AP after Strange Aeons?


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I wasn't even talking about that. If you say Nirmathis and Molthune and a plucky little dog just trying to get ho... er, The Ironfang (Invasion). Then most pathfinder fans will get it, and immediately look it up in their ISWG, and make wildly inaccurate hypothesis about it. But if you say a Hobgoblin War between Kaoling and Lingshen, and a plucky little dog just trying to get ho... Then people are going to say "where?... with who now?... what the f!** happened to the little dog..."


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Plus Nirmathas and Molthune are two regions about which relatively little has been said so far. Given their location right in the centre of the Inner Sea map, I can see the desire to fill in some of the holes before starting to say more about countries that are not part of the core campaign setting.


Davia D wrote:

{. . .}

Steve Geddes wrote:


The Tian Xia stuff just doesn't sell as well. I'm sure Paizo want to cater to all tastes, but the commercial reality has to count. Dragon Empires and similar releases had many people clamoring for more because there is a passionate group of players looking for Eastern themed adventures.

However, buying one copy is only buying one copy - regardless of how enthusiastically you do so.

Yea, and unfortunately Jade Regent doesn't spend enough time there to fully scratch the itch!

Hm, though ironically the easiest way to get more in would probably to have another path bop in for just one part to ride the popularity of the path...

What, like an AP that is partly connected to Jade Regent and starts in Tian-Xia, and has to get over to Avistan?


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Not to mention being out in the wilderness... alone... frightened... probably voiced by Bruce Willis, Burt Reynolds, or Patton Oswalt.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
A war against an army of Hobgoblins should have been set in Lingshen.
Yup that´s something i was thinking too.

It has the advantage of not being a "classic" AP because of the setting and style ... while still being a "classic" story (just not in a European sense).

captain yesterday wrote:
Nirmathis and Molthune have more name recognition.

But, that's the problem. Do we need "more of the same"?

The Tian Xia stuff just doesn't sell as well. I'm sure Paizo want to cater to all tastes, but the commercial reality has to count. Dragon Empires and similar releases had many people clamoring for more because there is a passionate group of players looking for Eastern themed adventures.

However, buying one copy is only buying one copy - regardless of how enthusiastically you do so.

Yup that argument gets repeated and repeated until it is a reality of its own, mainly because it got repeated so often.

When those first books came out, things were new and fresh. Some stuff in that books isnt as good, the samurai class for example has problems untill today. Ninja is in a weird spot shared with antipaladin.

On the other hand, Jade Regent seemed to do quite well and many people think it was a great miss only the last books played in Tian Xia actually. All stuff related to Tian Xia races seems to sell quite well, Kitsune and others are common favorites. The Tian Xia stuff in the golarion city book is some of the best there. PFS scenarios with Tian Xia are really well received.
On top of that some formats have quite changed in the meantime and a lot of things are worth a revisit.

But hey, maybe that is also a generation problem. Maybe the babyboomers keep ruling this game just like the rule everything else...I mean, what was good 20-30 years ago and worked back then still has to work today right? And all those youngins are just lazy....


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I think the main sticking point is that Paizo's campaign setting is the Inner Sea region. Yes, there's hints at more, and over time the amount of information on the external regions will increase, but the Inner Sea will always be the main focus.

I, personally, am less interested in Dragon Empires stuff, but there are other areas beyond the Inner Sea I'd love to know more about (Arcadia and Iblydos). But there are also a LOT of places within the Inner Sea that I want too (Geb & Nex, Realm of the Mammoth Lords, etc.). They'll get to all of these places eventually, I'm sure, but would expect that locations within the campaign setting will be covered first.


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Hayato Ken wrote:
Yup that argument gets repeated and repeated until it is a reality of its own, mainly because it got repeated so often.

I'm repeating it because I assumed you didn't know it. The reason it's reality is because it's come from the people who know (ie the people who work at Paizo and actually have access to the numbers). It's hard for us to work out what's a successful product and what isn't because we're forced to rely on our own experience. We tend to think of the products we enjoy as "successes" and those we don't as "failures" when, in fact, you and I are just individual datapoints. The conglomerate of preferences amongst the paizo fans is what matters.

Even if you don't like the conclusion, there's no point dismissing it as some kind of 'group think'. There is an economic dimension to what Paizo chooses to make alongside that of what books they'd like to make. That's an unfortunate fact and appreciating it means you at least understand why there isn't more Tian Xia material coming out (or why it isn't coming out as quickly as you'd like).

Quote:

When those first books came out, things were new and fresh. Some stuff in that books isnt as good, the samurai class for example has problems untill today. Ninja is in a weird spot shared with antipaladin.

