What is the big difference between drawing a weapon as part of a regular move over retrieving an item similiarly? I know it doesn't say anywhere that you can, but I don't get why. Draw a dagger off your belt as part of a move, but not your wand loaded with an attack spell from a similiar location? And I mean, presuming the item was in easy reach like on a bandolier or strapped to your belt just like a weapon would be, why is it different? I get it if you have to rummage through your bag for it, but not if it's on a bandolier or on your belt like a weapon would be, so why can't we retrieve an item located similiarly to our weapons as part of a regular move?
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Because once combat starts, Pathfinder is a tactical combat game, not a role-playing game. So the rules of combat are based on an attempt to achieve balance, not internal consistency or "realism".
Emphasis mine.Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
Ah, good catch. I was apparently thinking of the Quick Draw feat, which specifies it only works for weapons, not wands. Perhaps the OP was as well; dunno.
Okay, so wands are okay to retrieve as part of a move action if you have +1 BAB, cool, but what about splash weapons? Like Alchemist's Fire and Acid? If you can retrieve those as part of a move action, why not other flask type items like potions and such, all once again presuming they are stored in reach like on a bandolier or belt or such not in your pack.
Wands are allowed, but think of it as this: your character is completely decked out in stuff. Valeros has straps, clasps, belts and whatnot all over his body. A wand could be in easy reach, just like a weapon, they're designed to unsheathe easily and be ready when combat breaks out. Scrolls and potions are much more fragile and could break if the pocket is suddenly opened. The move action to retrieve it represents opening and fastening the string/button/buckle to the pouch your item is in.
Okay, so wands are okay to retrieve as part of a move action if you have +1 BAB, cool, but what about splash weapons? Like Alchemist's Fire and Acid? If you can retrieve those as part of a move action, why not other flask type items like potions and such, all once again presuming they are stored in reach like on a bandolier or belt or such not in your pack.
One reason that alchemical weapons are allowed and potions are not is due to the fact of how they are used. To use an alchemical weapon you pretty much just pull it out and throw it. The idea is to get the substance all over the target. Potion on the other hand not only need to be retrieved they need to be opened without spill them all over the place. It’s the difference between pulling out a bottle of beer to throw at someone vs pulling it out and opening it and removing the cap.
If you are crafting wands, make them using an arrow as the base item.
As ammo, drawing them isn't even an action at all.
Solves the wand problem at least...
If you are crafting wands, make them using an arrow as the base item.
As ammo, drawing them isn't even an action at all.
Solves the wand problem at least...
That is devious and highly subject to DM approval, but I will ask him about it, I won't be crafting wands until higher level anyhow, was just using them as an example, didn't know they were now covered by the draw a weapon while moving rule.
One reason that alchemical weapons are allowed and potions are not is due to the fact of how they are used. To use an alchemical weapon you pretty much just pull it out and throw it. The idea is to get the substance all over the target. Potion on the other hand not only need to be retrieved they need to be opened without spill them all over the place. It’s the difference between pulling out a bottle of beer to throw at someone vs pulling it out and opening it and removing the cap.
I'm not questioning that drinking a potion is a standard action, just as throwing a splash weapon is a standard action to throw, your arguement is invalid because for both items it's a move action to retrieve it and a standard to use, why is one able to be drawn while moving and one takes an entire move action to retrieve? I just don't see why if it's in reach it'd be more difficult to grab, If we need to use a potion on our turn we have to stand still and get potion(move action), open and drink potion(standard action) and be done. Why can't I also move around a bit while retrieving the potion if it's within easy reach?
I mean, what if it's a potion of Bestow Curse and I intend to use it to cast Beguiling Gift on an opponent? That is kinda weaponlike, why can't I retrieve this offensive potion while I move into range of an enemy to use it?
People keep giving reasons like "Because the rules say so." and I want more solid reasons why my character is capable of retriving weaponlike items while moving and is apparently incapable of doing so for other items within similiar reach. Are player characters just uncoordinated unless it's a weapon? For some reason?
It’s the difference between pulling out a bottle of beer to throw at someone vs pulling it out and opening it and removing the cap.
Hey- lets make this a bottle of gin at least.
So that it has a high enough proof that you can make it into alchemist's fire. Just toss a match and you are done.
Also as ammo it's destroyed upon use!
That is if it hits it's target, if the ammo is just pulled out and swung around or pointed at people it wouldn't just break for no reason. Only if you smack someone with it or throw it at someone. But it would probly have a much lower hardness and HP and would probly be fragile, it might just break for swinging it around, but I doubt it would be destroyed beyond repair so spontaneously. A simple mending spell could fix up a broken wand without losing it's magic. I laugh when I think of someone swinging an arrow around as a wand and then it just snaps. All subject to DM discretion tho if it'd be destroyed for one use or break or if it'd even be possible to make.
