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KingOfAnything wrote:
I don't think it applies to permanent effects. The "single spell or effect it is suffering" terminology implies one with a duration that can be shortened.

Hmm... Is that true by RAW? If so, it does alleviate many of my more serious concerns.

If not true by RAW, seems a good balanced way to "nerf" it anyway for my own use.

Oxylepy wrote:
It's intended to be an auto-success to end a single effect.

With respect, if you think a power useable at 1st level is supposed to be an "auto-success" to end almost any effect (I say almost, because their are exceptions as pointed out), then either:

1) You are honestly mistaken about the intent.

2) The writer of the ability has absolutely zero concept of mechanical balance.

Every other mechanism that I'm able to think of that ends negative status effects is either:

* Targeted at a specific type of effect

* Ends only effects that are temporary anyway

* Requires a successful roll, which you only get one of.

* Very costly in terms of material resources.

The lycanthropy example alone shows how absurd this is. One more for my GM nerf into reasonableness list.

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Liberty’s Blessing (Sp): You touch a willing creature as a standard action, granting it a boon. A creature with this boon can, as a swift action, make a saving throw against a single spell or effect it is suffering from that grants a save. The DC of the saving throw is equal to the original DC of the spell or effect. If the saving throw is successful, the effect ends. This boon lasts for 1 minute or until successfully used to remove a spell or effect, whichever duration is shorter. You can use this ability for a number of times equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

From Liberation [Freedom] domain/subdomain.

I read through a few threads on this, but none with the question I want to ask.

Please note the bolded sentence. As written, this ability does not grant one re-roll; it grants as many re-rolls as you can fit into a minute, or until you succeed. So, as many as 10 re-rolls against a particularly bad affliction/effect that might normally only allow one save. And that's for each use of the ability. So, up to 10x(3+WIS) rerolls per day.

Do you think this is RAI? Hoping not, but would like to hear other opinions.

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One method I like is to give the name and type (animal, outsider, humanoid, etc.) with the baseline successful check, along with all useful information about that type. Granted, just knowing what the type is is not always helpful, but it can be useful in distinguishing between a native aberration, say, and an outsider that can be banished. I agree with DM_Blake that giving ALL subtypes and information about them on just the baseline roll is way too much. If the type and name tells them absolutely nothing useful at all, I might throw another tidbit in there.

For each additional 5 over the DC they can ask questions. Valid questions are pretty broad for me, though. Here are some examples:

* What are its subtypes, and the properties from subtypes? [If they ask this, I will give them ALL subtypes, and select ONE subtype that is most useful for them to know the details of, such as 'devil' for example, rather than 'evil'. For that subtype they will learn the properties shared by all devils. In almost all cases there is only one "useful" subtype.]

* What special attacks does it have? [If they select this, I will tell them all special attacks if it has only a few, or a selection of the most significant ones if it has a lot.]

* What spells or SLAs does it have? [As above]

* What are its defenses like against damage? [This will give them elemental resistances, as well a general sense of its armor class breakdown]

* What are its defenses like against magical effects? [This will give them a sense of its saves, and immunities to specific types of magic]

* What is its most dangerous quality? [Because this is such a targeted and useful piece of information, I only give them one thing, but I select it to be the one thing that is most threatening to them]

* How does it move? [This will get them all move speeds, as well as any teleportation or movement abilities]

Other questions are possible as well, and note that some of the above overlap in their information. For example, asking about the devil subtype and its defenses against damage will both give you some information about elemental resistances.

Further, and this is my favorite, if they beat the DC by a full 20, which is not easy, but I've seen it done, then they get to just flat-out read the monster's entry. They know everything about it. Players really like this, and I like it as a special reward for someone who really invests in knowledge (and you have to to ever beat the DC by 20).

Roleplaying wise, I like to ask my players how they know something after I give them the info. So, the Fighter [Lore Warden] might learn something about a troll, and I'll ask how he knows. A good roleplayer might say: "Oh, right; I remember hearing about that from one of my sergeants back at the academy. He lost half a hand to one.", for example.

