AP after Strange Aeons?

[Crystal Frasier]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

I'm sure they will. These two were denied for very different, and very temporary reasons.

Can you give any insight into the reason?

Alas, I cannot. Rest assured the battle was epic

A longer explanation is: Picking what APs to be do when isn't a simple matter of "I have a great idea!" Everyone at Paizo has great ideas. Everyone here has way more great ideas than we could ever possibly write. What does and doesn't become an AP (and when) depends on who is available to do what, what other products we have on the schedule, which authors we know we'll have available and what their strengths are, what we've done lately, and what we haven't done in a while.

More often than not, because pitching and outlining APs is a team effort, the original ideas morph and evolve. Whoever will run that AP has to be excited an on-board, but the whole team gets into the planning stage to help out, throw out plot twists, call out potential problems, and tighten dramatic elements.

I can tell you that the AP we ARE doing is another great idea that is a fusion of my third pitch, refined with some extra input from Wes and Adam, and I think it's going to be a ton of fun, with some old-school flavor we haven't played with in a while.

[j b 200]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

I'm sure they will. These two were denied for very different, and very temporary reasons.

Can you give any insight into the reason?

Alas, I cannot. Rest assured the battle was epic

A longer explanation is: Picking what APs to be do when isn't a simple matter of "I have a great idea!" Everyone at Paizo has great ideas. Everyone here has way more great ideas than we could ever possibly write. What does and doesn't become an AP (and when) depends on who is available to do what, what other products we have on the schedule, which authors we know we'll have available and what their strengths are, what we've done lately, and what we haven't done in a while.

More often than not, because pitching and outlining APs is a team effort, the original ideas morph and evolve. Whoever will run that AP has to be excited an on-board, but the whole team gets into the planning stage to help out, throw out plot twists, call out potential problems, and tighten dramatic elements.

I can tell you that the AP we ARE doing is another great idea that is a fusion of my third pitch, refined with some extra input from Wes and Adam, and I think it's going to be a ton of fun, with some old-school flavor we haven't played with in a while.

Thank you for that.

That is a very JJ answer. And I mean that as the highest of complements.

[Callous Jack]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Alas, I cannot. Rest assured the battle was epic

I hope you gave someone an atomic wedgie.

[Crystal Frasier]

Callous Jack wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Alas, I cannot. Rest assured the battle was epic

I hope you gave someone an atomic wedgie.

Well I sure as hell don't RECEIVE atomic wedgies.

[Dragon78]

Something old school flavored...interesting.

[Grond]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

j b 200 wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

I'm sure they will. These two were denied for very different, and very temporary reasons.

Can you give any insight into the reason?

Alas, I cannot. Rest assured the battle was epic

A longer explanation is: Picking what APs to be do when isn't a simple matter of "I have a great idea!" Everyone at Paizo has great ideas. Everyone here has way more great ideas than we could ever possibly write. What does and doesn't become an AP (and when) depends on who is available to do what, what other products we have on the schedule, which authors we know we'll have available and what their strengths are, what we've done lately, and what we haven't done in a while.

More often than not, because pitching and outlining APs is a team effort, the original ideas morph and evolve. Whoever will run that AP has to be excited an on-board, but the whole team gets into the planning stage to help out, throw out plot twists, call out potential problems, and tighten dramatic elements.

I can tell you that the AP we ARE doing is another great idea that is a fusion of my third pitch, refined with some extra input from Wes and Adam, and I think it's going to be a ton of fun, with some old-school flavor we haven't played with in a while.

Old school flavor with some kind of twist...could this be a dungeon crawler AP? Dungeon crawler for old school flavor and the twist being it is set in the Darklands?

[DM Alistair]

So it's going to be a Drow AP, I can feel it in my bones...

[ladydragona]

Well from things I have read this last year mostly from JJ's comments They do not have anything planed that takes place out of the inner sea region ( yeah their might be a short visit). Also as Crystal has implied this will probably be a traditional AP which makes sense considering that both evil and Cthulu mythos as themes would both be considered experimental so it is time for traditional.

Now for guesses. I think they will save Varisia for the 10th anniversary so stay tuned to gen con for that announcement (maybe) so where haven't they gone recently or ever.

I am thinking Galt is out not for location but for theme we just spent an entire year fighting insurrection from both sides of the alignment wheel. Cheliax is certainly out like for sure.

To me old school means a good old dungeon romp so maybe some drow goodness (or other cave dwelling nightmares) in the darklands. That hasn't been done since second darkness only this time they can do it right so that is my guess the Darklands. As for where in the darklands who knows.