Again, as someone posted above, the distinction exists for game play reasons, not for logical reasons. Obviously someone(s) at Wizards of the Coast thought it was important for a character to be able to draw a weapon and attack in the same round. But one can surmise that they didn't want someone to draw and drink a potion while moving. Why? Who the heck knows. But one reason could be to facilitate the creation of abilities or feats that allow one to do just that.
If you find it annoying that something doesn't make any real world sense? Welcome to the club. But recognize that changing that rule is going to impact the game in ways that may not be apparent at first, but could be worse than what we have now.
I've changed it in my games - allowing people to nominate a bunch of interesting items that they can access quickly. I've experienced no problems.
I've changed it in my games - allowing people to nominate a bunch of interesting items that they can access quickly. I've experienced no problems.
That is exactly what I mean! If the items are like strapped to your belt or in belt pouches or on a bandolier or something, it only makes sense you'd be able to retrieve them as part of a regular move just like a weapon, as opposed to like having to rummage through your bag for junk.
Our house rule has it depending on where the item is.
Out of your back pack = Move Action - Triggers AOO
Belt Pouch = Move Action - No AOO - can be done as part of movement like drawing a weapon
Belt Pouch; Blind pull = Free action but roll randomly to see what you pulled out (Non issue if the items in it are all the same)
If you are crafting wands, make them using an arrow as the base item.
As ammo, drawing them isn't even an action at all.
Solves the wand problem at least...
This is good.
Arrow wandSturdier than a normal arrow, they don't break till they use their last charge. It can only be used with touch attacks, but it goes off when it hits. They have no command words and can be used by any bowman. Burning hands and shocking grasp are the most common. They do normal arrow and spell damage. The spell does not multiply with a crit.
Cost is 50% more but they are popular with humanoid mercs. as their first shot, so you might only have to survive being hit by one.
Groups I'm in, martials pull out their missile weapons(usually crossbows), casters have their components ready, and guys with UMD have a wand in one hand before they enter unfriendly territory. I had a sorcerer who had the knife and licorice root out before going through a dungeon door. If someone shot at something, he cast haste.
The bows were all on pieces of silk rope, one foot from bow stock to belt so they let go of that and then were ready to draw. Haste helps with that.
Why? Someone at some point felt that pulling a sword out of a scabbard while moving to engage your enemy should be allowed, while unbuttoning your belt pouch, selecting the correct item, buttoning the pouch so the other items don't spill on the floor was too complicated (or too much of a boon to action economy) to do as quickly.
Note that there are several pieces of mundane gear that make things easier. Spring-loaded sheathes can release wands or scrolls, bandoliers allow alchemical weapons to be drawn as easily as a weapon, etc.
From a semi-realism point of view (I already know that many posters here don't even care about realism, but I do and some others do):
Swords and daggers are not "locked" into their sheathes. They might even fall out if you're upside down enough. What's the worst that happens? You're climbing a fence and when you go to swing your leg over, your dagger falls to the ground. Pretty sure it doesn't break, so it's just irritating.
Things like breakable potions (or oil flasks, bottles of wine, whatever) are not just set into a leather "sheath" on your belt. If they were, then when you swing your leg up over a fence and your glass bottle falls, it breaks. More than just irritating.
Those kinds of things are not just loosely in a bandoleer. They're either SUPER tight or held in with a closing flap (and probably a button to keep it closed). Sure, as much as I love the idea of the adventurer traipsing through a dungeon with a dozen glass vials exposed on his chest/bandoleer, grabbing them willy nilly whenever he wants one, but never having them smashed in combat, stolen, or simply fall out when he's walking/running/fighting, it's really not practical.
Furthermore, when I want to draw a sword, it's right there where I left it, at my side. It's the only one. One side, one sword, one simple motion to draw it. The same motion I have done thousands of times with the same exact result.
A bandoleer of potions is not that easy. There are lots of potions, side by side. Very easy to get the wrong one. Today that potion in the 3rd bandoleer slot is a potion of Cure Light Wounds, but last week that slot had a potion of Invisibility. I haven't practices drawing them thousands of times and I won't get he same results every time, and I might even draw the wrong one. All of which means I need to look and select and be careful that I get what I want.
Which clearly seems like more of an action than drawing that weapon - it certainly requires a lot more of my attention.
Several games, that I play in, houserule that bandoliers allow free draws combined with a move action. Just ask your GM to houserule it. If they don't want to allow it, then there's not much you can do.
Eh, metal potion vials
Not their standard container, but that's a good idea.
tied to your belt with a breakaway tether.
So you have only one, not two potions, just one so you always get the right one without thinking and/or focusing. And you've practiced it thousands of times (destroying thousands of breakaway tethers). Yeah, that works.
Not going anywhere, but a good solid yank and they're free to use.
I'd houserule this one potion in a metal container after the player spent his cash on those breakaway tethers.
