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HectorVivis wrote:

Please quote the rules to clarify next time, or add a link to it.

Without proper reading, I'd go with what Rikkan say.

Infernal healing is from the healing subschool.

What the spell does doesn't matter, using gold adds one hitpoint when you cast the spell.
It's one point, immediately granted. The spell continues to function as written, without alteration.

Total necro, I still play 1.0 every two weeks, but I have the answer for you:

"At 1st level, a witch forms a close bond with a familiar, a creature that teaches her magic and helps to guide her along her path. Familiars also aid a witch by granting her skill bonuses, additional spells, and help with some types of magic. This functions like the wizard’s arcane bond class feature, except as noted in the Witch’s Familiar section.

A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells. Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar. A witch’s familiar begins play storing all of the 0-level witch spells plus three 1st level spells of the witch’s choice. The witch also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to her Intelligence modifier to store in her familiar. At each new witch level, she adds two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new witch level) to her familiar. A witch can also add additional spells to her familiar through a special ritual."

It clearly states how level one goes for Witches. It's right there.
When you 'begin play', that's when it applies.
If you can't find rules declaring that INT bonuses apply retroactively to over ride what is said here, FOR WITCHES, what is said here continues to apply.
Gaining INT later doesn't grant extra spells at 1st level, as you have already 'begun playing'. Sorry.
Unless a rule that applies TO WITCHES says otherwise. Don't compare Sorcerer or Wizard, wrong class.

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Driver 325 yards wrote:


Oh well, just kill him and cast a scroll of animate dead on him to turn him into a bloody skeleton Tiger. You won't ever have to worry about him dying again (can't die except by positive energy and has fast healing).

Now here is a question I don't know the answer to, but since you are the GM you would know the answer for your game.

If you awaken a Tiger, kill him, and cast animate dead on him to make him a bloody skeleton - is he an awakened bloody skeleton tiger?

No, he is a bloody skeleton tiger, made from the bones of a formerly awakened tiger.

phantom1592 wrote:
I broke both my feet once on a real life 'failed reflex save'.... I knew immediately I screwed up even before I landed and the pain hit.

But have you ever noticed yourself not noticing something?

"Boy, I sure didn't see that naked person run by just now"...

Azothath wrote:
whew... I thought there might be some more thread action on this...

No need for further discussion, I think you nailed it on the first try.

I've been doing something like this for years. :D

What would the cleric get as compensation for losing his ability to choose his spells?

I would expect 8+ skills per level, full BAB, heavy armor use and the ability to take Fighter feats.


D12 hit dice, full BAB, and barbarian rage ability...

You get the idea.

The only thing we handwave is rations, and only if someone can take ten to get enough on Survival to feed the group (we houserule that foraging DOESN'T slow you down for travel).

Encumbrance is a core rule, not an optional one. So is ammo.

It's way easier to track this stuff than it is to build a tenth level character, so not keeping track of it is cheating, IMO.

Three cards, that's pretty daring. I usually just pull one or two.

Hunter with ranged focus makes an awesome support character. Animal companion-I gravitate towards a dog, play a human, take the Huntmaster: Human feat (adds a level to the dog).

Not super tweaked, but a more powerful than average companion.

Oxylepy wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Wait until the GM goes to the bathroom, then look at his notes.


Be sure to feed your GM if this is your goal. I, personally, wouldn't leave a combat still active to go to the bathroom. But enough tacos will throw any semblance of holding it out the window

One of my players brings an entire case of Dr Pepper to every session. He thinks he's being clever, I think I make fake notes in case they do peek when I'm gone. :D

Maybe he's just being nice and I'm reading too much into it.

I was under the impression whips had reach 15...

Most of the ones we have made are 10+ feet. The fall (the single bit of leather on the end) can be pretty big (like a foot).

Whips are generally not as short as 6ft, I would say more like 8-12.

Best use for it: sell it and buy something else.

In the end, the correct answer is also the simplest.

It doesn't say anywhere that death ends permanent spell effects, so the effects persist.

