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I believe the Paladin and Ranger would be without their Divine Focus, hindering them a little bit. The Ranger's animal companion should be able to wreck-face, though.
Unless their religion frowns on tattoos, I can't see any reason for a divine caster of any level where 100g is trivial not having a tattooed holy symbol. Leaves your hand free, can't be taken from you without someone being willing to cut your arm off, can't be dropped, doesn't need to be retrieved from a container, is available even if you're naked, etc.
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All while the Balor nearby continues to wash himself..
Wow, the Martial Master is an incredibly good archetype for the Fighter. It also fits the theme of the fighter, which is lots and lots of feats. Feats for every occasion. Any number of combat feats... that's insane. That 20th level fighter is suddenly ready for absolutely anything that comes his way (except for dominate person I suppose).
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Wow, the Martial Master is an incredibly good archetype for the Fighter. It also fits the theme of the fighter, which is lots and lots of feats. Feats for every occasion. Any number of combat feats... that's insane. That 20th level fighter is suddenly ready for absolutely anything that comes his way (except for dominate person I suppose).
The amount of feats is still limited by his version of Martial Flexibility. At most he can "nova" for one minute to get 13 Combat feats.
What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.You Disarm. You Provoke. Rogue hits you for eh damage. All of a sudden, that disarm is unlikely to land due to the CMB modifier from taking damage.
Is the 1d6+10 going be enough to overcome the difference in ability scores?
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All while the Balor nearby continues to wash himself..
It casts Blasphemy and the fight ends. A naked balor is just down the weapons in its stat block and nothing else =P
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I think he busts out of the bath, grabs a stick, and beats them all to death.
Then he never bathes again!
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Is the 1d6+10 going be enough to overcome the difference in ability scores?What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.You Disarm. You Provoke. Rogue hits you for eh damage. All of a sudden, that disarm is unlikely to land due to the CMB modifier from taking damage.
A -11-16 to your attack roll is likely to be a big hindrance, yes.
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Is the 1d6+10 going be enough to overcome the difference in ability scores?What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.You Disarm. You Provoke. Rogue hits you for eh damage. All of a sudden, that disarm is unlikely to land due to the CMB modifier from taking damage.
It should be
Level 20 fighter
20 BAB +8 str mod +2 dex mod = 30ish
Rogue
10 + 7 BAB + 8(from strength and dex) +2 deflection = 27
27+ 10 min damage= 37(if the rogue is a strength based rogue this could be high enough to give the fighter a less than 50% chance at success.
However even if the fighter gets his hands on the +2 weapon many of the feats and class features are for specific weapons or weapon groups. The fighter is still in trouble since he still has to get to, and kill any casters before they entrap him with battlefield control or he falls due to a mind controlling spell. There is also that other full BAB martial who will be attacking, and have no trouble hitting him.
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@ Paladin - I think the naked L20 paladin would be in pretty good shape, honestly - healing every round for a flat 60 points + status removals, or hitting people with her hairbrush for like 1d3+24-6ish per swat before power attack if smite works.If you're ambushing a paladin in the bathtub, smite probably works. ;)
The Paladin and Ranger are in better shape. The Paladin still has Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, some nice immunities, naturally good saves (augmented by Divine Grace), and access to spells in which to whup much butt (depending on build, bestow grace, divine power, etc).
A single spell turns any melee weapon into a +5 holy weapon which he can then use his divine bond with. Lay on Hands reduces the pain of having a lower AC since he can heal 60 HP / round as a swift action.
Ranger still has Hide in Plain Sight and maxed Stealth, as well as in-house access to Freedom of Movement and some pretty decent CC spells and such. More than likely this means that the Ranger can choose his fight more carefully. He's also got a decent chance of one-shotting an enemy with a DC 23 or so save or die (thanks to master hunter) which means he can use HIPS + Instant Enemy + Master Hunter to stealth-kill a mage or something since at 10th level contingency-type spells are less frequent.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Ah, so now we're assuming a fighter who only took feats that deal direct damage and nothing else?
