue is a definite improvement over the AP it's based on. I've got more mixed feelings on Wrath of the Righteous' story but I'd still probably say improvement to lateral move.


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There are some groups I think that works with better than others.

Any faction or group or element of the game can be expanded via homebrew development & sometimes it's best to do that specifically with the elements you know the actual published material is never going to touch so that way you don't have to worry about contradiction

The AAF is a good group for it because there's a lot of interesting plots & stories to be told with that group, but mechanically there's not a lot to do with them. They're unlikely to be in an antagonistic role & even if they are, they're ultimately just people fighting for a cause so they're not going to have special, unique monsters just to them. There's no mechanical ability you could come up with that would necessitate being a part of that faction to be part of the game. So it's easy to include them narratively & the mechanical aspect is a light load for it.

Compare another group that hasn't gotten much attention since their blurb in the CRB, the Dominion of the Black, where you can homebrew a lot about these guys but eventually, sooner or later, your players are going to need some monsters to fight. Which, some dms don't mind doing the heavy lifting of monster design, some do, so it'd be nice if Paizo did that heavy lifting for them.


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It does strike me that even with the new additions none of the deities feel like a proper fit for my half-orc soldier, who if I had to pick would have a sort of polytheistic worship of Gorum, Milani, & Shelyn, but he doesn't have the points in culture or mysticism to be aware of them for how obscure they are.

Oh well. He gets to keep on being agnostic in the "gods are real but none of them resonate with me so I don't worship any of them" sense.


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The Devourer's look reminds me a bit of certain Aeon designs, especially the Akhana & Theletos, who have a strong "multiple arms emerging from a swirling vortex" thing going on.


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Gathols look to me a bit more like pangolins on steroids.


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As someone who suffers from severe chronic pain, I would jump at the chance to cure it with the wave of a magic wand. I don't define myself by the pain, it isn't part of who I am as a person, it's something I suffer through. Existing with this pain is not part of any fantasy I have.

But, that's me. That's my experience, my perspective, my preference. This character doesn't exist to appeal to me, personally. It exists to appeal to people with different experiences, perspectives, & preferences to my own.

And that's fine. I personally believe that the best settings are the ones that allow for the most stories to be told within them. It doesn't harm my experience of the setting for someone else to be able to enjoy playing this type of character.


I'd like to see us get more of the classic line up of outsiders.

There's been some subtle hints that planar travel & exploration are going to be more explored in the setting in the future, so it would be nice to fill out the rosters a bit.


According to Giantslayer, yes, giants are descended from Gigas, who in turn were created indirectly & apparently unintentionally by the Titans as they walked across the planes fresh after being created by the gods.

Giantslayer further explains that what separates a "true" giant from lesser giantkin like ogres is that true giants physilogically adapt to their environment in extreme ways, hence, fire giants & frost giants & desert giants and so on and so forth.

That's presumably something of an inherited trait from how the Gigas were shaped by the planes they were born out of. Though I'd note that by this logic, trolls should be classified as true giants given how mutable they are to their environment, but they get stuck as giantkin regardless.

Giantslayer from my skimming of it seems rather mum on exactly how we got from Gigas to Giants & how the descendants of the planar based gigas got to the prime material but I'd imagine the specifics of that are 1; best left to mythology rather than history, and 2; best filled in by a given dm if they want to make it important rather than dictated by Paizo.

Giantslayer #1 has a Giant Primer chapter that gives brief descriptions for ash, cliff, desert, jungle, ocean, river, rune, shadow, slag, tiaga, & wood giants & longer, half page descriptions for cave, cloud, fire, frost, hill, marsh, stone, and storm giants.

Giantslayer #s 3 & 5 have chapters on Minderhal & Zursvaater, respectively, which give some insight into Stone & Fire giant culture.

Giantslayer #4 has a chapter on "Titanic Alliances" which give run downs of giants & their relations to & positions in various organizations throughout the inner sea, tying them into existing cultures & societies more concretely.

Giantslayer #6 has an ecology of the Gigas article.

