Cayden Cailean

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Goblin Squad Member. 939 posts (1,030 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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@Dragoncat, nice character concept. Experiencing the world beyond would definitely be an eye opening experience. Would she keep her preconceived notions about the other races, or manage to overcome the xenophobia of her people.

The original two trilogies (Chronicles and Legends) are what I would consider the core essence of Dragonlance, everything other than that is pretty much optional.


Hey Lancers, wanted to hop in and provide some communication. We are going through a transition period at work and I have had to work extra days, including alternating hours, which has been something of a struggle, and left me without the time and energy to devote to gaming. But the GM has been on an interview frenzy and it seems we will have some new folks in the next couple weeks, at which point my schedule will return to stability and normality.

Consider this in a bit of hibernation at the moment. When the time comes for things to kick off in earnest, I will start a brand new thread for the campaign. Until then, discussion can continue and I will be happy to answer any questions or give thoughts on ideas.

Est Solarus oth Mithas


Hello folks, apologies for the dearth of updates. I had to pivot my D&D time and focus to preparing an in person mini adventure for a friend of mine who is about to leave and move halfway across the country to go get married. That has now concluded and I will return my focus to this project.


Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

DL dark elves are not drow.

3.5 DL elves have ekf vision which is both low light abd dark vision

I am aware, they are outcasts, Dalamar of course being the most famous dark elf. I was using the example to explain ultravision as it existed in AD&D. And yes, 3.5 Dragonlance elves have "Elvensight" which encompasses both low-light vision and 30 feet of darkvision. Nonetheless I was speaking specifically of dwarves with the changeover in vision post 3E. Standard elves didn't get darkvision until 5E, when they removed the 3E/4E concept of "low-light vision" (good riddance if you ask me).


Terevalis I was wondering when I was going to see you around these parts.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

I've never had the opportunity to play Dragonlance, but I'll say the novels and the RPGs clearly diverge on a couple points then.

1) In the Dwarven Nations trilogy, it's clear that magic and dwarves don't go together. No Clerics, no Wizards. With that said, I'm all good with your rules on this.

2) No problem.

3) No problem.

4) In the Dwarven Nations Trilogy, only the Dark Dwarf clans can see in the dark. Again, no problem, I was just wanting to understand how you'll be running this.

5) No problem.

6) No problem.

Query: Never having played 5E, can you suggest a free PC Generator website, app, or download for 5E characters? I don't need access to all of the bells and whistles of splat books, etc. I'm fine with a very basic character for my first time at 5E. Which is why I like some of the rules - no multi classing, etc, that will simplify the PC making process this time through.

I have read nearly all of the Weis/Hickman material, and some of the side novels. I have not read the Dwarven Nations trilogy, but I have a feeling that the author may have played a bit fast and loose with the lore. There are many canonical examples of dwarven clerics in the setting, Jasper Fireforge, a cleric of Reorx who later becomes a mystic of the Citadel of Light, is a rather big one. Thiewar dwarf wizards are absolutely canonical as well, they belong to an order called the Obsidian Circle. Also, in both 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D, it specifically lists clerics/priests of the Holy Orders of the Stars (usually Reorx) as a playable option for dwarves.

In AD&D (the timeframe in which the Dwarven Nations trilogy was written) dwarves and elves and the like had an ability called infravision, but dark elves and dark dwarves and other such deep dwelling races often had what is called ultravision, which is a superior form of vision in the dark, as opposed to the more limited nature of infravision. When the 3E switch happened and ever since, dwarves just have normal darkvision (in both game and fiction), and dark dwarves have and extended range of said darkvision.

I've never used it, but I remember hearing about something called 5E Tools, that might be something worth looking into.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

Query:

1) In your 5E vision of Dragonlance, are Dwarves still magic-less?

2) No multi classing at all?

3) Are there distinctions between the Dwarf and Elf subtypes mechanically? Gully? Hmmm, with a Kender, and a Gnome being discussed, adding a Gully might make for an Island of Misfit Toys.

4) In Dragonlance, only few Dwarves have Darkvision. How will that play out here?

5) Centaur?

6) What are the mechanics of being a Knight of Solamnia? In older versions they were Prestige Classes, and not necessarily convenient ones to get into. It was also clunky, when one considers that one might move from one Order to another.

1. Depends on what you mean by magic-less, dwarven clerics are very common (especially of the Daewar clan). And while rare, its not unheard of for a Klar clan dwarf to become a druid, usually focused upon mountains and the "living earth". If you are specifically referring to dwarves becoming wizards, there are virtually no dwarven wizards as a societal rule. A dwarf can technically pursue wizardry, but faces being shunned for doing so. Only the evil dark dwarf clan of Theiwar does not follow this philosophy, wizards of the black robes are pretty common for them.

2. No multiclassing.

3. Mechanically, all of the 4 playable dwarf clans (Hylar, Daewar, Klar, and Neidar) will use the extra hit points of the Dwarven Toughness feature found under Hill Dwarf (and every character uses the +2/+1 rule from Tashas). For elves, Qualinesti and Silvanesti use the High Elf subrace, and Kagonesti use the Wood Elf subrace. No gully dwarves.