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Our houserule is to have them advance as if they were animal companions... but at half regular progression.

It makes them tough enough to survive a hit or two, but not powerful enough to make the Druid jealous. :D

thegreenteagamer wrote:
I think the fragmented leveling in Unchained helps with that a bit. Makes it more gradual.

I keep hearing good things about that book, but my group refuses to add books to our current 'allowed' list...

Mythic, apparently, is allowed, but not Unchained. Go figure. ;)

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I know there's at least one person on the forums who actually makes whips. Help us, alexd1976! You're our only hope!

Hrm... it's my brother that does it actually, I just assist.

Getting kangaroo leather in Canada is NOT easy.

Depends on the whip, but generally about one to one-and-a-half inches at the base (handle), then tapers off to the fall.

I would just say 5hp to sunder a whip and be done with it.

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"Tell me why the designers chose to make it this way, but without talking about designers"...


Drahliana's response sounds legit?

If you rule that death ends permanent spells, then it has to end all of them...

Curses, petrification, and so forth. :D

Fractured Elf wrote:
Thank you, Pizza Lord, for a directly related to the previous comment response. The consensus I'm getting, from you and Bondoid, is that the effect is reversible, since nothing in the Deck's or Card's description explicitly says it is not. That was my interpretation as well, but I had doubts (probably derived from previous edition interpretations) because - artifact. So it looks like a trip to a temple is in order for my character, and probably a quest is in order for the party.

You got it, it's reversible.

When in doubt, do what it says. Some people add extra effects to things (because-artifact), but they really shouldn't.

For the record, I love finding those decks, and always always try them, of course, our group usually uses hero points or some variation that allows us to have an 'undo' on stuff like this, so, it usually turns out very well. :D

Sure, just ask your GM how.

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to, but expect it to cost roughly as much as (+1 fullplate-the cost of +1 half-plate).

It's not gonna save you money overall.

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The entire concept of levels... I mean, I play with it, and I love the system (started with D+D, switched to Pathfinder and NEVER intend to go back!), but arbitrarily gaining more 'meat points' and 'spell levels' just seems weird.

I started roleplaying with a skill-based system (Interlock, by Talsorian Games, the Cyberpunk setting) and to this day still think it is the standard to which all other games should be compared.

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Wait until the GM goes to the bathroom, then look at his notes.


We play it like this:

Leaving a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity (unless some other condition or effect says otherwise).

Whether walking, flying, awake, asleep or petrified, falling provokes.

We haven't found anything to contradict this, so that's how we play it.

Yes, Reverse Gravity gets deadlier.

That's life. It's a high level spell, it's supposed to hurt.

Sounds great, I've always hated having my party just pop into the bad guys castle, alpha strike him, then pop back home in time for lunch...

You don't have a problem, you have an opportunity. Random encounters can be a thing again!

Wind Walk is pretty awesome for travel, and opens them up to the possibility of running into a lot of aerial opponents they might not normally encounter!

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They chose to make a group with no cleric, honor their choice.

My group decided to try the same thing, just to see if we could do it...

It altered the flow of the game significantly until we found ways (in character) to compensate. Some of us multi-classed, most of us started changing our outlook on magic items (healing items become more common).

Ran the campaign until level 15ish with no dedicated healer, had a blast.

If it's only you thinking they 'need' a cleric, then there is no issue with the party.

Relax. Run the game the way you want, but try not to force choices onto your players.

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Played a fighter who acted like a Paladin of Cayden Cailen (our GM allowed Paladins of any good deity)...

He would start every day with a mug of ale and a hearty drinking song, encouraging others to join in.

After that, he would read selected passages from his holy book that would shed insight on the lessons learned in the day just passed...

Due to a cooperative GM (and a fairly lucky find of a stash of healing potions that he slipped into the ale keg), it took the party several levels to realize he wasn't even a Paladin...

Good times.

Wizard-"I'm hurt, can you heal me?"
Me-"Of course, drink this and let Cayden's warmth remove your aches and pains..."

