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Just a heads up...
All Pathfinder adventure paths are geared for 4 PCs using a 15 point stat build. It seems most people on these boards use a 20 point build, with some even higher. This will derail difficulty some, even more if you have a party larger than 4 characters.
So, if you use a 20+ point build and have over 4 PCs, you'll have to tinker some to keep up the challenge factor or your players will steamroll through anything you run.
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err.... just make the fights more challenging.
I haven't played but one AP (Carrion Crown), but I try to read through reviews when possible. I don't know that any of the APs are significantly more difficult than the others with the possible exception of Wrath of the Righteous if you disallow PCs to take mythic ranks or powers. Even then, if your players are decent optimizers it may not be a true challenge.
I will say that our party of 6 players with 25-point builds found certain parts of Carrion Crown more challenging than others, but there were plenty of parts we steamrolled.
Skull and Shackles and Hell's Vengeance are both pretty difficult. :-)
How far into the campaign is your group? How many player characters? Anyone have Leadership? Anyone or especially several someones spamming summons?
I'm not familiar with the updated version of RotRL. If you're running the original AP the bad guys will suffer for it if the PCs have access to all of the shiny new crunch-rules released in the past decade.
If you're cool with non-Paizo campaigns, there's Rappan Athuk, a campaign sized megadungeon famed for its danger, or The Slumbering Tsar Saga from the same company.
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Free time is scarce.
luckily someone else already did all the work, just copy paste
err.... just make the fights more challenging.I could. But that is just the thing I want to avoid. Free time is scarce.
You're already adding +2 to everything's stats (which should boost all their checks, AC, damage, etc) by +1. That's about half the Advanced template. You could, instead, just go with the advanced template for everything and maybe boost the hit points of the enemies to closer to max rather than average. Those are pretty easy to do, particularly with the Simple Advanced Template (see your Bestiary for details).
You complain about them killing the BBEGs in 2 rounds. This can often be alleviated by adding mooks, which should at least slow the PCs down enough for the BBEG to do its thing even if they don't achieve anything else themselves. And the monster tactics listed may not be the best.
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err.... just make the fights more challenging.I could. But that is just the thing I want to avoid. Free time is scarce.
We used a 25 pt. build, but I add +2 on all abilities of enemies.
Seems like you're already doing the thing you wanted to avoid, just so your players can have high numbers on their character sheets. 15 point buy would make things much easier for you...
If you've identified the problem, you can target that problem. In this case it sounds like martial damage (especially ranged damage) is so high that the enemies don't get a chance to fight back. So you can fix that fairly easily by increasing enemy HP by 50%, or increasing their AC by 4, or by having more conditions that make things hard for archers (strong wind, etc), or increasing the number of enemies. Or some combination of the above.
I wouldn't say Skull and Shackles is difficult. Sure there are a lot of underwater encounters but the PCs have good reasons to be prepared for them. There are a few things that can be a bit complicated (the last part of the first book, the first one of the Island of the Empty Eyes, The Shrouded Queen) but aside from that my players found it extremely easy.
Reign of Winter (specifically the first and fifth book) has pretty challenging encounters, specially if you apply the weather rules as written.
I have also played CoCT and also had some pretty hard stuff but wasn't so difficult overall. I played it before it was adapted to PF, though.
I cannot say for other APs.
I'd say it is impossible to calculate
If you have the wrong party mix it's a challenge
If you flub the various mini games in the adventures it's a challenge
So if you mess up research, caravan, kingdom, militia etc rolls it can all go downhill
If you have unread with an evil party most journey AP become easy
A few proposals to increase difficulty, without too much effort:
1) Add +2 to any d20 roll and to AC (and CMD, if relevant).
2) Double the amount of minions.
3) Place foes in a smart way - choke points, difficult terrain and hiding can all work in their favor.
Introduce these changes slowly and see how it works out - applying all three at once might result in a TPK.