Given that Return of the Runelords goes heavily into the origins of Thassilon, I'd imagine it has at least some information on the state of the giant societies that lived in the area & were enslaved. I wouldn't go so far as to state that the region that would become Thassilon is the place of their origination, though. I suppose it could well have been the craddle of their civilzation on Golarion but more likely there just happened to be a relatively large population of giants in that region & the Runelords decided that if they were going to enslave people for manual labor, might as well go big. The only giants who can be directly said to have originated from Thassilon would be rune, slag, & inverted giants, who were created directly from their magical experiments on natural giant breeds.

Giants Revisited would also be a prime source to check. The Monster Codex also has chapters on Frost & Fire giants.


Garretmander wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
"why no pre-existing portal to Golarion?"
The answer to that question tends to be: Rovagug.

Certainly the most plausible and likely answer. Does imply that whoever built the original gates on Castrovel knew that Rovagug was there but I assume some basic divination magic would tell them that.


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So the big setting lore chapter in SF AP #42: Whispers of the Eclipse(Horizons of the Vast Part 3 of 6) is on the history and current state of elven culture, titled the Elven Diaspora. Not referencing elves specifically inhabiting the asteroid belt known as the Diaspora, but rather the scattered & broken state of the elven people as a whole.

I want to talk about it, and I'm going to be doing so with no thought nor restraint on spoilers though from what I can tell it doesn't have much if anything to do with the plot of the AP itself - I get these things for the setting info & monsters and don't look at the actual adventure content.

So first thing to note is that I've never been a particular fan of elves. Like, at all. In anything. Conceptually I've liked them in a few settings, in Pathfinder I liked that they were from another planet but the confused nature of their lore presented two sides of them that I found equally unappealing. Just never been my thing.

But I did find this article deeply intriguing, both for the info it had on elves themselves but also more general setting info both for Starfinder but also implications for Pathfinder. So I'm going to highlight some points;

First thing first, the article reveals that the elf gates weren't wholly original elven inventions. They were based off of preexisting artificial magical portals on Castrovel that early elves found & used to explore and settle various other planets; specifically the article names Akiton, Triaxus, and Verces but the wording implies that these were just the main three of at least a few other worlds "within the solar system" that they traveled to. Golarion, notably, isn't one of these - the gate there was one of the ones the elves created on their own only after starting to settle the others.

Now I don't know if this has been established before elsewhere and I skipped over it because I presumed disinterest in elven topics, but if nothing else the question of who put those portals there and why is one filled with intrigue, as is the related question "why no pre-existing portal to Golarion?"

Second thing: the Oatia. This is an ancient sect of tattooed elven "scholar priests" that broke off from mainline elven society because while most elves were focused on establishing connections with the land of the worlds around them, they were looking out to more distant stars for wisdom, surveying even stars outside the Starfinder galaxy.

What's interesting here is two things; one, their methods included receiving messages from distant galaxies and making contact with "bizarre and powerful aliens" and "communing with cosmic demigods". So, that could mean a lot of spooky and dangerous things out there in the cosmos got some calls from Castrovel that could have drawn in some attention.

Second thing that's interesting to me about them is that the Oatia actually managed to spread out as they fractured into mores specific niches of specific study, they actually spread out into the stars closer to the entities or areas they were focused on as individuals. Including, explicitly, travelling to distant galaxies, and that is interesting to me because it is, so far as I am aware - and I could well have missed it - but this is the first mention of successful intergalactic travel in Starfinder.

It was a known thing in Pathfinder(And the Oatia and everything I've mentioned so far takes place well before even when Pathfinder is set) that Intergalactic travel was possible, but the idea of it hasn't really been touched on in Starfinder at all other than it specifically being mentioned that the Drift apparently doesn't allow for it. So I'm curious as to whether this is just an acknowledgement of this being something that used to be possible in this universe but isn't anymore, or if this might be bringing it up just to put it in our minds in case it's a limit that might be going away with Drift Crisis.

So yeah, one we could have tattooed elven old ones cultists waiting to herald the return of their cosmic demigod patrons into the world as an adventure hook and a possible hint of other galaxies being open to us, if I'm not looking too much into things & being overly optimistic.

So to highlight how far back in time this is, we now get to the bit on the Age of Darkness which is noted as being one of a few different things to happen within a relatively short span of time(for elves, at least) that caused a collapse of this interplanetary elven civilization. Absorbing a mass of refugees from Golarion back to Castrovel put a strain on them, but it would have been a strain they would have been able to handle if not for at the same time being pushed off of Triaxus by the dragons who were just now launching their conquest of the planet, and *something* happening on Akiton where all of their communities just flat out disappeared, and everyone they sent to investigate disappeared, so they just up and destroyed the gates to Akiton to be safe.

