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Like I said ... Lots of people Hate this build and the Idea (myself included)Ironically enough... I have no problem with the build concept. I have used a similar design with an Atomie NPC (Sir Finiwin, the Dragon Knight) in home games. If the ring polymorphed characters into Atomies or some other such flying humanoid creature we'd be all good... though I suspect that it would then cost considerably more.
but it is legal and when you say "you cant make unarmed strikes while in bird form" (even after weve proven that you can time and time again)Except that, you haven't.
you are then just targeting the PCNope. I'm saying that the rules specifically leave what kind of actions are and are not possible for a polymorphed creature to perform to the GM's discretion... and that my personal standard for most games would then be to limit it to things the creature could actually do. Tiny songbirds cannot actually perform humanoid martial arts.
Just as the blog says that most animals cannot wield weapons due to lack of an opposable thumb, so too do much greater variations in skeletal structure prevent songbirds from making unarmed strikes as a humanoid would. Songbird elbow strike? They'd be bending their wing the wrong way and trying to stab you with their feathers. It's just ridiculous.
then I ask you 1 last time ... and until you do I consider this conversation done ... Provide Source that says you can't
Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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It's actually +4/5 to attack/AC (2 size, 2 Dex, 1 natural armor).
And in the module we were playing, yes. There were no especially powerful melee or ranged combatants that could hit him and no spellcasters to try to seek out other weaknesses. Near the end of the module the player in question took the hint that everyone was fed up with him and started reigning it in. I later ran the same module and I confirmed the GM wasn't missing some crucial monster or ability.
That brings me to my point. In this instance a dozen other character builds could have broken the module just as easily.
That's really more a problem with the modules. Especially at the level range we are talking about you gain access to better scouting and attack abilities than the bird.
Edit:It's also a problem with the game after a certain point in of itself. Like you can't really blame people when endgame material gets ridiculous by default.
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Just as the blog says that most animals cannot wield weapons due to lack of an opposable thumb, so too do much greater variations in skeletal structure prevent songbirds from making unarmed strikes as a humanoid would. Songbird elbow strike? They'd be bending their wing the wrong way and trying to stab you with their feathers. It's just ridiculous.then I ask you 1 last time ... and until you do I consider this conversation done ... Provide Source that says you can't
As this is, in fact, the first time you have asked for a source to be provided, and it isn't clear precisely what you are referring to, I'll run through the seemingly likely possibilities;
1: GM discretion on abilities usable while polymorphed
2: Opposable thumb required to wield weapons
3: Location of a bird's elbow
Do you have another source for the bird's elbow, it won't let me see. :-)
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Just as the blog says that most animals cannot wield weapons due to lack of an opposable thumb, so too do much greater variations in skeletal structure prevent songbirds from making unarmed strikes as a humanoid would. Songbird elbow strike? They'd be bending their wing the wrong way and trying to stab you with their feathers. It's just ridiculous.then I ask you 1 last time ... and until you do I consider this conversation done ... Provide Source that says you can'tAs this is, in fact, the first time you have asked for a source to be provided, and it isn't clear precisely what you are referring to, I'll run through the seemingly likely possibilities;
1: GM discretion on abilities usable while polymorphed
2: Opposable thumb required to wield weapons
3: Location of a bird's elbow
1 - Refers to EX and SU (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form - Not Feats and Unarmed strike not an EX, SU, Movement type, or Natural attack
2 - No opposable Thumbs Needed to Use IUS ... I could Cut my thumbs off and still Punch - this is also from the monkey see monkey do Blog which handles Animal companions and familiars ... NOT polymorphed PC's
3 - not a Game Rule ... but RL Physics and even so .. they have feet and knees as well
Try again
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I have more experience than I like with the fact that swans, geese, owls and yes, small songbirds, can beat you upside the head with their wings while flying in your face.
I've worked with live birds as well and once you get below ducks it really isn't that bad. Pound for pound birds have much more powerful wing muscles than humans do arm muscles, but when you get down to a bird the size of your hand it doesn't matter.
In any case, wing buffets are not elbow strikes. Rather, it would be roughly the equivalent of a human hitting someone with a 'clothesline' strike... starting with the arm stretched out to the side and swinging it forward in to the target.
Do you have another source for the bird's elbow, it won't let me see. :-)
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I've worked with live birds as well and once you get below ducks it really isn't that bad.
Right, because that thrush that really doesn't like me near their nest has to rely on their strength score to hit
Magically make it so that their precision matters as much as his strength and I'd be trepanated before I could say "sorry ma'm"
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That blog says once they can take the feat it can be anything they are physically capable of using. The mental arguement is baseless.Generally speaking, these feats are off-limits to animals, but when their intelligence reaches 3, the rules state that they can use any feat that they are physically capable of using. Some people take this to mean that they can equip their animal companion in chainmail and arm him with a greatsword given the correct feats. While you could interpret the rules in this way, the "capable of use" clause is very important. Most weapons require thumbs to use properly, and even then, few animals would choose to use an artificial weapon in place of the natural weapons that have served them all their life. It's what they were born with, after all, and virtually no amount of training will change that.Funny. That kinda seems to be saying that the mental argument is NOT baseless.