4. In every edition of D&D that has featured Dragonlance (1E, 2E, 3E, 5E) dwarves are played with their abilities straight out of the Players Handbook, in 1E/2E they had infravision, in 3E/5E they have darkvision. All dwarves have darkvision.

5. No centaur.

6. Becoming a Knight of Solamnia will require special roleplaying, upon gaining new status, whether officially becoming a Knight of Solamnia, or hypothetically one down the road rising to the rank of Lord Knight of their order, I will offer the character a boon of some sort, this might be a special magic item that is bequeathed and rewarded to the knight, or could come in the form of an extraordinary or supernatural capability.


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Hey gang, I am going to take some time to prepare things for the game. When campaign preparations are finalized I will start a new thread for official campaign recruitment. That will likely occur next week. Keep an eye out and long live the lance.


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Sargon Starbright wrote:

Are there good elf stats to look at somewhere?

I feel like I remember a bunch of 3.5 stuff a long time ago.

Elf lore or elf stats? For stats you would just use the Elf race from the PHB with the High Elf subrace. There was a whole line of Dragonlance sourcebooks from the 3.5 era, including one called Races of Ansalon that delved into all the inhabitants of the setting.

Dorian 'Grey' wrote:

Reading this Thread has really brought up some fun memories of our days exploring krynn.

One of my favorite places to play.

Unfortunately, I am not a big fan of 5e, but I may peek in just for nostalgia sake...

Have fun! Definitely would go with a Wizard...

I'm glad you enjoyed the timeline and discussion, a shame you wont potentially be joining us. As far as wizards go, Dragonlance is about as iconic as you can get.


Humans also get the +2/+1, so fret not brotherguiness.

Lol, 25 years old sounds perfect critzible. The one thing I did not see amongst the stat block was Ralphs alignment.

So I have to wonder, upon reading the following from your background:

"You are in frequent contact with people in the segment of society that your chosen quarries move through. These people might be associated with the criminal underworld, the rough-and-tumble folk of the streets, or members of high society. This connection comes in the form of a contact in any city you visit, a person who provides information about the people and places of the local area."

I wonder if perhaps Ralph might be in league with, or an aspiring member of, the Legion of Steel. The Legion was the first thing I thought of when I read that.


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Hello folks, work has been pretty crazy of late. I'm glad to see the interest in this forges on. When the time comes I get my ducks in a row, I will make a new thread for official recruitment.

Ok, lets take stock of what we have.

Human Bard of Branchala
Tinker Gnome Artificer
Kender Fighter (Champion)
Silvanesti Elf Wizard
Human Paladin (Oath of Devotion) - aspirant Knight of Solamnia

@critzible sounds like a solid concept there, I imagine he is underestimated by his potential prey a good amount of the time.

@Sargon you are saying one of the extended royal family had a dalliance with a known and avowed dark elf? *gasp*

@brother_guiness I love it, a proper Knight of Solamnia in the making! What patron deity would your paladin follow, are you more a Paladine man or a Kiri-Jolith one?


Albion, The Eye wrote:

Kazun had always been an idealist, getting into trouble more often than not, and feeling his bulk and size would be best fit in lending assistance to other, smaller calves who could not stand up for themselves. This idealism and a misplaced sense of honor drove him into doing like many of his kin, joining in the fight against the enemies of his nation without a second thought, only to be defeated and taken captive at Flotsam. His sentence - indentured servitude to those he tried to hurt - is now at an end. Five long years of learning the minotaur race is not superior, but equal to the others of Ansalon. What will he do with his life? He carries the mark of the convict, and that should be enough to prove he has paid the price for his crimes, and should now be allowed a second chance to prove himself. Will that be the case, or will he be shunned at every turn? (just an example, using a Minotaur. Perfectly understand if it does not fit the campaign style)

Would this work, or would you be expecting a fully fleshed character background?

Man, everyone is on a minotaur kick, lol. This is a great character background, I do not require novels for backstories, just that you know who the character is and where they came from, and perhaps an idea on where they want to go.

This character concept could possibly pursue being a paladin of Kiri-Jolith, he has taken an interest in sponsoring honorable noble-hearted minotaurs in order to be an alternative to Sargas. I will say though that the Knights of Solamnia still follow the bylaws that a member must be human or half-human. But the Legion of Steel very possibly could be interested. I like how you tied the story to the timeline event of the attempted minotaur conquering of Flotsam.

If this became something viable and there are enough folks interested, my thought was to run a combination of modules, probably some of the D&D starter set and/or essentials box, mixed with some others, and go from there. For placement I was thinking Abanasinia, I am of two minds on the exact location, one being the classic Solace, but Solace is so detailed, defined, and built up nowadays, the Legion of Steel is headquartered there, the Knights of Solamnia have a regiment stationed there and stand as honor guard of the Tomb of the Last Heroes, an archmage makes his home there and is at the Inn almost every night, it is very safe. The other would be the town of Digfel, which I feel would be a good equivalent to Phandalin, a small settlement with a connection to mining. Although it could be fun to start in Solace and then travel to Digfel on the business of a couple of hill dwarf brothers looking for a long lost mine.