So they lost three of their major colony worlds at roughly the same time which, and it has been a long while since I've read one of the deep dive articles on Triaxus, but I think this might be the first mention of a firm date for when the dragons established their kingdoms there; to my memory that had always been presented as something of a time immemorial type situation on the planet. But the dragons rising at roughly the same time as Earthfall and the Age of Darkness is probably coincidental.

What really interests me here is what in the hell happened on Akiton. A part of me wonders if maybe this is going to lead into Aktion's John Carter of Mars origins & we'll see a hidden population of native drow on Akiton as the cause of this to stand in for Barsoom's black martians - seeing that they were the strongest inspiration for drow in the first place - but that almost feels too mundane to me. Maybe Aktion just likes to eat elves every few thousand years. Either way, I am intrigued.

We don't get any mention of what happened to the Verces colonies - or any of the other potential colonies they might have had though given the state of the other planets in the solar system we can at least guess on those. But presumably there might just be an uninterrupted elven population on Verces dating back to this time.

There's a quick recap of them resettling Golarion after the darkness passed, but the last thing on the pre-gap history section I want to talk about is on the "technological revolution" which is another piece that confirms the solar system, including Golarion, had entered into an interplanetary space age before the gap started. Elves were apparently somewhat late adopters, slow to embrace technology in general and starships in particular because of their comfort with magic and specifically magic portals, but at least one group, the Ivaria, eventually set off in a fleet of generation ships to explore other solar systems and are credited as being responsible for a whole bunch of still existent populations of half elves.

So now we move on to the Gap & the disappearance of Golarion, where it's mentioned that Golarion's elves were estimated to account for "at least half" of the total population so losing that over night was a big hit. It's also just speaks to either how few elves there are in general or how many elves lived on Golarion because apparently during the Gap the elves had tried expanding out again, with evidence of them trying to resettle Triaxus as well as the moons of the gas giants, and even the Marixah Republic and Daimalko of all places.

I'd like to pause a moment here and note one thing about the gap section of the article that either bugs me or concerns me because it notes repeatedly that the gap erased memories of interpersonal connections, but previous lore on the gap was very explicit on that not being how it worked. It erased memories of dates, times, events, but you still had your interpersonal relationships. You wouldn't remember when or where or how you met your spouse, or how long you'd been married, but you still recognized them to be your spouse. You didn't know how old your kid was, but you still recognized them as your kid. That sort of thing.

This article doesn't treat the Gap's memory loss as working this way, noting that a significant portion of the specific elven trauma is having to live with not knowing who your family, who your lovers, who your children are over that long period of time, and touches on communities established during the gap trying to rebuild with the relationship between the community members being unknown.

So, either this is a mistake and a misunderstanding on the part of the writer who otherwise did a great job with this article, which bugs me because that opens up the possibility that some of the other little tidbits I've latched onto in the article as intriguing hooks might be mistakes or misunderstandings themselves, *or* it's a retcon as to how Gap memory loss worked & they decided to make it somewhat crueler in terms of what you lost, which makes me think the immediate post gap fallout should have been even worse than it was if people didn't even have those very basic connections to hold onto for some form of stability during that time, and also if this is a conscious change to the lore of how Gap memory loss works, it should have been communicated better because a lot of people are going to miss out on this article. *Or* as a third possibility I suppose it's possible that this is just specifically how it affected elves and no one else for some reason which there could be a hook there but that would be an odd thing and it's not communicated as such in the article.

So moving on to the post Gap era and we've got a break down of the current events, restating that the "collective elven nation" suffered "a betrayal" during the gap with still no explanation as to what that could have been. I will state a certain frustration here, in that I realize it's left open ended (and should be) so a given DM can just make it be whatever they want to suit their purposes, but I feel without at least some sense of the impact of that betrayal, it feels very difficult to empathize with it. Leaving what the betrayal was and who did it blank is fine, but without knowing what the betrayal did, how it harmed the elven nation, the whole idea is rather silly because without a sense of the consequences, the majority of the elven nation retreats into isolationism and paranoia based simply on the knowledge that a betrayal occurred with no indication that the betrayal actually caused any material damage.