Yup. But you can't have it both ways. Physically, one could argue, that most animals are capable of some sort of unarmed strike. I mean jellyfish probably not. But as silly as it sounds for some animals, if they were awakened, they could use various body parts that were not thier natural weapons to attack with. As such, a sapient creature polymorphed into an animal could indeed choose to use IUS.
The reason animals couldn't take IUS is for the same reason they can't take weapon proficiencies. They prefer to use their natural weapons.
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just curious, if all these diminutive birds are caring to much weight. i got a chance to play a werebat that took bat form. first time i changed form i went flop, cause over weight. i didnt think about it but using herolab taught me something that day.
Shouldn't all of your gear meld into you when you use Bat Shape? It says it functions as Beast Shape 2 which is a polymorph effect
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just curious, if all these diminutive birds are caring to much weight. i got a chance to play a werebat that took bat form. first time i changed form i went flop, cause over weight. i didnt think about it but using herolab taught me something that day.
i withdraw my statement. when that faq first came out, i only paid attention to the wild armor part and missed the encumbrance part. thanks for the assist
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Also: this thread and the pfs schrodinger fighter thread have eroded the last shreds of my interest in participating in pfs further for the foreseeable future. So thanks for that I guess.
Forum rule grumpiness has little to do with actual PFS or how it is played. Most of us are there to play, not argue rulesets. I do agree that these boards periodically have long arguments about rules minutiae. I repeat that this has little to do with actual PFS play.
Table variation is expected. Table GMs rule cases the best they know how, and usually that works just fine. Most of the people I game with are reasonable. I bet most of the people you game with are too.
What I find most interesting is how these threads cycle through in a cyclical pattern through these boards. We love to argue and debate this stuff, but most of the time we don't reach a definitive answer.
What they do give me, occasionally, is stuff to think about. It is interesting to see how others view the rules system. The rule set we have is important, but in the end all it is to me is a framework. The heart of our games is the story, the characters, and those moments of laughter at the table when something ridiculous happens.
Meh. I really don't care whether songbirds can do martial arts. (I would like to be able to play with the ring on Lyric, my Shelynite paladin, and hope it does not get banned. However, though I would be sad if it got banned, I would just sigh and move on.)
One cute little ring does not change PFS for me. PFS for me is meeting new friends and old ones at an ever changing table. PFS is about shared moments in a great campaign. PFS is about a framework that keeps an even playing field, and about having everyone explore, cooperate and report.
That is what matters.
Hmm
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I played with a player that was running this build at Paizocon 2016. Yes, it was gamebreaking in a way that frustrated everyone GM and players alike. Is banning the item the solution? I think not. The game is full of broken/overly powerful options. Removing the ring as an option for everyone (including players that won't abuse its powers) hurts many in the interest of reigning in a few. The more sensible solution is too target those players in particular and vote with your feet. I will not play with that player again just like I won't play with the aasimar gunslinger/paladin that one-rounded every encounter or the wizard that did the same with an AoE save-or-lose that made the GM instantly call every encounter.
It's impossible to cull every feat/spell/item or combination of the above that breaks the game. A better solution is to improve our community so that broken content is just not a problem.
I have a player in our local lodge (possibly the same person as he told me stories about playing that character at Paizocon last year) with the build in question. I have ran a couple different scenarios with them and honestly, not that bad to run with. There will always be scenarios that certain builds just make inconsequential. But there were also plenty of times being a songbird did not really do anything important.
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ACs and mounts have taken IUS once they get 3 int for years as a pre-req for dragon style so they can charge through alliesBeen playing PFS since Season Zero. Have yet to see this even once.
Well, I have it on my Eidolon mount for similar reasons. Then again, I mostly rely on its Climb speed because terrain hinderz almost as much as eager Fighters and Barbarians. My heart goes out to you Cavaliers out there; I have no idea how you maintain your sanity.
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Well, I have it on my Eidolon mount for similar reasons. Then again, I mostly rely on its Climb speed because terrain hinderz almost as much as eager Fighters and Barbarians. My heart goes out to you Cavaliers out there; I have no idea how you maintain your sanity.ACs and mounts have taken IUS once they get 3 int for years as a pre-req for dragon style so they can charge through alliesBeen playing PFS since Season Zero. Have yet to see this even once.
By building a cavalier with no levels in that class. Hunter/Fighter worked great for my halfling riding on his Giant Wasp.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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For the record, I was doing a sap master/Unchained Scout Rogue/Brawler unarmed strike thing. Like charging for 9d6 damage, most of which is precision. In my head it made sense (but I really like weak/pressure point fighting), but the local group (jokingly) plays off my attack as strength based in flavor and I've never bothered correcting them
At what level are you doing 9d6?