For example, if the fighter isn't a complete meathead and actually has improved disarm, than he starts with just taking his damn sword back.
Yeah, but you're missing the important point:
A Fighter20 defeating a Warrior1 who stole his gear actually requires consideration of specialized tactics.
I dunno about you, but I find that pretty bothersome.
No, he doesn't. A fighter has 4 attacks, 5 if he chooses to twf since penalties don't matter as long as he gets a 20 which auto hits.
He needs to land ONE blow on the warrior to drop him, as he has like 10hp. The Fighter has WELL over 100. The warrior will have 1 attack per round and might do something like 10-15 hp in damage even with equipment. Disregarding crits.
In the minute it takes for the lvl1 warrior to make 10 swings that might get the fighter down, the fighter will have made 50 swings at least ONE of which will be an automatic hit that will drop the warrior.
The warrior is doing more like 20 HP per hit (a little more if Power Attacking).
And the fighter attacking unarmed is provoking. So if this warrior happens to have Combat Reflexes, then between the warrior's own turn and a 14 DEX's worth of AoOs, the fighter is losing about 100HP per round. That fighter's gonna drop by the end of his own second full-attack, or sooner if the warrior crits.
Or even without Combat Reflexes, there's still one AoO per round, so the fighter's losing about 50HP per round, which leaves him dropping somewhere during round 4. That's approaching 20, not 50, attacks from the fighter. So yeah, that's good odds of getting that nat 20 before dropping... until we factor in that the warrior is critting on 30% of his attacks with that keen falchion he stole. So really the fighter probably has more like 15-ish attacks before he's down. So the 20th-level fighter has about an 85% chance of winning the slugfest against a 1st-level warrior who stole his stuff.
But anyway, the point is not that the fighter will lose, the point is that we even have to consider the possibility or do the math or choose the tactic.
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Yar. A 15% chance to lose against someone 19 levels below you is really, really sad.
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I'm more worried about the Fighter's Will Save. On average it'll only be something like a +10
He's gonna get savaged by whatever the casters in the party throw down at the start.
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How'd they get past the guards?
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I think it would be interesting to switch over to a 20th lvl wizard or the like taking a bath and getting jumped but I know the outcome is much different (spoiler everyone dies or the spellcaster gets away)
Hmm I wonder what the most interesting way the bather (be her fighter, wizard, monster or something else) could defend himself and win.
Off the top of my head a Bard uses Deadly Performance to dance an assailant to death.
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I think it would be interesting to switch over to a 20th lvl wizard or the like taking a bath and getting jumped but I know the outcome is much different (spoiler everyone dies or the spellcaster gets away)
The 20th-level diviner auto-wins initiative, casts power word kill on the 10th-level caster, then flies out of the tub (because overland flight was already running) and casts quickened greater invisibility. What's left of the 10th-level party gets a set of actions (maybe invisibility purge from the cleric and the pre-buffed flying fighter moves up and attacks once?) and then Mr. 20 gets to decimate the rest of them.
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I have to agree with the level 20 fighter grappling the mage, disarming them of anything they were holding; Staff, Rod, Wand, etc, and using it to improvised bludgeon them to death.
If it's a martial master level 20 fighter, he'll change up his game for the giggles
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He disarms a party member of their weapon (preferably a weapon he has training in) and then begins a total party kill.
This is good. Or he readies his loofah for war.
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This is the kind of fighter who must have had an insane amount of luck to survive to level 20 and still have the habit of bathing via non-prestidigitation items in a non-secure location.
With that in mind, I say the fighter wins initiative and does a lunge great cleave with the bathtub. He crits every attack and the whole party instantly dies.
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Ah, so now we're assuming a fighter who only took feats that deal direct damage and nothing else?
For example, if the fighter isn't a complete meathead and actually has improved disarm, than he starts with just taking his damn sword back.
Yeah, but you're missing the important point:
A Fighter20 defeating a Warrior1 who stole his gear actually requires consideration of specialized tactics.
