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I am just curious. I know its in the rules.
Come to think of it, Elves have been immune to sleep for a long time. What edition does this rule come from? Why are elves immune to sleep? was it a "game balance" issue at one point in time?
Thanks
Probably because they don't need to sleep they just need to meditate?
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From what I recall they had no sleep immunity in AD&D and it was only added in 3.X where they Tranced instead of sleeping (which was removed in PF).
My guess would be it was based on Tolkien and how his elves never slept.
I don't think this is the right subforum however.
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I am just curious. I know its in the rules.
Come to think of it, Elves have been immune to sleep for a long time. What edition does this rule come from? Why are elves immune to sleep? was it a "game balance" issue at one point in time?
Thanks
Probably because they don't need to sleep they just need to meditate?
This is, alas, no longer true in Pathfinder.
OP: probably for the same reason they're immune to ghoul's paralysis?
No, but seriously, I'm not sure (though they're immune to ghoul's paralysis, if I recall correctly, because they were originally immune to it as a matter of balancing large armies of the two creatures against each other wwwwaaaaayyyyy back when, possibly in something like Chainmail; take this with a grain of salt, though, if at all, as I'm not citing sources, because I don't have them).
In AD&D they weren't immune, but they were 90% resistant to sleep and charm spells, soooo... nearly the same difference, really.
Contributor
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Probably because they don't need to sleep they just need to meditate?This is, alas, no longer true in Pathfinder.
See this post for some links. ^_^
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There was once an article in Dragon Magazine in the late 80's (during AD&D) that answered why the Elves were so resistant to sleep magic and ghoul paralysis.
The logic from that article went something like this:
Elves did not sleep per se, they used waking dreaming to refresh themselves since they were part fey so the sleep spell could not force them to do something they were technically incapable of doing.
As well since elves did not have souls but had spirit's and were so long lived, they were immune to ghoul paralysis as it was a form of terror, the terror of death washing over someone so intensely their souls would freeze in fear. Elves had nearly no fear of death in that fashion since their life span was almost 800+ years and their tie's to the fey made their view of death 'different'.
I also think that originally Gygax and Arnison linked their elves more to the Tolkein and English fey ideals and as such these immunities/resistances worked into the feel they wanted for the racecs they wanted to represent.
A lot of the original racial makeups were more about making the race 'feel' right to them than anything about game balance. Game balance was an afterthought, which is why all the non human races had such severe level advancement restrictions in AD&D.
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In my games, I have a flavor rule that elves spend most of their childhood sleeping, only staying awake for a couple hours a day. They sleep so much for so many years while growing up, that they basically don't need to do it anymore by the time they are adults.
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I am just curious. I know its in the rules.
Come to think of it, Elves have been immune to sleep for a long time. What edition does this rule come from? Why are elves immune to sleep? was it a "game balance" issue at one point in time?
Thanks
It's been a legacy part of the races since first edition. Presumably from inspirations from Tolkien. This also led to things such as trancing instead of sleeping, which was left behind with third edition.
Pathfinder Elves DO need sleep.
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There was once an article in Dragon Magazine in the late 80's (during AD&D) that answered why the Elves were so resistant to sleep magic and ghoul paralysis.
The logic from that article went something like this:
Elves did not sleep per se, they used waking dreaming to refresh themselves since they were part fey so the sleep spell could not force them to do something they were technically incapable of doing.
As well since elves did not have souls but had spirit's and were so long lived, they were immune to ghoul paralysis as it was a form of terror, the terror of death washing over someone so intensely their souls would freeze in fear. Elves had nearly no fear of death in that fashion since their life span was almost 800+ years and their tie's to the fey made their view of death 'different'.
I also think that originally Gygax and Arnison linked their elves more to the Tolkein and English fey ideals and as such these immunities/resistances worked into the feel they wanted for the racecs they wanted to represent.
A lot of the original racial makeups were more about making the race 'feel' right to them than anything about game balance. Game balance was an afterthought, which is why all the non human races had such severe level advancement restrictions in AD&D.
