Throwback for throwback's sake is dumb.
Reverie (I refuse to call it "trance") is why elves from previous editions were immune to sleep (because they didn't sleep).
PF elves sleep. What's the reason now?
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Elves have always been immune to sleep, going back to the original D&D (1976 edition). Just like they have always been immune to ghoul paralysis. Why? You'd have to ask Gary Gygax, and he probably based it on something he found in Tolkein (which he based most things on in the game, including the "Common" tongue). It has nothing to do with "reverie" as found in 3rd edition. Which has never shown up before or since, but most players today still think it's something that elves do. It's just a race ability, alongside the dwarven bonus to saves vs spells, and the halfling bonus to saves vs fear. It's called "flavor".
It is true, elven sleep immunity has always been around. "Reverie" (being the whole "in-game" explanation for it all) hails back to 2e. But yes, a lot of the elven racial "flavor" is based on Tolkien.
If you have a problem with elves being immune to sleep, why not have a problem with dwarves being immune to speed reduction for armor/encumbrance and getting bonuses on poison, gnomes getting bonuses against illusions and having spell-like abilities in general, or halflings getting fear bonuses or better saves in general (being lucky)? It is all part of their lore, or, extrapolations of their racial flavor from previous lore/mythology.
Why the issue about elven sleep immunity? Why is there a requirement for a "reason" any more so than any of the other racial abilities I've described? It is what it is, why is that a problem? Besides, sleep is such a limited corner-case anyway as far as effects go don't see it really as a problem or big deal anyway.
You say throwback for throwback's sake is dumb. I rather see it as their lore being consistent to previous lore and respecting what has come before. Otherwise, your argument is like advocating vampires shouldn't be vulnerable to garlic or sunlight because it is a stupid throwback rather than part of their lore and mythology and what they are about.
Why do humans get bonus feats and skill points?
Why aren't dwarfs slowed by armor?
Because that's what makes them what they are.
Otherwise, your argument is like advocating vampires shouldn't be vulnerable to garlic or sunlight because it is a stupid throwback rather than part of their lore and mythology and what they are about.
There are lots of vampire myths and legends, and many of them do not give vampires bizarre incomprehensible drawbacks. In the movie Nosferatu, for example, the titular vampire is only mildly irritated by sunlight and doesn't self-combust.
Seriously, we're talking about imaginary things. Since they don't exist, anything a game system/author/movie/whatever calls an Elf is an Elf. If PF were to say 'vampires aren't susceptible to sunlight', then their imaginary creation isn't susceptible to sunlight, and it's just as valid as any other interpretation of that imaginary creation.
I was told its a vestigial thing that just stuck since the days when there was this game called Chainmail hanging around and someone thought it would be a great idea to use some of that to make their game.
first time I EVER noticed "elves don't sleep" was in second darkness AP (it might have been around before, i just never noticed it)
Originally, my understanding that elves were immune to sleep was because of how long they lived and they were eternally vigilant, immune to paralysis was due to their magically nimble/mobile nature... I never questioned it much, I was 10.
these abilities dont trace back to tolkien however, but to chain mail which played much more like magic card games and the like do today.
X type of infantry has N powers and B defenses. Y type infantry has powers and defenses, these defenses are designed to offset or cancel a power of another type of battle mini, in a constant state of "rock paper scissors"
There for the elves were immune to sleep and paralysis, and the dwarves, although slow to begin with, couldnt be further encumbered.... Originally in DnD... dwarves had REALLY tought defenses vs. magic too,
These powers and defenses from chain mail carried over from chainmail minis
Tolkien didn't invent "the common tongue" either... its been in existence since people have been trading in international commerce. In the past greek, latin and french have been the common trade tongue... it's actually English right now...who knows, in a decade it could be chinese.
I should clarify that I don't have a problem with Elves being immune to sleep. Idle curiosity is the reason for this topic.
Also didn't know Reverie only went back as far as 2nd Edition (never played anything prior to that edition personally), so ya learn something new every day.
Elves are immune to sleep and ghoul paralysis because in the days of the Chainmail wargame, elven units were expensive and it wasn't balanced for them to get taken out by cheap spells or undead fodder. The ghasts, being an expensive elite unit, could affect elves.
I think a character from penny arcade said it best: "You only feel this way because you don't care about it, imagine if they released a movie about cthulhu where every time he ate a civilization he said 'you've been cthulhu'd!'" <----EDIT: I also just wanted to clarify, I'm just kidding here and referencing a funny thing I read that this quote reminded me of.
Half-elves make the whole sleep issue really weird, as they are also immune to sleep effects but there has never been the slightest hint that they do not sleep normally. So my half-elf summoner sleeps normally but is immune to sleep spells and effects, while his eidolon never sleeps normally but is vulnerable to sleep spells and effects.
