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First let me say I'm not a fan of banning items or feats in general from play, but this item has been the point of contention across a number of locales in the past and recently came up in a conversation. So it got me thinking and evaluating the ring differently.
The ring fits the flavor of Golarion well and at first glance even seems fine, but on further examination is both incredibly overpowered and underpriced and is even somewhat confusing.
Now, to get into some of the argument I'll show my work, but realize that the crafting rules don't really matter in PFS.
It includes a Ring of Protection +1 - (1 (technically bonus squared) * 2000 gp) = 2000gp
On a ring that uses Beast Shape 4 - 7 times a day to give 10 minutes of being a songbird. - (Ok, here's the first confusing part - Beast Shape 4 - min CL = 11, that duration matches CL 10, and the ring is CL 7.)
- (6 (Spell Level) * 7 (CL ring) * 1800 * (7/5)) = 105840
or (6 (Spell Level) * 10 (CL duration) * 1800 * (7/5)) = 151200
or (6 (Spell Level) * 11 (CL spell) * 1800 * (7/5)) = 166320
So you add the ring + 1.5 the deflection. to get somewhere between 108840 and 169320 gp
Now, since you aren't really using the full abilities of Beast Shape (i.e. only one form available) there's probably some reducing factor here - though there isn't any clear indication what that might be, let's assume 1/20th of the cost of the beast shape instead and you end up with a cost (including the deflection cost) of 8292 - 11316gp or 2 to 3 times the cost of it as written. (Though I personally think this is incredibly low overall)
Just to double check the math on this, let's instead compare the cost to a Ring of Protection + 1, that gives fly 1/day. (Which is probably the least powerful aspect of the ring you commonly see)
Fly - (3 (spell level) * 5 (caster level) * 1800 * 1/5 (once/day)) = 5400 gp
+ 1.5 * Deflection (2000) = 8400 gp.
And that's for 5 minutes of flight a day, not 70.
(As a comparison 10 minutes 1/day would be 13800gp and 10 minutes 7/day 78600gp)
In addition to the amount of flight you get - it's also a much faster fly speed (120) than the fly spell (60) that guarantees you to the full speed since your armor is subsumed.
You also get size bonuses to AC, Dex, and Stealth, and low-light vision.
Now for another point I've seen lead to confusion - the ring specifies Beast Shape 4 - which has the entry for tiny magical beasts instead of Beast Shape 2 - which has Tiny Animal. I've seen this lead people to believe you get +8 Dex, +3 NA, instead of the +4 Dex, +1 NA of the animal entry.
Next point of contention, Beast Shape can be dismissed, except dismissing a spell requires a Verbal Command (since Beast shape itself requires verbal components). So, once you're a bird are you a bird for 10 minutes (I believe so, without some other mitigating factor, like a Ring of Eloquence or Beastspeak).
And for a point of reference. I personally have a character who could buy this ring for +5 to his attack (1 height now that I'm flying, 2 size and 2 DEX), +5 to AC (2 DEX, 1 NA, 2 Size), and no damage change (the die decrease is balanced by the Dex increase on average). (No, I don't have the ring)
I just can't see how this item should be considered balanced, especially considering it spawn an entire build that has become semi-(in)famous.
Contributor
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Look, let me at least get some for more of my characters, just in case it gets grandfathered. ^_^
That said, there's definitely something to consider here. While I'd be lying if I said I wanted it removed from Society play, what I want and what's best for organized play aren't always the same.
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It's always interesting to see what things are trouble to different areas. We haven't really had anybody with this ring Omaha way.
We actually haven't had that much trouble with it here either. But it's hard to ignore with more and more Unchained Rogue's being made (including a number by players who really like both that deity and item), how breakable the item is (especially if they are multiclassed with Monk in any way). Not to mention entire builds that have been based off of it. (The character I mentioned in the original post, simply using the ring doubles his EDV on a full attack against CR+2 monsters)
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Yes, the flight is powerful, but it comes with a lot of restrictions. You can't cast spells or use a bow and you're mode locked into a form with one natural attack.
People badly misreading a rule because the misreading leads to mechanical advantage is hardly new, and not the fault of the item.
The key point of the songbird of doom relied on master of many styles shenanigans which have since been kyboshed.
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Yes, the flight is powerful, but it comes with a lot of restrictions. You can't cast spells or use a bow and you're mode locked into a form with one natural attack.
People badly misreading a rule because the misreading leads to mechanical advantage is hardly new, and not the fault of the item.
The key point of the songbird of doom relied on master of many styles shenanigans which have since been kyboshed.