I dunno about you, but I find that pretty bothersome.
No, he doesn't. A fighter has 4 attacks, 5 if he chooses to twf since penalties don't matter as long as he gets a 20 which auto hits.
He needs to land ONE blow on the warrior to drop him, as he has like 10hp. The Fighter has WELL over 100. The warrior will have 1 attack per round and might do something like 10-15 hp in damage even with equipment. Disregarding crits.
In the minute it takes for the lvl1 warrior to make 10 swings that might get the fighter down, the fighter will have made 50 swings at least ONE of which will be an automatic hit that will drop the warrior.
The warrior is doing more like 20 HP per hit (a little more if Power Attacking).
And the fighter attacking unarmed is provoking. So if this warrior happens to have Combat Reflexes, then between the warrior's own turn and a 14 DEX's worth of AoOs, the fighter is losing about 100HP per round. That fighter's gonna drop by the end of his own second full-attack, or sooner if the warrior crits.
Or even without Combat Reflexes, there's still one AoO per round, so the fighter's losing about 50HP per round, which leaves him dropping somewhere during round 4. That's approaching 20, not 50, attacks from the fighter. So yeah, that's good odds of getting that nat 20 before dropping... until we factor in that the warrior is critting on 30% of his attacks with that keen falchion he stole. So really the fighter probably has more like 15-ish attacks before he's down. So the 20th-level fighter...
Hilariously, if we're actually using General Meathead, the NPC Codex L20 fighter, then General Meathead's actually in much better shape against the jerk who stole his gear. He only needs to hit an AC of 30, and he's got an tick of close quarter weapons weapon training, so his unarmed power attacking (-6/+12) attack routine of +21/+16/+11/12 (1d3+19) should kill the first level warrior immediately.
Though it is hilarious that General Meathead would be in much more trouble if his foe had 670,000 more GP in gear.
Genuinely curious, since I know part of of the point of this to be a thread about bashing fighters - if General Meathead is a poorly written L20 barbarian fighting a first level character with 800,000 GP in gear instead of being a poorly written L20 fighter fighting a first level character with 800,000 in gear, how much better does he do?
Re: Wizard - Not every wizard's a diviner, folks. I suspect the vast majority aren't. Diviner's definitely one of the builds that easily lives through this situation, though. (There's also a monk archetype that gets to declare what his initiative roll is; that one would do pretty well too I suspect.)
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Im pretty sure the wizard just smiles as his contingency hours off...
What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.You Disarm. You Provoke. Rogue hits you for eh damage. All of a sudden, that disarm is unlikely to land due to the CMB modifier from taking damage.
Why would taking damage incur a penalty on the Disarm roll? I can't find that rule.
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He attacks them with his magnificent natural weapon! The big one he always has at the ready. As the party members avert their eyes, he disarms the party member with the largest weapon and proceeds to take down the party one by one, both weapons swinging freely.
If the fighter is a she, she distracts them with her glorious assets, then whilst the male members of the party are fascinated, she disarms the party member with the largest weapon and proceeds to take down the party one by one. Male party members get a massive penalty to their CMD to escape a grapple and a bonus to maintain a grapple on her equal to her charisma mod. If she had a charisma penalty, the party members avert their eyes instead.
:/
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I know part of of the point of this to be a thread about bashing fighter
Actually the point of this thread is that I have crazy thoughts I'd like to submit to the community to see how deep they take the rabbit hole. Be it fighter/wizard/monster I just like where the discussion goes.
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Why would taking damage incur a penalty on the Disarm roll? I can't find that rule.What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.You Disarm. You Provoke. Rogue hits you for eh damage. All of a sudden, that disarm is unlikely to land due to the CMB modifier from taking damage.
Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.
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Well... Honestly, there is no reason why a caster wouldn't have his spells prepared. Why would he even do anything in the morning before preparing spells?
Fighter might reach 20th level by being unbelievably tough. Rogues do it by being incredibly cunning, Paladins do it by being fiercely devout.