Codanous wrote:

I've been kicking around an idea for a Human Twilight Cleric of Lunitari. Red robes over heavy armor, handles maintaining the imbalance created by evil sorcerers.

but I can't really quite get a full idea going.

I keep it traditional with the moon gods, they do not sponsor divine spellcasting followers, their province is solely in the realm of wizardry. Also depending on what you mean by "sorcerers" (meaning spontaneous casters who do not use a spellbook, rather than shorthand for the "Wizards of High Sorcery") they do not exist in this timeline. Wizards are the only arcane casters.

I will post the gods list from the Age of Dragons link in the thread for full clarity.

Deities of Kyrnn

Gods of Good

Paladine: (Head of the Pantheon of Light) LG God of Protection, Leadership, Nobility, Light, Redemption, Hope, Good Dragons
Kiri-Jolith: LG God of Courage, Honor, Valor, Brotherhood, Unity, Righteous Battle
Habbakuk: NG God of Travel, Exploration, Animals, Rebirth, Hunting, Perseverance
Mishakal: NG Goddess of Healing, Restortion, Mercy, Fertility, Hearth, Compassion
Branchala: CG God of Inspiration, Revelry, Music, Harmony, Poetry, Beauty
Vydonia: CG Goddess of Luck, Freedom, Wanderers, Dreams, Stars

Gods of Neutrality

Gilean: (Head of the Pantheon of Balance) LN God of Knowledge, Time, Prophecy, Wisdom, Balance, Enlightenment, Watchfulness
Shinare: LN Goddess of Industry, Trade, Communication, Wealth, Contracts
Chislev: N Goddess of Nature, Wilderness, Weather, Beasts, the Seasons
Reorx: N God of Creation, Crafting, Invention, Skill, Mountains, Metal
Aelaeus: CN God of Intrigue, Mysteries, Shadows, Trickery, Humor, Wine
Sirrion: CN God of Creativity, Fire, Passion, Renewal, Transformation, Alchemy

Gods of Evil

Takhisis: (Head of the Pantheon of Darkness) LE Goddess of Tyranny, Dominion, Subjugation, Hatred, Night, Evil Dragons
Sargonnas: LE God of Vengeance, War, Conquest, Wrath, Retribution
Chemosh: NE God of Death, Murder, Corruption, False Hope, the Undead
Morgion: NE God of Disease, Famine, Poison, Vermin, Suffering, Madness
Hiddukel: CE God of Greed, Lies, Secrets, Exploitation, Banditry
Zeboim: CE Goddess of Oceans, Storms, Strife, Jealousy, Spite

Gods of Magic (No Clerics)

Solonari: LG Moon God of Good Magic and the Order of White Robe Wizards
Lunitari: LN Moon Goddess of Neutral Magic and the Order of Red Robe Wizards
Nuitari: LE Moon God of Evil Magic and the Order of Black Robe Wizards


Possible characters mentioned thus far:

Human Bard of Branchala
Minotaur Monk or Gnome Artificer
Kender Fighter
Irda (Something)

I will say, given the setting, I am somewhat surprised by the lack of potential knights and robed wizards proposed.


Critzible wrote:
Do Kender get the +2 to one stat and +1 to another

Indeed, everyone does. If we were doing it the old school way where stat bonuses are determined by race, Kenders would get a +2 Dex, +1 Cha


Since someone mentioned they were considering playing a kender, here are the kender racial statistics.

Kender

Age. A kender reaches adulthood around the age of 20. They can live for over a century.

Alignment. Most kender are chaotic good. As a rule, they are good-hearted and kind, hate to see others in pain, and have no tolerance for oppression.

Size. Kender stand between 3 1/2 and 4 feet tall and average about 60-70 pounds. Your size is Small.

Speed. Your base walking speed is 25 feet.

Curious. Kender have an innate curiosity and extreme difficulty resisting picking locks, be they on chests, doors, jail cells, or chambers filled with monsters, as well as searching pouches, seeking interesting trinkets, curios, and knickknacks. You have proficiency with thieves' tools and the Sleight of Hand skill.

Fearless. Kender are immune to fear, be it from dragon, undead, magic, or otherwise. The rare times they actually feel something akin to fear it is described as an odd sensation in their stomach (which was probably just something they ate), that is usually only felt if their friends or family are in very perilous situations. You cant be frightened.

Kender Pouches. As an action, you can make a roll on the Kender Pouches Table to see what’s in your pouches. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your dexterity modifier. You regain all expended uses upon completing a long rest. Also when you initially create your character, roll 1d6, you may roll this many times on the Trinkets table, gaining each item rolled, rerolling any duplicates.

Lack of Focus. Kender are easily distracted and have a general lack of focus that plagues their species. You have disadvantage on Constitution saving throws to maintain concentration on a spell.

Nimbleness. You can move through the space of any creature that is of a size larger than yours.

Taunt. You have an uncanny insight into the motivations and sentiments of other races, and you can use this insight to infuriate them. As a bonus action, you can force a target to make a Charisma saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier. On a failed save, the target becomes enraged with you. Until the start of your next turn, all attacks targeting anyone other than you are made with disadvantage. This anger also causes the target to move recklessly. If the target must move in order to attack you they may not take the disengage action until the start of your next turn. At the end of each of its turns, the target can make another Charisma saving throw. On a success, the taunt effect ends on the target. You may use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1). You regain all expended uses of this feature upon completing a long rest.

Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Kenderspeak.

For the other races, Qualinesti and Silvanesti use the high elf statistics, Kagonesti use the wood elf statistics. All 4 of the dwarven clans (Hylar, Daewar, Klar, and Neidar) gain the dwarven toughness feature from the hill dwarf. As previously mentioned humans use variant human. And remember race/subrace does not determine your starting stat bonuses, everyone gains a +2 and a +1 of their choosing.

Tinker gnomes use the "rock gnome" subrace and add the following features:

Guild Affiliation. You are affiliated with a guild of your choice. While there are hundreds or even thousands of guilds, they all fall under one of three major guild categories. Choose one of the following guild categories. You may add your proficiency bonus when working with any of the tool sets in that category. Furthermore, based on the guild category you choose, you may double your proficiency bonus when working with one set of artisan’s tools of your choice.

Craft Guild: Weaver’s tools, Painter’s supplies, Potter’s tools, Leatherworker’s tools, Smith’s tools, Woodcarver’s tools

Technical Guild: Carpenter’s tools, Glassblower’s tools, Mason’s tools, Tinker’s tools, Cobbler’s tools

Sage Guild: Alchemist’s supplies, Brewer’s supplies, Calligrapher’s supplies, Cartographer’s tools, Cook’s utensils, Jeweler’s tools

Life Quest. You have a life quest that has been handed down to you from previous generations. This life quest informs every major (and even some minor) decisions that you make. As a result of the all consuming nature of your life quest, it’s very difficult to dissuade you from whatever course of action you have decided upon. Therefore, you add your proficiency bonus on all saving throws made to resist attempts to change your mind, whether magical (as in the charm spell) or mundane (such as Charisma checks (Intimidation or Persuasion)).


For those who haven't taken the 30-40 mins to read the entire timeline, I should probably give a general overview of what it entails.

The world has known relative peace for 40 years now since the end of the Chaos War, Solamnia is a united whole as a kingdom under its new king for the last 15 years, Drakas Solamnus, paladin of Paladine and Knight of Solamnia. Its dark counterpart, the nation of Neraka, has also grown strong in the intervening years, under the arm of the Dark Knights of Neraka, in its national capital of Sanction. Also having seen a great resurgence is the Empire of Ergoth, which has grown to a strength and prosperity not seen since prior to the Cataclysm. There is a tenuous peace between the 3 great powers, or perhaps one might say the stalemate of a cold war. (As national entities, Solamnia is LG, Ergoth is LN, and Neraka is LE)

The elves have also taken back the reigns of their destiny, Qualinesti is thriving under Speaker of the Sun Gilthanas Kanan and his consort Silvara, and has full fledged alliances with the humans of Solamnia and the dwarves of Kayolin, as well as being on good terms with the Legion of Steel in Abanasinia. Silvanesti too has solidified, although now finds itself surrounded by enemies near its borders (the ogres and dark dwarves to the north, and the tarmak brutes to the southwest) and traditionally brooks no allies with the other nations of Ansalon, preferring to keep to themselves.

The mountain dwarves have had a tumultuous time, having lost the realm of Thorbardin in an attack by the great wyrm red dragon Cinder leading a host of goblinoids, draconians, and other red dragons to invade the mountain. The surviving light-loving mountain dwarves of Thorbardin all relocated to the prosperous mountain dwarf realm of Kayolin which borders Solamnia, whilst the evil dark dwarves have consolidated in the reconstituted realm of Thoradin in the east.

The kender have a new home, the island of Cristyne, nestled right in between the islands of Sancrist and Southern Ergoth. A treaty brokered by Solamnia made this possible after the Empire of Ergoth decided it wanted to claim its entire island of Northern Ergoth as their own.

The gnomes are the gnomes, happily tinkering away under Mt Nevermind for their entire lives and pursuing their Life Quests.


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The races list was chosen as it was to convey an old school D&D feel, and also for the fact that I place a high value on the verisimilitude of a setting. Most peoples experiences with minotaurs have been not good ones, either being raided or pirated from them, ergo a minotaur walking up to a human town is likely going to be barred from entry. Think of what Drizzt experienced for his first 20 years on the surface.

Just out of curiosity, what are your character concepts for the minotaur and the irda? Dazzle me with creativity and we'll see.

I will say, for people mulling over possible characters, I am most drawn to heroic natures and to classical archetypes. If one considers what that entails for Dragonlance, therein lies the sweet spot.


A bit of interest, good good. A bard of Branchala sounds like a great character.

Minotaurs in the setting, yes. Minotaurs as PCs, no. :)


Hello folks, for the better part of a decade I have worked on a project, an idea for an alternate timeline originally presented in one of the 3.5 Dragonlance sourcebooks. The concept for said timeline is that at the end of the Chaos War, Takhisis doesn't steal the world. The gods aren't missing, magic doesn't disappear, there are no bloated alien dragon overlords, instead the world progresses naturally from the culmination of the Chaos War forward. I have taken this timeline, sculpted it, expanded it, honed it, and put an inordinate about of time, research, and effort into it. I give to you...

