I am trying to figure out what sort of character could get the most practical benefit from Varisian Dancing Scarves in Adventurer's Armory 2. They are listed as light armor with no ACP, max Dex, or arcane spell failure risk. They provide an AC bonus to the wearer of 2 + enhancement bonus, but only to a character who has moved at least 10 feet since the beginning of his turn.
A ranged character would lose his iterative attacks. A melee character would need Vital Strike or some similar ability to pool his attacks so that he can move without losing out on potential damage -- but even then he could lose all protection once multiple enemies threaten him. A spellcaster would need to avoid spells with full round casting times.
So -- can anyone come up with ideas for a character who would actually want to wear Varisian Dancing Scarves?
A rogue with the scout archetype is probably going to be on the move anyway. ^_^
Scout rogues might like them.
If there's such a thing as a dex-based character built around overrun it could work.
Magus using Bladed Dash can put this to a LOT of good. Can you make a Varisian Dancing Scarf double-plated?
Outslug style seems perfect, with 10' steps. Do they count as armor for monks? If not it would be perfect for flying kick unmonks as well.
Outslug Sprint looks like exactly what is needed, as it lets you move 10 feet with a "5 foot step".
Unfortunately, Varisian Dancing Scarves are a type of light armor, so they are useless to monks. There is no explicit statement to the contrary in the actual item description.
How fast can you get Outslug Sprint active? The Lunge Prereq is a bit of an issue, so we're looking at level 8 or something.
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The scout rogue archetype gets sneak attack after a 10ft move, doesn't it?
Also, I think there's a feat, Wind Stance maybe, that gives a miss chance to ranged attacks if you move at least 10 feet.
Edit: Just saw that scout had already been mentioned. :P
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How fast can you get Outslug Sprint active? The Lunge Prereq is a bit of an issue, so we're looking at level 8 or something.
Yeah, 8th level as a fighter is the earliest, or 9th as a warpriest, ranger, or Slayer. Lunge is the gateway, and you need two feats after lunge. Ranger/Slayer can pick up lunge with the faithful combat style if they worship cayden or gozreh.
I am going to use with character that has spring attack, always move 10ft at the being of my attack so will be a great addition.
I am trying to figure out what sort of character could get the most practical benefit from Varisian Dancing Scarves in Adventurer's Armory 2. They are listed as light armor with no ACP, max Dex, or arcane spell failure risk. They provide an AC bonus to the wearer of 2 + enhancement bonus, but only to a character who has moved at least 10 feet since the beginning of his turn.
A ranged character would lose his iterative attacks. A melee character would need Vital Strike or some similar ability to pool his attacks so that he can move without losing out on potential damage -- but even then he could lose all protection once multiple enemies threaten him. A spellcaster would need to avoid spells with full round casting times.
So -- can anyone come up with ideas for a character who would actually want to wear Varisian Dancing Scarves?
How about a normal wizard/sorcerer/witch? No ACP/arcane spell failure risk means no minuses to wear and casting is normally a standard so giving up a move action to gain 2 + enhancement bonus AC doesn't sound like a bad deal. Also add eldritch scoundrel to the list.
Pouncing characters.
I wonder if you have to move yourself or if a mount moving you would be sufficient? Full round casting times would stop being a problem, and high-dex archers would probably like them too. For melee types ride-by attack exists, as does mounted skirmisher.
I wonder if you have to move yourself or if a mount moving you would be sufficient?
Hmm. I'm not 100% sure.
That said, I based it on the scout rogue archetype (and used similar language), so if it works with that, I imagine it'll work with the scarves. ^_^
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It does, definitely. I have a build in mind that I think will make pretty much exclusive use of the scarf at about 8th.
For flavor alone, a kapenia dancer would love these.
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For flavor alone, a kapenia dancer would love these.
For flavor, yes. For overall usefulness, not as much. I have a PFS Kapenia Dancer and was a little disappointed I couldn't make better use of this item (assuming it ends up legal). The issue is that a Kapenia Dancer is still a magus. She still wants to use Spell Combat. On the rounds you use bladed dash, the scarves will be helpful. But the majority of the time you're better off with a haramaki. +1 AC all the time vs. +2 only when you move. Or just UMD a wand of Mage Armor. I know since the armored kilt, Paizo seems to have discouraged armor that stacks. But working like the armored kilt, adding their armor bonus on top of whatever armor you have (only when you move) would have been fantastic. I could see how they would become standard issue items very quickly, though.