Wizards? Wizards do it by being extremely paranoid! At 20th level it is perfectly natural for a Wizard to (completely in character!) never leave his room before preparing his spells and then raising half a dozen magical protections around himself!
Having the right spells is a bit more difficult, but by 20th level, they are so many and do so much... That it's actually rather difficult to not have at least a few who can own the 10th level opponents.
Besides, the Wizard gear is unlikely to help the opponent as much as the Fighter gear does. "Oh, you now got a +6 to Int? Nice... All I have is spells 5 levels higher... A few of which are still on effect. And then, there is my Contingency... And this army of newly-created undead/constructs/whatever..."
As usual... Gear dependency is not nearly as much of a problem for casters as it is for martials. Because having the most powerful effects at your disposal is not enough... You gotta have every little bit of advantage at your favor too!
- Martials need weapons and armor? All you need is a headband... And you can craft it at half price without having to pay two feats for the benefits of less than one.
- Martials can't move and full attack? You can teleport as a move action and then cast. Twice.
- Martials need a feat to attack unarmed or with ranged weapons without provoking? You have an inbuilt mechanic to completely avoid AoO when casting in battle... And its difficulty is completely unrelated to your opponent's strength! Casting adjacent to C'thullu is just as easy as casting adjacent to a 1st level commoner.
- Martials need high specialization to just do one thing moderately well? You just grab whatever spells you want.
- Martials needs to fulfill all sorts of awful prerequisites that make no sense (e.g.: Combat Expertise). Well, most of the feats you want only require you to be an spell caster... If that! (Improved Initiative, Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, most magic item craftfing feats, most metamagic feats, toughness, etc...
Ugh...
Sorry... Rant sneaked its way in... ><'
Think these kinds of revelations that come out, along with my Martial Revenge thread, just show that martials need a genuine capability to challenge spell casters.
Spell casters gained early CL boosting at low levels, to be able to 1 shot martials in the now fabled Martials own low level play. In order to balance the scales, martial warriors need truly Extraordinary Abilities; the kind of stuff like limited time per days massive saving throw boosts, limit breaking abilities like meleeing an enemy 30ft away from SHEER FORCE. I dunno; stuff out of legends. Path of War, and Tome of battle come to mind, but preferably something PFS legal
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He attacks them with his magnificent natural weapon! The big one he always has at the ready. As the party members avert their eyes, he disarms the party member with the largest weapon and proceeds to take down the party one by one, both weapons swinging freely.
Thank you, I was going to be seriously disappointed if I got to the end of the thread and no one had commented on the fact that the level 20 warrior has a decent chance of having an epic 2 hander available at all times, even when in the bath :)
Honestly that was beautiful..
I'd only like to see how each individual caster class deals with the situation (Only to drive the conversation on to PrCs and the Bestiaries later.)
Slightly off-topic: this dicussion had me thinking about the bathtub sceen in The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly.
"You want to shoot, shoot! Don't talk!"
Even in the bath, characters that got to 20th level will have something close to hand they can use.
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Hah, look at all this from an innocent question.
I kind of assumed a 'naked' fighter would have his amulets and rings on, at the very least.
Then you have to determine what kind of bath he's in...inside a house, what floor, outside, in a cave, what?
He'll probably hear them coming. That could be the difference between life and death...he could at least grab a weapon and shield if he gets the surprise round.
Is there a defensive potion he could drink that could save his arse? Anything to up his immediate AC, and the fight probably turns. Mage armor won't cut it...but since he'll have +5 Nat Armor and +5 Deflection going, he's not actually all that horrible to start with. I estimate a 19 Dex for another +4 AC. Defensive fighting will get that to 27. If he has combat expertise, he can potentially hit 32. If he grabs his +5 shield, he can actually hit 38...at which point the level 10 party might not be able to hit him and he could likely slaughter them all.