Speaking of isolation & paranioa, the image of Sovyrian painted here is one of it's more unflattering. Like it's not full on North Korea but the article definitely doesn't present this as being a good thing for the elven nation or the elves themselves.

Aside from Sovyrian, the Elven Diaspora is broken down into those elves who reacted to the trauma of the gap by spreading out into the stars, then the Delvers - those who've dedicated themselves into trying to locate lost Golarion and seem to being leading the most concentrated effort to do so that I'm aware of, specifically to recontact and if necessary rescue the elves that presumably still lvie there. Apparently these guys are hoping to commune with the Starstone to make that happen.

Then we've got the Vindicators who're a group of calistrian elven assassins who cultivate false friendships in order to assassinate those they believe are responsible for that betrayal up there. Their targets are all based on guess work in an entirely irrational need for revenge so these guys can be a great villain to add to a game of a friendly elven npc who secretly really wants to stab the party because they're convinced that the party is secretly behind whatever horrible thing happened to the elves that they can't remember. Their outfit looks amazing, btw. Kudos to the artist here.

Then you've got Utopians who're out exploring new world explicitly looking for undiscovered ones ripe for colonization so they can start a new purely elven society that will one day supplant Sovyrian as the center of elven culture in the galaxy. Lot of great villain possibilities with these guys on an even larger scale.

And one of the juicier bits; Planar Explorer elves who're settling not other planets, but other planes with limited success in the First World, the Plane of Air, Elysium, and the Astral Plane. This gets me hyped for potential planar adventures coming in the future.

So, yeah. I need to go to sleep now but this is far and away the most interested I've been reading an article on elves that's come out of paizo. Lot of nice tidbits and story hooks and that's the kind of thing I really love in these articles. Left me excited for what if anything might be coming next.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

I really don't grock how things that small and far apart have so much attraction but rocks don't visibly pull on each other.

(cept hemetite)

Put two baseballs a meter apart in the vacuum of space and they will meet each other in the middle. Takes about three days.

The force just isn't strong enough to overcome friction & air pressure.


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Quote:
California. "Small" cities run in the 500,000+ range. There's 40 million people in this state so I'm familiar with population density. For as many densely populated places such as LA there are vast stretches of NOTHING in-between. The populations of these planets should be much higher. IE with modern medicine, communication, and food production methods populations should be MUCH bigger all around. Some of these planets should have numbers in the Billions, instead they are barely inhabited with maybe a few million people. Earth isn't even all that densely populated when it comes to being able to sustain a large population, we just suck at resource management, which is something that Starfinder universe has done a pretty good job. I get newly colonized planets having small populations but homeworlds should be at least reasonably inhabited in order to sustain their basic populations and promote some level of genetic diversity. Even on the Idari it states that there are reclusive traditionalists that live in "the plains" and manage populations of grazing animals in what can only be described as a vast sprawling wilderness but is in reality less than a few dozen hectares. That's why I was having trouble seeing these numbers as sustainable for the amount of productivity thats supposed to be happening (even barring robots). Its almost like during the gap every planet in the universe minus Vesk lost 90% of its population. This is indeed possible but it seems weird that there wasn't a huge population boom after things stabilized.

Ah, see, I'm from Texas. 11 million fewer people with an extra 100k square miles to spread them out in. Just have a hard time reconciling 55k with the term 'podunk' when I've worked in towns that struggle to break 4 digits in their population.

But yeah I agree that the given population numbers for Starfinder are just whatever a given writer thought sounded good in their heads & not a whole lot of thought was put into it after that. I tend to ignore the numbers wholesale.


Shirren_Human_Expert wrote:
Peg'giz wrote:
Shirren_Human_Expert wrote:


I see what you're going at and I can also see what you mean by the math. HOWEVER it is also implied in these that there is plenty of open space in these vessels for either green space, traffic, or food, which skews that idea.

I'm looking at this from the perspective...

I totally understand your point of view.

Open/green spaces are already counted for in cities (also infrastructure, health care etc.) and I also added 30% additional space (in the case of the Idari I even doubled the space).
So I think my estimations are not that far off.