I should also add that I assume players carry-over information shared between monsters. Like, once you show that you know the properties of devils, then you forever-after remember the properties of devils. So, if you encounter another devil, as long as you can determine it *is* a devil, then you automatically know devil properties for it.

Nature Shaman wrote:
Stormwalker (Su): The shaman can move through non-magical fog, rain, mist, snow, and other environmental effects without penalty (see Weather). She is never slowed by such effects, and she doesn't need to attempt Acrobatics skill checks to move across such surfaces. She can also move through magical environmental effects that she created. At 10th level, the shaman can see twice as far as normal through environmental effects, whether or not they are magical in nature.

As the title says, does this remove penalties from flying through non-magical wind? I would think RAW, yes, because you've moving through an environmental effect (wind) which would normally have penalties. However, not sure about the RAI, or if I'm reading too much into it.

So... immunity to negative energy applies if, and only if, the term "negative energy" is used.

Both would be immune to Enervation.

Only Life Oracle would be immune to vampire energy drain.

Only Life Shaman would be immune to, say, a harm spell.

Sound about right?

Huh; wonder why they changed that one tiny thing from the Oracle to the Shaman.

So, immunity to negative energy is JUST a hit point damage issue, to be

What about immunity to energy drain? I think that's the same as immunity to negative levels?

I noticed this contrast between the capstone for the Life Oracle and the Life Shaman:

Life Shaman wrote:
Upon reaching 20th level... immunity to bleed, death attacks, and negative energy, as well as to the exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, and sickened conditions. Ability damage and drain cannot reduce her to below 1 in any ability score. She automatically succeeds at saving throws against massive damage. When she is reduced to below 0 hit points, she doesn't die until her negative hit point total exceeds double her Constitution score.
Life Oracle wrote:
Upon reaching 20th level... immune to bleed, death attacks, exhaustion, fatigue, nausea effects, negative levels, and sickened effects. Ability damage and drain cannot reduce you below 1 in any ability score. You automatically make saving throws against massive damage. When you are below 0 hit points, you do not die until your negative total is in excess of twice your Constitution score.

The only difference, so far as a I can see, is that one grants immunity to "negative energy", and the other to "negative levels". Does the former encompass the latter? I presume immunity to negative energy protects against negative energy hit point damage, whereas immunity to negative levels does not. Any other key differences?

BretI wrote:
Valet and Mascot familiar archetypes also get Perform as a class skill.

Ah; excellent point!

BretI wrote:
I'm not certain it it should be the Bard's DC or two different DCs based on who is doing it. It would be pretty weak if based on the familiar.

Yeah, I honestly think the RAI is that the familiar just "copies" the strength of your bardic performance at the base level, using your charisma and bard level; it's really channeling your performance for you, rather than getting its own bardic performance ability. I would argue that the reason that Lingering Performance doesn't apply to the familiar, as was establish in the link cavernshark provided, is that the feat specifically refers to actions that you take:

Lingering Performance wrote:
The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

Thus, Lingering Performance doesn't change the base bardic performance ability, per se, it just maintains the benefits granted by it.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Upon reaching 20th level, the shaman becomes the spirit of heaven. She receives a bonus on all saving throws equal to her Wisdom modifier. ...

Yes, I realize, 20th level ability, who really cares. BUT, I'm curious. Since it's been ruled that ability modifiers are their own type, which cannot be stacked, does this mean that this ability really only adds WIS to reflex and fortitude saves? I would venture that's not RAI, but who am I to say.

Ok, I'm in agreement, thanks.

Of course, this conclusion means the Lyrakien Azata is the *only* correct choice for this Bard, once they hit level 7. As far as I know, she's the only Improved Familiar that has Perform as a class skill (important for using her master's Versatile Performance AND for the Perform checks that come with some Bardic music), and the one with the highest charisma. Besides being awesome on top of that.