As for Wiz/20....Precast Foresight. Solid defensive spell, long duration. He knows they are coming. One time stop later, they burst onto the wizard bathing and find a glowering planetar sitting there with an Astral Deva and Huge Celestial Water Elemental, and the wizard smoking his pipe on the opposite side of the room (really a projected image, but he has to rub it in).
==Aelryinth
Presuming our 20th level fighter is in fact a regular fighter, then all he needs to do is pick up a shield - any shield - to get DR 5/-. That won't save him entirely, but it will help (especially versus the Warrior 1 in his gear).
Hmm, are there rules for improvised shields? There should be.
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Only with sufficient Ranks in Diplomacy and/or Bluff, and a substantial penalty for doing a rush job of it.
How many skill points do fighters get again? Are those class skills?
Ah, right.
==Aelryinth
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I kind of assumed a 'naked' fighter would have his amulets and rings on, at the very least.
I think the point is more about a character being caught with no gear, rather than literally being ambushed while bathing (since in that case, any half-sane character would have at very least his rings and amulets... And probably an weapon nearby too).
Seriously, once you get a silversheen weapon (which cost a whooping 400gp more than normal ones and are completely immune to rust) why would you ever not have at least on weapon with you at all times? You don't survive to 20th level by being careless.
Only with sufficient Ranks in Diplomacy and/or Bluff, and a substantial penalty for doing a rush job of it.
How many skill points do fighters get again? Are those class skills?
Ah, right.==Aelryinth
I think Diplomacy wouldn't even work... Not only Fighters are horrible at social skills other than Intimidate (few skill points, no class skills, no incentive to raise Cha, etc), there is also the fact that the rules explicitly state that Diplomacy is more often than not, ineffective against creatures that intend to do you harm in the immediate future.
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Honestly that was beautiful..
I'd only like to see how each individual caster class deals with the situation (Only to drive the conversation on to PrCs and the Bestiaries later.)
I think a wizard or sorcerer is going to make a tactical retreat. He may however come back with summons and called monsters to do his work for him.
A druid might do the same but without the called monsters.
Yeah I am aware that the wiz/sorc may not have access to his gold.
Actually most full casters can do this. ---> no need to keep repeating.
I think the takeaway here is that a most fighters with no gear lose more than most spellcasters with no gear more than most monsters with no gear lol.
Don't sneak up on a Tarrasque while he is bathing
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I think the takeaway here is that a most fighters with no gear lose more than most spellcasters with no gear more than most monsters with no gear lol.
Don't sneak up on a Tarrasque while he is bathing
I think Fighters with no gear lose more than any other class with no gear...
Sure, Rogues will have worse defenses and offense, but they at least have enough skill points to try and escape the battle or something.
Fighters? Not so much... Having only 2 skill points per level and zero out-of-combat class features pretty much limits them to fight-or-flight response... Except they are not very good at fleeing, and without gear, not very good at fighting either, since they have very high bonuses (most of which were stripped away) but little in-combat versatility.
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Threads like these also illustrate one thing:
There is a big difference between designing a level 20 Fighter to play the game, and saying, "Now, if I were a 20th level Fighter, I'd have..."
Because if you were, you'd invest in a lot different stuff just so stuff like this couldn't happen to you.
I agree that Martial Mastery could and might well save the Fighter's arse in this scenario. But, since this is a game, not 'real life', planning for this kind of situation is almost a moot point.
==Aelryinth
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What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.You Disarm. You Provoke. Rogue hits you for eh damage. All of a sudden, that disarm is unlikely to land due to the CMB modifier from taking damage.
Allow me to further explain:
You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack.
So what actually happens is you unleash your fully armed and operational iterative attacks. Even if the rogue is dual-wielding, you will probably disarm both their weapons. If you have TWF, you'll be launching two disarm attempts at your highest BAB -2. Even a very poorly optimized 20th level fighter can easily disarm a 10th level rogue under most normal circumstances. If you have even the most basic advantages - TWF, Improved Disarm, Catch Off-Guard, Lunge, anything that provides the slightest advantage - it's a foregone conclusion.