The Age of Dragons

Which brings me to here, I have been pondering on possibly running a game utilizing my work, and I wanted to gauge on whether there would be interest in such or not. Right now this is merely a hypothetical, but its good to see what potential there may be. The campaign would start in 423 AC, 40 years after the Chaos War. The game would be 5th Edition D&D.

Available Races: Human (civilized or nomadic), Elf (Qualinesti, Silvanesti, or Kagonesti), Dwarf (Hylar, Daewar, Klar, or Neidar), Gnome, Kender, Half-Elf

Available Classes:
Barbarian - Ancestral Guardian, Berserker, Totem Warrior, Zealot, Battlerager (Dwarf Only)
Bard - (Requires Patron Deity) - Creation, Eloquence, Glamour, Lore, Spirits, Swords, Valor
Cleric - (Requires Patron Deity) - Forge, Grave, Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Order, Peace, Tempest, Trickery, Twilight, War
Druid - (Requires Patron Deity) - Dreams, Land, Moon, Shepherd, Stars, Wildfire
Fighter - Banneret, Battle Master, Cavalier, Champion
Monk - Drunken Master, Kensei, Open Hand
Paladin - (Requires Patron Deity) - Ancients, Crown, Devotion, Glory, Redemption, Watchers
Ranger - (Requires Patron Deity) - Beast Master, Drakewarden, Fey Wanderer, Gloom Stalker, Horizon Walker, Hunter, Monster Slayer
Rogue - Assassin, Inquisitive, Mastermind, Scout, Swashbuckler, Thief
Wizard - (Requires passing the Test of High Sorcery before level 5 to be admitted to join the fabled Orders of High Sorcery and not be branded a renegade) - Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Transmutation, Scribes, War Magic, Bladesinging (Qualinesti/Silvanesti Elf Only)
Artificer - (Tinker Gnome Only - this class is wholly technological and nonmagical, every time a 1st level or higher "spell" is cast, roll a d20, on a roll of 1 a mishap occurs and roll on mishap table) - Alchemist, Armorer, Artillerist, Battle Smith

Available Alignments: Any non-evil, good (preferred), neutral (permitted)

Spells Available sources are Players Handbook, Xanathars Guide, and Tashas Cauldron

Stats Everyone would use the set of 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, as well as the Tashas rule of choose a +2 and a +1 to a stat of your choice

Optional Rules Feats: yes, multiclassing: no. All humans use the "variant human" statistics. I am also open to letting someone be a nomadic human of the barbarian tribes who uses the goliath racial abilities instead of the human ones.

Some notes: Bards function essentially as specialty priests of art, music, and creativity in the way druids are specialty priests of nature. Bards tap into the primordial Song of Creation first sung by Branchala at the dawn of time. And no one can ever mistake a bard for any other kind of spellcaster as a bard must be singing or performing musically in some manner as a component to cast their spells. While any god can sponsor a bard, the 3 deities who are most apt to utilize bard followers are Branchala (for good bards), Sirrion (for neutral bards), and Hiddukel (for evil bards), although Gilean has a number of bards who specialize in being loremasters as venerators, and Kiri-Jolith has some College of Valor bards that serve him.

As noted, Artificers are gnome only, and wholly technological, which would require some creativity on the players part to properly roleplay that (coming up with the gadgets, contraptions, widgets, etc that produce the "magical" effects).

Factions one may with to join or pursue, Knights of Solamnia, Legion of Steel, Wizards of High Sorcery, Holy Orders of the Stars, Brass Tigers Mercenary Company

If you are needing a refresher on Krynnish geography, here is a good map of Ansalon for you to peruse.


David Schwartz wrote:

I once had a bad reaction to a (prescribed) drug: it made me angry all the time. It's one of the experiences that made me realize that free will is not as free or willful as most people think. But it also shaped how I view orcs these days. Orcs were created by their gods to be warriors, they are innately ferocious. When you're angry all the time, it's easy to be chaotic evil. Even if an orc chooses to be lawful or good, they still have to either subsume or refocus that anger. (I suppose one might compare it to the many versions of the Incredible Hulk.)

In the same way humans are the baseline for ability scores, I think of humans as the baseline for alignment. We have both good and evil, lawful and chaotic instincts. Fantasy races with alignment tendencies diverge from "human nature" in meaningful ways. Dwarves don't have as strong a desire for individuality (thus a lawful alignment and a Charisma penalty). Elves live long enough that permanence is less important to them (thus a tendency to chaos). Whether good or evil, by humans standards, goblins never stop being precocious children (and thus devoid of other influences go Lord of the Flies).

Well said David, you have expertly surmised how I view fantasy settings. I think the core of the discussion falls to the age old nature vs nurture debate, and I would say for D&D its generally about 25% nature, 75% nurture.


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Firstly, I just want to say really awesome blog piece, it hearkens to a lovely classic feel, a quality that made RotR as popular and everlasting as it has been.

Into the other matter, the culture of a given race is really what the determining factor is. The vast majority of orcs are CE because their culture celebrates and demands that. Now, in the case of an orc baby whos found in the woods and raised at a monastery, well his alignment could be just about anything, because he has been allowed to grow without the demands placed upon him by his racial culture.