None of that's the fault of this item. That's more an issue with all of the Pathfinder "dancer" archetypes not actually encouraging movement of any kind. Kapenia Dancer, Dervish Dancer, etc. none of them give any benefit for actually moving, and standing still for full attacks is still encouraged.
But it sounds like the item was intended for Scout Rogues, and for them it's great. Especially if they also have Wizard or Sorcerer levels.
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One possible use for these (that did not exist when this thread was created) is on a Kineticist who has the "Mobile Gathering" feat (allows you to move half your speed while gathering power.) Since a Kineticist generally prefers to spend their move action gathering power every round, the "got to move 2 squares" part is unlikely to be a problem and you will appreciate the "no max dex" when you get up there in level.
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I didn't know about that feat. Interesting. I could see it.
Responding to a few posts up, I think Brawler should be able to get Outslug Sprint at 6th. They have bonus feats at 2nd and 5th, they don't need Combat Expertise to take the style, they have full BAB, and they can pick up two feats with Martial Flexibility as a move action at 6th. So the minimum they would need is Weapon Focus, Outslug Style, and Lunge at 6th. At that point they could Move action Martial Flexibility for Outslug Weave and Sprint, swift action enter Outslug Style, 10-foot step, Standard action attack.
Mind you, a brawler who wanted armor with no max dex at 6th level wouldn't hit very hard unless they also had dex to damage. They'd also need weapon finesse and slashing grace to make that work. Which would have to be with the klar unless they spend a feat on EWP, or on tiger style or something - the klar is the only martial slashing weapon in the close group. Also, they can't take lunge as a permanent feat until 7th level, they don't get a bonus one at 6th which is the earliest they qualify for it. One more level isn't a lot but it could make a difference.
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Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists for dex to damage. 4,000 gold, can afford it around 4th or 5th level. Martial Flexibikity for Slashing Grace in the meantime.
Yeah, you're right about Lunge. They'd have to use retraining to make it work (which a fighter could do, also). Or dip another class so that their 5th level bonus feat hit at 6th level.
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My dream is to one day have enough of this stuff in print that it becomes an option - maybe not an optimal one, but at least a semi-viable one. ^_^
For flavor alone, a kapenia dancer would love these.For flavor, yes. For overall usefulness, not as much. I have a PFS Kapenia Dancer and was a little disappointed I couldn't make better use of this item (assuming it ends up legal). The issue is that a Kapenia Dancer is still a magus. She still wants to use Spell Combat. On the rounds you use bladed dash, the scarves will be helpful. But the majority of the time you're better off with a haramaki. +1 AC all the time vs. +2 only when you move. Or just UMD a wand of Mage Armor. I know since the armored kilt, Paizo seems to have discouraged armor that stacks. But working like the armored kilt, adding their armor bonus on top of whatever armor you have (only when you move) would have been fantastic. I could see how they would become standard issue items very quickly, though.
None of that's the fault of this item. That's more an issue with all of the Pathfinder "dancer" archetypes not actually encouraging movement of any kind. Kapenia Dancer, Dervish Dancer, etc. none of them give any benefit for actually moving, and standing still for full attacks is still encouraged.
But it sounds like the item was intended for Scout Rogues, and for them it's great. Especially if they also have Wizard or Sorcerer levels.
I also have a kapenia dancer, and honestly, with the reduced spells/level, she doesn't actually spend a ton of time in spell combat - I find she gets more use out of multi-touch spells, so it might work out okay for her.
Ghost of Pathfinder Past, arise!
Glad to see people mentioned Scout Rogue and Outslug Style, but I see that Circling Mongoose is missing. I was thinking the same thing, but adding dips in Snakebite Striker Brawler and Free-Style Fighter to make it work, with the addition of Panther Style and eventually Outslug Style -- but before Outslug Style comes Circling Mongoose. Circling Mongoose uses your movement for offense, which combines perfectly with your using movement for defense, and while Outslug Style doesn't directly synergize with this, it helps you better get into a position to start it or get away from something that might wreak serious vengeance on you for circling them and/or from their allies, that might have the same idea. Meanwhile, Panther Style (just need the first feat in the chain) lets you retaliate against anybody who AoOs you while you move, although with your high Acrobatics their chances of being able to fire off an AoO are reduced in the first place. This build also gives you the option to KO opponents instead of killing them, although if you really want to do that a lot, you'll need to rearrange things to insert Sap Adept and Sap Master.