That explanation for ghoul immunity came well after Chainmail. Elves were an elite unit and Ghouls were a basic unit, so it was inappropriate for Ghouls to beat Elves. However, Ghasts were also elites so it was fine for Ghasts to affect Elves.
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And now with Healer's Hanbook out we have an In-Golarion reason for it.
An elven songstress serenaded Pharasma for a long ass time until she made elves immune to sleep effects.
Wat
Why would Pharasma care about a song
Why does Pharasma now have something in her lore about sleep
Why does a Neutral goddess who uses her Neutral status to not do anything for anyone ever even when it would destroy the universe doing favors for someone that bribed her
Why
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And now with Healer's Hanbook out we have an In-Golarion reason for it.
An elven songstress serenaded Pharasma for a long ass time until she made elves immune to sleep effects.
Wat
Why would Pharasma care about a song
Why does Pharasma now have something in her lore about sleep
Why does a Neutral goddess who uses her Neutral status to not do anything for anyone ever even when it would destroy the universe doing favors for someone that bribed her
Why
Your questions have been redirected to the "Gods Move In Mysterious Ways" department. The waiting list for an answer is 10 to the 60th power seconds.
That explanation for ghoul immunity came well after Chainmail. Elves were an elite unit and Ghouls were a basic unit, so it was inappropriate for Ghouls to beat Elves. However, Ghasts were also elites so it was fine for Ghasts to affect Elves.
Very right. Which I even clearly stated at the very start of my post. Congratulations on noticing that...?
Taticslion's boop link after my post has all the answers this thread is looking for, including quotes from Gygax about this exact question.
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Probably because they don't need to sleep they just need to meditate?This is, alas, no longer true in Pathfinder.
Bummer. I'd always be up for houseruling it back, though. Can be handy for the mages that so many Elves become.
On the bright side, it does make me feel more comfortable taking alternative racial features that replace Elven Immunities, since that means there's no "WTF suddenly I sleep like a mere Human???" obstacle anymore.
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Oh wow no one here knows why elves are immune to ghouls? This is like D&D race lore 101, you filthy casuals!
If by "no one" you mean "several people including the OP", then sure.
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That makes sense, in all its different explanations. Due to the history of Pathfinder's elves, I always thought of it going like this:
According to the elves, they claim they don't sleep, but they do something just like it. Also, their superior intelligence and culture of magical study helps them notice charms and compulsions, so as to better resist them.
However, their immunity to magical sleep and resistance to other enchantments comes from the fact that, unlike a couple of Golarion's other dominant races, they hadn't been bio-engineered to be easily brainwashed.
Just the whole combination of "Elves live for hundreds of years" and "Elves don't sleep" raises the question of "why don't they seem to get much more done than sleepy races who live <100 years"?
It makes much more sense for Elves to sleep like 16 hours a day, they're immune to Sleep because they get so much of it on their own that they're not tired.
I am just curious. I know its in the rules.
Come to think of it, Elves have been immune to sleep for a long time. What edition does this rule come from? Why are elves immune to sleep? was it a "game balance" issue at one point in time?
Thanks
Rip Van Winkle and other European faerie tales, which, for me, were 3rd grade literature assignments. Do they not teach these things in school anymore?
Umbrella Reaver's explanation is the correct one. Their immunity has to do with Chainmail - the precursor to Dungeon & Dragons - and is has become a matter of legacy like many other strange little game details.
I am just curious. I know its in the rules.
Come to think of it, Elves have been immune to sleep for a long time. What edition does this rule come from? Why are elves immune to sleep? was it a "game balance" issue at one point in time?
Thanks
It's been a legacy part of the races since first edition. Presumably from inspirations from Tolkien. This also led to things such as trancing instead of sleeping, which was left behind with third edition.
Pathfinder Elves DO need sleep.