I think the biggest issue with station/ship size is, that doubling it's size didn't mean doubling it's volume, but instead increase it by a factor of 8.
So if you take a aircraft carrier and double it in size (to 2000 ft x 2000 ft x 2000 ft), you don't have (cramped) space for 6000 people but instead for 48.000 people.
If do this again two times, you are at a station with roughly 2,5 km (8000 ft.) side length which has space for 3 Million people (and space for 43.520 fighter jets^^).

As said, scaling sizes (and especially volumens) are something which can be tricky.

Because of this I normally model my players ships in 3D (sometimes just as a rough blockout) and it always amazes me how many (or with small ships how less) space there is. :)

Darn kids and your actual understanding of math and physics!

On to my next point......48,000 seems like not a lot of people. I live in a "podunk small town" and that has 55,000 people. I'd like to think that the Idari came with a lot more people to at least, I'll assume many left when they pulled in but it seems like in the span of a generation or 2 you have millions of Kastathas roaming around the pact worlds having come from such a small sample size.

Where do you live that 55k is considered "podunk small town"? Where I'm from, a small town is less than 20k & a podunk is less than 2k.


Yakman wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:

Honestly I feel my problem with the mystic is that it's functionally a stand in for every single spell casting class that had a variable power source; clerics with domains, sorcerers with bloodlines, psychic disciplines, oracle mysteries, shaman spirits, witch patrons; all of that is mystics & connections now. And druids are just the xenodruid connection.

And I feel it makes it a bit shallow because you can't put all the builds & character concepts from all those classes into one class. It's stretched too thin for me.

i don't think that's a problem at all. you can flavor your mystic however you want.

no two are going to be the same.

I can flavor a game played with a red lego block & a green lego block however I want, too. It won't have a lot of mechanical depth behind it, though.

I'm not saying that starfinder needs a one to one with every class in PF1e but something is going to get lost in trying to cram six or seven classes into one.

The connections just are what they are. The classes they're there to reflect usually had some degree of choice & customization to their kit right out the gate, and that was before the dozens of archetypes got involved - and for the record I'm actually not a fan of Paizo's new approach to archetypes. I preferred them being customized to the class they were for rather than things that had to be designed in a way to fit over any class, or at least almost any class.

But that's a tangent. Point being, yeah I can flavor whatever however I like but it's debatable over whether or not that much of the heavy lifting should be on my shoulders.


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Honestly I feel my problem with the mystic is that it's functionally a stand in for every single spell casting class that had a variable power source; clerics with domains, sorcerers with bloodlines, psychic disciplines, oracle mysteries, shaman spirits, witch patrons; all of that is mystics & connections now. And druids are just the xenodruid connection.

And I feel it makes it a bit shallow because you can't put all the builds & character concepts from all those classes into one class. It's stretched too thin for me.


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I do recall introducing a former friend of mine to D&D/Pathfinder years go & he wanted to dm a section and have it based in his own setting based off a series of novels he's been writing for twenty years that'll never get released. He was certain that worms the size of houses would be able to overpower any adventurer on sheer mass alone. I had to point out to him that in Pathfinder, bholes were a thing.

That intuitive sense of how unassailable something truly colossal would be, partly due to how effortlessly it would swat anything human-sized, just isn't particularly well supported by the game.


I've always worked under the assumption that even if it's not included in their stat blocks, that the appearance of almost all demi-god level creatures is at least somewhat mutable, whether by their own whim or will or by the perception of those looking upon them.

But then I also give *all* dragons the change shape ability, not just metallics, because I think that's just a better narrative tool.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
The dropped object rules being borked does not mean that anything not measuring up to the borked droped object rules is also borked. Who wants to play/watch the exhilerating story of mechs being dropped out of the back of cargo planes to land on stuff? UPS workers?

I used to play with these two guys who's go-to tricks were, respectively, casting Mount to summon the horse as high in the air above a target as he could to drop the horse down & splat it on an enemy, or using dimension door to open a portal a few hundred feet above a target & throw a tree token through it to drop a full sized oak tree on them.

I don't think either worked for UPS but I haven't spoken to them in a few years.


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johnlocke90 wrote:
Leon Aquilla wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:

So interesting thing to note, low and mid level mechs can do more damage just falling on their opponents. A colossal object falling on you does 10d6 damage, reflex save for half. Do it from 30 feet and with a decent acrobatics check the mech only takes 1d6 damage itself.