Yes, the main build got significantly nerfed, through a completely different nerf. That not withstanding it's not the only one. Nor does it account for one that has been published that requires content that came out at pretty much the same time. Nor, does it even close to account for how incredibly underpriced the item is. As for the casting, it can actually be done in that form for a little investment/creativity (spell selection + a ring or a spell, or the addition of a metamagic feat). And sure you only have one natural attack and can't hold weapons, again super easy to overcome (1 feat or a level dip into 2 classes or at least 1 archetype).
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Yes, the main build got significantly nerfed, through a completely different nerf. That not withstanding it's not the only one. Nor does it account for one that has been published that requires content that came out at pretty much the same time.
And is that build crazy without it, or just good?
Nor, does it even close to account for how incredibly underpriced the item is.
This is very subjective. most of the power in shapeshifting is either in its versatility to overcome a myriad of obstacles with only 1 option (which this ring lacks) or in picking the best form out of a very large grab bag, which this item doesn't.
If we wanted to ban something underpriced because it lets you scout, we should start with the gloves of reconnaissance, which cost far less, put you in less danger, overome the real obstacles to scouting, and don't require you to build a character around them.
As for the casting, it can actually be done in that form for a little investment/creativity (spell selection + a ring or a spell, or the addition of a metamagic feat).
You need eschew materials, your other ring slot/the spell, and still spell (since you probably can't use the rod). .. Or you can just be a druid and do the same thing, without functionally dropping your spell levels by 1.
And sure you only have one natural attack and can't hold weapons, again super easy to overcome (1 feat or a level dip into 2 classes or at least 1 archetype).
I have a foxform tinytank. The build is harder to pull off in practice than it is in theory because you have to have a viable character for the early levels until it kicks off, and by the time it really gets going any kind of melee has to struggle to be relevant against an optimized caster or bow fighter.
You need
This ring (4k. can't get before level 4)
Amulet of mighty fists: Agilee (its italian) 4k
Which you won't have till level 5.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Well doesn't that build suffer from the same problem as all the other dex focussed builds ? Until you have your dex to damage online, things aren't great.
With the very real option to use GM credit, the fact that some DEX heavy builds have a harder time until level 4-5 doesn't matter all that much, and most 1-5 aren't that challenging in any case.
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Yes, the main build got significantly nerfed, through a completely different nerf. That not withstanding it's not the only one. Nor does it account for one that has been published that requires content that came out at pretty much the same time.
And is that build crazy without it, or just good?
It literally doubles the expected damage value of at least 1.
Nor, does it even close to account for how incredibly underpriced the item is.This is very subjective. most of the power in shapeshifting is either in its versatility to overcome a myriad of obstacles with only 1 option (which this ring lacks) or in picking the best form out of a very large grab bag, which this item doesn't.
If we wanted to ban something underpriced because it lets you scout, we should start with the gloves of reconnaissance, which cost far less, put you in less danger, overome the real obstacles to scouting, and don't require you to build a character around them.
Not really, it's actually fairly mathematically provable. Discount the fly if you want, (I won't). But it's fly with double the movement speed (or triple depending on build coming in), low-light vision, a bonus to DEX to increase your Initiative if you do get spotted, a fairly innoucous shape (if you get seen), and a +8 size modifier to stealth. - So let's see under the effects of the ring you've picked up Flight, possibly another vision, +10 to stealth and +2 to Initiative. - 7 times a day for 70 total minutes oh and it's a +1 ring of protection on top. Let's not even try and compare it to anything ridiculous like trying to match the duration and times per day. As a rogue you want to mimic just those effects for scouting you're looking at 1/day 2000gp for the ring of prot (1 time cost) + potion of fly 750gp + Elixir of Hiding 250 gp. Scenario # 2 do it again, potion of fly and elixir of hiding - another 750 and 250 gp. In two scenarios, doing this once per day you've met the cost of the ring, in other words the ring has paid for itself already. Oh and you still didn't account for low-light vision or the fact that you could have stacked elixir of hiding and the ring, or the initiative bump. So yes, please tell me how it's not underpriced.
As for the casting, it can actually be done in that form for a little investment/creativity (spell selection + a ring or a spell, or the addition of a metamagic feat).You need eschew materials, your other ring slot/the spell, and still spell (since you probably can't use the rod). .. Or you can just be a druid and do the same thing, without functionally dropping your spell levels by 1.
Sure, but I wasn't that concerned about a caster using it in the first place. Frankly, if a caster wants to do something like this they already can.
And sure you only have one natural attack and can't hold weapons, again super easy to overcome (1 feat or a level dip into 2 classes or at least 1 archetype).
I have a foxform tinytank. The build is harder to pull off in practice than it is in theory because you have to have a viable character for the early levels until it kicks off, and by the time it really gets going any kind of melee has to struggle to be relevant against an optimized caster or bow fighter.You need
This ring (4k. can't get before level 4)
Amulet of mighty fists: Agilee (its italian) 4k
Which you won't have till level 5.
