A legitimate request to ban the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors


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The Exchange

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I wonder if I'll be the only one who read the unbuffed stat block thinking it was with the ring then switched to the other when I saw it and went 'oh nothing changed.'

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Well, at least the speed changes ^^ fly speed is better than base movement speed of a halfling (didn't invest in fly yet, with this build).

5/5

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I also had the pleasure of running a scenario for a player with a build like this, first unbuffed (and without Piranha Strike - apparently there is a discussion of this works without a manufactured weapon but ignoring that for the moment, and excluding traits)

** spoiler omitted **...

I think this is a case where instead of banning the item because a few people use it in extreme ways, you can just tell the player "you won pathfinder, good job. Please stop making the game un-fun for everyone else at the table." I don't see how this build would be hugely different just drinking potions of reduce person.

4/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Lyric the Singing Paladin wrote:
Lyric looks sadly at the pretty ring that's sitting in the Shelynite Temple gift shop window.

You could lobby for a campaign clarification, that says that the effects of the ring end whenever the casters makes a hostile action or casts a spell while using the ring.

Especially considering the paladin code of Shelyn, she really is not in favor of striking first.

I think this is an excellent way of handling it and works well with the world background.

ISG, Shelyn's paladin code wrote:
I am peaceful. I come first with a rose rather than a weapon, and act to prevent conflict before it blossoms. I never strike first, unless it is the only way to protect the innocent.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/55/55/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

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Having only seen the ring used by PCs who worship Shelyn, I originally didn't see this item as too much of a problem. But, the more I read it over and look at how the developers have priced other things (and their own building-magic-item rules), the more I wonder about it.

I like the drawback of being unable to dismiss it unless you have a Ring of Eloquence or some other way to speak in bird form, but still, yea.

My idea for a possible fix would be to just stipulate that this item (and IMHO all feats/spells/items/etc. from Inner Sea Gods) can only be used by a worshiper of Shelyn (or the respective deity). That would mean the PC would need to be within one step of her alignment, roleplaying as a follower of Shelyn's ways as mentioned by both Sebastian and BretI (above), etc.

There are a bunch of items in ISG that have potential for abuse or are overpowered, and that could see roleplay elements from the world setting of Golarion being used to help mitigate some "solo the scenario" builds.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Mike Bramnik wrote:

I like the drawback of being unable to dismiss it unless you have a Ring of Eloquence or some other way to speak in bird form, but still, yea.

My idea for a possible fix would be to just stipulate that this item (and IMHO all feats/spells/items/etc. from Inner Sea Gods) can only be used by a worshiper of Shelyn (or the respective deity). That would mean the PC would need to be within one step of her alignment, roleplaying as a follower of Shelyn's ways as mentioned by both Sebastian and BretI (above), etc.

There are a bunch of items in ISG that have potential for abuse or are overpowered, and that could see roleplay elements from the world setting of Golarion being used to help mitigate some "solo the scenario" builds.

I like this solution, at least for the most part.

(I'm not sure how I feel about everything in ISG being affected. My love affair with channel vigor is well-documented elsewhere.)

Sovereign Court

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Mike Lindner wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I also had the pleasure of running a scenario for a player with a build like this, first unbuffed (and without Piranha Strike - apparently there is a discussion of this works without a manufactured weapon but ignoring that for the moment, and excluding traits)

** spoiler omitted **...

I think this is a case where instead of banning the item because a few people use it in extreme ways, you can just tell the player "you won pathfinder, good job. Please stop making the game un-fun for everyone else at the table." I don't see how this build would be hugely different just drinking potions of reduce person.

This. A thousand times this.

And everyone getting squirrelly over some super-special build while Alchemists run around unchecked is hilarious. There are MANY more, and more frequent, fun sponge builds that exist in PFS.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Having only seen the ring used by PCs who worship Shelyn, I originally didn't see this item as too much of a problem. But, the more I read it over and look at how the developers have priced other things (and their own building-magic-item rules), the more I wonder about it.

I like the drawback of being unable to dismiss it unless you have a Ring of Eloquence or some other way to speak in bird form, but still, yea.

My idea for a possible fix would be to just stipulate that this item (and IMHO all feats/spells/items/etc. from Inner Sea Gods) can only be used by a worshiper of Shelyn (or the respective deity). That would mean the PC would need to be within one step of her alignment, roleplaying as a follower of Shelyn's ways as mentioned by both Sebastian and BretI (above), etc.

There are a bunch of items in ISG that have potential for abuse or are overpowered, and that could see roleplay elements from the world setting of Golarion being used to help mitigate some "solo the scenario" builds.

Several points in order, if your build works, why would you want to dismiss the effect, chances are pretty good that other characters will heal you.

There are (as has been mentioned) ways to circumvent the speaking thing, cost is usually an issue, and I would argue, that the ring is way to cheap for the effect. So additional cost is somehow discounted indirectly.

I am very much against limiting access to spells and magic items from that book ... at this point. IIRC the feats are already limited, but the book has been PFS legal for quite a long time at this point (and, not the beat the dead horse too much, once arcane casters get access to a spell there is really no sensible reason to limit access based on their deity).

I have a Paladin of Shelyn and while I love playing her, looking back at the scenarios I have played with her, the situations where fighting an enemy was not an option... I really don't remember a situation where being a songbird would have clashed with my code.

---

For casters who want to use the ring (and frankly you could even argue that the ring breaks a couple of non-compete laws with the druid unions) following Shelyn will not really be a problem.