You are correct that elves in Tolkein stories did not sleep but did go into a trance that mixed reality and dream (that sounds like sleep to me, but apparently it wasn't). Many elements of Tolkein were used in D&D and Pathfinder. I don't know if Pathfinder books explicitly say whether elves sleep or not, but the fact that they cannot be put to sleep by any means is supporting evidence that they do not sleep.
"Trancing" is really a Wizards of the Coast thing... and in particular, a Forgotten Realms thing. It's their intellectual property, in other words, and we actually can't really do that with our elves. Not that I'd actually want to, because that makes elves into something FAR to outlandish and unhuman for my tastes. Elves are immune to magical sleep effects because they are... it's part of their psychology and physiology. But they still have to sleep.
Elves do sleep. The idea of "trancing" or otherwise not sleeping is something TSR/WotC used for the Forgotten Realms, and as such that's part of their intellectual property for D&D. It MAY have been itself inspired by Tolkien; I'm not sure.
In either case, we don't want to use that element for elves in Pathfinder or Golarion, because we want our elves to be OUR elves. They sleep. Theyr'e aliens from another planet. They adjust over time in appearance to take on elements of their environs. They have solid colored eyes. Etc.
Furthermore, the whole idea of elves "trancing" and not sleeping always kinda bothered me, since that would imply that elves wouldn't really have bedrooms like humans, which means that all those maps of elven buildings with bedrooms are wrong, etc. AKA: The concept of a near-human race doing something as INHUMAN as not sleeping is too fundamentally weird and outlandish for my personal tastes. Elves are already pushing that envelope by living for hundreds of years.
But the MAIN reason they sleep and don't trance is the one I list in the first paragraph above—we want to avoid aping another company or another creator's vision and make it something different.
(That some elements of trancing crept into our earlier 3.5 products is , in effect, an error, and one we've been in the process of trying to fix ever since.)
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I honestly kind of wish most races had some sort of immunity/resistance to something fairly random, and leave it to players and GMs to explain why.
Gnomes are immune to Color Spray, Dwarves are immune to Charm Person, etc.
Why would elves trancing instead of sleeping preclude them from having bedrooms?
Resting and dreaming for 8 hours a night is probably still going to leave you wanting a private (or semi private) and comfortable area to do it.
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You are correct that elves in Tolkein stories did not sleep but did go into a trance that mixed reality and dream (that sounds like sleep to me, but apparently it wasn't).
Elves in Tolkien's stories could and usually did sleep normally. However, they could also use a sort of 'daydreaming' which allowed them to be physically active while resting their minds. Something like sleepwalking and lucid dreaming at the same time.
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Why would elves trancing instead of sleeping preclude them from having bedrooms?
Resting and dreaming for 8 hours a night is probably still going to leave you wanting a private (or semi private) and comfortable area to do it.
And as one might suspect from the ideology of one of their favorite deities, they would also want the bedroom for certain other common non-sleep activities . . . .
Nah, they're Elves, the first of May is a racial holiday for them anyway.
There was once an article in Dragon Magazine in the late 80's (during AD&D) that answered why the Elves were so resistant to sleep magic and ghoul paralysis.
The logic from that article went something like this:
Elves did not sleep per se, they used waking dreaming to refresh themselves since they were part fey so the sleep spell could not force them to do something they were technically incapable of doing.
As well since elves did not have souls but had spirit's and were so long lived, they were immune to ghoul paralysis as it was a form of terror, the terror of death washing over someone so intensely their souls would freeze in fear. Elves had nearly no fear of death in that fashion since their life span was almost 800+ years and their tie's to the fey made their view of death 'different'.
I also think that originally Gygax and Arnison linked their elves more to the Tolkein and English fey ideals and as such these immunities/resistances worked into the feel they wanted for the racecs they wanted to represent.
