The Fifth Archdaemon

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Convergent Evolution & Intelligent Design make for strange bedfellows but the resulting bastard offspring is named Convenience.


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My desire for a planet of the apes AP to exist not withstanding, I'm actually not a huge fan of uplifted animals or animal-themed races in general. But I will say I'm curious to see how Paizo could expand on the concept of uplifted animals in a few ways.

First off, contrasting uplifted animals with fantasy/sci-fi races that just happen to, by coincidence of convergent evolution/guiding hand of a creator deity, look like earth animals.

I mean, what are the practical and social/cultural differences between, say, an uplifted lion/tiger and catfolk, pahtra, and cat-related skin-changers? What's the difference between an uplifted bovine & a nuar or a minotaur? How does an uplifted wolf differ from a vlaka or a rougarou?

Secondly, I'd like to see them make uplifted versions of some non-realworld animals they've made for the game. Surely someone put some alien animals through the whole, Island of Doctor Moreaux, process.

Those are just a couple ideas I'd like to see them tackle with this. First one, at least would probably require a longer-form race entry than the Alien Archives have allowed so far so maybe when they get around to making an Advanced Race Guide/Inner Sea Races type book.

But at the same


Looks good, though I admit I am disappointed by the lack of Sith Purebloods.


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I have a personal strong dislike for certain mechanical elements of PF2e and will never under any circumstances play that particular system.

Starfinder isn't perfect, but that isn't a direction I want to see it move in.


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Magnimar doesn't do much for me. I'd probably take it over Korvosa, though.

Still, can't beat Kaer Maga in my mind for Varisian settlements.


Also, for something non-playable, something that resembles the Dark Overlord of the Universe from the Howard the Duck movie. But played completely straight.


Playable nephilim? Playable nephilim.


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keftiu wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:

There are only two things in the Inner Sea I'm interested in and they're Kaer Maga & Absolom.

If it's not that, and it's in the Inner Sea region, I would rather hear about literally anything else on the planet Golarion.

So yes I am very interested in Southern Garund.

This is me, but the only Avistan I want is Numeria.

....

Three things. Three things in the Inner Sea Region.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

The humans native to Akiton, especially Arl, often refer to themselves as "thurok," to distinguish them from pale skinned "Golarites." Thurok dismiss Lost Golarion as a forgotten mote of human history, not worth trying to rebuild or memorialize.

#StarFound

So in your opinion would that make Hylki the Golarite term for Akitonian humans/thurok, or would thurok & hylki be two separate Akitonian ethnicities & hylki is the ones the golarites chose to slap on the whole bunch?


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There are only two things in the Inner Sea I'm interested in and they're Kaer Maga & Absolom.

If it's not that, and it's in the Inner Sea region, I would rather hear about literally anything else on the planet Golarion.

So yes I am very interested in Southern Garund.


The Cleft Lords of the Thoraso Cracks in the First World. Just, everything about them, including playable stats that can be reverse engineered for PF 1e.


keftiu wrote:
The artist’s upload says their art direction was “A reptilian warlord with a lance, riding a feathered dinosaur,” which makes me wonder if it was unused art for Droon, the lizardfolk dino-taming nation in southern Garund?

I mean I always figured Droon had just, straight up, lizard folk where as the cleft lord is very distinct from that.

And well, the use of the lance & style of armor lacks a certain African flavor I'd expect of something associated with Garund that I'd imagine would be included in the art direction if that was the intention.

I'm irrationally frustrated these things aren't a statted race.


Alright so I was flipping through First World: Realm of the Fey today for some research and it's been a good while since I've looked at this book because something stood out to me that didn't catch my attention before.

On page 49 there's an image of a humanoid creature that I'm not familiar with, dressed as a mounted knight, riding a dinosaur into battle armed with a lance. The creature is vaguely saurian itself with no nose, just nostril slits, a wide mouth, and three horns coming out of a crest, it's face resembling(to my eyes) that of a sauropod dinosaur.