Or you know just be an unchained rogue with the ring. Which you can get at level 4, and you already have DEX to damage, with room to spare with a feat or a level to dip to get Improved Unarmed Strike. - So yeah it doesn't hit it's full ability until level 4. What build really does, 4-7 is where most actually hit their stride and on the way there you're still a perfectly viable class (who btw is doesn't really come together until level 3 anyway).
I understand that the item is more limited than any of it's requirements, but it mathematically can't be so limiting that they reduce it's value by 98+%. Show me some math, any math that actually makes that argument and I'll concede your point. But I can't find it. It's why in my original post I looked at just Fly as part of the argument. Which as a 1/day ability by itself would cost more than the ring of Seven Lovely Colors, let alone a ring of prot with added abilities. Would a ring that just gave you the flight ability of this ring (as you say reduced versatility flight since casting and weapons are out, at least without additional things, even though you get double the duration and speed) really cost 952gp? That's functionally what the ring would cost if you remove the ring of protection from the equation and make it a once a day ability. It would the second cheapest ring in Pathfinder. The cheapest magic ring by the way doesn't even do anything with out it's other half that costs 16000, so instead let's round up to 1000gp. Now it's tied for second with 2 other rings - one becomes a signet ring when it's wearer puts it on, the other makes clubs out of a gallon of water. Hmm, I think I'll take the "more limited" version of fly, on every character, thanks.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Show me some math, any math that actually makes that argument and I'll concede your point.
We can't provide math for everything
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Except most of that post actually goes to disprove his concluding statement. (Not to say it isn't without merit, or a nice post to reference) In fact it mostly explains decisions that don't seem at first glance to be mathematically relevant but are actual variables in the calculation that as designers that have some mental codification for but not a set number. (Increasing CRs or not due to DR and it's type, comparisons with average monster stats, lower HP on things with more immunities, etc.) and it's a fairly incomplete quote taken out of context, but even without the context the full quote and your quote read differentlyShow me some math, any math that actually makes that argument and I'll concede your point.We can't provide math for everything
We can't provide math for everything, it would be too long and would still allow people to cheese-out monsters to be unbeatable or put together fail-combos where the monster is way too weak for its level despite matching what's on the charts.
And I know that there is an undefined element in the math of the ring, I even call it out, and make up a number for it for sake of comparison.
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Not really, it's actually fairly mathematically provable
It is not. All of those benefits come with costs that you're not even trying to calculate, especially if you're trying to compare permanent items with consumables.
It literally doubles the expected damage value of at least 1.
ok.. and? Lots of items are great for just the right build.
Or you know just be an unchained rogue with the ring. Which you can get at level 4, and you already have DEX to damage, with room to spare with a feat or a level to dip to get Improved Unarmed Strike.
And then you are unarmed striking in bird form for 1d3+9 damage, can't flank, get an AOO every time you move into someone's square to attack, and your beak does 1d3- more than three damage because the rogues dex to damage only works with one weapon until level 11
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Or you know just be an unchained rogue with the ring. Which you can get at level 4, and you already have DEX to damage, with room to spare with a feat or a level to dip to get Improved Unarmed Strike.
And then you are unarmed striking in bird form for 1d3+9 damage, can't flank, get an AOO every time you move into someone's square to attack, and your beak does 1d3- more than three damage because the rogues dex to damage only works with one weapon until level 11
Sure, and if that one weapon is unarmed strikes? (They can be finessed) Can't flank, 1 level dip into mouser. And only provokes against medium or smaller opponents. But either way, I'm done arguing, I've stated my case and given numbers and examples.
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Sure, and if that one weapon is unarmed strikes? (They can be finessed) Can't flank, 1 level dip into mouser. And only provokes against medium or smaller opponents. But either way, I'm done arguing, I've stated my case and given numbers and examples.
You have not given numbers. You are pretending to give numbers on one half of the sheet and not looking at the downsides. the other half of the sheet has numbers discounted at a value that you just made up. You keep piling on more things you need to overcome the downsides: Other level dips, different gear, feats, class abilities...and never add them onto the cost to see if you wind up with something reasonable in the end or not with the added costs.
Yes, i know unarmed strikes can be finessed. Thats why i said +9 damage and not 1d3-4 damage. Oh my god the rogue is using weapon finesse to do... way less damage than the barbarian.