[Lord Fyre]

Kaer Maga?

The ancient city has levels upon levels of dungeon beneath it.

[Marco Massoudi]

The AP after Strange Aeons will be #20 but not quite the 10th Anniversary - that will be #21, which will feature the Runelords.

So that leaves imo:

-Brevoy, which has already been half-developed in the background article of Kingmaker and has a very classic russian Game of Thrones feel to it with older and newer noble families battling for the throne.

-Kyonin, which has been half-developed in Second Darkness, Elves of Golarion, the great "Queen of Thornes" novel etc.
It wouldn't be Elves vs. Demons but something else.
Since the PCs would most likely have to be elves, i don't think this is it.

-Five Kings Mountains, which is only a little developed in Dwarves of Golarion.
This is tricky too, but a little less so than Kyonin.
If i would do this AP, i would probably call it "King of all Dwarves" and things like the "axe of the dwarven lords" would feature in it.
Also not very likely.

-Nidal.
Undeveloped beyond Pangolais in Towns of the Inner Sea, i think.
"Nightglass" does a great job for a little insight into Zon-Kuthon's religion too.
With Cheliax concerned with itself in Hell's Vengeance, it would play no big role in this AP.
Rather it wood be the druids of Uskwood vs. the Shadow Court.
But maybe a little too political in too short a time.

-the PCs have to stop a war between Elves and Dwarves with a shadowy figure in the background trying to manipulate the two nations into conflict.

[UnArcaneElection]

ladydragona wrote:

{. . .}

To me old school means a good old dungeon romp so maybe some drow goodness (or other cave dwelling nightmares) in the darklands. That hasn't been done since second darkness only this time they can do it right so that is my guess the Darklands. As for where in the darklands who knows.

AND

Lord Fyre wrote:

Kaer Maga?

The ancient city has levels upon levels of dungeon beneath it.

Actually, we haven't seen much of Kaer Maga, and it would be a good starting point for a Darklands adventure, so this could work . . .

Although if they were going to do a Second Darkness Hardcover (next after the Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover), it would take some work to make them synergize rather than compete with each other, but it has awesomeness potential.

[Grond]

I would like a Darklands AP. Not so much for drow but for duergar. I <3 me some gray dwarves.

[Dragon78]

Well we have gotten a decent number of books with Darklands related stuff lately so that could be a possibility. Though I hope not, never been a fan of the "under dark" type settings.

Would love to see the Five Kings Mountains or Kyonin again(and done right).

[captain yesterday]

It might make me sad for the Throne of Night backers.

[Balgin]

You know eventually, just eventually, Pathfinder has to finally give us the long awaited Dwarfs vs Greenskins adventure path. If it involves reclaiming the Hold of Belkzen for the Dwarfs then that's even better. Sadly we have to settle for more filler material but mark my words, our time shall come. Even if it wasn't Giantslayer (which was still very dwarf friendly but didn't quite make up for the lack of dwarf support in Paizo products). Why do the lanky topsiders get all the support? Ruddy heads in the clouds. They need to watch where they're stepping or they might just blunder into one of our adventures instead and then they'd be totally lost.

[Squeakmaan]

Hmm, "old school" is so intriguing, because it could mean old school like drow, or old school like dungeons, or old school like Journey to the Center of the Earth level of old school (which is not incidentally something i've really been hurting for).

[Hayato Ken]

Old school can mean so many different things by now, without definition it doesn´t mean anything really^^

[SheepishEidolon]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

I can tell you that the AP we ARE doing is another great idea that is a fusion of my third pitch, refined with some extra input from Wes and Adam, and I think it's going to be a ton of fun, with some old-school flavor we haven't played with in a while.

Sounds like dragons weaving webs of intrigue. Probably with a bit of religion, given the upcoming books, hmm...

[Firstbourne]

captain yesterday wrote:

It might make me sad for the Throne of Night backers.

Don't be sad for us. We're full enough of self-pity and disappointment.

[UnArcaneElection]

SheepishEidolon wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

I can tell you that the AP we ARE doing is another great idea that is a fusion of my third pitch, refined with some extra input from Wes and Adam, and I think it's going to be a ton of fun, with some old-school flavor we haven't played with in a while.

Sounds like dragons weaving webs of intrigue. Probably with a bit of religion, given the upcoming books, hmm...

Actually, a Dragon-themed AP could be good. And supposedly Dragons are supposed to be into intrigue, and we even get a hint of it from Hermea and its ruler, but we never actually get to see any of it.