Human Scout Unchained Rogue(*)/Free-Style Fighter/Snakebite Striker Brawler
(*)In a campaign with a LOT of big opponents it might be worthwhile to choose Vexing Dodger instead; both of these trade out Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, which hurts, but with your Fighter and Brawler dips, Improved Uncanny Dodge is going to be painfully under-leveled anyway
Alternate Racial Traits: None if 15 point buy, or Focused Study if 20 Point Buy (Skill Focus on Acrobatics at level 01, on Escape Artist at level 08, and on Stealth at level 16)
Traits: Campaign, Latent Psion (boost Save against Mind-Affecting phenomena)
15 point buy: Str 10, Dex (+2) 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 13 (needed to qualify for Panther Style), Charisma 10 (can't afford to pump but don't want to dump); increase Wisdom at level 4 and Dexterity at all other 4n levels
20 point buy: Str 10, Dex (+2) 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14 (13 needed to qualify for Panther Style), Charisma 10 (can't afford to pump but don't want to dump); increase Dexterity at all 4n levels
Favored Class Bonus: Rogue levels: All goes to skill points
Key Skills (keep maxed as much as possible): Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Knowledge (Local), Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device (hence the need for mildly pumping Intelligence and taking the Cunning feat if on 15 point buy)
Key Skill subset that can afford to fall behind temporarily during the Brawler and Fighter levels: Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand
Low-Investment Skills: Appraise, Climb, Swim, and whatever you want for background and/or flavor -- the latter should probably should include Perform (Dance) (unfortunately, I know of no way to get Perform (Dance) to substitute for Acrobatics)
01: Rogue 01/Fighter -/Brawler -: (SnkAtk 1d6), Toughness (from CharLvl), Weapon Finesse (from Rogue Finesse Training), Cunning (Human Bonus feat, only if on 15 point buy); Strategy = use 5 foot steps (preferred) or moves to reposition yourself to keep your Dancing Scarves active (although you probably won't be able to get them until level 2), and always remember your Acrobatics checks to avoid Attacks of Opportunity, while making an Attack of Opportunity yourself to punish opponents flanked by your allies
02: Rogue 01/Fighter 1/Brawler -: (SnkAtk 1d6), (Free-Style Fighter gives back a bit of Martial Flexibility that Snakebite Striker Brawler trades out -- can use some of this to give you the next feat you were going to get in the build, but save some in case of unexpected situations)
03: Rogue 01/Fighter 1/Brawler 1: (SnkAtk 2d6), Combat Reflexes (from CharLvl), Improved Unarmed Strike (Brawler Version); Strategy += more chances for you to make Attacks of Opportunity
04: Rogue 02/Fighter 1/Brawler 1: (SnkAtk 2d6), Improved Dirty Trick (from Underhanded Trick Rogue Talent -- by default, use this to blind opponents to make them Flat-Footed)
05: Rogue 03/Fighter 1/Brawler 1: (SnkAtk 3d6), Panther Style (from CharLvl), (Dexterity to Damage with Unarmed Strike from Rogue Finess Training); Strategy += your Attacks of Opportunity now hurt noticeably even against opponents that are not Flat-Footed or Flanked
06: Rogue 03/Fighter 1/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 3d6), Two-Weapon Fighting (Brawler's Flurry), Dodge (Brawler Bonus Combat Feat); Strategy += Use Brawler's Flurry to get multiple Sneak Attacks when you can, but not if it would stop you from moving, and not against a target that is too hard to hit
07: Rogue 03/Fighter 2/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 3d6), Mobility (from CharLvl), Spring Attack (Fighter Bonus Combat Feat); Strategy += Since Spring Attack gives you motion, now would be a good time to put on your Dancing Scarves if you didn't already do so earlier (you can even use some of your Martial Flexibility to practice Circling Mongoose as described in the next level)
08: Rogue 04/Fighter 2/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 3d6), Circling Mongoose (Rogue Talent Combat Trick); Strategy += Use Circling Mongoose as much as possible to keep you in motion and give you multiple Sneak Attacks at the same time, and your primary target is also easier to hit because you are your own flanking partner
09: Rogue 05/Fighter 2/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 4d6), Lunge (from CharLvl) -- use this sparingly for now (due to the AC penalty)
10: Rogue 06/Fighter 2/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 4d6), Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) (from Rogue Talent Weapon Training)
11: Rogue 06/Fighter 3/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 4d6), Outslug Style (from CharLvl, and FreeStyle Fighter 3 lets you use this at the same time as Panther Style)