Forget math. Show evidence. Give me a build with this ring that's so terrifying.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Not really, it's actually fairly mathematically provable. Discount the fly if you want, (I won't). But it's fly with double the movement speed (or triple depending on build coming in), low-light vision, a bonus to DEX to increase your Initiative if you do get spotted, a fairly innoucous shape (if you get seen), and a +8 size modifier to stealth. - So let's see under the effects of the ring you've picked up Flight, possibly another vision, +10 to stealth and +2 to Initiative. - 7 times a day for 70 total minutes oh and it's a +1 ring of protection on top. Let's not even try and compare it to anything ridiculous like trying to match the duration and times per day. As a rogue you want to mimic just those effects for scouting you're looking at 1/day 2000gp for the ring of prot (1 time cost) + potion of fly 750gp + Elixir of Hiding 250 gp. Scenario # 2 do it again, potion of fly and elixir of hiding - another 750 and 250 gp. In two scenarios,...
Actually if you were to try and compare it to something similar its pretty bad. Comparing it to my one build its flight duration is lower by a factor of infinity. The stealth issue is relatively a moot point. And the ring of protection is weirdly moot also.
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Kinecist bird.
They need a prehensile limb to throw things don't they? The feet may or may not qualify.
She must have at least one hand free to aim the blast (or one prehensile appendage, if she doesn't have hands).
The dex to hit would be nice, but they don't get it to damage do they? (not that familiar with kineticists) Gunslingers effectively get a better bonus to hit from targeting touch AC.
Physic anything.
You're gaining a bunch of ac but losing access to most equipment. Its a really good tactic but still has its downsides, and per the faq you still look like you're casting a spell. (probably with coocoo clock swirly eyes)
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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The dex to hit would be nice, but they don't get it to damage do they? (not that familiar with kineticists) Gunslingers effectively get a better bonus to hit from targeting touch AC.Dex for hit, Con or 1/2 Con for damage. The usual wisdom is that Kineticists need every inch of to hit they can leverage, which a tiny +Dex Wild Shape would be quite beneficial for.
As for gathering and aiming, songbird has legs or wings, dealer's choice, of prehensile appendages in theory. Shouldn't be a problem.
I should snag one of these rings for my home game kineticist...
Those aren't prehensile appendages.
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People badly misreading a rule because the misreading leads to mechanical advantage is hardly new, and not the fault of the item.
QFT - tedious as it may seem, it's really better to handle "munchkins" in a Whack-A-Mole fashion than to allow them to be Why We Can't Have Nice Things.
As a veteran player I used to play with would say, "Ethics, man." That credo should be recognized on par with "don't be a jerk."
I'm so f@@$ing sick of the LCD causing people to want the game "toddler-proofed."
The ring has the functions of a protection ring +1. Which means you've got some hard choices when you want improvements. You can't upgrade that function in PFS So you wind up either living with that limitation, or using your other ring slot to get a better protection ring at full cost.
While I can think of several of my characters who would love it for roleplaying reasons or it's options for mobility, I can't think of a single one of them where that ring improves his or her wargaming capabilities. Most of the spellcasters have flight magic, and means of being stealthy without giving up practically all of their options.
And sure this ring is great for a kineticist... if they want to eat Burn like mad.
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The ring is underpriced but not by as huge an amount as the OP thinks.
I have a mouser Kitsune who fights in Fox form. At level 6 he was about on par with a barbarian for expected damage. Which IS too powerful considering that the barbarian really ONLY does damage and the Kitsune does much more.
But he isn't brokenly overpowered.
The ring let me get by some significant limitations very cheaply. Suddenly I have (essentially) free flight at will with no change to my combat effectiveness.
4k is too cheap for that. I'd guesstimate a value of about 10k for my character. I certainly would NOT buy it at 20k, I'd just rely on potions of fly.
The best solution in my mind would be to increase the price of the item. Not going to happen as a PFS only rule (nor should it).
I think banning underpriced items is a step that should be taken only under the most extreme circumstances. And I just don't see this item as SO underpriced that it warrants that banning.
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Haven't seen it in play and the OP themselves says they also haven't seen it being used.
While the ring has some interesting benefits I don't think it needs to be banned. Of course I always tend to lean toward not banning game options but this campaign shocks me now and then with what they choose for banning.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Lyric the Singing Paladin has been saving up for one of these because.. well, Shelyn. It will serve her no benefit other than as occasional transportation and as a ring of protection +1.
I was also hoping to get it as the "wild shape" of my future Feyspeaker Druid, so that she had a shape she could reliably take and have some kind of druid bragging rights.
Please do not ban it.
I've seen some cute theories off of it, but most of them break down for other reasons. I've never actually seen it abused in play. I love it's flavor. I love that it's a pretty little ring that protects you a little and lets you turn into a songbird.
Please do not ban it.
This thread makes me really unhappy.