A lot of things are carryovers from previous editions where they made sense (or not, even then). Dwarves got a save vs spell because they were inherently unable to use arcane magic and iirc there was even a chance that an arcane item misfunctioned when they handled it, but now they still rock that sweet +2 to saves vs all spells even if the dwarf in question is a wizard.
Feel free to modify if you want it. Personally, i am mostly ok with it - elves tend to be innately magical, and some minor quirks like that don´t bother me too much. Better ask why a race that tends to live in the forests and most of its communities aren´t, shall we say, famous for their higher education, gets a penalty to constitution and a bonus to intelligence.
Creative Director
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Whether or not you agree or disagree with the design choices made throughout the game's history... that history is something we at Paizo are actually quite fond of. We didn't want to change the game that we grew up enjoying just for change's sake, and kept as much as we could because I'm pretty sure we're not the only ones that like a lot of the classic D&D traditions.
As with EVERY rule in the game... you can adapt them or change them to fit your preferences and style and table theme. But the baseline game is what it is, in large part, because that's how we like it and based on feedback and tradition it's how lots of other customers like it! :-)
Elves have immunity to sleep because in earlier editions they didn't need sleep, they instead went into a trance that lasted for 4 hours.
So back then sleep immunity kinda made sense.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Way back in 1e elves weren't immune to sleep, they just had a 90% chance to resist it. They also had a 90% resistance to charm effects. They were also immune to slay living because they couldn't be affected by raise dead. Early elves were definitely one of the powergamer choices, especially once Unearthed Arcana came out with all its subraces. Half-elves only had 30% resistances.
Somehow in the switch to 3e the sleep thing became immune and the charm became a small save bonus.
Tired, entitled rant below:
I prefer my elves to be unsleeping and untrancing.
I want them to be able to enter a dream-state akin to that of Tolkien elves, where they can rest their minds and ponder mysteriously, even as they walk or function normally. Like Legolas did in the Two Towers. Not some form of trance that is implied to basically work like sleep, and requires rest.
I want elven spellcasters to just get their spells back every 24 hours.
I want the elven houses in Kyonin to have beds, for the sole purpose of being comfy while making love, and for enjoying the feeling of silk-sheets a bit more than is perhaps socially acceptable.
....
heh... I want alot of things :)
BTW, bring back the magical food from Elves of Golarion! That was awesome! In fact, do alot of stuff with elves that make them more alien! and gets them their own brand of awesome. There have been way too much homogenization going on through d20 history.
JaAaaaAamMeeeEeSsss, be my wish-granting fairy and make all the stuff I want :C
-Nearyn
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I've always dug the reverie thing.
The idea that a long-lived, but socially active, being needs to pause on a regular basis to reaffirm his memories and personality against the weight of years always sort of appealed to me.
Sort of like dragons taking decade long naps, or vampiric torpor.
I agree with Mr. Jacobs though. They liked it, they kept it. You don't like it? Don't use it.
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Creative Director
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As far as I know, the whole trance/reverie thing that elves do is SPECIFICALLY something that they do in the Forgotten Realms. As such, that whole element is and never WAS in the SRD, and therefore isn't open content anyway.
So even if we wanted to use it (which we don't) I don't think we could.
One of the main reasons we don't wanna use it is because making a PC race so different from humans in that way (no sleep) causes SO many weird ripple effects. For example, we'd need to decide what elves do for bedrooms instead of bedrooms, and that has an impact on every single map we do of an elven building.
Far easier and less weird to maintain as many human parallels as we can.
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*snip*
Tolkien didn't invent "the common tongue" either... its been in existence since people have been trading in international commerce. In the past Greek, Latin and French have been the common trade tongue... it's actually English right now...who knows, in a decade it could be Chinese.
In fact, Ancient Greek was a very diverse set of local dialects but a common dialect ('koine', literally "common") developed for trade and administration periods.
So the concept of a 'common' tongue not only dates back as far as Ancient Greece but the name also dates back that far.
Throwback for throwback's sake is dumb.
Reverie (I refuse to call it "trance") is why elves from previous editions were immune to sleep (because they didn't sleep).
PF elves sleep. What's the reason now?
My foggy memory says that sometimes in the mid 80's there was a Dragon Magazine article or perhaps a Letter to the editor response from Gygax that explained this exact question.
I think it was reasoned that Ghoul Paralasys was some sort of effect based on a fear of death and that elves did not fear death in the same way as other races, hence their immunity. The Ghast Paralsys was an actual magic 'curse' and hence it affected them.