To rephrase my argument, is the ring less broken when it is used in bonekeep (where fighting is pretty much assured) ?

It is effectively a 2000 GP effect, at least increasing the price seems to be a valid option.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Once combat starts try to get close to your enemy (enter his square if possible with AC 26+ and mobility your chances to get hit are slim) but if it isn't possible, wait for your enemy to attack you, so you can use:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): wrote:
At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

After the mouser uses Underfoot Assault, why doesn't the person who the mouser now occupies the same space as simply five foot step away from the mouser? Underfoot Assault is an immediate action, so the mouser can't use it again for one round. Step Up is also an immediate action, so you would be unable to use it.

This is the reason I immediately dismissed the mouser archetype.

Grand Lodge

Mike Bramnik wrote:

Having only seen the ring used by PCs who worship Shelyn, I originally didn't see this item as too much of a problem. But, the more I read it over and look at how the developers have priced other things (and their own building-magic-item rules), the more I wonder about it.

I like the drawback of being unable to dismiss it unless you have a Ring of Eloquence or some other way to speak in bird form, but still, yea.

My idea for a possible fix would be to just stipulate that this item (and IMHO all feats/spells/items/etc. from Inner Sea Gods) can only be used by a worshiper of Shelyn (or the respective deity). That would mean the PC would need to be within one step of her alignment, roleplaying as a follower of Shelyn's ways as mentioned by both Sebastian and BretI (above), etc.

There are a bunch of items in ISG that have potential for abuse or are overpowered, and that could see roleplay elements from the world setting of Golarion being used to help mitigate some "solo the scenario" builds.

Roleplay decisions and limiting to worshipper's single god do not mitigate any of the various abuses that can stem from this item (or others). It might limit some players usage of the item, but if you really intended to exploit some item, is it that hard to come up with a reason to follow Shelyn or to roleplay how you worship her? It's a perceived limitation that is functionally meaningless.

At this point I'd rather not start limiting something (the ISG content) that's been open game for so long. (Though I could certainly have seen the argument for doing so originally)

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Michael Eshleman wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Once combat starts try to get close to your enemy (enter his square if possible with AC 26+ and mobility your chances to get hit are slim) but if it isn't possible, wait for your enemy to attack you, so you can use:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): wrote:
At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

After the mouser uses Underfoot Assault, why doesn't the person who the mouser now occupies the same space as simply five foot step away from the mouser? Underfoot Assault is an immediate action, so the mouser can't use it again for one round. Step Up is also an immediate action, so you would be unable to use it.

This is the reason I immediately dismissed the mouser archetype.

If an enemy still have the 5ft step as an option, he can of course take it, but will provoke an attack of opportunity from the mouser:

Underfoot assault wrote:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.

So at this point your are trading attacks of opportinity 1 for 1 (since the mouser can just follow with a 5 ft step next round, provoke and still have her immediate action, so the target can't do it again) with someone who will likely have better AC and to hit than you.

And if you have the feats, this is an option:

Someone said wrote:

Stand Still (Combat)

You can stop foes that try to move past you.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes.

Benefit: When a foe provokes an attack of opportunity due to moving through your adjacent squares, you can make a combat maneuver check as your attack of opportunity. If successful, the enemy cannot move for the rest of his turn. An enemy can still take the rest of his action, but cannot move. This feat also applies to any creature that attempts to move from a square that is adjacent to you if such movement provokes an attack of opportunity.

If course the definition of adjacent become complicated with the mouser archetype, since the feat was never written with such a situation in mind.

So worst case, once the mouser is in your square it becomes very hard to get out, and attacks against other targets are very hard.

Grand Lodge

I will examine the strength of the item from two angles: the benefits that any character can receive from this item, and the benefits that characters well suited to its ability receive.

First, we will subtract the cost of the ring of protection +1, meaning we are valuating the unique aspects of the ring (beast shape to be a bird) at 2,000 gp.

So, for an additional 2,000 gp when purchasing a ring of protection, a character that is poorly suited to leveraging the ring of seven lovely colors can (seven times per day):

1. Bypass the vast majority of physical obstacles.

This includes climbing things, water crossings, chasms, holes too small to fit through, dangerously rickety/narrow/slick surfaces, guard outposts, all traps that don't trigger on a three-dimensional volume, dense undergrowth or other difficult terrain, etc. Most of these can be accomplished with any flying methodology, the only thing special about the RoSLC is that it can be used so frequently, and with such a lengthy duration. An 11th level Wizard with 24 INT could fill all their 3rd level slots with fly and still need to spend 9,000 on a pearl of power III to achieve this much flight, and would still be slower.

2. Scouting/reconnaissance. There are four elements granting any scout with this item a significant edge over would-be spotters. It grants low-light vision, potentially negating penalties to Perception, it increases the Stealth score of the wearer by +10 (and eliminates any potential armor check penalties), the ability to fly extremely quickly will be helpful if a quick retreat becomes necessary, and birds are innocuous. Even if spotted, I can't really think of what check an NPC would make to identify a wayward bird as a deadly intruder. Taken together, this can make any recon character virtually undetectable, or take the more loud-and-heavy guys innocuous enough not to give away their stealthier companions.

3. Chasing something down/running away/escaping a burning building/etc. The 120' movement speed is an incredible trick to have at one's disposal in and of itself, especially with this many uses. It would take a remarkable amount of character resource allocation to achieve that speed without the ring.