On the other hand, Jade Regent seemed to do quite well and many people think it was a great miss only the last books played in Tian Xia actually. All stuff related to Tian Xia races seems to sell quite well, Kitsune and others are common favorites. The Tian Xia stuff in the golarion city book is some of the best there. PFS scenarios with Tian Xia are really well received.
On top of that some formats have quite changed in the meantime and a lot of things are worth a revisit.

I think the tian xia products are great - citing them as being well received is kind of missing the point I'm making though. The problem was (although this is admittedly a few years out of date so maybe it's changed) that it wasn't as commercially successful as the "non-asian" stuff, not that it wasn't creatively successful.

I'd quite like to see more Tian Xia campaign material, personally. So I hope things have changed. I haven't heard of any spike in sales of Dragon Empires (or similar) though.

I suspect the support we'll see is in the form of entries in the various "X of Golarion" products as we have recently.


UnArcaneElection wrote:


What, like an AP that is partly connected to Jade Regent and starts in Tian-Xia, and has to get over to Avistan?

Sure. Or, say, something like Reign of Winter where you use an odd means of travel to go place-to-place, and one of those is Tian-Xia. Perhaps not on purpose.

An ocean-going one, maybe, where the first part launches from Avistan, you go to Azlan (or Arcadia), things go wrong and you end up in Tian-Xia and need to gather allies there for a second go. Maybe a full world-tour where you visit each continent in a path....

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Hayato Ken wrote:

But hey, maybe that is also a generation problem. Maybe the babyboomers keep ruling this game just like the rule everything else...I mean, what was good 20-30 years ago and worked back then still has to work today right? And all those youngins...

Every moment you spend bemoaning that "old farts" keep your love of everything Asian down with their traditionalist preferences is a moment where you aren't writing a review of Tian Xia-related products. Which James did indicate, while addressing you directly, as one of the better ways of expressing your opinion in a manner that blimps on Paizo's radar.

Just sayin'.


Lord Fyre wrote:
A war against an army of Hobgoblins should have been set in Lingshen.

I'm kind of hoping there are at least some ja noi oni in this. Reading between the lines of the histories of Avistan and Tian-Xia, it seems at least marginally possible that ja noi were involved with (or behind) the Goblinblood Wars. I'd like for that to be the case, and see them involved with this as well.

Dark Archive

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Gorbacz wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

But hey, maybe that is also a generation problem. Maybe the babyboomers keep ruling this game just like the rule everything else...I mean, what was good 20-30 years ago and worked back then still has to work today right? And all those youngins...

Every moment you spend bemoaning that "old farts" keep your love of everything Asian down with their traditionalist preferences is a moment where you aren't writing a review of Tian Xia-related products. Which James did indicate, while addressing you directly, as one of the better ways of expressing your opinion in a manner that blimps on Paizo's radar.

Just sayin'.

Isn't it kinda late by now starting to review them? .-.

I mean, does Paizo react to if oldest products are suddenly reviewed? They have already been out for years

Liberty's Edge

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It's entirely possible. We don't know how their system works. We can't assume that reviewing at this time is pointless.

In any case, when I'm buying new products, I always sort by rating, not by time. Therefore, I'm more likely to buy the better reviewed product than the more recent one. And sales matter.

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CorvusMask wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

But hey, maybe that is also a generation problem. Maybe the babyboomers keep ruling this game just like the rule everything else...I mean, what was good 20-30 years ago and worked back then still has to work today right? And all those youngins...

Every moment you spend bemoaning that "old farts" keep your love of everything Asian down with their traditionalist preferences is a moment where you aren't writing a review of Tian Xia-related products. Which James did indicate, while addressing you directly, as one of the better ways of expressing your opinion in a manner that blimps on Paizo's radar.

Just sayin'.

Isn't it kinda late by now starting to review them? .-.

I mean, does Paizo react to if oldest products are suddenly reviewed? They have already been out for years

Things change. Market changes. Target groups change. Movies and books which were ignored at release have now cult following and critical acclaim. Same goes for RPGs.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

But hey, maybe that is also a generation problem. Maybe the babyboomers keep ruling this game just like the rule everything else...I mean, what was good 20-30 years ago and worked back then still has to work today right? And all those youngins...

Every moment you spend bemoaning that "old farts" keep your love of everything Asian down with their traditionalist preferences is a moment where you aren't writing a review of Tian Xia-related products. Which James did indicate, while addressing you directly, as one of the better ways of expressing your opinion in a manner that blimps on Paizo's radar.

Just sayin'.

Isn't it kinda late by now starting to review them? .-.