At low levels, a mech can reasonably one a shot another mech doing this.

Mechs aren't objects for the purposes of that rule any more than a dragon is.

It literally says on page 112 of Tech Revolution in big, capital letters: "Mechs aren't objects"

No, what it says is "mechs do not count as objects for spells and abilities that affect objects.". Environmental damage rule are neither spells nor abilities.

How else would you determine the damage from a 200 ton mech falling on a person?

Via the Chunky Salsa Rule.


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Threads like this make me glad that I just wholesale ignore object damage rules.


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While I personally have no issue with wheelchairs or hover chairs being a part of the game, I also find myself agreeing that the chair's speed just being the base land speed of whoever's sitting in it is... well it's a bit silly. Especially for a hover chair.

If I'm a dwarf who buys a hover chair, cruising along at 20ft, and my nuar friend asks if he can take the chair for a spin & he starts flying around at 40ft, I'd be a little annoyed that I paid a few hundred credits for this thing that is clearly capable of going at 40ft even when carrying a rider significantly larger & heavier than me, but is apparently equipped with an AI that restricts it to half of it's apparent top speed when I'm using it.


I suspect not. Like, the cult of the devourer is very much it's own thing, and I imagine they'd want to keep the Dominion a bit more esoteric than having them worship just a straight up deity rather than a more alien concept.


Name Violation wrote:

It would only teleport the scabbard, not another weapon in addition. Otherwise you "game the system"

You don't get to put a +10 sword in a combat scabbard and get "free" called ability added

No double dipping, 2 for 1,or BOGO deals.

Gotcha. House ruling it so it works because it's more fun that way.


Diego Rossi wrote:

A combat scabbard is an improvised weapon, it can't be enchanted as a weapon.

Being sharpened doesn't change it into a normal weapon, it stays an improvised weapon.

Even without that, the ability teleport only the weapon. Not other stuff.

No, a sharpened combat scabbard is a martial weapon. It's listed in the Adventurer's Armory as a Martial One Handed Melee weapon.


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A bit more on topic; I personally prefer RPG settings be a bit static in that I want them to be sandboxes for us to tell stories in. I'm more interested in Paizo continuously providing me tools with which to tell stories than I am in whatever story Paizo wants to tell me.

Everything being moved "closer together" actively concerns me as a large portion of the appeal of Starfinder to me is the scale of it making it easier to just put stuff in the setting. It's hard to just plop down a new city or country or one from an outside source into Golarion, map's pretty full, unless you've just decided "well this is what Sarusasn is now".

But with Starfinder, bam, here's the Sith Empire & Old Republic from Star Wars. Bit scaled down & history's changed a little to fit them within the bounds of the setting but there they are. Also, bam, here's the Citadel from Mass Effect & it's component societies, same deal. So on, so forth, ad infinitum.

More the map gets filled in, more of the galaxy becomes 'known space', that's harder to do.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Zoomba wrote:

Potentially OT, but something I've thought a bit about recently: with the Drift absorbing a piece of a plane every single time a ship goes into/out of it, it feels like it's only a matter of time before a decently populated settlement on the material plane is stolen in the blink of an eye on day, isn't it?

Which itself is a great adventure hook. Or 'Drift Crisis' if you will. People begin realize the cost and risk to the technology, wondering if other places could be next, and even more ominous could be the uncertainty if it was truly just bad random luck in the cosmos or whether it some force has somehow discovered how to 'weaponize' drift travel and target the section of a plane dragged away...

You’d need something like a trillion trillion trips that borrow from the Material Plane to even get any matter rather than empty space. And only some infinitesimal fraction of those would be anything than a piece of a star. And and the vast majority of the rest would be from a gas giant. And the vast majority of the rest an asteroid or from the crust, mantle, or core of a a rocky planet. Then you have to get even more lucky to hit a city on a planetary surface.

It’s a matter of time, but that time is a huge multiple of the universe’s lifespan.

You're presented with two dice rollers online. You get to roll one of them once. One of them will generate a random number between one and one hundred, the other will generate a random number between one and one million. You don't know which is which.

You push the button & the roller generates 74.