These are benefits that even a heavily armored greatsword wielder would receive when out-of-combat. I think that individually each of these would be worth more than 2,000 gp, and together they are quite potent. This is especially true given that they can be implemented for 70 minutes a day, in not necessarily consecutive increments of 10 minutes.

Now we can consider a character well suited to benefiting from the ring. Let's take a LVL 6 Unchained Monk with a starting Dex of 17, +1 at level 4, +2 belt for 20 Dex total. He also has a +0 agile amulet of the mighty fists because he super wants Dex to damage, and he is finessing his unarmed strikes, has weapon focus with them, and has Piranha strike. So, a somewhat typical dex-based monk.

His attack bonus is +6/+6/+1 on a flurry (could spend ki for one more attack), +5 from Dex, +1 from weapon focus, -2 from Piranha strike for a total of +10/+10/+5. Each attack is 1d8+9, or 13.5 average damage. This makes the monk's overall EDV (against an AC of 19, the average AC of a CR 6 creature) 22 if he does not use ki for an additional attack, and 30.5 if he does. By my benchmarking methods this character's damage output would be considered well into green, but doesn't hit Blue even when ki striking.

If this monk bought and used the RoSLC, the monk's attack bonus will increase by 5 (+2 size bonus, +2 from the Dex increase, +1 height advantage), his damage die will go down to a d4, but he will make up that average damage with the Dex increase.

In other words, it is now +15/+15/+10 1d4+11 (which is still 13.5 average damage). His EDV against AC 19 increases to 32.6 when he is not ki striking, and 44.65 if he does. This is more than a 68% increase in expected damage. I can think of no item even remotely close to this price range capable of so greatly increasing a martial character's expected damage output.

The ring also increases the monk's AC by 5 (2 from Dex, 2 size, 1 natural) beyond the +1 deflection bonus, dramatically improving their defenses. The monk's mobility, as has already been discussed, is also significantly improved.

Beyond which, the monk is still capable of reaping the out-of-combat benefits noted above.

After examining this item rigorously, I must agree with Barton's thesis. The item should be banned, or at least errata'd. If it were usable 1/day for 1 minute, it would certainly be less problematic (though I'd still put at least an 8,000 gp price tag on it).

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Le petit mort wrote:
I will examine the strength of the item from two angles: the benefits that any character can receive from this item, and the benefits that characters well suited to its ability receive.

You need to account for the fact that you're stuck in bird form for all of these benefits. There are significant downsides to not having an opposable thumb.

For scouting its not +to stealth that gets you spotted, its the stealth rules breaking and lack of cover/concealment. Lowlight vision is good, but your chances of running into something that doesnt have it in the dark are pretty low.

There is no 120 foot movement speed. A crow has a speed of 40. You're capped at the forms or the spells movement, whichever is less.

The damage is awesome... on a full attack. On paper its amazing. In practice, you wind up moving to an opponent, hitting them once, your party takes him out, you need to move again.

Yes, the ring enables crazy multiclass shennanigans... that are pretty much the same as the other multiclass monstrocity shennanigans we see.

Yes, its underpriced. But SO under priced it needs to be banned and effectively kill peoples characters? No.

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington

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Barton "Bart" Oliver wrote:

No in fact I did compare it to similarly priced items

Beast Shape II, 1/day, Must be a worshipper of Shelyn

I don't think many people agree with your similarly priced items.

There is materially no difference between the item using BS IV and BS II. The 1/day would be a limiter and the worshipper would too.

Jeffrey Fox wrote:
So yes, in some places it has caused issues.

Care to articulate how it caused issues that a Large Animal Druid, Fox Shape Kitsune or Bat Shape Skinwalker wouldn't cause identical issues?

RoshVagari wrote:
There are MANY more, and more frequent, fun sponge builds that exist in PFS.

+1

Michael Eshleman wrote:
This is the reason I immediately dismissed the mouser archetype.

Shrug, I'd recommend not using the Underfoot Assault to move.

Le Petite Mort wrote:

The 120' movement speed

44.65 if he does

Please stop repeating an incorrect rule. Read the polymorph section. You will get 40' movement from the ring, period.

Also, if you think 44.65 average damage while poly morphed is good for level 7, There are quasi generic Druid/Ranger/Monk builds that exceed 50 for minimum damage with 6d8 damage dice. 44.65 is low.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:
Barton "Bart" Oliver wrote:

No in fact I did compare it to similarly priced items

Beast Shape II, 1/day, Must be a worshipper of Shelyn
I don't think many people agree with your similarly priced items.

Ok, show me the disagreement with my comparable choices, I literally grabbed all of them in a number of slots. Paizo created rules for building magical items and I (properly) applied them to the Ring to evaluate it. Any similar items I used are the ones out there that would be priced at nearly the same price as the ring (if it were to give only the polymorph effect). So, please show me how I'm wrong or chose the wrong items. You can't just ignore the ring of protection as part of the ring of seven lovely colors cost and benefit (which the 1 item you mentioned did).

Quote:


There is materially no difference between the item using BS IV and BS II. The 1/day would be a limiter and the worshipper would too.

Actually using BS II instead of BS IV makes a big difference, it matches the CL of the ring as listed, and decreases the building cost of the ring by using a lower spell level and caster level. Thus despite no change in actual power of the item it does match more closely to cost of the item. (It should also probably change the duration to 7 minutes, instead of 10 as well) The 1/day is the major limiting factor. The worshipper of Shelyn is barely limiting. Together maybe it falls in line with its current pricing.