This creature is never explicitly identified beyond a mention of "Cleft Lords" who rule "meager holdings" in the Thoraso Cracks, an ancient area of the First World. They aren't more specifically identified, the book doesn't cite any other source they're from, and they aren't statted out in this particular book itself.

Who and what are these guys? Are they statted out in a bestiary and I'm blanking on them? Were they meant to be included in this book and their entry was cut for space? Will they feature more in the future? Is there any info about them outside of this particular book at all?


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thecursor wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
And I think this next part is very, very not likely to happen, but I want as close to a gith and a mindflayer and a goliath as playable races as Paizo can give me without violating copyright law. I want as close to a draenei & a warcraft style troll as they can give me.
A SFS Draenei or Mindflayer would be awesome. I'm picturing our faux Mindflayers ruling over a dark empire dedicated entirely to the worship of Nidal or Zon-Kuthon and the fake-Draenei running around trying to stop them.

That could be a good hook. My thought was just, they'd be from a planet that got Worldwound'd and that didn't get fixed since we've established that planar invasion & conquest of whole worlds is a thing that can and does happen in the setting.


Damanta wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:

Not to be pedantic but by my count there are 101.

Wait really?

Crap my spreadsheet is missing one then :(
I'm at 100 unique races, with 112 total entries.
That's gonna be annoying to figure out which one I need to add.

Here's what I got;

1. Aasimar*
2. Anassanoi
3. Androids *
4. Astrazoans
5. Bantrids
6. Barathu +
7. Bear, Uplifted
8. Bolida
9. Borai
10. Brakims
11. Brenneri
12. Cephalume
13. Contemplative +
14. Copaxi
15. Damai
16. Dessamar
17. Dirindi
18. Draelik
19. Dragonkin +
20. Dromada
21. Drow *
22. Dwarves *
23. Elebrian +
24. Elves *
25. Embri
26. Endiffian
27. Espraksa
28. Ferran
29. Formian +
30. Ghibrani
31. Ghoran *
32. Gnomes *
33. Goblin, Space **
34. Gosclaws
35. Gray +
36. Haan
37. Half-Elves *
38. Half-Orcs *
39. Halflings *
40. Hanakan
41. Hobgoblin *
42. Hortus
43. Humans *
44. Ifrit *
45. Ikeshti
46. Ijtikri
47. Ilthisarian
48. Izalguun
49. Kalo
50. Kasatha *
51. Kayal *
52. Khizar
53. Kish
54. Lashunta *
55. Maraquoi +
56. Morlamaw
57. Neskintis
58. Nuar
59. Oni, Kanabo +
60. Oread *
61. Orc *
62. Osharu
63. Pathra
64. Phentomite
65. Quorlu
66. Raxilite
67. Reptoid *
68. Ryphorian *
69. Sarcesian +
70. Sazaron
71. Screedreeps
72. Scyphozoan
73. Selamid
74. Seprevoi
75. Shakalta
76. Shatori
77. Shimreen
78. Shirrens
79. Shobhad +
80. Skittermander
81. Spathinae
82. SROs
83. Stelliferas
84. Strix *
85. Suli *
86. Svartalfar +
87. Sylph *
88. Telia
89. Tiefling *
90. Trox *
91. Undine *
92. Urog
93. Varculak
94. Verthani +
95. Vesk
96. Vilderaros
97. Vlaka
98. Witchwyrd +
99. Woioko
100. Wrikreechee
101. Ysoki *

* Playable in PF 1e
+ Not playable but statted out or otherwise mentioned in PF 1e

If I've messed up somewhere and put a not actually playable creature down, lemme know.


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Hmm wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

I would prefer more GM-facing content. And if you absolutely must add more playable races, do so only if you're going to give them real background and support, not just a 2 page fire and forget bit.