It's pretty easy to come up with any number of configurations that would make non-weapon objects just as easy if not easier to access so arguing on any front of realism just doesn't make any sense,
I already said not everybody cares about realism, you're obviously in that camp, so my post wasn't for you.
especially given that alchemists can draw theirpotions...extracts for free.
I totally agree with this.
I despise that class as the most verisimilitude-destroying class they've ever created. By far. Seems fun and balanced, but ridiculously implausible to cartoonish proportions in a game that is otherwise not cartoonish. Every time a player says "I want to play an alchemist" I hear the Looney Tunes theme song playing in my head...
Let's recognize this for what it is, a rule put in place for balance reasons.
Never said it wasn't. I just said that it makes sense to me; it's reasonably plausible from a "realism" POV.
So alchemical items are considered weapons for the FAQ? Do we have guidance on what "weapon-like" is? I hate when they add new official terms that have no definition of what they actually mean.
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Something that has always bugged me is that a bandolier appears, RAW, to not actually make items any easier to retrieve.
This leather belt is worn over one shoulder and runs diagonally across the chest and back. It has small loops or pouches for holding eight objects the size of a flask or small dagger. You can use the "retrieve a stored item" action to take an item from a bandolier. You can wear up to two bandoliers at the same time (any more than this and they get in each other's way and restrict your movement).
The retrieve a stored item action takes a move action and provokes, the same as taking something from a backpack. Really, as written, it's just a flavor item to have the items somewhere other than packed away, and it doesn't provide any mechanical benefit. Now, most GMs I know don't run the item that way, but I've always avoided it in PFS for that reason. I just go with storing potions in a Handy Haversack instead.
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So alchemical items are considered weapons for the FAQ? Do we have guidance on what "weapon-like" is? I hate when they add new official terms that have no definition of what they actually mean.
The only things I'm aware of that are called out as weapon-like in the rules are wands, and it's been that way for a long time. The FAQ did not introduce the term weapon-like, but it did clarify that when they said you can draw a weapon-like object like a weapon, then they said you can draw a weapon as part of a move if you have +1 BAB, they did also mean that you can draw a weapon-like object as part of a move if you have +1 BAB.
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Adventurer's Sash looks... better. It's still frustrating that it doesn't call out an action type or whether or not it provokes. I think it's reasonable to say it doesn't provoke, as its within easy reach. I think what type of item it is would determine whether or not it can be drawn as part of a move. For PFS, it would likely be best to only count on that for actual weapons or wands. A potion is not called out as weapon-like anywhere. Stil, being able to justify drawing a potion without provoking by itself is worth the cost of the item. I'll have to pick one up for my Investigator and my Wand Wielder Magus.
An alchemist would only have the one combat useful metal test tube in his sash or whatever. Probably a mutagen. Multiple doses yes, but only one kind.
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What is the big difference between drawing a weapon as part of a regular move over retrieving an item similiarly? I know it doesn't say anywhere that you can, but I don't get why. Draw a dagger off your belt as part of a move, but not your wand loaded with an attack spell from a similiar location? And I mean, presuming the item was in easy reach like on a bandolier or strapped to your belt just like a weapon would be, why is it different? I get it if you have to rummage through your bag for it, but not if it's on a bandolier or on your belt like a weapon would be, so why can't we retrieve an item located similiarly to our weapons as part of a regular move?
Don't know about you, but I tend to stop moving when I rummage through a pack to find something. That potion of (pick spell) or scroll of (useful effect) you have in your backpack is somewhere in there, jumbled with everything else you have in there. Food, torches (you did buy torches, right?), potion bottles, rope, a grappling hook, flasks of acid and/or alchemist fire, your spare change of cloths (you do have more then one change of underwear, right?)...
So where exactly is that potion of cure moderate wounds? In addition, you need to find that bottle among the bottles of cure light wounds, mage armor, and various potions or oils you might be carrying. That's not something you can really be doing while moving. Especially in the middle of combat when you're ducking arrows and trying not to get eviscerated.
While it's just an announcing you're using item on your character sheet to you, to the character it's a more involved task to be doing in the middle of the fight.
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If you are crafting wands, make them using an arrow as the base item.
As ammo, drawing them isn't even an action at all.
Solves the wand problem at least...
Better hope you don't accidentally fire your wand by mistake then. If you're making wands out of arrows, that means you're carrying them with the rest of your arrows.
Bowman buys a quiver of arrows. Book wizard does too. Book wizard gives the arrows to Bowman. Puts wands and rods in quiver.
An arrow wand is crafted to be used as an arrow.
Better hope you don't accidentally fire your wand by mistake then. If you're making wands out of arrows, that means you're carrying them with the rest of your arrows.If you are crafting wands, make them using an arrow as the base item.
As ammo, drawing them isn't even an action at all.
Solves the wand problem at least...
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
If you start with an arrow as a "base item" and then enchant it into a wand, it is now a wand and follows the wand rules, including the rules to retrieve it.