Quote:
Also, if you think 44.65 average damage while poly morphed is good for level 7, There are quasi generic Druid/Ranger/Monk builds that exceed 50 for minimum damage with 6d8 damage dice. 44.65 is low.

I think his point was less about the damage output than the increase in damage output. A 68% increase in damage output (alongside the other benefits), is massive.

4/5 5/5

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Please forgive my ignorance, as the answer to my question has likely been answered in earlier posts or an FAQ (or is blatantly obvious and I just can't see it), but...

How are players getting more than one attack while in songbird form? The songbird (raven) has one natural attack (a bite)? I don't understand where or how the example characters are getting iterative attacks with that bite.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

BigNorseWolf wrote:


The damage is awesome... on a full attack. On paper its amazing. In practice, you wind up moving to an opponent, hitting them once, your party takes him out, you need to move again.
.

If the bird is a pure unchained monk, like in the example he used, he is only two levels away from pummeling charge (pummeling style is a decent idea for this build since mitigates the need to deal with DR).

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Yes, its underpriced. But SO under priced it needs to be banned and effectively kill peoples characters? No.

How many characters don't work without the ring? I assume that most of them still work with reduce person.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Yes, the ring enables crazy multiclass shennanigans... that are pretty much the same as the other multiclass monstrocity shennanigans we see.

Like the sample build I posted, unless you invest in feral combat training (which currently seems to be a moot point) the ring just makes you better, at what you do.

But okay, the ring doesn't need to be banned, not unlike the seriously underpriced mask of stone demeanor, increasing the price is a valid option.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

graypark wrote:

Please forgive my ignorance, as the answer to my question has likely been answered in earlier posts or an FAQ (or is blatantly obvious and I just can't see it), but...

How are players getting more than one attack while in songbird form? The songbird (raven) has one natural attack (a bite)? I don't understand where or how the example characters are getting iterative attacks with that bite.

Monk with flurry of blows using unarmed strikes, this version of the build does not interact with the bite.

5/5 5/55/55/5

graypark wrote:

Please forgive my ignorance, as the answer to my question has likely been answered in earlier posts or an FAQ (or is blatantly obvious and I just can't see it), but...

How are players getting more than one attack while in songbird form? The songbird (raven) has one natural attack (a bite)? I don't understand where or how the example characters are getting iterative attacks with that bite.

Improved unarmed strike, flurry of blows, and haste which goes off of base attack bonus.

1/5 5/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Improved unarmed strike, flurry of blows, and haste which goes off of base attack bonus.

That's no songbird!

That's a Society Woodpecker!

4/5 5/5

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Improved unarmed strike, flurry of blows, and haste which goes off of base attack bonus.

Does flurry of blows work with natural attacks? I was of the understanding (mistaken?) that it didn't.

Grand Lodge

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


But okay, the ring doesn't need to be banned, not unlike the seriously underpriced mask of stone demeanor, increasing the price is a valid option.

The problem with this (and why I didn't mention it originally) is that those decisions have traditionally been made by the Paizo Development Team not PFS and generally only when there is a reprinting. Asking for a ban was mostly as a way to deal with it more quickly while hoping for a pricing change/errata in the future.

4/5 5/5

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Monk with flurry of blows using unarmed strikes, this version of the build does not interact with the bite.

Are you saying that the monk is using unarmed strikes while in songbird form? Is that possible?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


But okay, the ring doesn't need to be banned, not unlike the seriously underpriced mask of stone demeanor, increasing the price is a valid option.

The mask is off by a factor of 10, the ring is a grand or two short.

Grand Lodge

graypark wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Improved unarmed strike, flurry of blows, and haste which goes off of base attack bonus.
Does flurry of blows work with natural attacks? I was of the understanding (mistaken?) that it didn't.

They don't but you just ignore the bite all together and use an unarmed strike (see: headbutt).

5/5 5/55/55/5

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graypark wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Monk with flurry of blows using unarmed strikes, this version of the build does not interact with the bite.
Are you saying that the monk is using unarmed strikes while in songbird form? Is that possible?

Having been clonked in the head by a swan i'm going to say yes.

4/5 5/5

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Joe Ducey wrote:
They don't but you just ignore the bite all together and use an unarmed strike (see: headbutt).

Okay. I see it now. Thanks.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


But okay, the ring doesn't need to be banned, not unlike the seriously underpriced mask of stone demeanor, increasing the price is a valid option.

The mask is off by a factor of 10, the ring is a grand or two short.

Prove it. Show me a price, and the argument that gets you there, I assume it will be some mitigating cost to the usefulness of Beast shape since you are limited to a single form, etc. Give me a number. I picked 1/20th or 95% off and it's still off by a factor of 2 or 3. IMO, and the only math that's been shown so far it's off by somewhere between a factor of 2 and a factor of 42.5

5/5 5/55/55/5

Joe Ducey wrote:


I think his point was less about the damage output than the increase in damage output. A 68% increase in damage output (alongside the other benefits), is massive.

No. An item that doubles the damage on a greatsword is far different than an item that doubles the damage on a starknife. One makes an option good, one makes it completely overpowered.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

James Risner wrote:


Care to articulate how it caused issues that a Large Animal Druid, Fox Shape Kitsune or Bat Shape Skinwalker wouldn't cause identical issues?
low.

Skinwalkers are currently a boon only race, and that boon hasn't been largely circulated, but access to bat shape (not unlike fox shape) costs a feat and requires a certain charisma.