I get it, cantina feel. But we have about 50 playable races now. There's enough races for the cantina feel.

Fifty? The number is 100 as of August 2019.

But yes, I also want more lore and setting for these races!

Hmm

Not to be pedantic but by my count there are 101.

But I absolutely agree with the concept that we need more lore for these races; a couple books along the lines of Advanced Race Guide & Inner Sea Races are things I think should be high priority from Paizo going forward.

Having said that, I've got chronic alt-itis so I'm all about there being more & more races added onto the pile for options. At a cursory glance I'm counting at least 36 races from PF that haven't been pulled over yet - granted a few of those may reasonably be stated to be redundant. For instance, do we need catfolk when we have Pathra and could Paizo convincingly play off the two races basically being the same thing just slightly diverged like they did with ysoki & Golarion ratfolk?

And others - say kuru, for instance - I'm more than willing to write off as "too niche and confined to Golarion to warrant having a place in a Golarion-less SF". But then, I also thought the same about ghorans and we got those.

But there are a lot of them I do want and even more not-technically playable race monsters from PF that I want to see as playable races in SF. Cyclopses & serpentfolk at the top of that list.

And that isn't touching on racial variants/subraces like the different flavor of tieflings & aasimars that I wanna see. The solar variant of Ifrits fits a lot better in the SF setting than they did in the golarion setting, and I think fit better in SF than the baseline ifrits that we do have. Do need to find a better way of converting PF's +2/+2, no negatives races than just giving them one fixed +2 if we wanna get the other aasimars & also shabti in, though(and I do).

And on top of that I wanna see more original races that play off of traditional sci-fi tropes. AA3 came up with some great wacky ideas I wouldn't have been able to conceive of so I want to see more of that, but I also want to see some more, I guess, boring races like the old star treck/star wars/marvel tact of "basically a human visually but with green/blue/purple skin and maybe weird ears or antenae" of which, yeah we've got the Lashunta & the Damai & arguably the triaxians, but that's about it and I am very much not counting the traditional fantasy races like half-orc or the plane touched as counting here

And I think this next part is very, very not likely to happen, but I want as close to a gith and a mindflayer and a goliath as playable races as Paizo can give me without violating copyright law. I want as close to a draenei & a warcraft style troll as they can give me.


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Nerdy Canuck wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
Wouldn't be a bad place to drop a couple dedicated divine classes, though.
Frankly, I think the Mystic's "divinity-optional" approach is a way better approach for Starfinder's setting.

And you're entitled to that opinion.

I don't share it.


EltonJ wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Time to create a 4th topic :P

For Alien Archive 4? don't you want to wait on Alien Archive 3 to show it's face first?

It's face is definitely shown. I've got the PDF open right now.


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Wouldn't be a bad place to drop a couple dedicated divine classes, though.


Dracomicron wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
Hmm wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Does Jinsuls count? I mean technically not new since Starfinder Society but to people outside of it? :p

If you're asking if they are a playable race... Alas, no. But there are 19 other playable races in the book!

Hmm

Hopefully this grave injustice will be corrected in a future book with a playable variant on the jinsuls.

Though finally having playable izalguuns balances it out a bit.

We don't want playable jinsuls while they are still supposed to be a mysterious enemy race, I don't think. Maybe after we defeat them and make friends with the remainder they can feature in a SFS scenario chronicle like the Copaxi or Morlamaw... then show up as playable in an Alien Archive later.

You say that while playable greys and reptoids exist.


AA3 continued the tradition and included vital statistics.... but only for the 19 races contained within it's pages, not for the Adventure Path/Society races that weren't included, so Ghibrani still haven't been given such details yet.

It also continued the tradition of the Starfinder devs having absolutely no clue how weight works and whether or not the given weight ranges for a race make any sense appears to be random.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
With the Drift, galaxies kind of lose a bit of emphasis -- all distances are relative to Absalom Station thus far.
Its relative to the number of drift beacons you have, the physical distance is almost irrelevant.