Now, it's certainly more likely that the roller you picked is the one that rolls from one to one hundred. But since you didn't roll 101 or higher, you can never know for sure.

When dealing with randomness, probabilities are useful but we shouldn't fall into the fallacy of believing them to be absolutes. There's no reason why drift travel's planar chomping has to go through all the nothing and the star bits and the gas bits and the dirt bits before getting to the city bits or the space station bits. Sure, there's more of the former, but with a roll of the dice, anything's possible.


If one were to put the Called weapon property onto a Combat Scabbard, Sharpened from the Adventurer's Armory, when activated, would it teleport both the scabbard & whatever weapon was sheathed in the scabbard, or would it just teleport the scabbard, leaving behind any weapon that had been sheathed in it laying on the ground?


I just love the setting. It speaks to me as this universe of infinite possibilities.


Eh, on the one hand, yeah, terror bombing tends not to actually work as a means of demoralization or forcing surrender.

On the other hand, that hasn't stopped anyone from trying it for the last eighty years.


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Peg'giz wrote:

In fact these are arabic numbers not latin. ;)

And I guess these are simply because of the Gallifreyan universal translation matrix which is imbedded in every book and pdf, so we, who can't ready common, can understand it. :D

Also technically Arabic numerals actually originate from India. They're just called "Arabic" because Europe got them from the Arab world.


Near Space does describe the Vesk's evolutionary ancestors as being predators but I don't know that should be taken to mean they're obligate carnivores.


I think the shobhad the gray is standing near is about half the height they're supposed to be.

So yeah I'd call this more thematic than literal.

Big fan of the artist, though. Not sure of their identity but they do a lot of great work for Shadowrun so I'm excited to see them working on my other favorite setting.


The picture of the Pact Worlds system planets that I assume is meant to be a two page spread is functionally one page in the pdf & throws the page count off so that viewing it with two page view doesn't line up the other two page spread pieces of artwork.


I'd imagine that each planet & in most cases, each individual jurisdiction on each individual planet, has it's own judicial system.

The Pact is more comparable to the European Union/NATO than it is to, say, the United States Federal Government. The Pact Council covers high level issues such as sapient rights, trade, & mutual defense, things that are going to have consequences across national & planetary lines, but there's going to be less uniformity further down you go.


I always assumed it just straight doesn't open up for people not attempting the test.

Even if it does open & there's some other mechanism in place preventing someone who used the bridge from passing the test - i.e., even if you get to the stone it doesn't do anything, or the chamber the stone is in only manifests to those who did it the right way, or whatever - I assume all the stuff in there that makes the test so dangerous, be it traps or monsters or whatever is still active even if the test hasn't been started, so you're probably going to get killed.

Here's a question; hypothetically if enough people actually managed to successfully pass the test, they each get their own bridge, what happens when the bridges cover the whole pit? Does the god-rock just run out of juice at that point? Does everyone have to cross over the gap left by Aroden's bridge? Is the only way to take the test to kill off some ascendant gods until enough space is opened up?

I might home brew that as the reason they decided to just take the Starstone out of there & use it to power a space station. Too many people passed the test so no one can do it anymore so we might as well put the rock to some use.


CorvusMask said wrote:

Well do note that creative director of Pathfinder considers Starfinder to be AU and purpose of it is so that Pathfinder writers don't have to read Starfinder lore to be consistent and wise versa :p

So even if you disagree with inconsistencies, its still officially broad strokes AU "they could take place in same continuity, but don't have to". Like Gap DOESN'T have to exist in Pathfinder's future and such and each of APs could have happened successfully or failed in Starfinder's past, but you wouldn't know because of Gap.

Like do note, Starfinder isn't JUST alternate universe, its "broad strokes" one where you can if you want to assume it could take place in same continuity as your pathfinder games. Hence why Gap and Golarion disappearing exists, so game doesn't automatically become AU where it is impossible for it to co exist in same setting as pathfinder. Its left open for you to decide whether or not it takes place in same continuity.

Okay now that's fair.

My initial question was coming more from a place of, have I missed something that was a rather immutable "these two things can't be in the same universe" detail, because thinking of them as being the same enhances my personal enjoyment of the setting.