Probably the best way to make experienced players sweat is: Surprise them. Appearantly mundane creatures which suddenly have devastating powers, harmless environment turning against them or NPCs coming up with an elaborate intrigue - it all boils down to catching players on the wrong foot.
That needs more effort than the proposals above, though. You can add creatures from the bestiaries that make sense for the encounter - but are significantly different from the others. For example a pet magical beast for the caster. Further there are numerous templates to make encounters unique. And finally, sometimes you can simply change foes' appearance so they have to figure out what they face.
I'd say it is impossible to calculate
If you have the wrong party mix it's a challenge
If you flub the various mini games in the adventures it's a challengeSo if you mess up research, caravan, kingdom, militia etc rolls it can all go downhill
If you have unread with an evil party most journey AP become easy
My players loved the mini games and the skill encounters so they made their characters to be able to do them.
They were a Shawbuckler, a Bard and a Sorcerer, with a cleric as a NPC to fill the last place.
And they were CN, but as it usually happens with my players, they had their own moral codes... so they usually solved problems in the most difficult way because they didn't want to go murder hobo (well...maybe they drugged a cyclops and put nettles inside his pants... maybe xD).
Thanks for the advice and opinions!
How far into the campaign is your group? How many player characters? Anyone have Leadership? Anyone or especially several someones spamming summons?
I'm not familiar with the updated version of RotRL. If you're running the original AP the bad guys will suffer for it if the PCs have access to all of the shiny new crunch-rules released in the past decade.
** spoiler omitted **
We are 4 characters, no leadership, one full leveled animal companion, usually no summons. Main problem is in my opinion the archer ranger (favored enemies giants 4, humans 4, dragons 2).
Add in non-giant mooks to give the ranger an issue...
And there should be intelligent enemies that know about him so use spells (or recreate spells) such as protection from arrows and wind wall and things like that
You could also try draining the character's ability scores down to a more reasonable point buy in some way? Or negative levels. That way you adjust them rather than having to adjust all the encounters
But is sounds like 25 point buy (and presumably clever players) is the problem.
I know I played RotR under-geared with either 15 or 20 point buy and lost a character in book 1 and the party had a TPK against the ridiculously overpowered Lamia on the top of the tower (book 2 I think).
So I don't think RoTR is considered easy. That said we played original and the GM was adapting to PF and may have done it wrong.
Keep in mind that in the APs, the vast majority of battles are there solely to drain a few resources before the final BBEG battle. They are expected to be cake-walks. But they will burn a few spells, abilities, and potions, making the final battle tougher.
Yeah, I know.
We used a 25 pt. build, but I add +2 on all abilities of enemies. The group consists of four PCs.
So that should not be the reason for the low challenge.
So - which APs are more difficult in your eyes?
This is a HUGE reason for low challenge. Paizo uses 15 pb and TERRIBLY optimized npcs, both as supposed heroes (iconics) and enemies.
It is based on a party of Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard being able to pull through. 2 out of those are not good classes without a tonne of books. A medium optimised PC outclasses these, meaning the challenges in the APs will be easier.
That said, many APs have notorious "Tpk here" moments, as seen in obituary threads. Usually has to do with circumstances/environment/awareness rather than straight CR stuff. These are point things and not the norm.
Most casters in the APs have lukewarm spell selections and are often alone versus a whole party. That isnt a CR encounter, it's a free dead mage buffet.
My group runs 25 point buy as a matter of course and in general the feeling at times is that the APs have enough tough encounters that they feel their 25pb wasn't enough.
Personally, I'm thinking of using Way of the Wicked's char-gen method in future APs. Before race is selected, pick one that is an 18, pick your dump stat that is an 8. The other four in order are rolled (1d10+7). Your dice could hose you ... or they could bless you. Either which way it sounds like a lot of fun waiting to happen.
Yeah, I know.
We used a 25 pt. build, but I add +2 on all abilities of enemies. The group consists of four PCs.
So that should not be the reason for the low challenge.
So - which APs are more difficult in your eyes?