The ring allows you to effectively gain the effects of those feats, without forcing characters to play a member of those races. Since you sometimes want/have to use certain abilities (mouser) without the time to change your shape(or you want to retain access to your items) chosing a small race can have certain advantages.

I don't have a lot of experience with skinwalkers, but their change shape power doesn't seem to stack with other polymorph effects (like the bat shape feat) so that would result in potentially 2 points dexterity less and other races with the ring or kitsune with fox shape (but they can't fly).

I am not too familiar with the druid build, but from what I could gather, the druid transforms into a large creature... which often has significant downsides in PFS scenarios, tiny creatures are only rarely penalized in this fashion.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Joe Ducey wrote:


I think his point was less about the damage output than the increase in damage output. A 68% increase in damage output (alongside the other benefits), is massive.

No. An item that doubles the damage on a greatsword is far different than an item that doubles the damage on a starknife. One makes an option good, one makes it completely overpowered.

And this is an item that allows a level 8/9 character a 50+% increase on damage on a full attack which you're getting all the time since you'll be able to full attack on a charge or a 5 foot step and you're flying so charging is easy. Oh and you're only dealing with DR once. And you're getting increases to Initiative, AC, Reflex Saves, lowlight vision in addition.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Barton "Bart" Oliver wrote:


Prove it. Show me a price, and the argument that gets you there, I assume it will be some mitigating cost to the usefulness of Beast shape since you are limited to a single form, etc. Give me a number. I picked 1/20th or 95% off and it's still off by a factor of 2 or 3. IMO, and the only math that's been shown so far it's off by somewhere between a factor of 2 and a factor of 42.5

Stop claiming you have math. You don;t. Nothing you have is objective, ESPECIALLY the very loose guidelines for magic item creation.

Every single "calculation" you have is a completely subjective air pull. You keep, and i mean KEEP, comparing it to other options without taking into account that you're stuck as a freaking bluebird. You are not just getting a fly speed, you are losing your opposable thumbs, the ability so speak, getting the CMD of.. well, a bird, can't open doors, can't activate wands, have no reach...

In order to make the bluebird useful, you have to take other more expensive options. Dex based build, amulet of mighty fists, monk, ring of eloquence... doubling the damage output of an option doing 50% damage is not a bug its a feature.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Barton "Bart" Oliver wrote:


And this is an item that allows a level 8/9 character a 50+% increase on damage on a full attack

Just like every other remotely relevant character at that level.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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BigNorseWolf wrote:


In order to make the bluebird useful, you have to take other more expensive options. Dex based build, amulet of mighty fists, monk, ring of eloquence... doubling the damage output of an option doing 50% damage is not a bug its a feature.

Reversing that argument, the ring just happens to be a perfect item and too cheap upgrade for those characters. Dex based monks are already pretty great (once they can afford the amulet, but that's just how dex to damage works these days), and even the mouser works quite well without the ring.

It's just that the relatively cheap ring makes those options that much better (the AC increase is a pretty relevant part).

Even adding the cost of the ring of eloquence (which is still quite optional, chances are slim that you want to leave your bird form in combat unless the circumstances force you to do so), the effect of the ring (removing the +1 ring of protection price) should be at least 5000-7000 in my opinion.

If I wasn't so annoyed by the various builds that abuse the item, I would even consider it for my hunter (who can get beastspeak, and might be able to get more natural weapons in bird form... ), but yeah, this is the current situation. The item can be perfectly fine for a lot of characters, but in the "right" hands, it severely underpriced and should be adressed. Of course your experiences might differ.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Barton "Bart" Oliver wrote:


Prove it. Show me a price, and the argument that gets you there, I assume it will be some mitigating cost to the usefulness of Beast shape since you are limited to a single form, etc. Give me a number. I picked 1/20th or 95% off and it's still off by a factor of 2 or 3. IMO, and the only math that's been shown so far it's off by somewhere between a factor of 2 and a factor of 42.5

Stop claiming you have math. You don;t. Nothing you have is objective, ESPECIALLY the very loose guidelines for magic item creation.

Every single "calculation" you have is a completely subjective air pull. You keep, and i mean KEEP, comparing it to other options without taking into account that you're stuck as a freaking bluebird. You are not just getting a fly speed, you are losing your opposable thumbs, the ability so speak, getting the CMD of.. well, a bird, can't open doors, can't activate wands, have no reach...

Ok, if that's all true, then you also can't claim it's only off by a couple of thousand. You apparently have no way of knowing.

Also, not sure when we stopped playing with a party in PFS.

Quote:
Quote:


And this is an item that allows a level 8/9 character a 50+% increase on damage on a full attack
Just like every other remotely relevant character at that level.

Huh? Every character has a 4k option that gives them a 50% increase in damage over not having it. Illuminate me.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


If I wasn't so annoyed by the various builds that abuse the item, I would even consider it for my hunter (who can get beastspeak, and might be able to get more natural weapons in bird form... ), but yeah, this is the current situation. The item can be perfectly fine for a lot of characters, but in the "right" hands, it severely underpriced and should be adressed. Of course your experiences might differ.

Boots of fly work a lot better for a swashbuckler than a druid. Should the swashbuckler have to pay more?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

This might be a stupid question, but what if they just clarified that you can't make unarmed strikes under the ring's effects?

The Exchange

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Barton "Bart" Oliver wrote:
Huh? Every character has a 4k option that gives them a 50% increase in damage over not having it. Illuminate me.