Hmm
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1st I am not a huge advocate of retroactive banning of anything but ...
allow me to compare this to another Item that was banned
Bracers of Falcons Aim. - this provided a constant level 1 spell Aspect of the Falcon for 4k Gold , and was banned for being overpowered
while the bracers only benefited characters with bows / x-bows .. a similarity can be drawn to any character that uses a dex to damage build in melee - with an emphasis on monks
and IMHO this is a much more powerful effect -
so yes I agree this should have a ban consideration
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1) Fly 120
2) believe you get +8 Dex, +3 NA, instead of the +4 Dex, +1 NA of the animal entry.
3) Can't dismiss [cause reasons]
4) I just can't see how this item should be considered balanced, especially considering it spawn an entire build that has become semi-(in)famous.
1) BS IV can do 120, but you only get 40 good because that is what the raven has.
2) Tell them they are wrong/confused/incorrect?
3) Correct. You are a bird for 10 minutes unless you can speak (Ring of Eloquence) which everyone that has the ring will have. So shrug?
4) Pretty much the entire build thread had tons of rules interactions wrong and a lot of things that are not PFS legal. So shrug?
Anyway, if this item is banned they should ban these also:
Bat Shape (PFS legal with Skinwalker boon) - Tiny Flying Fox form.
Fox Shape (PFS legal Kitsune) - Tiny Fox form.
Arsinotherium (cause 6d8+STR on a Druid 4/Ranger 2 Feral Combat Training ends combats FAST)
It sounds like the root issue is people simply don't know how this item works or the rules surrounding it?
It makes me wonder if the OP has played a build like this (tiny)? I have. Double provoking when you move to be in the same square so you can attack is a pain. You take damage from that more than you do from being attacked on monster's turns. You can't flank (without a level in Swashbuckler Mouser). You can't gain reach (Lunge only works when making attacks; Longarm bracers are expensive and limited; all other methods suck)
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It's always interesting to see what things are trouble to different areas. We haven't really had anybody with this ring Omaha way.We actually haven't had that much trouble with it here either. But it's hard to ignore with more and more Unchained Rogue's being made (including a number by players who really like both that deity and item), how breakable the item is (especially if they are multiclassed with Monk in any way). Not to mention entire builds that have been based off of it. (The character I mentioned in the original post, simply using the ring doubles his EDV on a full attack against CR+2 monsters)
I get your concern, and if the ring is actually causing trouble, then I agree that removing it from the AR should be an option. However, I think we should be very careful about removing things because they might cause trouble somewhere down the line.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Not really, it's actually fairly mathematically provableIt is not. All of those benefits come with costs that you're not even trying to calculate, especially if you're trying to compare permanent items with consumables.
He actually failed the first step in item creation. Compare to similar items. Featherscale cloak is 4,000 gp and allows a bird form and a lot of other stuff along with 2,500 gp worth of +5 swim.
I guess we need to ban all the various 8,000 gp and less items that allow a polymorph form.
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It makes me wonder if the OP has played a build like this (tiny)? I have. Double provoking when you move to be in the same square so you can attack is a pain. You take damage from that more than you do from being attacked on monster's turns. You can't flank (without a level in Swashbuckler Mouser). You can't gain reach (Lunge only works when making attacks; Longarm bracers are expensive and limited; all other methods suck)
I don't know about the OP but I've certainly played my Kitsune Mouser. The provoking isn't a huge issue since I have a very high acrobatics skill, lots of movement and a quite high AC.
There IS considerable variation on what the DC of the acrobatics check is but almost all GMs allow it (much of the play was before they decided that a 5 ft step into somebodies square provokes but it really has made very little difference).
One of the down sides is that the character is fairly complex with unexpected rules interactions. But I make sure to check with the GM at the start of the session how they'll rule things and let them know the potential issues.
The ring is just gravy on my character. Tasty gravy admittedly. If it was outlawed my character would be essentially unchanged, I'd just buy some potions of fly :-)
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You don't double provoke when you enter a square. Its only one movement related aoo from movement, it just doesn't get the same 5 foot exception most movement does.
Tiny and smaller creatures: In the section on Tiny and smaller creatures, it says that entering a creature’s space provokes an attack of opportunity, but typically 5-foot steps don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If a Tiny or smaller creature took a 5-foot step into a creature’s space, would it provoke an attack of opportunity?
Yes. Even with a 5-foot step, a Tiny or smaller creature entering a creature’s space provokes an attack of opportunity (unless it is using a more specific ability to avoid the attack of opportunity such as the Monkey Shine feat). This doesn’t mean that a Tiny or smaller creature entering a creature’s space and moving out of a threatened square with a move action provokes two attacks of opportunity from that creature, for the same reason that moving out of multiple of a creature’s threatened squares in the same move action doesn’t provoke two attacks of opportunity.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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One of the things that makes me unhappy about this is that this is what Lyric started saving up for when she stopped saving up for Boots of Earth... But Boots of Earth I kind of understood (though I hated the nerf, especially coming on top of the nerf to her favored class bonus.)