Isn't it specified that, even with Drift travel, intergalactic distances are insurmountable?


It's still exactly where it was, just someone cast a planetary-scaled mythic spell to make it invisible and incorporeal.


Hmm wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Does Jinsuls count? I mean technically not new since Starfinder Society but to people outside of it? :p

If you're asking if they are a playable race... Alas, no. But there are 19 other playable races in the book!

Hmm

Hopefully this grave injustice will be corrected in a future book with a playable variant on the jinsuls.

Though finally having playable izalguuns balances it out a bit.


I don't think they've gotten to the races introduced in Society/Adventure Paths yet for vital statistics. Might show up in Alien Archive 3.


Balance being the issue I might suggest homebrewing a more expensive version of Keen, say a +3 Greater Keen ability that stacks with improved crit, or a "Keen Critial" feat that requires improved crit, critical focus, and a suitably high bab, to get them to stack.


You have dedicated yourself to the mastery of a weapon, regardless of it's form.

Prerequisites: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Int 17, Knowledge(arcana) 15 Ranks

Benefit: When wielding a weapon with the Transformative or Greater Transformative magical weapon properties, you are proficient with the weapon regardless of what form it takes, even if it is an exotic weapon you would not normally be proficient in. Any feats you have that apply to a specific weapon type (example: Improved Critical, Weapon Focus) can be applied to the weapon regardless of form, unless that weapon type wouldn't qualify normally(You cannot apply the benefits of Dervish Dance to any weapon but a scimitar, you cannot apply the benefits of Tripping Staff to any weapon but a quarter staff, etc)

Furthermore, if you have the Weapon Training & Advanced Weapon Training or Sacred Weapon class features, you can apply their benefit to the weapon, regardless of what form it takes.


FriarZero wrote:
Quote:
natives of hyperspace
Hyperspace? What's that? Is it like the Drift?

My guess would be that it's referring to the Drift, yeah. But for someone who isn't familiar with the setting, they'd have no idea what "the Drift" is so rather than thinking these are inhabitants of the Tokyo street racing scene, they use the term hyperspace which is an established sci fi term that most people have at least a vague idea of.


Azelator Ereus wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
If Paizo can adapt & borrow so much from Lovecraft's work without leaning hard into that man's well documented racism, I think they can thread this needle.
If Reptoids are a undeniable signifier of a certain variety of antisemetism then surely Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep (in fact ALL eldritch horror... bye bye Garthulu...) signify frantic anglo-centric xenophobia. I can't follow that logic.

They included deep one hybrids without making them explicitly or implicitly a play on fears regarding interracial mixing, would be the more specific comparison.

I'm not saying that the problematic issues surrounding the reptoids aren't worth some discussion - honestly I've found this thread somewhat educational as while I've known that certain antisemitic groups have latched onto the conspiracy theory as code, I'd always heard that Icke himself was less an antisemite himself and more a lunatic who genuinely, literally believed in extra-dimensional lizard people and just gave talks to white supremacist groups because he was desperate to get the word out that he'd talk to whoever listened to him and was genuinely confused that they thought he was talking about the Jews.

But, no, this thread and how strongly people feel about it did get me looking into it a bit more.

But, my genuine point is this; you have an idea that has problematic origins, or even if not origins, was hijacked by a problematic element and carries those connotations, but despite that it has genuine potential to tell an interesting narrative if those connotations are removed from the equation. Should writers be allowed to take that chance or should any material that's tainted with that be written off as poisoned?


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If Paizo can adapt & borrow so much from Lovecraft's work without leaning hard into that man's well documented racism, I think they can thread this needle.


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Personally I'm kind of split on the uplifted animal issue because on the one hand, I want to see more in the way of alien races in the vein of anassanoi, damai, kasatha, kish, lashunta, phentomites, and ryphorians. I find these kind of aliens - "humanoid, but..." more interesting than uplifted animals, and I wouldn't want Paizo to just fall on uplifted animals as a crutch given how easy that would be, as you have an endless list of creatures that you can just go "that, but science made it smart".