A lot of the original racial makeups were more about making the race 'feel' right to them than anything about game balance. Game balance was an afterthought, which is why all the non human races had such severe level advancement restrictions in AD&D.
this is what you were referring to I believe:
from best of dragon magazine volume 3 pg 12 which is taken from issue 60 April 1982 pg 7"One interesting difference between elves and other beings in mental capabilities is also related to their long lives. Elves do not sleep as humans, dwarves, and other races do. During the time an elf is resting, he or she is vividly reliving past memories and experiences. For all intents and purposes, memory is a separate reality, and dreams serve as a reflection upon the world of the past. This is a valuable asset to elves because of the enormous amount of information and life experiences an elf can accumulate in a few hundred to a thousand years. Elves rarely close their eyes when they "sleep" unless there is a bright light present;
thus, some have a "faraway" look in the evenings, and their companions are
misled into thinking elves don't sleep or rest at all. While resting in this fashion, an elf is still alert to some extent but not overly so, and may have mild difficulty coming out of the memory-dreaming trance. This explains the elven resistance to sleep spells. Their resistance to charm
spells may be due to their strong sense of self-will and individuality."
And this info is attributed to at least in part Paul H. Kochers's book, "Master of Middle Earth"
Also in the article:
Elves are demi-humans
They live avg 1200 yrs an upto max 1600yrs
"Seeing others’ lives pass away around them, and having no such pressure from the presence of death, elves have attained a deep understanding and acceptance of death as a part of life by nature. They don’t look forward to it necessarily, but they have no fear of it. This feeling is so deeply ingrained that elves (and half-elves) are immune to the effects of the magic-user spell Scare, which enhances any basic fears of death and doom in the victim's mind"
"Elves are also immune to the paralyzing touch of ghouls, from which it may be deduced that ghouls are somehow able to cause their victims to be overtaken and immobilized by their fears of death. The more powerful undead creatures can paralyze or cause fear in elves as well as in other beings because those undead have a stronger innate magical power and use
different ways to bring their attacks into effect. An elf might not
fear death, but one would certainly fear an enraged vampire or lich for the harm or damage it could cause."
"Their sensitivity to emotions can be used by elves to draw people out and learn from them; elves enjoy secrets and are always seeking them for the joy of learning new knowledge. Perhaps this psychological tendency is related to their ability to detect secret and concealed doors, or perhaps this ability is just a function of living in a society that uses
secret doors a lot. This might indicate that while elves seem to know a lot about everyone else, they sometimes don’t know much about each other. Chaotics value their privacy highly."
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We are immune to sleep because we are awesome.
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Reminds me of an old AD&D FAQ:
Although the Players Handbook does not include them in the description of the Raise Dead spell, may elves and half-orcs be raised from the dead?
No, they cannot. They do not have souls.
this is what you were referring to I believe...
Thanks dharkus. Was working on memory when I wrote that originally. I read that article back 1982 (wow that was a while ago!) and the jist of it stuck with me all these years.
Wow, I once asked this question because one of my players once said he didn't need sleep, and I was slapped down, people said James Jacobs wasn't a core developer and you shouldn't listen to his lore explsnations. Also that the quote I used was before Elves of Golarion was made and apparently they contradicted that statement.
Not complaining or anything, just amazed he made a more current ruling about it.
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Why are elves immune to sleep?
Long ago, they met other races. Spent time around them. And they realized that humans spent up to a whole third of their lives sleeping. A third. Then they thought about it and went, "Wait...so do we...I'm gonna sleep for about three centuries in my lifetime?"
Thus began the great campaign to remove this problem. The elves spent many years developing meditative techniques to rest their bodies and minds. Coincidentally, the dwarven slur "tea-drinkers" comes from this era, as the elves relied heavily on the naturally-occuring stimulants of the tea family while working this out.
In the end, through magic, the grace of the gods, and way too much caffeine, a miracle happened. Elves are naturally wired as their very blood is full of caffeine. That elf that seems so serene, sitting over there watching the leaves fall? Yeah, he's a bard and painting what he sees. Look at his hands. They're shaking. Look real close though. They also spent those long years developing the muscle control to not reveal they've got the stuff in their veins.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I believe the "elves don't sleep" thing was introduced to AD&D in the article, "The Elven Point of View" from Dragon #60 (April 1982) by Roger E. Moore.