[Hayato Ken]

A from the beginning to the end Tian Xia themed AP exploring one or more of the nations and opportunities there more would be even better than a pure dragon themed Inner Sea again AP, yet it could also include dragons.
There are even many reasons to include dragons.

[Lord Fyre]

Hayato Ken wrote:

A from the beginning to the end Tian Xia themed AP exploring one or more of the nations and opportunities there more would be even better than a pure dragon themed Inner Sea again AP, yet it could also include dragons.

There are even many reasons to include dragons.

Indeed, an end-to-end Asian themed AP MUST include dragons. They are that important to Chinese and Japanese folklore.

But, we both know that such an AP will not happen. Stop torturing yourself.

[Hayato Ken]

I know that it´s possible and been spoken of, therefore, by the laws of the universe, sooner or later it has to happen^^

[Lord Fyre]

Hayato Ken wrote:

I know that it´s possible and been spoken of, therefore, by the laws of the universe, sooner or later it has to happen^^

It has been spoken of before, none the less it will not happen.

The Universe will cheat thee. :p

Spoiler:

“It is absolutely necessary, for the peace and safety of mankind, that some of earth's dark, dead corners and unplumbed depths be left alone; lest sleeping abnormalities wake to resurgent life, and blasphemously surviving nightmares squirm and splash out of their black lairs to newer and wider conquests.”
― H.P. Lovecraft

[Hayato Ken]

Yeah, having such a negative attitude about it surely helps there.

As a Ctulluh fan, you can now be calmed and let others get a piece of cake, since you get some new mechanics and a new AP.
Tian Xia is actually a larger part of the game than that stuff, being a whole continent and everything attached to it.

[Lord Fyre]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Yeah, having such a negative attitude about it surely helps there.

As a Ctulluh fan, you can now be calmed and let others get a piece of cake, since you get some new mechanics and a new AP.
Tian Xia is actually a larger part of the game than that stuff, being a whole continent and everything attached to it.

Not just a whole continent, but region specific races, class variants, and really cool monsters that just don't fit in as well in an Occidental setting.

And as awesome as Cthulu or traditional western horror is, supernatural Asian creatures can show what terror really means.

[Dragon78]

I would love a fully Tian Xia AP but I doubt we will see that anytime soon.

[Crystal Frasier]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Old school can mean so many different things by now, without definition it doesn´t mean anything really^^

That was sort of the point :) I'm not going to just GIVE this stuff away to you lot.

That said, don't go convincing yourselves of anything specific. For starters, I am NOT Paizo's drow person, I will never be Paizo's drow person, and if I ever find myself in the unenviable position of being Paizo's drow person, you will know that something has gone horribly awry.

[Rysky]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Old school can mean so many different things by now, without definition it doesn´t mean anything really^^

That was sort of the point :) I'm not going to just GIVE this stuff away to you lot.

That said, don't go convincing yourselves of anything specific. For starters, I am NOT Paizo's drow person, I will never be Paizo's drow person, and if I ever find myself in the unenviable position of being Paizo's drow person, you will know that something has gone horribly awry.

What about Paizo's duergar person?

[Shakespearean Drizz't]

Why! Why hast thou Crystal forsaken us! Fore our hour of needeth even! Forever more, doom ist predictedeth!

[LazGrizzle]

I didn't read the entire thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating things, but am I the only one who wants to see more with the Mana Wastes and Alkenstar? I mean, Mutant gunslinger gnolls? It's like the "Mad-Max" post-apocalypse version of Golarion. I think that would make for a fantastic AP. Have rules for hodge-podge crafting a la' Fallout 4, maybe Radiation Magic, random mutations, etc.

[Crystal Frasier]

LazGrizzle wrote:

I didn't read the entire thread, so pardon me if I'm repeating things, but am I the only one who wants to see more with the Mana Wastes and Alkenstar? I mean, Mutant gunslinger gnolls? It's like the "Mad-Max" post-apocalypse version of Golarion. I think that would make for a fantastic AP. Have rules for hodge-podge crafting a la' Fallout 4, maybe Radiation Magic, random mutations, etc.

I think what you're looking for as far as a "Mad Max post-apocalypse version of Golarion" is actually Numeria, and we've done the AP you're thinking of: [url+http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/ironGods]Iron Gods[/url]. There's even an adventure set in a tech junkyard, fighting tech cultists with lasers and rules for developing strange mutations form exposure to radiation and toxic waste.