There are a thousand things I could spend money on that would make Lyric more effective in combat. This was something that I was looking at because it was cute, thematic to her deity, and fun.
It bugs me that everyone would lose access to an adorable magic item that hasn't proven to be a problem in actual play... Is it really causing issues or ruining other people's fun?
Hmm
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It sounds like the biggest challenge is that the ring provides early access to a particular subset of polymorph rules that aren't universally well-understood and interact weirdly with a couple of other subsystems. I think I agree that that, by itself, is not reason enough to ban an item if legitimate abuse is rare or nonexistent.
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It sounds like the biggest challenge is that the ring provides early access to a particular subset of polymorph rules that aren't universally well-understood and interact weirdly with a couple of other subsystems. I think I agree that that, by itself, is not reason enough to ban an item if legitimate abuse is rare or nonexistent.
4th level, about the same time a druid gets a small critter this just gets a tiny. Or 3rd level if you're kitsune.
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One thing is for sure, the ring causes a dramatic amount of table variation over the polymorph rules since the gm is the final arbitrator. I bought one and have not used it but am firmly of the opinion that one can not use the styles of the monkies, cranes, and snakes or necessary parry and riposte as a raven...
A crow can't do CRANE style? That is just wrong on so many levels.
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It sounds like the biggest challenge is that the ring provides early access to a particular subset of polymorph rules that aren't universally well-understood and interact weirdly with a couple of other subsystems. I think I agree that that, by itself, is not reason enough to ban an item if legitimate abuse is rare or nonexistent.4th level, about the same time a druid gets a small critter this just gets a tiny. Or 3rd level if you're kitsune.
Druids get Tiny creatures at 6th, and Tiny size combatants come along with all sorts of little complications a lot of GMs (in my experience) are unfamiliar with--as you pointed out above!
Arcane spellcasters have access to Beast Shape but very rarely cast it.
Druids effectively get Beast Shape with exceptions, which are spelled out clearly in the Druid class description, which a lot of people have read. The Beast Shape rules themselves, on the other hand, seem to not be read much at all.
And on top of that, I don't know what other regions have, but I've only ever seen one druid in PFS! So we, at least, are not exactly providing GMs with druidic learning experiences, so there's no Wild Shape curriculum at all. But that point is only true for some regions, YMMV, etc.
That's all.
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Not really, it's actually fairly mathematically provableIt is not. All of those benefits come with costs that you're not even trying to calculate, especially if you're trying to compare permanent items with consumables.
He actually failed the first step in item creation. Compare to similar items. Featherscale cloak is 4,000 gp and allows a bird form and a lot of other stuff along with 2,500 gp worth of +5 swim.
I guess we need to ban all the various 8,000 gp and less items that allow a polymorph form.
No in fact I did compare it to similarly priced items, a couple posts down. If you just look at the polymorph ability you need to compare with 1300k or less items since the added ring of protection is part of the design and can be fully accounted for in the math. That not withstanding, if you were to compare with 4k items, you should start by looking across slots as they make bad comparisons - cloaks/headband/belt tend to be cheaper than they should for the utility as it's a single slot with what are generally considered must have items, otherwise 4k belt of +2 Dex, well the ring gets you +4 that stacks with belts for 70 minutes a day (in 7 10 minute intervals) which even in an AP is most if not all of the fighting in an adventuring day. 4k gp rings - there are two others, one lets you cast 3 bloodrager bloodline spells per day without expending them by using extra rounds of rage and a ring of counterspells. - Slightly less expensive you've got the the ring of stars and stairs, that's a ring of feather fall with a 1/day magic missile and an illusory butterfly (actually quite good for the price - but exactly priced correctly, if we consider the 1 minute buttefly illusion free), a ring that lets you ignore staggered 5 rounds/day and others none of which have the added ring of protection effect.
Other slot items that cost about 1300gp to compare with (just for arguments sake) - Beneficial Bandolier - banned already, Quick Runner's Shirt - banned already, Meridian Belt - give you 4 ring slots, but only 2 are active at any one time, Endless Bandolier - pretty much a slotted efficient quiver for gunslingers, Dissident's Gloves - arcane mark for divine casters (in flavor only), Claws of the Ice Bear bonuses to Climb and Acrobatics, negate penalties on slippery surfaces, and 3 rounds per day of spider climb. Boots of the Cat (min damage from falls), and Boots of Soft Step (decreases tremorsenses ability to "see" you), etc. There are a couple of good items in there, but none provide even close to the same amount of utility.
The ring is underpriced but not by as huge an amount as the OP thinks.