Having said all that I'm personally opposed to Starfinder being given a rules overhaul to put it in line with PF2e as I am very much not a fan of PF2e's mechanics. So the fact that I'm a proponent of considering them the same universe is not a vote in favor of giving them the same rules.


This is what the CRB has to say about it, specifically;

Quote:
What is known, however, is that while the Gap is universal — and a combination of carbon dating and astrochronology suggest it lasted several millennia—its edges are geotemporally inconsistent. Where one star system might have accurate records stretching back 300 years from the present, worlds in different parts of the galaxy might have 310 years of history, or only 275. Some scholars have even uncovered rare “caches” within the Gap—places where accounts seem suddenly consistent for a given period or topic. For an organization like the Starfinders, locating these scattered bread crumbs and syncing them up with ancient pre-Gap records may yet hold the key to unraveling the greatest mystery of the universe.

I imagine narratively this was done to cover any inconsistencies a given writer might put in regarding the gap, if they got the end date wrong or suggested a period of consistent history going back into what should be Gap time it can be written off as one of these "caches" of consistent history.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Isn’t the GAP only 300 years?

No, the Gap ended 300-some-odd years before the game takes place. The Gap lasted for an unknown amount of time that's generally described in terms of multiple thousands of years, though some mentions of time spans would suggest a shorter frame, the base is covered by the gap's exact length being variable depending on location.


Rysky said wrote:
We have no mention of her falling/losing power so...

There's thousands of years that no one remembers for it to have happened in, and Nocticula hasn't gotten any detailed articles in Starfinder where it would be worth mentioning.

CorvusMask said wrote:

Other things include that Undead aren't anymore inherently evil than other beings and that Aeons are still Neutral instead of Lawful Neutral and inevitables aren't recognized as aeons.

Starfinder also assumes bit weird things regarding planar technology level, but that is bit hard to see if its AU or not since not much planar info in Starfinder yet

There is also this dealio: Starfinder's stated goal is to avoid making up certain future for Pathfinder. But even with Gap, if Starfinder was 100% in same universe as Pathfinder, the Rovagug and Torag and such dealios would be set in stone.

Isn't the stated explanation for the aeon retcon - which I'm well on record of not being a fan of - that aeons go through an eons long process of cycling through the neutral alignments & Pathfinder just happens to take place as they're making the transition from true to lawful neutral? Assuming I just didn't make that up then again, the explanation for that is pretty simple; they worked their way back around in the last few thousand years. And no longer being in LN mode, while Inevitables are stuck there, they wouldn't be classified as the same things.

As for the undead thing, eh, I don't find that convincing in the least. I know people have very strong opinions on it but I find it as convincing as if someone tried to argue that PF1e & 2e were alternate universes because of how goblinoids & orcs are presented in the latter.

My issue with that last point is, what's happened to Torag & Rovagug isn't set in stone because we don't know what's happened to them beyond them not being around in the Pact Worlds system any more, because Golarion isn't anymore.

Which, to me, is the biggest thing keeping it from being an AU because if Starfinder was an AU, then there'd be no need to get rid of Golarion in the manner they did. Keeping it from being the overwhelming dominant focus of the setting is one reason to get rid of it but they could have had it explicitly destroyed or rendered unihabitable or just develop into a fairly boring garden world or be conquered by alien carrots and it wouldn't matter because they could just make it explicit "Starfinder is an alternate universe, the fate of Golarion depicted here has no bearing on the fate of Golarion as it unfolds in Pathfinder."


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
I disagree on Pathfinder and Starfinder being same universe since there are lot of things that makes them broad strokes Alternate Universes at best <_<
Out of curiosity, what things specifically?
Well Nocticula is still a Demon Lord is Starfinder for one.

Is she still a demon lord, or is she a demon lord again?


CorvusMask wrote:
I disagree on Pathfinder and Starfinder being same universe since there are lot of things that makes them broad strokes Alternate Universes at best <_<

Out of curiosity, what things specifically?


Yeah the Revolution doesn't make a whole lot of sense on paper. It's designated as a fighter but the fluff text makes it very clear that it's designed as a racer.

It's by a pretty wide margin my favorite ship in the game based on it's art, but like with several ships in Starfinder I feel there was a break down in communication somewhere between the art design, the crunch, & the fluff.


Did the pdf date get pushed back a week or is my mind playing tricks on me?

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