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I like Zedorlands suggestion, but seriously... the GM needs to man up.

Talk to him.

You can't have a 'hands off' approach to GMing, the job he has is to moderate the damn game!

Talk to your friends, and ask them why the new people are being included in the first place.

Also, consider just bailing, it may drive your point home, but at the very least it will save you the frustration of having to game with juvenile idiots.

STR 12, strong enough to be the 'slightly above average guy who helps you move'

DEX 11 long-time gamer, former tree climber. Never trip or fall randomly unless super drunk.

CON 14 basically don't sleep, can drink like an immortal and only get 'sick' to take days off work to play video games.

INT 14 yup, it might be higher, but I don't care. I do work in the I.T. field, and have attended multiple post-secondary educational facilities (even graduated one of them!)

WIS 10 nothing special here...

CHA 14 I'm a sleazy, convincing, adorable guy. :D Ask anyone!

Like most others on here, I would possibly argue my INT is higher, but I feel like that just gets people going... like, confrontational... *shrugs*

If I picked a class for myself, I would WANT to be a Cleric... but would likely wind up a Bard...

Imbicatus wrote:
M1k31 wrote:

Probably cold, acid, or fire immunity and weak to electricity, because unless it's a mecha campaign it seems unlikely electricity would be used as often.

as for why any one of the immunities, fire seems most common, but I'd think the others are more devastating as potential environmental hazards.

Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt, Call Lightning, Chain Lightning. If you are ever fighting a Magus, Wizard, or Druid, it could hurt, no mecha needed. Not to mention Blue Dragons, Chimera, and so on.

Don't forget natural lightning. That can hurt. ;)

Matthew Downie wrote:
Claxon wrote:
This makes me want to say that for my home games players will get an extra skill point per level that they can assign to any craft of proffession skill.

I've tried that. It's a good house rule.

Profession: Shepherd could be pretty useful. Drive a herd of sheep ahead of you as you travel. When the Dire Crocodile attacks, it will swallow one of them instead of you.

I use pigherders more, I find it funnier. The idea of a filthy pig farmer becoming a mighty _whatever class he becomes_.


Also, when you drive a herd of pigs into a red dragons den, you get bacon.

My group uses hidden Perception rolls (made by GM)-reason: players have stated bluntly that they will use any and all information presented to them, including roll results.

No one thinks the GM rolling is unfair, due to the above statement. I prevent metagaming by removing it as an option.

I also change things like what monsters look like, or what they are immune to, so that the people who invested skill points to be able to identify weaknesses get to do so (on a successful roll), while the metagaming INT 3 barbarian who assumes trolls are hurt by fire (without having any skills to help him know this) don't get to metagame anymore.

We actually have Rogues in our games because of this (for the skillpoints). They are basically worshipped.

Perception isn't a physical skill with obvious results, why would the characters know they 'rolled poorly'?

They either spot the thing, or they don't. That is the information they are given.

Other things that aren't rolled by the players: disease resistance (they will find out if they are sick when the symptoms show up), slow acting poisons and so on.

Telling a player to roll dice will usually immediately result in readied actions and unusual behaviour (such as casting spells to buff)-at least in my current group. I like having them roll perception checks in town to notice odd colored cats, or a new bakery offering tasty cinnamon buns... They are starting to realize what metagaming is, and how it can be detrimental to their characters (having spent multiple rounds casting buff spells, someone eventually rolled high enough to notice the nicely made shoes on a local bum... it became a clue to solving an earlier murder, but they basically wasted about a third of their spells because of it).

Drowning it or suffocating it both work.

I used half-dragon (red) moss trolls in my game as 'shock troops'. Pretty easy to counter once you know how.

Death effects still work too.


With bold characters and cell borders, you can make a half-decent character sheet, and customize it all you like.

You can even import images into it, so you can have a character portrait. :D

Fernn wrote:

Easy solution:

Be a Draconic sorceror.

Eventually get high Charisma and Form of Dragon.