At least she is properly thematic for the role; given that she actively plays music in her description, you're that much more likely to be able to convince a GM to switch out her useless "Agile Maneuvers" feat for "Lingering Performance".

SlimGauge wrote:
Doesn't encumbrance become an issue quite quickly, because the splash weapons weight isn't reduced for size ?

8 pounds means she can have a couple on her at a time, in addition to whatever wand or two you give her. Can grab more from your haversack between combats, etc.

Jeraa wrote:
Size has no effect on range.

Yes, I realize. Hence the use of the word should. As in, a 1.5 foot tall fairy should not be able to throw things as far as a 7 foot tall Barbarian.

the David wrote:
A Lyrakien has a strength of 5 and has a light load of up to 8 pounds. She could fly over the heads of your enemies and drop objects of up to 8 pounds.

Also true; not sure how that works with splash weapons. Does dropping it straight down work? Another case where it should, but I don't know if it does.

So, Lyrakien azata, say. She is tiny. Is there anything at all, rules wise, that prevents her from throwing splash weapons, presumably comically huge compared to herself, just as effectively as her master can (perhaps more so, given her high dexterity)?

I mean, there should be, given her size. But is there? I'm not aware of any sizing rules for splash weapons.

Hmm... so, I am assuming that the familiar does at least get the improvements in the performances as the Bard levels (that is, the bumps to inspire courage, for example), because otherwise the familiar is pretty much useless.

Are you implying that the familiar doesn't even use its master's bard level when determining DCs? The charisma bonus makes sense, but it seems weird to say it uses its own bard level for the DCs when it doesn't have one. If that's the case, the DCs for the familiar are all 10 + 1/2(0) + CHA, so pretty worthless. Doesn't make the familiar worthless, of course, as it can still use the non-offensive powers perfectly fine, like the ever-important inspire courage.

The issue is further complicated by the later power, Harmonizing Familiar:

At 8th level, the duettist and his familiar have learned how to perform together in harmony. When a duettist and his familiar perform the same bardic performance simultaneously, its effects are enhanced. If the performance has a DC, the DC increases by 2. If the performance provides a competence bonus, the competence bonus increases by 1. Because both the duettist and the familiar are performing, each round performed consumes 3 rounds of bardic performance.

The wording of which seems to imply there is only a single DC between them. I do honestly think that the RAI is that the familiar uses the master's DCs, but it's hard to tell the RAW.

As it stands, I'm leaning towards "uses master's level, but own charisma score" as a compromise. Of course... who's to say that your charisma score is higher, necessarily... Hello, Lyrakien.

Interested in further input, of course.

Deductionist is thematically out, and the ninja trick is way OP.

BUT, the Medic archetype is *perfect*. Keeping the NPC low mid level, so the 3rd level drop is exactly what I'm looking for.

Thank you!

Looking to make a healer NPC in a very low-magic setting. They'llhave skill unlock for Heal (which is the only way to make non-magic healing anything viable), and the "Battlefield Surgeon" trait which allows two uses of Treat Deadly Wounds on a given character per day.

My question is whether anyone is aware of any method to make the use time for Treat Deadly Wounds (1 hour) faster. If not, I may just want it to give faster time for an increased DC.


Relevant section

At 4th level, a duettist's familiar learns how to create supernatural effects with its performances, just like its master. The familiar can use any of its master's bardic performances, but only the familiar or the duettist can have a performance active at any given time, not both. If one is performing and the other starts a performance, the previous performance immediately ends. Each round that the familiar performs consumes 2 rounds of the duettist's bardic performance.

So, it has to be the case that the familiar is using your bard level for the performances, but does it use your charisma bonus, or its bonus, for determining the DCs of the bardic music abilities? What about when a bardic performance calls for a Perform check?

N N 959 wrote:
PRD wrote:

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.