12: Rogue 06/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 4d6), Outslug Weave (Fighter Bonus Combat Feat -- lets you go hog-wild with Lunge to get Reach)
13: Rogue 07/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 5d6), Outslug Sprint (from CharLvl)
14: Rogue 08/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 5d6), (Rogue Talent Ledge Walker -- too situational to be good by itself, but needed to get Light Walker later)
15: Rogue 09/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 6d6), Quick Dirty Trick (from CharLvl -- now you can Dirty Trick on any attack, including an AoO), (Dexterity to Damage with Wave Blade from Rogue Finess Training -- this is a blade in the Close Weapons Group, so you can still use it with Outslug Style in case you are up against something you don't want to touch with your bare hand, or if you need Piercing or Slashing damage, and you can even do a little Crit-Fishing with it)
16: Rogue 10/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 6d6), (Advanced Rogue Talent Slippery Mind -- your Will Save is getting a bit threadbare by this point, so you need this)
17: Rogue 11/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 7d6), Dirty Fighting (from CharLvl -- you don't technically have to have this since Underhanded Trick gave you Improved Dirty Trick prereq-free, but it still makes your Dirty Tricks better, and you'll need it for Greater Dirty Trick)
18: Rogue 12/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 7d6), (Advanced Rogue Talent Light Walker -- now Difficult Terrain doesn't crimp your style)
19: Rogue 13/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 8d6), Greater Dirty Trick (from CharLvl -- makes your Dirty Tricks even better)
20: Rogue 14/Fighter 4/Brawler 2: (SnkAtk 8d6), Dirty Trick Master (from Rogue Advanced Talent Feat -- makes your Dirty Tricks better yet)
^#1 is what I am thinking of, but I didn't list stat-boosting (or any other) magic items above.
Note that the above build COULD be used with more conventional light armor, but I wanted to answer the original thread's objective with a build that would work well with Dancing Scarves (even if something else would be safer).
I think the build to look for would be one that puts the insane in 'insanely high dex build', then adds a few bells and a poster of the Joker. You know, a goblin alchemist or investigator with a dex mutagen and a polymorph that lets you keep your equipment, that sort of thing. Probably with the roll with it feat. Justifying movement is easier, instead justify the item with a dex bonus that starts high and gets higher.
Rules As Written, Monks lose some key abilities when wearing any armor, even Dancing Scarves. The only partial exception I know of is Sohei (Errata says can use Flurry of Blows even in Light Armor, but still loses AC Bonus).
Just finished reading this Rogue guide -- highly recommended. Looks like my above build isn't too far off, except I need to squeeze in Canny Tumble around the time of getting Circling Mongoose. With regard to the original posting question of actually using Dancing Scarves for armor, these have some tough competition from light armor made out of Darkleaf (also mentioned in the guide), since this pushes maximum Dexterity Bonus up by 2.
They sound ideal for a Amanusya, Rakshasa.
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Just finished reading this Rogue guide -- highly recommended.
Great guide. Very in-depth and exhaustive.
I read through the different ways to secure sneak attack and stumbled upon some errors though. At Circling Mongoose they mistakenly claim that you can use a reach weapon, although the feat states that you must always be adjacent. And the whole Smoke paragraph is pretty much dismissed by the author since they don't believe that having Total Concealment makes the enemy lose their dex-to-AC.
There doesn't seem to be any way to contact the author (they don't even credit themselves) but luckily they link to a reddit thread where they're the poster, so I'll probably contact them from there if they're still active.
How about a normal wizard/sorcerer/witch? No ACP/arcane spell failure risk means no minuses to wear and casting is normally a standard so giving up a move action to gain 2 + enhancement bonus AC doesn't sound like a bad deal.
Plus: by the looks of things you can still wear a haramaki, giving you +1 AC at all times or +2 when moving.
Wearing a throwing shield is also a good combo: drop the shield as a free action (its only use is giving AC when surprised) and step away to avoid stumbling over it. So you have +2 shield AC while getting ambushed, and +2 armor AC in the first combat round.