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there aren't other classes that get sneak attack at level 1 I believe.
there are several Prc's that do ... but I know thats not what your looking at
with Sap Master and all the PRC's at 11th I think I got up to 16d6 sneak - all theorycraft tho and not sure how effective this type of character would actually be
the main issue is the depth of feats that need to be selected to make all this work
Enforcer
Weapon Focus
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses
Sap Adept
Sap Master
as well as all prerequisite feats
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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For the record, I was doing a sap master/Unchained Scout Rogue/Brawler unarmed strike thing. Like charging for 9d6 damage, most of which is precision. In my head it made sense (but I really like weak/pressure point fighting), but the local group (jokingly) plays off my attack as strength based in flavor and I've never bothered correcting themAt what level are you doing 9d6?If my math is correct: 6.
Snakebite Brawler 1 for 1d6 sneak, Unchained Rogue 5 for +3d6. Sap Master to double, unarmed strike of 1d6.
1d6 + 2(4d6) = 9d6.It's similar to my build, but I replaced Snakebite Brawler with Kata Master Monk and only took 4 in Unchained Rogue before heading off into Noble Fencer Swashbuckler and Urban Bloodrager. More defensive approach, giving me parry and riposte for incoming attacks and panache recovery off unarmed strikes.
It occurs to me that one could achieve 9d6 earlier by subbing more sneak attack classes in place of levels of Unchained Rogue, but Debilitating Injury and Scout's Charge is amazing so...
Ok so that's about on par on what you can do at that level. Ridiculously convoluted and pretty inefficient but damagewise comparable.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I still don't get why this is such a hot bed of an issue.
It stems from players (or GM) interpreting the rules incorrectly mostly.
The only semi valid complaint is someone can get annoyingly long bursts of flight that they have to wait out the duration and can't do much unless they are built to extract maximum utility. In which case, there are other items only slightly more expensive and a couple of feats that does similar. So what? Ban all those types of things?
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I still don't get why this is such a hot bed of an issue.
It stems from players (or GM) interpreting the rules incorrectly mostly.
The only semi valid complaint is someone can get annoyingly long bursts of flight that they have to wait out the duration and can't do much unless they are built to extract maximum utility. In which case, there are other items only slightly more expensive and a couple of feats that does similar. So what? Ban all those types of things?
In what way are they misinterpreting the rules? Even if YOU think birds can't do karate, there's definitely no RAW to suggest that that is the definite and only ruling, and allowing Dex to damage in that form can get a little crazy.
I don't think any variation of the build is imbalanced in comparison to archers but the item is pretty cheap for the multiple powerful things it does. It's value as a scouting and stealth tool is actually pretty nuts. I do think it should be changed in some way but I like having powerful options that aren't the big 6. Maybe it just shouldn't be a ring of deflection so it's actually a tradeoff first of all.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Read this thread.
I've already stated the rules issue with the OP as have others. The OP had nearly everything wrong with the rules (fly speed, crafting cost, bonuses to Dex/NA, etc) on this.
A big thing often forgotten is:
You can't turn back into human early (use the command word) if you can't speak in animal form.
Another thing is that whatever major optimization you can do you still have significantly less damage per turn and less overall AC than generic fighter damage and AC. Only saving grace is your touch AC is most of your AC.
So what to do? If you want strong options gone ban these:
Allowing a 7 on any ability score (generic fighter go to way to get high str/con/Dex)
Ring of seven lovely colors (long 10 min scouts, polymorph)
Arsinotherium so no 4d8 slam/gores at large
Ranger natural weapon combat style so no 4d8 to 6d8 slam/gore bumps
Feral combat training since 6d8 natural weapons are good
Tower shield (so no 35-40 AC builds at level 8 on generic tanks)
Developer
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Read this thread.
I've already stated the rules issue with the OP as have others. The OP had nearly everything wrong with the rules (fly speed, crafting cost, bonuses to Dex/NA, etc) on this.A big thing often forgotten is:
You can't turn back into human early (use the command word) if you can't speak in animal form.
My Sap Master is a kitsune. I can standard action to turn back into normal because I have the Shapechanger Subtype and a racial ability to change forms. You can also do it with a Ring of Eloquence, but that's quite a bit of gold. Alternatively, there is a 2nd level spell in Horror Adventures that lets you shift as a swift action, also making the target of your next attack flat-footed.
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Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores and can remain in this form indefinitely.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.
So yes, turning on change shape will take the place of the old spell.
I'm pretty sure every shapechanger has a polymorph effect somewhere in their repertoire... its kind of the definition of a shapechanger.
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Yes, BNW, that was my point; you can end one polymorph effect by using the another, but you can't end a polymorph just because you have the shapechanger subtype.
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
since every shape changer has the change shape ability, and they call use the polymorph rules, all shapechangers can break a polymorph baleful or not.
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Again, just because all shapechangers have a Change Shape ability doesn't mean they can end polymorphs by virtue of having the shapechanger subtype; they can end it by virtue of having the Change Shape ability.
However, the Kitsune transformation calls out a different polymorph spell, so it's okay for the same reasons as Change Shape.