Emphasis mine.

Ah, good catch. I was apparently thinking of the Quick Draw feat, which specifies it only works for weapons, not wands. Perhaps the OP was as well; dunno.

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Because once combat starts, Pathfinder is a tactical combat game, not a role-playing game. So the rules of combat are based on an attempt to achieve balance, not internal consistency or "realism".

Awesome! A+ informative answer.


I was looking through some Bard archetypes (e.g. Flame Dancer) and noticed that some add spells to your spells known, but do not specify that they are added to the Bard spell list.

Does this mean, for example, that you would need to UMD to use a wand of that spell, even if you know it?

Fernn wrote:

You wish to knitpick the wording from a trait for a nice little extra affect. An effect that is replicated through a feat that has limitations.

Just go up to your GM and say

"Hey GM, Here is a trait that allows me to stack two bonus/penalties. Can I take it? Otherwise I would have to spend a feat that does the same thing, except I cant stack the bonuses/penalties"

I mean they literally gave an example in the trait page:

"For example, if you demoralize a foe with an Intimidate check and beat the DC by 5, the victim is shaken for 3 rounds instead of the usual 2 rounds."

The ability in question would have to have a designated amount of duration. Then if the duratation is at least 2, it adds 1 more.

I mean, I would go up to the GM and ask that, but talking into a mirror is always a bit awkward, in my experience.

Mainly I'm always interested in looking into niche NPCs.

That being said, you make a good point about the feat limiting the character after the fact. Ultimately, I would probably let the trait just act like a weaker version of Lingering Performance: yes, the shaken trait lasts for an extra round, but it ends if you start a different performance.

-Grijm- wrote:
Looks like something that can be argued both ways, since Dirge of Doom is an effect that causes the shaken effect only 1 round at a time, but you are right, it isn't broken anyway.

Pretty much my thoughts.

Fourshadow wrote:
Hmm...that is intriguing and I would have to say that it appears so and I would rule it as such.

Yeah, I'd likely rule that way as a GM, only because... why not, really? It's not like it's anything approaching OP.

Fernn wrote:

I respect the reasoning behind your stance, though what you say about Lingering Performance only applies if the character actually has the Lingering Performance feat. If they do not, there is nothing (to my awareness) that says performance bonuses cannot theoretically overlap. I agree that if they had the Lingering Performance feat, they could not overlap. Basically this would be an alternate to Lingering Performance, not something to combine with it.

Dirge of Doom bardic performance makes enemies shaken, Memorable trait says:

When you modify attitude with Diplomacy or Intimidate, it lasts 50% longer. Whenever you create a fear or mind-affecting effect that lasts at least 2 rounds, it lasts an additional round.

So, if a Bard with the Memorable trait played Dirge of Doom for two rounds and then stopped, would the enemies continue being shaken for one round afterward? This is not even considering the Lingering Performance feat, mind you.

If so, would he be able to start another type of performance immediately, and have the two overlap (if only for a single round)?

This isn't anything broken, more like a quirky edge case, but if this works, it makes the Memorable trait slightly more worth considering for a Bard.

shadowkras wrote:

Expanded Portfolio (Su)

At 5th level, the exalted further increases her already impressive knowledge of her chosen deity's faith and is rewarded with increased powers in one of the spheres over which her deity holds sway. The exalted chooses a domain of her chosen deity to which she gains access, using her exalted level as her effective cleric level.

The exalted can also can use each of the chosen domain's spells once per day as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to her exalted level. The exalted can use each spell-like ability only if she is able to cast divine spells of that level. If the exalted has any domain spell slots, she is also able to cast the chosen domain's spells in those slots as normal.

The prestige class has only 10 levels, wouldnt this limit your spells from 1st to 5th circle (1, 3, 5, 7 and 9)?

Nah; the caster level is based on your Exalted level (so, the limitation of ten years per caster level for true resurrection would use your exalted level), BUT whether or not you can use the SLA is based on whether you are able to "cast divine spells of that level".