Alkenstar and the Mana Wests are intended to be more "weird west" flavored; wild west plus uncontrolled magic. And I think there's also some interest in that, but it may be a little while before we can get to it.

[Crystal Frasier]

Rysky wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Old school can mean so many different things by now, without definition it doesn´t mean anything really^^

That was sort of the point :) I'm not going to just GIVE this stuff away to you lot.

That said, don't go convincing yourselves of anything specific. For starters, I am NOT Paizo's drow person, I will never be Paizo's drow person, and if I ever find myself in the unenviable position of being Paizo's drow person, you will know that something has gone horribly awry.

What about Paizo's duergar person?

Gersundheit

[Rysky]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Old school can mean so many different things by now, without definition it doesn´t mean anything really^^

That was sort of the point :) I'm not going to just GIVE this stuff away to you lot.

That said, don't go convincing yourselves of anything specific. For starters, I am NOT Paizo's drow person, I will never be Paizo's drow person, and if I ever find myself in the unenviable position of being Paizo's drow person, you will know that something has gone horribly awry.

What about Paizo's duergar person?

Gersundheit

Danke schön.

[Dragon78]

Yeah the term old school is very broad, I mean a pulpy sword and planet AP could be considered old school just not D&D/Pathfinder old school.

We have already done the against the giants kind of school lately so that is out.

It could be darklands related(without Drow) but also doubt that as well.

It's safe to assume that it will be taking place somewhere in the Inner Sea region.

If it is D&D/Pathfinder old school then that leaves out every non-European culture basically.

[Lord Fyre]

Shakespearean Drizz't wrote:

Why! Why hast thou Crystal forsaken us! Fore our hour of needeth even! Forever more, doom ist predictedeth!

Oh come on!

PaizoCon is not that far away.

[Eliandra Giltessan]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Alkenstar and the Mana Wests are intended to be more "weird west" flavored; wild west plus uncontrolled magic. And I think there's also some interest in that, but it may be a little while before we can get to it.

This is the best thing I've heard all week.* I can wait a little while. I've got plenty of APs to run in the meantime.

* It is only Monday.

[Shakespearean Drizz't]

I meant upon Golarion. i have no plans for PaizoCon.

Besides, its 2016, Drow get their revenge by sparkling in the moonlight. has Twilight taught you nothing!

My god man! not even Vampires are safe from the Teenage Apocalypse!

[Lord Fyre]

Shakespearean Drizz't wrote:

I meant upon Golarion. i have no plans for PaizoCon.

Besides, its 2016, Drow get their revenge by sparkling in the moonlight. has Twilight taught you nothing!

My god man! not even Vampires are safe from the Teenage Apocalypse!

It has taught me much about sparkly vampires.

[Hayato Ken]

Crystal Frasier wrote:

Hayato Ken wrote:

Old school can mean so many different things by now, without definition it doesn´t mean anything really^^

That was sort of the point :) I'm not going to just GIVE this stuff away to you lot.

That said, don't go convincing yourselves of anything specific. For starters, I am NOT Paizo's drow person, I will never be Paizo's drow person, and if I ever find myself in the unenviable position of being Paizo's drow person, you will know that something has gone horribly awry.

Forget about that Drow stuff^^

Explore your inner TianXia and everything will be fine. Your soul will be able to recover from the mind numbing horrors, at least untill you find some kraken tentacles in TianXia. :D

Please don´t tell us there´s gonna be another mega dungeon something?

Also your "Gesundheit" has a "r" too much.

Fallout, Mad Max, anything in that direction is definately Numeria and Iron Gods is a really awesome AP!
Mana Wastes are more for a "Deadlands" feel in Golarion.

[Misroi]

I think anyone expecting an extraordinarily "back-to-basics old school" AP will be sorely disappointed. The most recent of those was Giantslayer, which followed on the heels of Iron Gods. Iron Gods was also an old school AP, harkening back to the classic Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, but obviously was trying much harder to integrate advanced technology into the setting without completely breaking the game's skeleton. Most people would agree that they succeeded in this - the tech rules sold out, and barring some middle stuff that people argue is too long and not completely necessary, the buzz is rather positive.

Giantslayer, on the other hand, is completely old school. It's clearly a riff on Against the Giants, right down to the fact that hill, frost, and fire giants play significant roles in the Path in that order. We don't have any sales numbers to back this up, but buzz about Giantslayer is much more muted than Iron Gods. I think there are two large reasons for that. First, giants aren't nearly as interesting opponents as robots and aliens. The former is very generic, while the latter is definitely more polarizing. Second, and this one is a much larger problem, Paizo has already done Against the Giants in Rise of the Runelords. We've already had a giant army attacking a region's settlements. We've already had PCs figure out a way into a giant's stronghold and kill off the leader. We've done this all before.