The APs where the PCs are built within the guidelines. So 15 point buy, 4 PCs, and keep an eye to WBL. We use 15 point buys and I often have to upgrade the NPCs anyways, as most of them are terribly unoptimized (a requirement for APs, which are also played by casual groups of low experience players). I give the advanced template to most big enemies, even with players having 15 point buys, and that's not enough. Tactics and spells often work better than straight up bonuses for NPCs, tho. Bosses with Mirror Image, Displacement, incorporeal, inmunities, great mobility, crowd control, and nearly untouchable AC work better than bosses with huge HP. Adding «lair» elements, such as deeper darkness, fogs, difficult terrain, unhallow effects, or haunts or traps that affect the PC nut not the NPC also help, so does adding filler mooks that aren't really a threat but annoy, fill the battlefield, soak up damage, and delay the PCs. Good spying will help too, the BBEG being ablw to prebuff, ambush, or attack the PC in the middle of another combat raises the challenge a lot.
Also, older APs NPCs don't have access to modern material, and aren't built with those in mind. So often a Witch, Gunslinger or Psychyc will destroy APs built before those rules were available.
Runelords was pretty challenging for us with a 15 pt buy, staying 1-2 levels behind the recommended progression, and increased monster hp (max I think). Also, unless you are playing the new RotRL hardcover, then you are playing a 3.5 version.
If you want to improve your current situation, you could hold them back a few levels if you aren't using XP (as it is already too late to fix the point buy) and also go max hp on monsters.
A +2 to monster stats does not balance out a 25 pt buy, especially with min/maxing stats.
To answer your question:
All the APs are written the same way: 15 pt buy, 4 players, encounters matching suggested party level. No AP is really any more or less challenging just because of the story. AP difficulty is going to be decided by combination of PC classes, how close to the 15pt buy / 4 players, how close to expected party level, gear, and player experience.
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Way of the Wicked is a third party AP and it's focused around playing evil characters but... the first book at least is pretty difficult. Three out of the four times I've run it it's been a TPK (the first book).
As far as Paizo APs go the most difficult stuff I've run both for me as a DM and the players was the first book of Reign of Winter. If you decide to try it I highly recommend taking notes and having a quick reference handy for the cold weather rules and the fatigue and exhaustion conditions.
I was a player in the first book of Iron Gods and pre-adamantine weapon fighting of robots was murder... but that might just have been the DM.
As far as later books of APs besides the aforementioned book 5 of Reign of Winter I don't see anything causing high level characters too much trouble once they get spells like teleport.
Maybe jump on the Starfinder train and embrace a fresh paired down system that has less options for your players to break the system.
That's what I'm gunning for eventually.
This is the issue I had in Rise of the Runelords and it took a bit of time for me to be able to get the balance about right. I went the advanced template route, but this usually caused 3/4 BAB classes to struggle, saves to succeed more often than they should and it gives an artificial difficulty for these monsters, sometimes simply putting them out of reach of players at certain levels and creating long drawn out fights.
It was much easier to balance out Curse of the Crimson Throne and Second Darkness since I rewrote most of the encounters when converting them but, Reign of Winter with 5 players was going to create challenges.
My players have a significant amount of game mastery and we use Dreamscarred Press materials (It is powerful, but its so well written and designed we just can't help ourselves.). The best method is to shuffle your NPCs among the dungeon, action economy is the best way to balance for better and more numerous groups, especially in boss fights. Single NPC fights are reserved for very powerful monsters and I never leave a boss fight with just a single NPC. Throwing in a handful of mooks gives a distraction for the players and allows your boss some breathing room to do his thing (sometimes!) Don't be afraid to make changes mid-game based on what the parties doing, have NPCs run from fights and group with others. Have roaming guards in hallways walk in behind if the PCs don't make pains to clear everything before engaging high profile targets.
The first thing you need to do is go down to 15 Point-Buy though.
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Just a heads up...
All Pathfinder adventure paths are geared for 4 PCs using a 15 point stat build. It seems most people on these boards use a 20 point build, with some even higher. This will derail difficulty some, even more if you have a party larger than 4 characters.