The part you bolded, I think, pretty clearly refers to the powers granted by the domain itself.

So, "Expanded Portfolio" in the Exalted prestige class grants the spells of a domain as a SLA each useable 1/day (provided you are of sufficient level to cast them). So, if one takes the Healing [Resurrection] domain, then you can (assuming you are casting level 9/13/17) pop off a Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection 1/day each, with no material component.

Is that correct?

Yeah, I think you're probably right. Ah, well. :(

Thanks for the input.

Awesome! Here's the new build

Dwarf (Middle Aged)
Monk (Ki Mystic, Sensei, Contemplative, Qinggong) 4 / Cleric (Separatist) 1

Uran, a dwarven devotee of Irori, travels Golarian ceaselessly seeking knowledge of all things, and to know the walks of all lives, which he believes will be his path to enlightenment.

General Overview: The theme is a guy who’s done everything. Not in the epic slain every monster sense, but he’s held every job in the world, and knows just about everything about it. Knowledge checks are a solid +16 in combat, +17 out of it (more with the use of ki) made very good by the 9/day ability to re-do a knowledge check with a +6 insight bonus. Profession checks are all doable untrained, and have a +8 base, +2 if Any-Tool can be used, +4 insight with the use of a ki, and a +1 competence bonus due to ‘Guidance, to +15 maximum. Craft skills are a +4 base, with a +2 trait bonus that can be applied to one Craft per day, +4 insight bonus with one ki, +1 competence, +2 for Any-Tool (for most checks) to a +13 maximum. Numerous other skills as well.

He’s definitely not optimized for combat, but not completely useless in it either, with attacks based on Wisdom, and the Advice ability to give a small boost to a group. Not intended as a PC build, though. Low-level Cleric spells add amazing utility for a traveler, and he leaves many slots open.

The separatist with Travel domain (in addition to Knowledge) is both thematically appropriate, and mechanically important, as it gets him a +10 speed boost; crucial since he gave up monk fast movement. The agile feet domain power is nice, too.

*Guilty* I did end up making him a 25-pt build, because he's a monk, and I love him so.

Neat! Will have to add something on that. Initial thoughts:

Barbarian would be mechanically great due to rage and Uncanny Dodge (due to ability to remove fatigue with lay on hands, which the guide doesn't mention), but thematically horrendous. But, it will be mentioned.

Monk is actually no good, since you're dumping wisdom for the Paladin of Irori. Too MAD. Maybe something to consider if you were going for a dex-build anyway, but that's definitely not optimal.

Probably some good things you could come up with for sorcerer, but I haven't hyper-analyzed them all.

Wizard is nice; definitely some good stuff there.

Oracle might be good, though the 7th level ability is super-lame.

Specifically, the Sensei archetype of monk can potentially grant allies Diamond Body (immunity to poison) for 1 round. There are two ways I can think of this working:

Option 1 (most powerful): The Diamond Body instantly neutralizes any poisons in the system of the character, and provides them with protection from any further poisoning for that round. Useful, though since you can't do that before level 10, definitely nothing gamebreaking.

Option 2: The Diamond Body protects from the effects of poison for that one round, and prevents further poisons from taking effect during that round, but any poisons already in the bloodstream continue on the following round.

Thoughts? Previous rulings?

That does seem to be the most consistent RAW interpretation to me, too. However, I'm biased because I want it to work that way.

But, I agree with you in that the first sentence is not voided by later statements.

Is it just due to the similarity with the Lay on Hands that you say so?

The problem with that interpretation is that, by RAW, you won't actually be able to use the ki. One swift action to *get* the ki, and you lose it before you can use it on your next turn with another swift action.

Honestly, I think the RAI might be neither of the above; after staring at it for a long time, I would venture the *intent* is that you can get *and use* the bonus ki as a swift action, but it takes two uses to do so. That's definitely not a RAW reading, unfortunately.