I think it's also safe to assume that a 20th level fighter either has an archetype that provides some immunities, or has one or both of Improved Great Fortitude and Improved Iron Will. While it won't provide durable protection, it decidedly lowers your opponents' changes of taking you out in one or two rounds, which is what they really need to do.
If your attackers can figure out some way to perform a Spirited Charge through your bathroom wall or into a lake, this situation does look pretty bad for you. But they would really have to get the jump on you if they are depending on sneak attack dice, save or suck spells, and the usual countermeasures. Because of the numerical advantage, they have a good chance of winning if the battle is to the death, but you will probably do some damage.
If your goal is to escape, and you're at the lake, I suggest grappling the wizard, then diving into the lake and swimming away. Drowning the wizard is optional, depending on what they are able to pull off. If you're actually in a well-appointed bathroom, you are probably never truly unarmed.
Fighters? Not so much... Having only 2 skill points per level and zero out-of-combat class features pretty much limits them to fight-or-flight response... Except they are not very good at fleeing, and without gear, not very good at fighting either, since they have very high bonuses (most of which were stripped away) but little in-combat versatility.
I don't really agree with that. Fighters are versatile (in combat). You get eleven bonus combat feats, and you can spend your other feats on pretty much anything you want. Your bonuses are so high you can often pull off maneuvers without having any specialized feats. If you are built for long-term play, you probably have one main set of tactics, which is overwhelmingly powerful when you can put it into play, and one or two other secondary sets, which can be an unpleasant surprise for someone expecting a one-trick pony.
Just slapping Improved Unarmed Strike, one feat, on a fighter means you are never truly unarmed, and for all anyone knows, you could have weapon training bonuses with your unarmed attacks. Someone could learn the hard way that you are capable of sundering most weapons with your bare hands.
Or Lunge. Lunge means never having to say you're sorry... or taking AoOs for performing maneuvers against most humanoid opponents.
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If your attackers can figure out some way to perform a Spirited Charge through your bathroom wall or into a lake, this situation does look pretty bad for you
Oh yeah...
Title says it all. Lets assume he is naked (or at less without his weapon in hand). What are some good strategies for the fighter.I'll do ya one better:
Suppose that while the Fighter20 is bathing, a Warrior1 with the same (starting) ability scores grabs all his gear and puts it on, then attacks the Fighter20. Now the Warrior only misses on a 1 (with his +5 keen falchion or whatever) and the Fighter only hits on a 20 (and provokes an AoO with each attack thanks to a lack of IUS).
What are the odds of the fighter actually winning the fight?
Disarm game over CMD doesn't change just because you pick up a sexy weapon.
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So what actually happens is you unleash your fully armed and operational iterative attacks. Even if the rogue is dual-wielding, you will probably disarm both their weapons. If you have TWF, you'll be launching two disarm attempts at your highest BAB -2. Even a very poorly optimized 20th level fighter can easily disarm a 10th level rogue under most normal circumstances. If you have even the most basic advantages - TWF, Improved Disarm, Catch Off-Guard, Lunge, anything that provides the slightest advantage - it's a foregone conclusion.
I think it's also safe to assume that a 20th level fighter either has an archetype that provides some immunities, or has one or both of Improved Great Fortitude and Improved Iron Will. While it won't provide durable protection, it decidedly lowers your opponents' changes of taking you out in one or two rounds, which is what they really need to do.
The math I did upthread disagrees. It might be easy or might be a lot closer to 50% than the fighter wants it to be. Even if the chance is 40% they drop if he tries to do it twice. Also there is no way to say if the fighter has archetypes of not, or which ones, not that I think it matters unless it is the one that lets you choose your feats every day.
edit: The fighter for my math was assuming a strength based rogue. If this is dex based rogue with less strength the fighter has a better chance of the damage from the AoO causing him to fail the disarm. Once again the strength rogue is showing why it should be played instead. Yeah yeah I know this thread is not about rogues.