Seduce a strapping young Hydra to be your mate.

Live out your years with hydra.

Eventually you will bear a son.

Magic jar your son.

You are now a hydra.

When you become decapitated, two more heads sprout up.


OMG this is pure gold, I love this.

Zwordsman wrote:

I would allow this. just for the visual of PUNCHING SO HARD YOU HIT WITH AIR PRESSURE!

Classic and awesome.


From a game balance perspective, who cares... sure, the rules don't really allow it per se, but I would likely allow just for the awesome factor.

Ooooor... you could rule that the body DOES in fact survive because of this phantom head...

Of course, nothing in that power talks about duplicating memories or abilities, so you would have a perfectly functional, brand new, empty brain controlling the body.


Unless you can find rules to support otherwise, of course.

Slithery D wrote:

I think it's clear that it works. It can replace multiple body parts, the complexity stuff covers the most complex thing they could imagine you casting it to replace. But they didn't think about the head because they don't account for niche things like contingency in regular spell descriptions.

The already dead argument holds no water. You're dead when you're decapitated because you have no head. This instantly gives you a head.

Finally, this is a one class, one time niche defense that foregoes a regular contingency and uses up a spell known that isn't otherwise very useful on a spontaneous caster. It's hardly OP.

1-Vorpal effect occurs, rendering you dead per written rules

2-New head appears on dead corpse
3-Dead corpse falls over, being dead

No, it doesn't work.

Hunter class? Still gotta wait till level 7 though...

Or just ask your GM if you can buy a dire wolf... ride it till level 7...

Leadership... (at level 7)

Actually, to be fair, as established before, being dead doesn't actually prevent you from acting, so yes, you could benefit from them.

Most of us have a houserule about being dead though. No actions allowed, you aren't aware of anything etc etc etc.

The Sword wrote:

As has already been discussed the permanent duration is as follows...

"Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does."

If the subject dies, then the following spells cease to have an effect effect, or are you suggesting that any of these can function when the receipiet is dead?

Arcane sight,Comprehend languages, Darkvision, Detect magic, Read magic, See invisibilty, Tongues, Magic fang, Magic fang greater, Resistance, Telepathic bond?

You may argue that these effects are suspended by death and re-start again when a corpse regains its thought/sight/attacks/hearing but that would be a house rule - though a reasonable one in my opinion.

The exception is enlarge person and reduce person. The effect of these spells does not end at death, therefore by the logic above they remain permanent.

The spells continue to function just fine. The target (the now dead person) just can't USE them.

Nothing wrong with the spells.

If you picked up that corpse and slammed his open mouth onto something, the calculated bite damage should benefit from Magic Fang.

Saving throws made by that dead person would be affected by Resistance.

Just because you can't USE a spell doesn't mean it stops working.

Being paralyzed negates the utility of Expeditious Retreat, it does NOT dispel it.

wraithstrike wrote:

Alex sometimes the template is not "handed out". It happens because the NPC does it due to you dying in case of a vampire. Now the NPC(GM) could let you just die, and not be a vampire.

I think killing an undead creature, and then using resurrection would bring you back as a normal person.

Basically my point is that if a PC wants to 'keep' the template, they have to account for the levels... so being turned into a Vampire, they have two choices: Get rezzed (removing the template), or keep it and work off the levels it costs to have it.

We tend to enforce group alignments (as in, no good, or no evil) so if one person is a vampire, it isn't a huge deal because there will likely be a Lich or necromancer as well... thematically, it works.

Groups with mixed alignments (Like a Paladin adventuring with an Anti-Paladin) cause too much friction, so we just never make those.

I don't see what the problem is... just keep your distance from people.

Even in town, in a crowded bar... people will only be affected for a short while.

It guarantees you will have a table to yourself (unless your adventuring companions choose to ignore the role-playing aspects of your stink, and sit with you).

How NPCs react to this will vary, but by no means is this character unplayable! Just gross.

thejeff wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

GM decides to allow you a template.

GM takes your character away.