Thats really what it all boils down to, demons are always THIS alignment because they are outsiders with an intrinsic creation that specifies such, humanoids aren't bound by such rules, but generally follow the culture of their racial norms. Its also why if you totally deconstruct the monolith, then everything just becomes "Humans with funny X", and thats doing a disservice to good worldbuilding.


captain yesterday wrote:

Not to be That Guy, but why not just get the pocket edition.

The price is right.

A fair question. Its really just a matter of matching the rest of the collection. I dont own any of the pocket editions.


Rysky wrote:
Don’t get cheaper than “unavailable”.

I'm well aware of its status on the Paizo site. I'm speaking of its accessibility through other avenues. It's usually priced for well over $200.

PFRPGrognard wrote:
Yeah, the secondary market prices are outrageous. I just shamelessly sold my collector's edition hardcover for over $300. No doubt the prices will drop once the pocket editions hit the shelves.

Indeed, that is the hope my friend, we shall see.


I hope this release causes the prices of the hardcover to plummet. I was neck deep in 5E land when this came out and never ended up picking up a copy, a mistake I would like to rectify. Here's hoping they will be back down to a reasonable $60 or so after this comes out.


Apologies I never responded to your comment way back when Shalafi, unfortunately that Dragonlance campaign petered out after a few months.

How have you been, having any good Dragonlance adventures?

That goes for anyone else as well, long live the lance!


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Upon further contemplation, I have decided that if Paizo addresses the situation, and the feedback therein, and puts together an action plan for a solution to the matter, I will eagerly purchase this book in order to support good positive business practices.

If they choose to stay silent on the matter, or offer only conciliatory regards with no plan of resolution or redevelopment, that will likely draw to a close my 8 year relationship with Paizo and Pathfinder.

I have always celebrated this company for its openness and willingness to converse with its playerbase (especially via forum interactions), but if they ultimately prove unwilling to address things of this nature, it might constitute a shift in company practices to a direction that would deem my future support unwarranted. I hope the opposite will prove true.

This ultimately may mean very little, as I stated in my last post I haven't played Pathfinder in a while, and the last Pathfinder product I purchased was a roughly a year ago. Perhaps the resolution to this and my subsequent purchase of the book would reinvigorate my Pathfinder spirit, after all blazing infernos start from the smallest kindling. But I figured it best to proverbially put my money where my mouth is.

Good day all.


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Rysky wrote:
Gambit wrote:

I have been delving into the vast realm of other RPGs of late, trying out more obscure titles like Mythras and The One Ring, as well as playing in a 5E campaign, thus I haven't played Pathfinder in quite a while (nor have I been on these forums in a while either), but I had heard of this warrior shapeshifter class through the grapevine a little while back and the prospect of it made me a bit excited, I thought to myself "that sounds fun, it might be time to fire back up some Pathfinder again".

The book comes out and I happen to be at my FLGS one day, so I pull it off the shelf to peruse (as I always do before a purchase), and flip straight to the Shifter, excited to delve into this new class, this new possibility. And then I read it, and the excitement leaves me, replaced by a sense of apathy, apathy not just for the class, but for any thought of reigniting Pathfinder in my RPG life. I put the book back on the shelf and leave the store with it unpurchased.

Was there melancholy music playing and a Ravenous Tumbleweed rolling behind you as you walked away?

Heh, negative, but I would have loved the symbolism of such an occurrence. I only mentioned it because something random brought me to the site today (I googled something regarding the Card Game), clicked on this thread, read a bit of the feedback, saw someone say something to the effect of "if you dont voice your opinion, you are irrelevant", not a viewpoint I agree with, but figured I would share my experience on the matter nonetheless.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have been delving into the vast realm of other RPGs of late, trying out more obscure titles like Mythras and The One Ring, as well as playing in a 5E campaign, thus I haven't played Pathfinder in quite a while (nor have I been on these forums in a while either), but I had heard of this warrior shapeshifter class through the grapevine a little while back and the prospect of it made me a bit excited, I thought to myself "that sounds fun, it might be time to fire back up some Pathfinder again".

The book comes out and I happen to be at my FLGS one day, so I pull it off the shelf to peruse (as I always do before a purchase), and flip straight to the Shifter, excited to delve into this new class, this new possibility. And then I read it, and the excitement leaves me, replaced by a sense of apathy, apathy not just for the class, but for any thought of reigniting Pathfinder in my RPG life. I put the book back on the shelf and leave the store with it unpurchased.

Goblin Squad Member

Reposting my previous message.

I backed this Kickstarter at the $100 level and added another $85 in add ons (which I never specified, so Im guessing they could be used for whatever you want), but never played as I lost interest in the game direction (I kind of excitedly jumped in at "Pathfinder Video Game" at the time of the KS without really considering that FFA PVP is a game mechanic I just dont enjoy). So anyway I have a fresh account up for sale for any interested parties.

Send me an offer, we'll work something out.


Thanks TOZ.