Goddity wrote:

1.) Yes, if you can touch yourself.

2.) I don't see why not, as long as not more than a minute passes.

Thanks! I'm in agreement.

"Recall (Su): With a touch, you can cause a creature to recall some bit of forgotten lore or information. The creature can retry any Knowledge skill check it has made within the past minute, gaining a insight bonus on the check equal to your Wisdom modifier. You can use this ability a number times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier."

1st, can this be used on yourself? I think the answer is yes.

2nd, which just occurred to me, can you keep using this on the same check? RAW, it seems it would work (obviously the insight bonuses would not keep stacking). RAI, not sure.

Relevant text:

At 1st level, as a standard action, a Contemplative can touch a creature to grant it a temporary ki point until the beginning of the Contemplative's next turn. ... The Contemplative can target himself with this ability as a swift action, but doing so costs 2 uses of the ability.

Now, normally touch powers that are standard actions can be used on yourself (as a standard action) unless the ability says otherwise. SO, there are two ways to read this power, and I have no idea which is correct.

Option 1:

At 1st level, as a standard action, a Contemplative can touch a creature to grant it a temporary ki point until the beginning of the Contemplative's next turn. ... The Contemplative can target himself with this ability as a swift action, but doing so costs 2 uses of the ability.

For option 1, the significant part is the fact that it is a swift action. Under this interpretation, you could target yourself as a standard action (as is normal for touch powers), but would have to spend 2 ki if you wanted to spend only a swift action doing so (say, if you wanted to use that ki for a SLA).

Option 2:

At 1st level, as a standard action, a Contemplative can touch a creature to grant it a temporary ki point until the beginning of the Contemplative's next turn. ... The Contemplative can target himself with this ability as a swift action, but doing so costs 2 uses of the ability.

For option 2, the significant part is that it targets you. Under this interpretation, spending 2 ki and taking a swift action is the *only* way the ability can be used on yourself.

I honestly think both can be read as RAW, but am looking for input. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

So, the 1st level power from the Knowledge [Memory] domain:

Recall (Su): With a touch, you can cause a creature to recall some bit of forgotten lore or information. The creature can retry any Knowledge skill check it has made within the past minute, gaining a insight bonus on the check equal to your Wisdom modifier. You can use this ability a number times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

You can use that on yourself, yes? If so, I think that's going to be the way to go. Monk 4 / Cleric 1. Fits the theme well. Plus throwing around the 0th level "Guidance" for that extra +1 competence bonus on every check.

Definitely using the bardic knowledge idea, so thanks for that.

Fantastic idea! I wasn't familiar with those rules, but after looking at it that is a much better option than Dilettante for that feat.

Oh! That makes it worth a look, now. Thanks!

avr wrote:
A Lore shaman can pick up the Benefit of Wisdom hex at level 1 if they're so inclined.

I did not know of this! Were that it were true, but looking at it closely it seems a 2 level dip would be needed. Which, I may still do. Though, honestly I won't be able to drop intelligence that much without losing too many skill points. So, I may just have to stick with a balanced Int/Wis.

Still! Thank you, because I didn't know that feature existed in any class.


That's true, but there's just so much Swift Action competition going on. Personal Trial & Ki Pool to start. My rule of thumb is that a character should never have more than three common uses of swift actions at hand, but others may disagree.

(Of course, many GMs, such as myself, allow players to use move or standard actions to take swift actions, in which case it's a very different matter)

Nazrelle wrote:

I have a know-very-much-cohort via leadership with one of my characters.

Liked to give him Tireless Logic trait.

** spoiler omitted **

Hmm... a good thought, though I don't know if this guy is ever going to be failing intelligence skill checks in the first place. He's also less "Tireless Logic" than a guy who just somehow knows most everything despite spending most of his time meditating on a mountain top. If there were a low-level way to get WIS to knowledge (as opposed to just to identify monsters) I would have gone with that. I'm pretty sure there isn't (though I'd love to be wrong).