Gauntlet 1d3

+1 Gauntlet 1d3+1

Spoiler:
It's like percentages mean nothing compared to static numbers here. The build did barely any damage before and 50% more of barely anything still isn't impressive.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Kalindlara wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but what if they just clarified that you can't make unarmed strikes under the ring's effects?

People find a way to make attacks with the beak or grow claws with sorcerer/barbarian levels.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Barton "Bart" Oliver wrote:

]

Huh? Every character has a 4k option that gives them a 50% increase in damage over not having it. Illuminate me.

There are MANY builds that get ridiculously better with the addition of one option. A dex based character with an agile weapon, a dex based character with an agile amulet o mighty fists, dervish dance, an answering weapon on a swashbuckler (pretty much replaces your armor), an adamantine weapon for a sunder build, coils of the anaconda on a grappler... half the fun of building a character is finding synergistic abilities to use in ways that are stronger than the sum of their parts.

Quote:
k, if that's all true, then you also can't claim it's only off by a couple of thousand. You apparently have no way of knowing.

Knowing no. Eyeballing it? Sure.

When you compare a build around using the item with a build NOT built around using the item you don't wind up obscenely far a head. The drawbacks on the item take enough additional resources and eliminate enough build options to make up a fair bit for the benefits. If you are worried about a build doing 100 points of damage on less than a full move at 9th level I have to wonder what you've been playing at 9th level. The experimental, practical applications mean a lot more than "objective" evaluations.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


If I wasn't so annoyed by the various builds that abuse the item, I would even consider it for my hunter (who can get beastspeak, and might be able to get more natural weapons in bird form... ), but yeah, this is the current situation. The item can be perfectly fine for a lot of characters, but in the "right" hands, it severely underpriced and should be adressed. Of course your experiences might differ.

Boots of fly work a lot better for a swashbuckler than a druid. Should the swashbuckler have to pay more?

Actually, if it was just a fly 3 times per day item, it would work perfectly fine with druids. The boots are a bit weird though, especially since they lists concentration checks and I am not sure how they are intended to interact with polymorph effects.

Just like peals of power, some items are useless for some classes and great for others. So perhaps I could rephrase it like this:

"The item is so good/underpriced, that it becomes an attractive buy, even for classes who normally can't use them properly"

Sneaking the Paladin in full plate and tower shield into the chelish embassy becomes easier with somethings like this, and there should be plenty of chances for the ring to be worthy of the current cost - the mental immage of a flying lay on hands paladinbird is quite cute though.

Whithout the ring of eloquence you are limited though, but adding both or those items together still seems too cheap for me, even for just the occasional use. If you don't have to deal with components (like some classes) it becomes quite an attractive option even for spellcasters.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Kalindlara wrote:
This might be a stupid question, but what if they just clarified that you can't make unarmed strikes under the ring's effects?

That would be the point where feral combat training becomes relevant again, or as BNW mentioned, there are ways to get additional attacks.

Grand Lodge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

You need to account for the fact that you're stuck in bird form for all of these benefits. There are significant downsides to not having an opposable thumb.

That is not a counter-argument. It still gets characters past a wealth of challenges when out of combat, and once past the obstacles the duration can be waited out trivially. With seven usages daily, that is a lot of non-combat utility to add.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


For scouting its not +to stealth that gets you spotted, its the stealth rules breaking and lack of cover/concealment. Lowlight vision is good, but your chances of running into something that doesnt have it in the dark are pretty low.

Is your argument here really that Stealth modifier isn't important for stealth reconnaissance? Seriously? I'm not even going to address that. That's like saying your Perception modifier isn't important for finding things, as you usually can't find it because you're in the wrong building.

And yeah, you need to find concealment...for a bird. Not exactly tough to find an out of the way nook for a bird to hide in, and you still haven't addressed the fact that if someone spotted the bird, their likely reaction would be, "Oh hey, a bird."

BigNorseWolf wrote:


The damage is awesome... on a full attack. On paper its amazing. In practice, you wind up moving to an opponent, hitting them once, your party takes him out, you need to move again.

So now your argument is that martials don't get full attacks, so martials shouldn't concern themselves with how much damage they can do on full attacks? Well, I guess I'll stop ever taking two weapon fighting, rapid shot, fast bombs, pummeling strike, or absolutely any character option to increase a character's damage.

Even if full attacks didn't exist at all, it would still increase the damage on my blocked out character's by about 42%, which is still massive.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Yes, the ring enables crazy multiclass shennanigans... that are pretty much the same as the other multiclass monstrocity shennanigans we see.

Did I black out and present a crazy multiclass monstrosity? I certainly don't remember doing that. In fact, I think I made a pretty bare-bones monk without any archetype, about half the feats missing, 4000-8000 gp unspent, no traits, and an un-optimized Dex.

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Yes, its underpriced. But SO under priced it needs to be banned and effectively kill peoples characters? No.

If taking away this single wondrous item can, in your own words, 'effectively kill peoples characters' then you have articulated my own point admirably. If a single item worth 4k is SO OVERWHELMINGLY GOOD that characters entirely fall apart without it, then that is a pretty good indicator that it is poorly designed. I can't think of any other item at that price point this powerful, as you yourself just unwittingly admitted.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Actually, if it was just a fly 3 times per day item, it would work perfectly fine with druids. The boots are a bit weird though, especially since they lists concentration checks and I am not sure how they are intended to interact with polymorph effects.

They more or less shut off and can't be used when you polymorph.