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4k is too cheap for that. I'd guesstimate a value of about 10k for my character. I certainly would NOT buy it at 20k, I'd just rely on potions of fly.
The best solution in my mind would be to increase the price of the item. Not going to happen as a PFS only rule (nor should it).
I think banning underpriced items is a step that should be taken only under the most extreme circumstances. And I just don't see this item as SO underpriced that it warrants that banning.
That amount is much closer to what I believe the item should actually be priced at than it's current number. I actually think a more reasonable step than banning would be something along the lines of Beast Shape II, 1/day, Must be a worshipper of Shelyn, but only one of those lines is really a PFS team decision and they haven't made that ruling about any of the other items in the book. So, I feel that a ban (possibly only in the interim) is a valid request.
The ring has the functions of a protection ring +1. Which means you've got some hard choices when you want improvements. You can't upgrade that function in PFS So you wind up either living with that limitation, or using your other ring slot to get a better protection ring at full cost.
Sure, except that rings of protection +1 are nearly ubiquitous, while far fewer actually do upgrade them as the double bonus squared starts getting very expensive at about the same time where monsters attack really starts to raise and make higher ACs moot.
As for the provoking. 1 provocation, just 5 foot stepping still can provoke. And all of this provoking you can still use acrobatics to get around, which you get a bonus to from the DEX, and you don't provoke from moving through the square of anything large or bigger.
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It bugs me that everyone would lose access to an adorable magic item that hasn't proven to be a problem in actual play... Is it really causing issues or ruining other people's fun?
I've seen it in play, I've also have had players who have played with it come up and complain about how a build built around it has ruined the table for them. I've also have had GM's complain about it ruining the tables fun.
I've also seen a 7-11 scenario be pretty much soloed by the build.
So yes, in some places it has caused issues.
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It bugs me that everyone would lose access to an adorable magic item that hasn't proven to be a problem in actual play... Is it really causing issues or ruining other people's fun?I've seen it in play, I've also have had players who have played with it come up and complain about how a build built around it has ruined the table for them. I've also have had GM's complain about it ruining the tables fun.
I've also seen a 7-11 scenario be pretty much soloed by the build.
So yes, in some places it has caused issues.
That's pretty much all I'm looking for, first-hand accounts of the item causing problems, and not just the possibility for the ring maybe causing problems. If there are other in Jeffrey's position, please speak up, so people actually know that it is causing trouble in actual tables.
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It bugs me that everyone would lose access to an adorable magic item that hasn't proven to be a problem in actual play... Is it really causing issues or ruining other people's fun?I've seen it in play, I've also have had players who have played with it come up and complain about how a build built around it has ruined the table for them. I've also have had GM's complain about it ruining the tables fun.
I've also seen a 7-11 scenario be pretty much soloed by the build.
So yes, in some places it has caused issues.
This is the same for druids, druids pets, gunslingers, control wizards, zen archers archer rangers archer fighter,summoners, summoner pets, grappling monks, grappling summoners pets, archer paladins, paladins, daze clerics, mounted combatants, superstitious barbarians....
This one at least relies on full attacks. I don't know what the rest of the party is doing that the thing can full attack that much.
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This is the same for druids, druids pets, gunslingers, control wizards, zen archers archer rangers archer fighter,summoners, summoner pets, grappling monks, grappling summoners pets, archer paladins, paladins, daze clerics, mounted combatants, superstitious barbarians....
This one at least relies on full attacks. I don't know what the rest of the party is doing that the thing can full attack that much.
I've seen everything on that list played, plus a few more broken builds. But depending on the multi-class combination you don't need to rely on full attacks. Some insane things can be done with this build if you increase the reach in order to be able to use AoO.
I'm not going into the full build because frankly having that out into the world doesn't help.
The thing with this build is it's based on an item that has a dodgy price point and power level. If the price is increased to a reasonable amount, or if the power level of the item comes down then while annoying it's not as much of a fun killer.
Changing it to a once per day item would be an awesome change that keeps the flavorful item in the campaign and limits the way it can negatively effect the campaign.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Lyric looks sadly at the pretty ring that's sitting in the Shelynite Temple gift shop window.
You could lobby for a campaign clarification, that says that the effects of the ring end whenever the casters makes a hostile action or casts a spell while using the ring.