And the immunity to sleep magic was a factor lifted from Tolkein inference and ancient real world legend where the elven minds were 'different' from men and thus they rested and dreamed differently. There was more of a fey connection implied and hence the sleep magics the fey were so fond of using on men were pretty useless on Elves who were part of the fey.
That is also where they get their enchantment resilience. They have strong willed minds that are differnt enough that even magic has a hard time making them 'obey' in certain area's.
But I am trying to remember stuff from 30+ years ago so take it with a grain of salt.
As far as I know, the whole trance/reverie thing that elves do is SPECIFICALLY something that they do in the Forgotten Realms. As such, that whole element is and never WAS in the SRD, and therefore isn't open content anyway.
It actually was in PHB, in physical description, but that also didn't enter SRD so, yeah.
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Creative Director
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Also... we have our own reason for why elves are immune to ghoul paralysis... as well as for why our ghouls have pointed ears.
Also... we have our own reason for why elves are immune to ghoul paralysis... as well as for why our ghouls have pointed ears.
** spoiler omitted **
That actually brings up a lot of questions related to equivalency... Such as what the shape of my ears will be when I'm bitten by something. If I'm bitten by a vampire do I get round ears?
I thought it was a reference to lovecraftian ghouls myself. Long maws and pointy ears were a thing. Among other things... depending on the story.
"My (admittedly very rusty) understanding is that in addition to the Tolkien reference, elves in previous editions were thematically associated with faerie creatures. Just as gnomes are Golarion."
Wait, don´t Golarion elves also have some (though possibly weaker) connection with fae creatures and the like?
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Creative Director
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Also... we have our own reason for why elves are immune to ghoul paralysis... as well as for why our ghouls have pointed ears.
** spoiler omitted **
That actually brings up a lot of questions related to equivalency... Such as what the shape of my ears will be when I'm bitten by something. If I'm bitten by a vampire do I get round ears?
I thought it was a reference to lovecraftian ghouls myself. Long maws and pointy ears were a thing. Among other things... depending on the story.
No. Ghouls are a very special case.
It's also a certain bit of reference to Lovecraft as well... in fact, ghouls and ghasts in the game have ALWAYS been a reference to Lovecraft in they way they work and are depicted. Ghasts in particular.
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Creative Director
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"My (admittedly very rusty) understanding is that in addition to the Tolkien reference, elves in previous editions were thematically associated with faerie creatures. Just as gnomes are Golarion."
Wait, don´t Golarion elves also have some (though possibly weaker) connection with fae creatures and the like?
Not really... no more so than just a surface link due to the fact that fey creatures and elves often live in close proximity and often share similar chaotic care-free lifestyles.
We've deliberately moved away from making elves fey, since that link's been used in most other fantasy RPGs, and we want our elves to be a bit different. That's why they're aliens instead of fey creatures. They're still closely associated with nature and the environment (they even slowly adapt in appearance to match their surroundings after living there for long enough) but that association with nature is not fey/first world themed.
While I'm feeling enlightened that the elven resistances/immunities dated all the way back to Chainmail, I'm fairly certain that the red-cover "Complete Book of Elves" for the AD&D 2E core rule book line included details of reverie as opposed to sleep (not to mention a 24 month gestation period, those poor elven women!). My books are in storage right now, and perhaps someone can confirm or deny my recollection for me?
Regardless, it's certainly got a long history, but if it's not part of the SRD, Paizo couldn't include it in Pathfnder (and it's pretty much flavour text, anyway).
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Creative Director
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While I'm feeling enlightened that the elven resistances/immunities dated all the way back to Chainmail, I'm fairly certain that the red-cover "Complete Book of Elves" for the AD&D 2E core rule book line included details of reverie as opposed to sleep (not to mention a 24 month gestation period, those poor elven women!). My books are in storage right now, and perhaps someone can confirm or deny my recollection for me?
Regardless, it's certainly got a long history, but if it's not part of the SRD, Paizo couldn't include it in Pathfnder (and it's pretty much flavour text, anyway).
That actually sounds right to me... but that doesn't change anything about it being not available for us to use.
My books are in storage right now, and perhaps someone can confirm or deny my recollection for me?
You are correct. Page 34 of that supplement details the Reverie.
An important note in that supplement is that Elves CAN sleep but they almost always engage in the Reverie instead (it is the way that a race that lives as long as they do can 'maintain' their minds and memories).
When (those) elves do actually sleep they rarely dream (in the same way humans do) and those dreams when they rarely happen are sometimes prophetic in some way but that is even rarer than actually dreaming itself.
So they choose to Reverie so they can replay old memories rather than sleep twice as long and experience (usually) nothing at all.