Quote:
"The item is so good/underpriced, that it becomes an attractive buy, even for classes who normally can't use them properly"

THAT is a much better argument.

The thing is this

1) is only a great tactic when everyone makes the investment, not very likely in PFS.

2) Would actually let another character use their stealth/disguise/ mad skillz... which would be a good thing.

3) in pfs spending 7.5 k and both your ring slots for something like this is pretty unlikely at levels where it really matters. Fighting types NEED gear in the main 6, and this isn't it. A scroll and UMD or hiring a spellcaster to baleful polymorph would be a far more economical option.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Le Petite Mort wrote:


That is not a counter-argument. It still gets characters past a wealth of challenges when out of combat, and once past the obstacles the duration can be waited out trivially. With seven usages daily, that is a lot of non-combat utility to add.

So does rope. 5 gp. Totally overpowered.

Quote:
Is your argument here really that Stealth modifier isn't important for stealth reconnaissance? Seriously? I'm not even going to address that.

Not addressing something because you can't doesn't make it go away. The problems for a PC moving towards a goal using stealth are NOT that they lack enough +s. Its that something auto spots them: lack of cover/concealment, scent/blindsight/sense/scent/darkvision or the bane of invisible characters, needing to open a door.

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That's like saying your Perception modifier isn't important for finding things, as you usually can't find it because you're in the wrong building.

I did not say it wasn't important. I said it wasn't the limiting factor.

Quote:
And yeah, you need to find concealment...for a bird. Not exactly tough to find an out of the way nook for a bird to hide in, and you still haven't addressed the fact that if someone spotted the bird, their likely reaction would be, "Oh hey, a bird."

Or "I feel like chicken tonight like chicken tonight

They also stand out in quite a few environments.

This is a temperate zone!!!

Which just shows why its not as good as a druids shapeshift: it lacks the versatility.

Quote:
So now your argument is that martials don't get full attacks, so martials shouldn't concern themselves with how much damage they can do on full attacks?

No.

My argument is that martials often don't get full attacks, so when evaluating a martials build for overpoweredness you have to account for

The awesome= [damage fullattackingX % of times full attacking] + [damage on single attack X % of times single attacking]

That significantly lowers the benefit of multiple attacks, and abilities that rely on them.

Quote:
Even if full attacks didn't exist at all, it would still increase the damage on my blocked out character's by about 42%, which is still massive.

A percentage increase is irrelevant. See the +1 gauntlet.

Quote:
Did I black out and present a crazy multiclass monstrosity? I certainly don't remember doing that. In fact, I think I made a pretty bare-bones monk without any archetype, about half the feats missing, 4000-8000 gp unspent, no traits, and an un-optimized Dex.

Fine. Monk shennanigans. I have a monk in my group dropping similar damage on dragonstyle and a fist. So what?

Quote:
If taking away this single wondrous item can, in your own words, 'effectively kill peoples characters' then you have articulated my own point admirably.

No. It means you're again avoiding the point.

Something can be set up as the lynchpin that brings disparate parts of a build together without itself being overpowered. Sometimes one ability connects two or more other abilities together to synergize without itself being overpowered... and that's not a bad thing.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I would probably rule that the "songbird form" is visually similar to Shelyn's holy symbol (what with all the lovely colors and such), making it a little harder to "fly casual".

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Le Petite Mort wrote:


That is not a counter-argument. It still gets characters past a wealth of challenges when out of combat, and once past the obstacles the duration can be waited out trivially. With seven usages daily, that is a lot of non-combat utility to add.

So does rope. 5 gp. Totally overpowered.

Rope doesn't solve anywhere close to all of the obstacles I laid out, and you know it. Essentially you're arguing that rope is a suitable replacement for a fly speed.

Quote:
Is your argument here really that Stealth modifier isn't important for stealth reconnaissance? Seriously? I'm not even going to address that.

Not addressing something because you can't doesn't make it go away. The problems for a PC moving towards a goal using stealth are NOT that they lack enough +s. Its that something auto spots them: lack of cover/concealment, scent/blindsight/sense/scent/darkvision or the bane of invisible characters, needing to open a door.

Okay, I guess I mischaracterized your argument here. What you're really saying is that stealth is unusable by anyone, ever, because you're going to get auto-spotted. Unless you're not, in which case you have to admit that a +10 modifier (equivalent to a 250 gp elixir) has considerable value.

Quote:
That's like saying your Perception modifier isn't important for finding things, as you usually can't find it because you're in the wrong building.

I did not say it wasn't important. I said it wasn't the limiting factor.

Great, that isn't a point. Yes, it is sometimes possible for certain enemies to defeat stealth rolls without a Perception check. That in no way negates the importance of your Stealth modifier if you want to do recon.

Quote:
And yeah, you need to find concealment...for a bird. Not exactly tough to find an out of the way nook for a bird to hide in, and you still haven't addressed the fact that if someone spotted the bird, their likely reaction would be, "Oh hey, a bird."

Or "I feel like chicken tonight like chicken tonight

Songbirds aren't chickens. Not everything eats meat. Very few things would go out of their way to hunt down and eat a songbird.

They also stand out in quite a few environments.

This is a temperate zone!!!

I would totally allow NPCs to roll Knowledge (nature) on the bird once they've made their Perception check to determine that it isn't indigenous. Now, how often do enemies have both good Perception and Knowledge (nature)? Not often enough to reasonably call that a real obstacle. Nice MP reference though.

Which just shows why its not as good as a druids shapeshift: it lacks the versatility.