Kind of a shame actually, I've really gotten into the DCC RPG lately, we had a blast with the character funnel especially, I would definitely have picked this up had it been for their system (plus I am a sucker for box sets, as my 2E AD&D collection attests). Perhaps they will do a Kickstarter to update this at some point.


I'm assuming this is a 3.5 module and not for the DCC RPG, correct?


Vic my good sir, any news on this coming back into stock?


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Gambit wrote:
Crafting, Profession, and Performance are all list as "Var" which means it Varies on which is its governing stat. Each one will be based on the individual chosen subskill. For example smithing will be Str based, painting and other forms of artistry will be Dex based, alchemy will be Int based, etc. Same goes for profession, sage will be Int based, farmer will be Wis based, courtesan will be Cha based, etc. As for Performance, singing, acting, comedy, and oratory will all be Cha based, whereas the instrument ones will be Dex based.

I know you're just giving some examples and will probably handle each skill case by case, but I want to argue some your examples.

You're going Str for smithing, but I believe that Int is still the best choice. I am an electrician by trade (not quite the same, I know), and while having strength, agility, and endurance are all helpful, the very best electricians are the smart ones. A good blacksmith would need those same physical qualities, but a truly great blacksmith would need to be smart to master the techniques.

I would also be inclined to keep the Performance skills with Cha. I am also a musician. Fine motor skills are a must, so Dex makes some sense. But when I think about music with beauty, depth, meaning, etc. it comes down more to the ability of the composer of performer to express themselves. You don't need to be able to play the guitar fast to move people. You need to be able to express yourself. Its just that if you have clumsy fingers you probably be able to clearly express yourself. Composing music is also about expression, but intelligence and wisdom would play a factor instead of dexterity.

For Profession, I think there is more room for changing around the ability score, but I would still tend go with Wisdom as a default.

Maybe for some of these skills you assign a single ability score. When the player wants to do something, you think about it for a second and decide which ability score will be used based on the circumstances.

I addressed smithing above good sir, but as for performance, I think you are looking at it just from the perspective of a content creator, and I dont disagree that charisma plays an important aspect in such, but I believe merely playing is based more on those motor skills. And many bards are singing and playing songs that have been around forever, ancient elven ballads, historical dwarven war chants, grand lyrical masterpieces of the old human empire, etc, i.e. stuff they havent created themselves. This is not me trying to disparage musical creativity in the slightest, just provide alternate perspective.


Cyrad wrote:
Wait a minute. Smithing is a Strength-based skill? Have you ever seen the Man at Arms: Reforged series? A smithy isn't a muscle-head that whacks a lump of metal until it shaped the way he wants. Smithing is a mixture of art, science, and engineering. A smith has to know metallurgy, the physics of metal, and other technical knowledge.

I was looking at it as the act of attributing skill points into the skill was learning the training/skill aspect of smithing, and being stronger just generally makes the work go more smoothly.


Gorbacz wrote:
awscott1978 wrote:
I really hope it's Kingmaker because I'm holding off paying $150+ for it in the aftermarket.
PDFs exist!

And sadly do absolutely nothing for a bibliophile.


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Psi51 wrote:
Pathfinder Unchained has two systems that already consolidate some skills . This may not be overly helpful to you and it does group skills a bit differently.

I am indeed aware of Pathfinder Unchained. :)


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I've been going about reworking the Pathfinder skill list, expanding and consolidating some here and there, while keeping things grounded in verisimilitude and internal consistency, and I wanted to share and get some outside opinions on it. I will go over my thoughts on each skill removed and added. First the list:

Acrobatics (Dex) (Armor Check Penalty)
Animal Handling (Wis) (Trained Only)
Arcane Lore (Int) (Trained Only)
Athletics (Str) (Armor Check Penalty)
Crafting (Var)
Cultural Lore (Int) (Trained Only)
Deception (Cha)
Device Handling (Dex) (Trained Only) (Armor Check Penalty)
Engineering (Int) (Trained Only)
Healing (Wis)
Historical Lore (Int) (Trained Only)
Insight (Wis)
Intimidation (Cha)
Linguistics (Int) (Trained Only)
Mercantile (Wis) (Trained Only)
Natural Lore (Int) (Trained Only)
Perception (Wis)
Performance (Var)
Persuasion (Cha)
Planar Lore (Int) (Trained Only)
Profession (Var) (Trained Only)
Religious Lore (Int) (Trained Only)
Riding (Dex)
Sleight of Hand (Dex) (Trained Only) (Armor Check Penalty)
Spellcraft (Int) (Trained Only)
Stealth (Dex) (Armor Check Penalty)
Survival (Wis)

Now I'll go into each skill that got removed or changed and my thoughts behind the process.