Punch GM in the junk and quit game.

In our games, templates are FINE, but they are accounted for in the build (i.e. a half-dragon will be two levels lower than a non-templated basic race).

As for 'evil' templates like Vampire etc... if it's an evil game, who cares?

Literally all templates are controlled/handed out by the GM (yes, even the Lich), so if your GM lets you have it and THEN takes your character away, he isn't doing his job properly.

Out of curiosity, how do you handle templates acquired during play as far as levels go? Do you lose levels when you get the template? Stall at the same level until you're the proper number of levels behind?

Depends on how it is acquired, as well as what it is...

Lycanthropy can be cured, so if they choose to keep it, they wind up paying for the levels (if infected, instead of natural). We houserule that if they keep it long enough to pay off the levels, they now count as 'natural' instead of 'afflicted'.

Templates that can be deliberately sought out/added like Vampire or Lich are generally 'saved up for' and applied when they have enough levels/have accomplished the required goals in game. Note that in Pathfinder, you can add Half-Dragon AFTER character creation (it isn't necessarily an option that takes place at birth!)

RARELY do we apply templates DURING a game. 99% of the time the characters are built with them.

Saw thread title, immediately imagined a Weasel being used like a bayonet (a rifle 'attachement').

Now envisioning a Weasel on a stick.

Cevah wrote:

Both the Paladin and the Alchemist have Death Ward and Restoration.

Get some First-Aid Gloves for the Breath of Life effect.

Leadership can net a Cleric/Oracle/Witch with the needed spells also.

The skill unlock for the Heal skill can net heavy duty temp hit points.

An item with 1/day high level Summon Monster can also net a lot of status removal and healing effects.


As a frequent GM, this situation is one where I would not only allow, but encourage Leadership. Basic cleric build (not optimized for buffing/debuffing, but healing would be fine)-totally cool, keeps the flow of the game going.

GM decides to allow you a template.
GM takes your character away.

Punch GM in the junk and quit game.

In our games, templates are FINE, but they are accounted for in the build (i.e. a half-dragon will be two levels lower than a non-templated basic race).

As for 'evil' templates like Vampire etc... if it's an evil game, who cares?

Literally all templates are controlled/handed out by the GM (yes, even the Lich), so if your GM lets you have it and THEN takes your character away, he isn't doing his job properly.

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They are temporary HIT POINTS, not temporary points that act as if they are hitpoints but called something else.

The name says it all.

Hit points count as hit points...

Temporary is just a duration, so count them.

lemeres wrote:
graystone wrote:
Aizaia wrote:
He wanted to make a wagon fall over on the creatures that was behind it.
Unlikely even using the Tome and Blood option. AT best, you might be able to use it to use disable device to mess up a vital part. Slow it down maybe, but get it to fall over? No chance.

Hell, I feel like I'd put that on like a.... DC 40 or 50 strength check or above if the barbarian just decided to flip the thing.

Your first level cantrip shouldn't surpass a DC 40 stat check. Particularly the flavor spell design to be the grab bag of every neat little party trick that you would never burn a spell for specifically.

When it makes tools, they are deliberately made useless. Even making a car jack wouldn't work. This spell is more defined by being near useless compared to other options.

Those DCs seem a bit high...

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So are people saying that summoned creatures affect your leadership score?

A level 7 caster can have a magical Mount spell active for more than half the day, does this lower his Leadership score by 2 points?

Cause it kinda sounds like people are saying it does...

Summoners were written after Leadership was written, clarifications could have been spelled out.

They weren't, because Summoners Eidolons don't affect Leadership.

If you want to make a houserule that contradicts published rules, that is your right (if you are GM), but in this thread, discussing rules...

Eidolons don't affect Leadership.

the solution is easy here folks...

A more powerful necromancer/cleric catches wind of this prodigy who is cranking out powerful minions despite their low level...

Powerful NPC shows up and simply TAKES them.


Also, GM, if you don't like it, simply inform the player that things must change. Run your game the way you want it.

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