So, if you use a 20+ point build and have over 4 PCs, you'll have to tinker some to keep up the challenge factor or your players will steamroll through anything you run.
In addition to the lower point buy, I like to impose a soft ban on material from sourcebooks that postdate the AP I'm running. The AP team couldn't have taken such options into account when designing the AP, so I run it through some additional review to make sure it doesn't break anything.
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So the classic "Eh, I'll just ignore 15 point buy, it'll be okay!" problem.
Either way, if you want challenging AP, the right answer is Iron Gods. I managed to kickass of six players for a while without changing absolutely anything and party is still getting ass kicked around in fourth book. They have been too paranoid to actually die, but they don't get things done easily or without damage.
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Age of Worms(Dungeon Magazine) AP. (PDF's) is 3.5 but nasty. I say that with high praise.
Yeah, no AP comes close to Age of Worms. You could have a fifty-point buy and still get wiped pretty easily.
Third for AoW. As tough as Shackled City and Savage Tide were, they don't feature the outright buggery of AoW. Good times. :)
Anyone else notice that 'Book 2s' are always really difficult (Skinsaw Murders, Seven Days to the Grave, House of the Beast, Children of the Void, The Sixfold Trial, Rivers Run Red, Racing to Ruin, Trial of the Beast... these all have spots where parties TPKd) and then book 3 goes really easy?
Book 3s are typically facing the wrath of characters packing 4th and 5th level spells, which is a significant improvement over the 6th level and lower characters typical of books 1 and 2.
Anyone else notice that 'Book 2s' are always really difficult (Skinsaw Murders, Seven Days to the Grave, House of the Beast, Children of the Void, The Sixfold Trial, Rivers Run Red, Racing to Ruin, Trial of the Beast... these all have spots where parties TPKd) and then book 3 goes really easy?
No.
In addition to the lower point buy, I like to impose a soft ban on material from sourcebooks that postdate the AP I'm running. The AP team couldn't have taken such options into account when designing the AP, so I run it through some additional review to make sure it doesn't break anything.Just a heads up...
All Pathfinder adventure paths are geared for 4 PCs using a 15 point stat build. It seems most people on these boards use a 20 point build, with some even higher. This will derail difficulty some, even more if you have a party larger than 4 characters.
So, if you use a 20+ point build and have over 4 PCs, you'll have to tinker some to keep up the challenge factor or your players will steamroll through anything you run.
I can agree with this. Personally from reading the forums here, quite a few of the classes in later books seem unbalanced. This always seems to be a trend in every edition from splat books in general though.
A few of the classes seem kind of okay (like Magus and the Unchained Rogue), but I'd have to reread them if a player expressed interest rather than dismiss it.In my most humble of opinions, the OP will always have issues by choosing to ignore the 15 pb and not putting in an obscene amount of work retooling each encounter.
Anyone else notice that 'Book 2s' are always really difficult (Skinsaw Murders, Seven Days to the Grave, House of the Beast, Children of the Void, The Sixfold Trial, Rivers Run Red, Racing to Ruin, Trial of the Beast... these all have spots where parties TPKd) and then book 3 goes really easy?
With my groups, it's always been the first chapter of any AP. Low hp adventurers can be one shot with unlucky rolls. Thank god for my GM screen or I'd have a lot more dead PC blood on my hands.
The differences between 15, 20 and 25 point-buys are minute. My group(s) have consistently found this to be true across multiple Pathfinder campaigns/APs. So we go with what's the most fun: 25 pb. Excessive loot awards are far more often the culprit than the paltry ability score differences between the three ability score point buy spreads, in my experience.
I agree. There are only a few extra +1s between 15 and 25. Compare that to the advanced template, which is only +1 CR, but gives +4 to every stat and +2 to natural AC.
APs are filled with loot and unoptimized tactics. They also have numerous "filler" encounters that parties will breeze through before the end of each section.