I mean, does Paizo react to if oldest products are suddenly reviewed? They have already been out for years

I think Paizo will notice if a subset of their products gets a higher rating than normal. I doubt the average rating measure has got any "decay" factored in.

However, bear in mind that it will also increase the visibility of the product to customers who weren't here when it was released (I often find 3PP products I missed on release via someone else's review). Paizo will definitely take note if something sells well.


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Gorbacz wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

But hey, maybe that is also a generation problem. Maybe the babyboomers keep ruling this game just like the rule everything else...I mean, what was good 20-30 years ago and worked back then still has to work today right? And all those youngins...

Every moment you spend bemoaning that "old farts" keep your love of everything Asian down with their traditionalist preferences is a moment where you aren't writing a review of Tian Xia-related products. Which James did indicate, while addressing you directly, as one of the better ways of expressing your opinion in a manner that blimps on Paizo's radar.

Just sayin'.

Best point so far and i´m actually on that. There´s a whole list of reviews i want to write. Takes some time though.

Also i might not be as serious as some people seem to believe :D


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CorvusMask wrote:


Isn't it kinda late by now starting to review them? .-.

I mean, does Paizo react to if oldest products are suddenly reviewed? They have already been out for years

No, it´s never too late for reviews.

Several designers said as much.
And even though some things might be "older", they still see play regularly and are a part of the game. When that part gets reviewed positively even after years, it´s a strong indicator for the designers and Paizo. That effects gets stronger when also done on other sites like amazon.


Last Fall they put out a little book called Distant Shores which basically featured a little bit on every continent. And the purpose of this product was two fold first to scratch the itch of all the people crying out for more fil-in-the-blank continents but more importantly it was a test product to see if people would put their money where their mouth is. So basically if it sold well we will probably see more stuff on non-inner sea continents if it didn't don't expect that hardcover on Tian-xia any time soon.

And while I don't think Paizo is in any financial trouble they are surviving I don't think things are as good as they used to be. Let's face it, it has been a while since they released a universally accepted AP The more recent ones have all been to much sci-fi, to much evil to traditional, etc, although I personally have all 106 books. They are at a point where all the best ideas in both AP's and rulebooks have already been done and generating excitment is getting harder. And of course 5th edition has to have taken a bite out of their sales. So they are going to be more careful than ever. And they are taking their first major risk in years with Starfinder so don't expect any other risks for a while.

As for my opinion of a hobgoblin invasion while my first impression was MEH If it is done well it could it have real potential to be one of the best AP's in years. I mean if they were announcing Crimson Throne today and they described it in a sentence or two which is all we have for Darkfang Invasion how many would be excited. I can remember that I wasn't excited about Crimson Throne at all until I read it and then it was like WOW.

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ladydragona wrote:
Let's face it, it has been a while since they released a universally accepted AP The more recent ones have all been to much sci-fi, to much evil to traditional, etc, although I personally have all 106 books. They are at a point where all the best ideas in both AP's and rulebooks have already been done and generating excitment is getting harder.

No.

There have always been complainers. People complained about different things about Serpent's Skull, Jade Regent, Skull & Shackles, Reign of Winter -- all APs have had people who disliked them. You're practicing some selective history if you think there was a time when APs were "universally accepted".

I don't accept the premise that the best ideas have already been used and generating excitement is any harder than it used to be. If you want to convince me of that, let's see some actual numbers rather than just an off the cuff remark.


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Universally excepted AP, there is no such thing.


I agree with Samy in regards to the best ideas having already been used.

I've seen a lot of awesome ideas tossed around on the message boards here, but I haven't purchased or run a Paizo AP since Reign of Winter.
Nothing since RoW has remotely interested me or my gaming group.

Since then, we've played third party games and waited for something to draw us in. Strange Aeons has finally done that and I will sub as soon as the option becomes available. Unfortunately, after the Strange Aeons AP, I will unsub again and go back to 3PP content.

In my opinion, there are a lot of good, original, ideas out there. They just aren't coming out of Paizo lately.


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Firstbourne wrote:
In my opinion, there are a lot of good, original, ideas out there. They just aren't coming out of Paizo lately.

Considering the kicking and screaming they encounter for some of their "good, original ideas," I think you might be misreading the origins of the less-gonzo APs.

Dark Archive

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When people say "original ideas" why do they seem to mean "oh yay its something I like"? :P I mean, how is Hell's Rebels or Iron Gods unoriginal? Seriously. You could argue Strange Aeons is just lovecraft in D&D and so not original.


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Firstbourne wrote:

I agree with Samy in regards to the best ideas having already been used.