You're completely correct. It is nowhere near as good as it would be if this flat-out gave a character the wildshape ability, nor even as good as if it were a full beast shape 4 allowing any of those forms. While completely correct, this statement does absolutely nothing to reinforce your overall point, as I never contended that it was egregiously powerful as that. An item that did that would flat out be a major artifact, as it would give any possessor a fully realized main class feature for a tier-1 class. It is still, in its present form, ludicrously underpriced/overpowered.

It stopped your quote here, so I'll just sum.

A 42% increase in damage is huge. A 70% increase in damage is even bigger. This was on a very simple, unoptimized, bare-bones character. There are numerous ways to achieve those, or even superior results. When designing a character option, a good designer thinks not only of the typical usages to which the item will be put (which are obviously worth FAR more than 2,000 gp in and of themselves), but also the maximal utility that can be drawn from it.

It is so trivially easy to build a character that will massively benefit from this that several of my characters built before I even knew this item existed would have considerable gains in both in and out of combat utility for a sum of gold that is now paltry to them.

I haven't missed your point. You don't have one. You have a lot of circumstances you can list in which any given individual benefit of the ring might not completely wreck a challenge, but in actual play it probably would more often than not.

Your final sentence is completely true, and again completely irrelevant. There are many things that synergize well with other things without themselves being broken.

This isn't one. The benefits for characters that cannot leverage it particularly well are so good that I can think of multiple scenarios where nearly every out-of-combat challenge is bypassed by activating the ring. The combat benefits for the numerous build types that can leverage the ring are so overwhelming as to be more comparable to the boots of the battle herald than a pale green cracked ioun stone.

The Exchange

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Just a note without a sufficient disguise check a perception check could quickly reveal a player who has become a songbird without any other knowledge at all.


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Ragoz wrote:
Just a note without a sufficient disguise check a perception check could quickly reveal a player who has become a songbird without any other knowledge at all.

As per Ultimate Intrigue, observing characters actually need a reason to pay attention to the PC. If they are a random bird in a random tree 30ft away then there probably isn't a reason. It's probably not going to be an issue in most circumstances.

EDIT:
Ultimate Intrigue wrote:

The most important thing to

note about the Disguise skill is that characters do not
automatically get a Perception check to oppose it. Per
the Core Rulebook, an opponent receives a Perception
check only if the disguised character is actively drawing
attention, if the perceiving character is actively suspicious
of everyone, or if the disguised character is attempting
to impersonate a particular person that the perceiving
character recognizes. Under one of these circumstances,
a perceiving character can attempt one Perception check
right away and then another check each hour.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Actually, if it was just a fly 3 times per day item, it would work perfectly fine with druids. The boots are a bit weird though, especially since they lists concentration checks and I am not sure how they are intended to interact with polymorph effects.

They more or less shut off and can't be used when you polymorph.

Quote:
"The item is so good/underpriced, that it becomes an attractive buy, even for classes who normally can't use them properly"

THAT is a much better argument.

The thing is this

1) is only a great tactic when everyone makes the investment, not very likely in PFS.

2) Would actually let another character use their stealth/disguise/ mad skillz... which would be a good thing.

3) in pfs spending 7.5 k and both your ring slots for something like this is pretty unlikely at levels where it really matters. Fighting types NEED gear in the main 6, and this isn't it. A scroll and UMD or hiring a spellcaster to baleful polymorph would be a far more economical option.

The item has problems. Obviously, the ability to activate it 7 times per day is a lot, and it is quite cheap.

The item does have downsides (which can be covered by other party members) but while you spend money to overcome some of them (the ring of eloquence seems like the obvious choice) the advantages are pretty good for many characters (dex based, and spellcasters) for the right build it is just that good.

I am not that worried about druids getting the ability to become songbirds and perform similar to wildshape, but the price really is very low compared to the druidic vestments. However, in this case, a class that can already access a similar ability (wild shape) get's access to such an effect. For other classes and builds, the effect will be more pronounced.

If your build is based on dex and melee attacks, chances are good, that the ring would be a straight upgrade for you. Of course for the full benefit, you will want to access mage armorin one way or another.
I have a level 5 melee hunter (well I have 5 hunters) and even though with 18 STR and 14 DEX I am really strength based... the ring would even be an attractive option for that character (the fact, that I could use tough attacks makes this surprisingly viable) even without actually using certain tricks to get more natural attacks in bird shape. The fact that the ring is a command activate item even means, that I could hold a touch spell (or with frostbite several charges of a touch spell).

It may not be an ideal option, but considering that this would allow me to take a round to transform (maybe before combat), and then hit the enemy with a bite, deliver a frostbite to make him fatigued and unless my enemy succeeds on a reflex save entangle him with vine strike. That attack would deal 1d3+4 + 1d6 physical + 1d6+5 nonlethal frost damage. Not bad for a backup option.. actually pretty good especially compared to my MW composite longbow.

The price and uses per day really seem to be the problem, you can activate it often enough that, that you could afford to activate it just in case there will be combat at the next location.

2-3 times per day for 6000-8000 would make the item much more reasonable. For the current price, it is an attractive option for a lot of classes and cheap enough to buy, just in case. For those classes that can really benefit, it is severely underpriced (but my suggested changes would help a lot.

Another reason why this ring is so unpleasant is that you can buy it relatively early, and push your AC into the area where only nat 20s will hit you... which in theory is ok for a tank with combat expertise and maybe with a shield... but characters with the ring really don't have a decreased offense... offense just gets better.

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