Appraise: Folded into a new skill called Mercantile so as to widen its value, Mercantile covers appraising as well as all aspects of running a business and the practices therein.
Bluff and Disguise: Rolled into a single Deception skill.
Climb and Swim: Rolled into a single Athletics skill along with taking jumping from Acrobatics.
Diplomacy: Renamed to Persuasion.
Disable Device: Renamed Device Handling so that it doesn't seem so fixated on only breaking things, but is clear that it can also be used to fix thing or alter things.
Escape Artist: Folded into Acrobatics. Can attempt either an Acrobatics or Athletics check to escape bonds, depending on whether you are trying to slip free or brute force it.
Fly: Folded into Acrobatics (to be honest, this skill doesn't come up very often in our games, we lean somewhat old school and generally handle flying as it was in 3E and earlier, with occasional exceptions).
Knowledge Dungeoneering: This is described as covering "aberrations, caverns, oozes, and spelunking". Aberrations and oozes are moved to Arcane Lore, caverns to Natural Lore, and spelunking to Survival.
Knowledge Geography: Covers "lands, terrain, climate, people", this is divided between Natural Lore and Survival, expect for "people" which goes to Cultural Lore.
Knowledge Local: Renamed Cultural Lore with the intention of broadening its aspects and uses.
Knowledge Nobility: Folded into Cultural Lore.
Knowledge Planes: Renamed Planar Lore, I have pondered on folding this into Religious Lore though (possibly then renaming it to Divine Lore), but I think its probably distinct enough to merit its own skill.
Sense Motive: Renamed to Insight.
Use Magic Device: Folded into Spellcraft, with the exception that if you have the Trapfinding class feature you may use Device Handling to use magical devices (this lets the Rogue keep its classical niche and has the beneficial byproduct of somewhat buffing trapfinding, a feature that some have found lacking).

Other notes:

Crafting, Profession, and Performance are all list as "Var" which means it Varies on which is its governing stat. Each one will be based on the individual chosen subskill. For example smithing will be Str based, painting and other forms of artistry will be Dex based, alchemy will be Int based, etc. Same goes for profession, sage will be Int based, farmer will be Wis based, courtesan will be Cha based, etc. As for Performance, singing, acting, comedy, and oratory will all be Cha based, whereas the instrument ones will be Dex based.
At one point I had Riding folded into Animal Handling but ultimately decided to reseparate the two as they have different primary purposes and are distinct enough to merit it.
Do you like "Natural Lore", "Nature Lore", or "Wilderness Lore" better? I've gone kinda back and forth on this.

Hit me with any feedback or suggestions you may have.


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I really want to see Second Darkness get the update and simultaneous fix that JJ was talking about.


Iterative attacks.


oyzar wrote:
I think I'm mostly done with mechanics except for gear. Also unsure about what alignment to go with.

Most Kender, like the vast majority, have a good alignment. They are just a cheery and good hearted people.

Shalafi, are you and I the only good aligned proposed characters thus far?


oyzar wrote:
Hmm, I wonder if I should turn my kender into an umbral blade or a dragon fury eventually or if I should just stick with straight rogue. There aren't many advanced rogue talents that excite me, but I would be giving up sneak attack... Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions either way? The flavor of umbral blade speaks about the dark side of the moon, would that mean the dark evil moon for dragonlance?

You should totally go with Kender Handler. :P


F. Castor wrote:
Gambit: Drake Steelwind, ? Male Human (?) Warder (Ordained Defender) 1

Drake Steelwind, LG Male Human (Solamnic) Warder (Ordained Defender) 1


Astinus the Chronicler wrote:
Istar was around but was just a small trading post city.

Indeed, just not the GRAND GOOD HOLY EMPIRE OF ISTAR GOODNESS. :P


Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Gambit wrote:

I am so down, I want to play Drake Steelwind, a Human Knight of Solamnia, a Warder with the Ordained Defender archetype who multiclasses into Cleric of Paladine or Kiri-Jolith, and later on takes the Battle Templar prestige class.

Would doing Quests of Virtue to progress from Crown Knight to Sword Knight to Rose Knight be a component in the game, or would we not delve into personal sidequests to keep the game flowing?

Est Sularus oth Mithas

Remy!

Hello shalafi my old friend, fancy seeing you here. ;)


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Here is a good map of Ansalon before the Cataclysm, the timeframe we are playing in, although this one is from much later, just before the Cataclysm, as I dont believe Istar was around back in the time of the Third Dragon War. You can click on it to zoom in further.

For contrast here is the post Cataclysm map circa the War of the Lance era.


I am so down, I want to play Drake Steelwind, a Human Knight of Solamnia, a Warder with the Ordained Defender archetype who multiclasses into Cleric of Paladine or Kiri-Jolith, and later on takes the Battle Templar prestige class.

Would doing Quests of Virtue to progress from Crown Knight to Sword Knight to Rose Knight be a component in the game, or would we not delve into personal sidequests to keep the game flowing?

Est Sularus oth Mithas


Go with the a versatile warrior/cleric melee badass, Dwarven Ranger 1/Cleric 4/Skyseeker 4. Good skills, good casting, great melee, awesome for this campaign. Use an earthbreaker just for funs.

Goblin Squad Member

I backed this Kickstarter at the $100 level and added another $85 in add ons (which I never specified, so Im guessing they could be used for whatever you want), but never played as I lost interest in the game direction (I kind of excitedly jumped in at "Pathfinder Video Game" at the time of the KS without really considering that FFA PVP is a game mechanic I just dont enjoy). So anyway I have a fresh account up for sale for any interested parties.


Cylerist wrote:
Human Warblade (adapted to PF as best we could)

Do you guys know about Path of War? Its the Pathfinder update to the Tome of Battle.

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