Especially considering the paladin code of Shelyn, she really is not in favor of striking first.|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I also had the pleasure of running a scenario for a player with a build like this, first unbuffed (and without Piranha Strike - apparently there is a discussion of this works without a manufactured weapon but ignoring that for the moment, and excluding traits)
Halfling fighter (unarmed fighter) 1/monk (unchained) 1/paladin (iroran paladin) 2/swashbuckler (mouser) 1 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56, 125, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 48, Pathfinder Unchained 14)
LG Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +6; Senses Perception +11
Aura aura of law
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 22, flat-footed 13 (+1 deflection, +8 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 size, +1 Wis)
hp 45 (5d10+11)
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +7; +2 vs. fear
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee unarmed strike +12/+12 (1d4+6)
Special Attacks deeds (derring-do, dodging panache), flurry of blows (unchained), panache (2), personal trial, stunning fist (2/day, DC 13)
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Statistics
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Str 6, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +2; CMD 21
Feats Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Piranha Strike, Snake Style[UC], Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+11 to jump), Climb +0, Perception +11, Sense Motive +3, Stealth +18; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Climb, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ confident defense +2, lay on hands 3/day (1d6), sense perfection, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear agile amulet of mighty fists, belt of incredible dexterity +2, ring of seven lovely colors, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Aura of Law (Su) The paladin has an Aura of Law with power equal to her class level.
Confident Defense +2 When lightly armored with no shield add Cha to AC.
Deeds
Fearless +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck.
Flurry of Blows (Unchained) (Ex) As full-rd action, gain extra attacks with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 3/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Personal Trial (1/day) (Su) +1 insight bonus to hit, damage, saves, and AC vs. target.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Sense Perfection (Su) At will, you can detect if a creature has a ki pool.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (2/day, DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist Helper This is a dummy ability to add an extra entry for the stunning fist feat in another section of the statblock (since it is shown with a different name in the two places, we can't use sbName).
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having
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AC 22 without using a wand or potion of mage armor or using a potion of reduce (which would be THE alternative to the ring).
Without using piranha strike we are looking at flurry of blows +12/+12 1d4+6 AC 22, Saves Fort +12 Ref +13 Will +7. That's already pretty good.
And please not the character has Snake style so the weapon finesse feat might not be relevant (snake style turns your unarmed strike into a piercing weapon, thus enabling swashbucklers finesse).
Now with the ring activated:
Birdy
Halfling fighter (unarmed fighter) 1/monk (unchained) 1/paladin (iroran paladin) 2/swashbuckler (mouser) 1 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56, 125, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 48, Pathfinder Unchained 14)
LG Tiny humanoid (halfling)
Init +8; Senses Perception +9
Aura aura of law
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 25, flat-footed 15 (+1 deflection, +10 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 natural, +2 size, +1 Wis)
hp 45 (5d10+11)
Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +7; +2 vs. fear
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Offense
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Speed 10 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee unarmed strike +15/+15 (1d3+8) or
. . bite +15 (1d3+12)
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks flurry of blows (unchained), panache (2), personal trial
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Statistics
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Str 4, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +11; CMD 21
Feats Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Piranha Strike, Snake Style[UC], Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+7 to jump), Perception +9, Sense Motive +3, Stealth +24
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ confident defense +2, lay on hands 3/day (1d6), sense perfection, swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear agile amulet of mighty fists, belt of incredible dexterity +2, ring of seven lovely colors, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Aura of Law (Su) The paladin has an Aura of Law with power equal to her class level.
Confident Defense +2 When lightly armored with no shield add Cha to AC.
Fearless +2 racial bonus on all saving throws against fear. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by halfling luck.
Flight (40 feet, Average) You can fly!
Flurry of Blows (Unchained) (Ex) As full-rd action, gain extra attacks with unarmed strike/monk weapons.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Lay on Hands (1d6 hit points, 3/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Personal Trial (1/day) (Su) +1 insight bonus to hit, damage, saves, and AC vs. target.
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Sense Perfection (Su) At will, you can detect if a creature has a ki pool.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (2/day, DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having
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Same stat line without (and remember without easy to get mage armor )
Without using piranha strike we are looking at flurry of blows +15/+15 1d3+8 AC 26, Saves Fort +12 Ref +15 Will +7.
Ok with the basics covered, how does that character work:
If possible go into bird form before combat, it will not be an option before every encounter, but often enough.
Once combat starts try to get close to your enemy (enter his square if possible with AC 26+ and mobility your chances to get hit are slim) but if it isn't possible, wait for your enemy to attack you, so you can use:
At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.
Once your are in your enemies square, attacking anyone but you because very unattractive, so the enemy has to try to deal with the bird (combat maneuvers might be an option, but the AOO is likely to make this difficult):
While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
The character has a couple of other class features, but the ring is really the factor here (and the ability to fly really helps to avoid enemies, so the bird can attack the casters), and we are talking about an effect that really only costs 2000 GP (or 4000 if you want to buy another ring of protection if it is that important, of course there are other cheapter options to increase your AC first).
I had this character in Faithless and Forgotten III, if he had been buffed all the time, I would have had to roll a 20 on pretty much every attack including any touch attacks (touch AC 25 in bird form).