On the other hand, I'm curious to see a couple of things. Uplifted animals that aren't based on real world animals in the setting; an uplifted mountain eel or uplifted renkroda.

And I'd be interested in seeing uplifted animals that overlap with existing races that just coincidentally happen to look like animals. Like wo would an uplifted big cat(tiger, lion, leopard, whatever) get along with a pathra? How would an uplifted wolf get along with a vlaka? How would an uplifted bull get along with a nuar? Functionally what would be the differences between them? A lot of people would probably, justifiably, see that as redundant and that if you wanted to play an uplifted big cat/wolf/bovine, you can just play one of those races and reflavor it, but I think if you're gonna try and have it both ways you need to explore that concept a little.

Also, personally, I really want to see uplifted gorillas, chimps, and orangutans along with possibly uplifted gigantopithecus & megaprimatus to go full on Planet of the Apes meets Kong. But that's just me.


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I'm in favor of there being a playable troll or troll-kin/troll-like race, myself.


Questionmarks. Three questionmarks.


I might have gone with a hylki/akitonian human as a compromise position.


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I for one am interested in seeing the Wild Hunt... IN SPACE!.

Also vilderavn.


David knott 242 wrote:
Kadasbrass Loreweaver wrote:
So... the only news from Paizocon for Starfinder is Otterfolk? I do wonder if these otters have a highly sophisticated lottery system to determine their planetary leadership as most space fairing otters have been shown to lean towards in other galaxies far, far, away.

They did announce the next adventure path -- something about a threefold conspiracy involving Grays, Reptoids, and ?

I'd guess the brain parasite aliens since those are the other ones that get mentioned whenever the Unseen come up.


Pogiforce wrote:
Starfinder devs are furries confirmed?

I mean you say that as if the maraquoi, nuar, pathra, winterborn ryphorians, uplifted bears, vlaka, and ysoki, along with a dozen or so others, give or take, hadn't already confirmed it.

Which personally I'm not down with but so long as the otterfolk are more otter and less folk to fill that Rocket Racoon, funny in it's absurdity, talking space animal nice, I'm okay with.


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EltonJ wrote:

Platyparians can lick my skin.

Why you gotta hate?


In the First World.


What about the platypus people?


David knott 242 wrote:
Nerdy Canuck wrote:
I mean, you could do something like having racial "templates" for being half-something; such that you put two templates together to determine the racial traits of, say, a half-strix half-pahtra.

In theory, PF1 covered that with the Racial Heritage and Planar Heritage feats. While the folks at Paizo repeatedly denied the existence of half-dwarves, for example, you could easily make one by creating a human character with the Racial Heritage (Dwarf) feat as his bonus feat.

#JusticeForMuls


Isn't there something about a massive gash on Apostae that wasn't there pre-gap and can be dated, best as anyone can figure out, to being 800-1200 years old? I may or may not be pulling those numbers out of thin air.


It's explicitly mentioned in regards to certain races that were primarily concentrated on golarion have had their populations drastically cut due to the planet's disappearance, so if they were teleported off - of which there is no indication whatsoever - it wasn't to other planets in the pact worlds system at least.

The line from the gods that have been communed with about Golarion is that it's safe, intact, unreachable, but it's population is continuing to live there in relative peace.

The only question is whether or not one believes that.


Voyd211 wrote:
The talk about romance makes me wonder what races are biologically-compatible enough to have children. It's pretty much a given that humans can have kids with elves, orcs, half-elves, half-orcs, planar scions of their own or the mentioned races, and hags/changelings; I also know that some half-elves are half-ryphorian instead of half-human. But what about lashuntas, astrazoans, borais strix, reptoids, verthani, damais, and other very humanlike (or shapechanging into such) races? Can they have kids with each other?