I've seen a lot of awesome ideas tossed around on the message boards here, but I haven't purchased or run a Paizo AP since Reign of Winter.
Nothing since RoW has remotely interested me or my gaming group.

Since then, we've played third party games and waited for something to draw us in. Strange Aeons has finally done that and I will sub as soon as the option becomes available. Unfortunately, after the Strange Aeons AP, I will unsub again and go back to 3PP content.

In my opinion, there are a lot of good, original, ideas out there. They just aren't coming out of Paizo lately.

I'm pretty sure you disagree with Samy.

The thing is there are always people complaining about the APs. I wasn't on the boards during the release of rise of the runelords, but there were complaints as far back as the now highly regarded Curse of the Crimson Throne - ranging from 'it's "supposed to be" an urban AP and shouldn't have left the city', to 'A dungeoncrawl taking up an entire chapter is terribly boring and old fashioned'.

For what it's worth, the APs which have worked out the best for me at the table are those I have very little interest in. I personally find the occasional drift into areas I'm not interested in to be amongst the most surprising and refreshing reads (even if I don't go on to run them).


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Steve Geddes wrote:
'A dungeoncrawl taking up an entire chapter is terribly boring and old fashioned'.

Isn´t that more like a fact?

I mean, a book filling dungeon crawl better has to be so extraordinarily good and offer a lot more than just one room of more or less random encounters.
For that there´s always a ton of OSR clones.


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Opinions are very rarely facts. It was my second favorite installment of the AP and not boring or old fashioned at all, in my view.

However, my point was that people being disappointed in APs and declaring them unoriginal and/or boring isn't a new thing - that's been happening for years.


CorvusMask wrote:
When people say "original ideas" why do they seem to mean "oh yay its something I like"? :P I mean, how is Hell's Rebels or Iron Gods unoriginal? Seriously. You could argue Strange Aeons is just lovecraft in D&D and so not original.

I'm fairly new to getting pathfinder APs, and the ones you named were on the very short list I got first, while many of the older ones I'm less sure if I'll pick up (even if I can find them for good prices).

Iron Gods was, indeed, the one that got me buying.

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So how many APs will now be published each year? Is it still two (one of each game)? Or is it now four?


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Four, two Pathfinder, 2 Starfinder.

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The Paizo staff amoeba has reached a size where it may undergo mitosis and produce two awesome games instead of just one!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
The Paizo staff amoeba has reached a size where it may undergo mitosis and produce two awesome games instead of just one!

But, just like Jonas Venture Jr., one may prove to be non-viable.


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Call me crazy, but I kind of enjoy listening to people complain about having too many dungeons and dragons in their Dungeons & Dragons.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Marvin Ghey wrote:
Call me crazy, but I kind of enjoy listening to people complain about having too many dungeons and dragons in their Dungeons & Dragons.

They just want more paths in the Pathfinder.

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Lord Fyre wrote:
Marvin Ghey wrote:
Call me crazy, but I kind of enjoy listening to people complain about having too many dungeons and dragons in their Dungeons & Dragons.
They just want more paths in the Pathfinder.

But...but...there are already so many paths - they just need to find them...


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You just need a Laser Torch and some Napalm to find the path.


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Viscount of Two Moons Hence wrote:
You just need a Laser Torch and some Napalm to find the path.

While find the path requires a divine focus, it does not have material components.

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Anguish wrote:
Viscount of Two Moons Hence wrote:
You just need a Laser Torch and some Napalm to find the path.
While find the path requires a divine focus, it does not have material components.

Napalm isn't a component, it's seasoning.


I never got a chance to play Red Hand of Doom, I've always heard it was great. I am quite intrigued by this.

Gorbacz, I'm trying to envision what playing a campaign of The One Ring with you would be like.

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Gambit wrote:

I never got a chance to play Red Hand of Doom, I've always heard it was great. I am quite intrigued by this.

Gorbacz, I'm trying to envision what playing a campaign of The One Ring with you would be like.

I'd play a giant spider and eat everyone.


Hobgoblin invasion sounds cool. I just hope they do a better job of giving out some preview information than with Giantslayer. Going into GS from Iron Gods, all anyone really knew was that there were giants and maybe a red dragon ally. Which, coming off the heels of Iron Gods, we really needed more information on what made GS special and different from Against the Giants. So hopefully we get more preview info that will whet the appetite.

As for Tian Xia, I've pretty much accepted that we aren't getting that or Arcadia anymore. It's just not in the cards. It doesn't sell well enough and nobody else really wants it. Which is fine. I can always do a Native American fantasy world myself.