I've only glanced at the Giantslayer boards, but the fact that there's a thread entitled Why no love for Giantslayer? speaks volumes. It raises the problems with that AP far better than I can do here. Still, by these accounts, it doesn't seem to have gone over well, and Paizo is filled with smart business people - if something doesn't make them money, then they aren't going to do it again.

Finally, I'll say this - there are some very interesting bits in Giantslayer. The siege of Trunau, the mysteries aboard the ship in Book 2, the exploration of a fey pocket dimension - there are some really cool ideas in here. It's not like the books were without merit, it's just that the hook didn't really grab me, even if I liked a few of the verses.

[captain yesterday]

Maybe it's Orcs.

[Hayato Ken]

Orcs were also in Giantslayer.
While Giantslayer is well done, it´s not really spectacular or outstanding.
Old school is overrated, especially in the light of everyone understanding something different there, up to different genres and times. I just had a big discussion with some 50+ year old players about that term and for them it´s not about dungeons, dragons, giants or whatever, but more a style of play, mainly the absence of a clear plot and story. Instead the players are supposed to develop that somehow.

Something that should also not be forgotten are modules.
There´s several modules catering to stuff like orcs, dungeons, etc.
Unfortunately none for Tian Xia.

[Gorbacz]

Hayato Ken wrote:

Orcs were also in Giantslayer.

While Giantslayer is well done, it´s not really spectacular or outstanding.
Old school is overrated, especially in the light of everyone understanding something different there, up to different genres and times. I just had a big discussion with some 50+ year old players about that term and for them it´s not about dungeons, dragons, giants or whatever, but more a style of play, mainly the absence of a clear plot and story. Instead the players are supposed to develop that somehow.

Something that should also not be forgotten are modules.
There´s several modules catering to stuff like orcs, dungeons, etc.
Unfortunately none for Tian Xia.

In the context of D&D, "old school" means a combination of:

- streamlined rulesets (no splatbooks),
- balance? what's balance?
- no weaboo wuxia anime video game 'fighter does anything apart swinging his/her sword' bull,
- strong GM control over the game (no magic items for you unless the adventure says so etc.),
- adventures focused on combat and dungeon crawling,
- strong adherence to genre tropes (Paladins must be LG, it's Orcs->Ogres->Giants->Dragons).

and it is far from overrated, given what runaway success 5e is with "old school" folks.

[Dragon78]

Maybe, just maybe, it is a dragon focused AP:)

[j b 200]

why can't it be PaizoCon already!!

[Hayato Ken]

There we go^^

Some of that stuff can seriously get off my lawn. I don´t think Pathfinder going back to the dark ages would be a good idea.
Also are those the same people singing the old "OP, bloat, powercreep" song with every book that came out after the CRB?
I feel going after what other games do there wouldn´t be a wise decision and it´s surely nothing an AP does. Paizo focusing on making even better APs and exploring Golarion more seems way better to me.

[Lord Fyre]

captain yesterday wrote:

Maybe it's Orcs.

An AP set in Tian Xia could easily feature the long neglected Hobgoblins as the low level opponent.

[James Jacobs]

I never cease to be amused at how folks dig in to every little word we drop to try to interpret anything we type as clues as to the future.

Makes it hard for us to use certain words.

Like trombone.

Or parasite.

Or plastic.

Or thunderhead.

Or wrangle.

Or tension.

Or bow. (The one that rhymes with drow.)

Or bow. (The one that doesn't rhyme with drow.)

Or phantom-powered dreadnought-launching mountains. Now admittedly, that last one is several words. But you get my point.

Steps back to cackle at the mayhem to follow...

[Eliandra Giltessan]

James Jacobs wrote:

I never cease to be amused at how folks dig in to every little word we drop to try to interpret anything we type as clues as to the future.

Makes it hard for us to use certain words.

Like trombone.

Or parasite.

Or plastic.

Or thunderhead.

Or wrangle.

Or tension.

Or bow. (The one that rhymes with drow.)

Or bow. (The one that doesn't rhyme with drow.)

Or phantom-powered dreadnought-launching mountains. Now admittedly, that last one is several words. But you get my point.

Steps back to cackle at the mayhem to follow...

Well, it's the age of lost omens. We do the best we can.