I know that Paizo's offical philosophy on the subject is keeping crossbreed races to a bare minimum; it's effectively just half-elves & half-orcs &, more disturbingly, ogrekin, with others mixings being more magical in nature, either with supernatural creatures such as hags, lycanthropes, vampires, and deep ones, or full on outsiders, and with the latter, Paizo tries to downplay the notion of any actual sex taking place and it being more the result of magical influence. Same goes for dragons.

Oh, and samsaran's can reproduce with humans but again it's one of those, either it's a samsaran or a human, not a mix of the two, things.

James Jacobs, at least, has claimed that it's because they want to keep the main half-breed races special. I imagine that at least part of it is so that every time they come up with a new race they don't have to come up with two new races to cover the halfbreed aspect.

Now, Jacobs isn't heavily involved in the starfinder side of things which may be why they expanded the elven crossbreeding to ryphorians, but I still don't see it being something they massively shift gears on, arbitrary as a lot of it is gonna be.


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In regards to grays, and reptoids for that matter, I wouldn't allow a player to bring one to the table and have it be just another character that's treated remotely normally; these races aren't integrated members of society, they're basically cryptids. They're outside infiltrators that few people know about and fewer people believe are real.

If a player were to say to me they wanted to play one, or if I were to come to a dm wanting to play one, we'd need to work together to work out what their deal was. Are the grays actually working towards some larger goal or are they just f'ing with people for their own amusement? Is there a single overarching faction that the reptoids answer to or are there several independent groups of them that may be working at cross purposes? Is the gray player a rogue agent or a double agent?

I'd need to answer these questions & more, and work from there. Do the other players know what a gray is? Do they believe they exist? Is their new crew member just a weird looking unidentified alien? If they know what he is, do they think he's gone rogue or are they okay working with him towards some potentially terrible goal?

In regards to Achaekek; ancient Azlant did worship him as a god of monsters & natural disasters, not assassins, which would suggest that if his worship continues under the Star Empire, it's through that lens, which would mean that they probably don't have their own red mantis death squads. Having said that, "god of monsters & natural disasters" does make the whole, "was ancient Golarion visited by the Swam" angle sound half-way plausible.

In regards to Solarions; Dead Suns also mentions that elves on Castrovel have ancient solarion traditions predating Kasatha arrival to the system, so there's elves & half-elves. I believe there's artwork of skittermander solarions that's been printed, and if skittermanders can do it, anyone can.

In regards to interspecies romance; given the existance of astrazoans, endiffians, and reptoids, more frequently than people probably realize.


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Kyokors hate everything. Cities are a thing. What's more, cities are a thing in which other things are very densely packed.


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Akiton, Verces, Triaxus would be my top three picks.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:


No, if you're basing any animal-based alien race on Benedict Cumberbatch, it has to be penguins.
Cumberbundians?

Nah, they'd be called pinglings. Or pingwings.


Neuromancer wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I encourage this.

But I also encourage that the Platyparians and Otterfolk be at war to determine who is the supreme space water mammalian entity in the galaxy!

Can we also have the "Heck Knights"

And who ever does the iconic for otterfolk has to base them on Benedict Cumberbatch.

No, if you're basing any animal-based alien race on Benedict Cumberbatch, it has to be penguins.


thecursor wrote:
FormerFiend wrote:
So let me get this straight; the otterfolk would be regular otters that have been uplifted by science, ala uplifted bear, and the platyparians would bean alien race that happens to resemble platapi, ala pahtra& vlaka?

That's sort of what some of us gleaned from their conversation, yes.

Acceptable.

Honestly I've kinda been curious as to how uplifted animals and coincidentally animal like aliens view each other, and if one's ever mistaken for the other by other aliens. So I wouldn't mind that seeing that dynamic played into a rivalry/epic space war between the otterfolk & the platyparians.

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