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Of course, the advantage of doing it yourself is you don't have the internet telling you it's too racist, or not racist enough.

I have a feeling, Arcadia is a tightrope they'd rather not walk. :-)


Being afraid of people on the internet is silly.


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I agree.


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Odraude wrote:
As for Tian Xia, I've pretty much accepted that we aren't getting that or Arcadia anymore. It's just not in the cards. It doesn't sell well enough and nobody else really wants it. Which is fine. I can always do a Native American fantasy world myself.

Excuse me, but i think that is nonsense.

Someone said that a long time ago, it was hinted that 2 books which came out a very long time ago didn´t sell that well, and people just repeat it over and over, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Maybe you wanna rethink that. A lot has changed since then.
Additionaly, things sell when they get hyped.


Odraude wrote:
Being afraid of people on the internet is silly.

It's not silly if you're in a business that does a lot of sales and customer relations through the internet. Not making people mad (and deleting forum posts that make your company or employees look incompetent or silly) are defensible in that circumstance.

Hayato Ken wrote:
Odraude wrote:
As for Tian Xia, I've pretty much accepted that we aren't getting that or Arcadia anymore. It's just not in the cards. It doesn't sell well enough and nobody else really wants it. Which is fine. I can always do a Native American fantasy world myself.

Excuse me, but i think that is nonsense.

Someone said that a long time ago, it was hinted that 2 books which came out a very long time ago didn´t sell that well, and people just repeat it over and over, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Maybe you wanna rethink that. A lot has changed since then.
Additionaly, things sell when they get hyped.

Things sell well when there is natural hype. Grassroots demand, not astroturf.


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I'll buy a Tian Xia AP absolutely. Arcadia as well. I'm confident the staff at Paizo can handle any culture thrown their way with respect, intelligence, and study.


I thought that was part of your point, though, the "not racist enough" contingent would probably reduce their sales for that compared to something made up from whole cloth and wholly original. If Arcadia has empires that do universally have writing and the (non-toy use of the) wheel but don't have human sacrifice and lots of intertribal conflict what was the point in basing it (to whatever thin degree), they might say, on a real culture and time period?


Hayato Ken wrote:
Odraude wrote:
As for Tian Xia, I've pretty much accepted that we aren't getting that or Arcadia anymore. It's just not in the cards. It doesn't sell well enough and nobody else really wants it. Which is fine. I can always do a Native American fantasy world myself.

Excuse me, but i think that is nonsense.

Someone said that a long time ago, it was hinted that 2 books which came out a very long time ago didn´t sell that well, and people just repeat it over and over, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Maybe you wanna rethink that. A lot has changed since then.
Additionaly, things sell when they get hyped.

Why should I wait when I can just do it myself? Jade Regeant came out years ago and beyond some PFS scenarios, what else is coming? I expect the same of Distant Shores. And what other Paizonians are there besides Adam Daigle that are championing Arcadia?

I've waited three years for more stuff on Arcadia and honestly, I can just do it myself.

Slithery D wrote:
Odraude wrote:
Being afraid of people on the internet is silly.

It's not silly if you're in a business that does a lot of sales and customer relations through the internet. Not making people mad (and deleting forum posts that make your company or employees look incompetent or silly) are defensible in that circumstance.

Hayato Ken wrote:
Odraude wrote:
As for Tian Xia, I've pretty much accepted that we aren't getting that or Arcadia anymore. It's just not in the cards. It doesn't sell well enough and nobody else really wants it. Which is fine. I can always do a Native American fantasy world myself.

Excuse me, but i think that is nonsense.

Someone said that a long time ago, it was hinted that 2 books which came out a very long time ago didn´t sell that well, and people just repeat it over and over, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Maybe you wanna rethink that. A lot has changed since then.
Additionaly, things sell when they get hyped.

Things sell well when there is natural hype. Grassroots demand, not astroturf.

But it is silly if you are so afraid of offending people that you don't publish anything different. Take some chances. Paizo WILL offend people, no matter what they publish. So they may as well just publish something, with the best respect and research that they can.


They are going to publish something! The thing that they think makes them some combination of the most money and the most staff happiness, depending on internal dynamics and power relationships. Both those things are going to be influenced by the expected happiness of their customers, so it may influence them away from what you specifically want to see.

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Yeah but we're not going to wait around.


I wonder if what would be needed to get a Tian Xia or Arcadian or Sarusan or Mwangi AP would be for somebody from the corresponding culture on Earth who is a history buff for their own indigenous culture and well versed in writing for American/European audiences to become a fan of Pathfinder, apply for a job at Paizo, and then make the AP.

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