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Hey, so: I've got a 5th level character, Monk (Ki Mystic, Sensei, Qinggong) 4 / Investigator (Spiritualist) 1 NPC here. Long and short of it is that he's got +21+1d6 in 8 knowledges, and +19+1d6 in the other two, along with several other flavorful abilities.

He's pretty bad combat wise, only saved from being *completely* useless through Advice and Insightful Strike. But that's fine, because he's an NPC. I would love any general suggestions as to anything I can do to tweak him to either make him more flavorful, more interesting, or just better. Already using the Breadth of Experience, Dilettante and Deific Obedience (Irori) feats. Traits in particular; right now I have Wisdom in the Flesh and Grounded, but the latter can easily be replaced.

Thanks in advance for any input!


Half-Elf (old)
Racial Abilities:
Reflexive Improvisation: +2 on any untrained skill
Sophisticate: +2 Knowledge (history), +2 Knowledge (local)
Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, Elf Blood

Str 11 Dex 13 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 7 (20 pt. buy)
Str 8 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 20 Wis 18 Cha 9 (Race, Age & 4th level)

Monk (Ki Mystic, Sensei, Qinggong) 4 / Investigator (Spiritualist) 1

Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (Acrobatics), Grounded
Feats: Deflect Arrows, Breadth of Experience, Dilletante, Deific Obedience (Irori)

Fort +4 = +4 + 0 stat
Refl +7 = +6 + 0 stat + 1 trait
Will +10 = +6 + 4 stat
Unarmed Strike/monk weapons: +7 = +3 BAB +4 WIS

+8 Acrobatics: 1 rank + 3 class + 4 WIS (additional +2 trait bonus for balance-related)
+3 Diplomacy: 1 rank + 3 Class - 1 stat
+4/+5 Disable Device: 1 rank + 3 class + 1 trapfinding
+8 Heal: 1 rank + 3 class + 4 Wis = +8
+19+1d6 Knowledge (nobility, engineering): 1 rank+3 class+5 Int +8 feats+2 Ki Mystic+1d6 Investigator
+21+1d6 Knowledge (history, local): 1 rank+2 race+3 class+5 Int +8 feats+2 Ki Mystic+1d6 Investigator
+21+1d6 Knowledge (big 6): 3 ranks + 3 class + 5 Int + 8 feats+2 Ki Mystic+1d6 Investigator
+13+1d6 Linguistics: 5 ranks + 3 class + 5 Int + 1d6 Investigator
+10 Sense Motive: 3 ranks + 3 class + 4 Wis
+12 Perception: 3 ranks + 3 class + 4 Wis + 2 Race
+13+1d6 Spellcraft: 5 ranks + 3 class + 5 Int + 1d6 Investigator
+8 Profession (any): 0 ranks + 2 racial + 4 Wis + 2 feat
+7 Craft (any): 0 ranks + 2 racial + 5 Int

Advice (Ex): Inspire Courage or Inspire Competence as a 4th level bard, 8 rounds per day.

Insightful Strike (Ex): Use WIS instead of DEX or STR on monk weapons and unarmed strikes

Maneuver Training, Stunning Fist (Ex): As 4th level monk.

SLA: 'barkskin', CL 4 (+2), self-only, costs 1 ki.

Commune with Spirits (Sp): 5/day, 'comprehend languages', 'detect secret doors', or 'identify' with casting time of one minute.

Inspiration (Ex): 6/day. Add 1d6 to Knowledge, Linguistics and Spellcraft checks for free. Expend a use to add 1d6 to an ability or other skill check.

Ki Mystic (Su): 8 ki/day. +2 knowledge checks while 1 ki remains. Spend 1 ki to gain +4 insight on a skill or ability check, in addition to normal monk ki options.

Hmm... there is Charisma synergy there, yes, though my first thought is that it is splitting the focus of the character too much between melee and support.

That being said, the archetype doesn't seem to give up *too* much that is essential to the build; the most painful thing is probably the loss of the AC. It would also be *really* late in the build that the bardic music would start being effective.

Definitely a possibility, but it doesn't strike me as a fantastic choice just yet; of course, I don't understand the Brawler well yet, either.

MisterDoug wrote:
Looking at the ACG, for the Flurry build instead of 1 level in Sohei would it be more effective to take 2 levels of Brawler? Still can flurry in armor, gains martial flexibility, and perception as a class skill!

You may not even still be around, but I'll answer this anyway.

Looking over the new classes, my thoughts are:

Swashbuckler dip: nah. Seems to have potential on the surface, but there are no decent piercing, flurriable weapons without paying too much for feats.

Brawler dip: no. You need two levels compared to Sohei's one level. Monk has perception as a class skill anyway, and the first level Sohei also grabs a bonus feat, and that nice "always act in the surprise round" icing on the cake. But, the big thing really is the fact that it's only one level. If you're doing mainly a paladin, you don't want to dip more than you have to.

HOWEVER, it does seem on the surface that Iroran Paladin 4 / Brawler X could be something very solid; I have to think about it more.

Nyaa wrote:
Celestial Obedience?

I did note that as a possible feat in the guide, but are you asking about something in particular?

So, been away from Pathfinder for, oh... 15 months. Anyway, made a few minor changes to the guide. For one, someone correctly pointed out in PM that Temple Sword is not a choice for a Sohei dip, because Sohei lose normal monk proficiencies in favor of martial weapons; I had completely overlooked that Temple Sword is not a martial weapon. Luckily, this has no impact on the martial Sansetsukon, which is what you should be using anyway for this build for flurrying. Changed the guide to note that. The second is confusion over this point:

Debeziah White wrote:

I may be missing something obvious but for the is for the flurry build, is the only reason for the sohei archtype on the monk level dip the Sohei ability to always act in the surprise round?


Because no, the reason for the Sohei dip is that it is the only way to be able to use Flurry of Blows in light armor. The other stuff Sohei gives you is just gravy. I added a link in the guide showing the ruling on that.

Anyway, I need to catch up on these new-fangled double class things, like Swashbuckler, which were playtest when I was first doing this. Any cool synergies people want to point out with the new stuff are welcome; if I include anything you suggest I will credit you in the guide, as I did for several others.

I'm not going to do the disservice of pretending I'm not pleased on some level, if only for the headaches it will save in disagreement, but it is a shame that such an (eventually) constructive discussion essentially came to naught. I was even starting to warm up to the 1 check/use version, and Drake's "magical method acting".

Honestly, if you have Lingering Performance, I think the Headband of Fortune's Favor is overkill, and not worth giving up the slot that could boost your charisma.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
It also has the cost of a round of bardic performance every time you use it.
Thats like steroids costing a buck 50. Its not a signifigant limitation to its use.

No, it's not.

But, I do think the limitation of one skill check per use is significant.

The ability is constrained when it comes to monster identification. If you don't know the combat is coming, first of all, you're spending a standard action to start the ability, that you could be doing something else, if you want to identify anything. Even if you do know it's coming, and have the ability active, you're only going to identify one thing if you're fighting multiple types of monsters, or identify one spell effect, per combat.

It isn't a significant limitation on out of combat knowledge checks, but it's something, and it means that other knowledge gurus can still shine on identification.

It also means that if there are a bunch of potions, or whatnot, the Bard can't identify the lot of them via Spellcraft without burning through a lot of rounds, which can start to add up at that point.

As said, I still wouldn't allow it in my games, but it is something.

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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Yeah, I'm going to keep the archetype. I just wish the aasimar FCB worked on Archaeologist's Luck.

Who says it doesn't? Archaeologist's Luck says in its own text that it functions exactly like Bardic Performance for things that enhance bardic performances.

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