A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Darkheyr wrote:

As well, it's still a harsh difference between an accidental encounter, and level 10 enemies that are very knowledgeable about their target and that actually prepared a well thought-out assassination attempt.

And the latter is very, very dangerous for the wizard as well.

I'm not very interested in the wizard talk other than joking about it. As per above, I consider the wizard's answer to the scenario to be so straightforward it's hardly worth discussing.


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Deadbeat Doom wrote:

Too be fair, we should assume any class in this scenario (for whatever reason, you pick) does not have anything that comes from gear, including lingering effects.

In this case, using only class features not reliant on gear (including spell pouches and holy symbols), how would an average character of each class fair?

Right off the bat average Fighters are boned; without a specific build for gear-less combat, I don't see the majority of Fighters surviving this situation.

Rogues built for pure combat are probably boned as well, unless they have Hide in Plain Sight or are able to obtain cover and run.

They've gotta be bathing in something.

Quote:


Monk will be nearly in top form.... so yeah nearly untouchable but only really able to get away rather than sweep the floor with them.

I would say a 20th level monk without gear could wipe the floor with a tenth level party. Easily. His saves and touch AC are good enough that the mage isn't nearly as big a problem, and he's still got enough HP to take a lot of punishment while he mows down the big threats. Plus, he's got a good enough move speed and Acrobatics to ensure he can easily escape if things start to go south.

LazarX wrote:
I've yet to see anyone admit that an overpowered stunt is overpowered.

...I'm sure that meant something when you thought of it, but can you clarify? It seems like you're saying, "Your opinion that it's not overpowered is wrong because that's what you would say."

It forces the caster to spend a whole turn just to force a -4. It's not even as good as Bestow Curse.

I'd say a -4 to-hit for the doll unbalancing the net would work pretty well. I don't think it's really fair to go accusing the player of trying to abuse or change rules—it's an interesting interpretation, and hardly...

shadowkras wrote:
Actually, the character is a hexblade magus, net adept (his nets are 10 ft reach weapons), which uses his net to debuff the target AC, grabs the net with his hair (hex) then proceeed to attack with his magical halberd.

hahaha okay I take it back this guy's a doofus


What if the enemy party wins initiative and readies actions against spellcasting? ;D


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Darkheyr wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I too, think a wizard has more options for odd circumstances at his disposal - but right now, folks are very actively trying to construct circumstances harshly against a fighter, and even go as war as flat-out dismissing any notion of a fighter selecting more than his Greatsword-DPR feats or similar, while it seems perfectly alright to assume that every wizard knows the perfect spell for the situation, has it prepared, and even carefully buffed beforehand.

While fighters? Fighters are apparently generalised as idiots.

Because that's the way discussions about fighters and wizards go in these boards.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
What if the enemy party wins initiative and readies actions against spellcasting? ;D

Obviously the Wizard has a contingent teleport that triggers the moment his concentration is broken but before he takes damage, duuuuh! :P


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
What if the enemy party wins initiative and readies actions against spellcasting? ;D

Well, if I were playing the wizard, I'd probably notice that the people who beat me in init are holding their actions, and lead with a first level quickened or swift spell or something to draw out the readies before I cast the spell that I actually wanted to get off.

It's a favored tactic when I can tell that someone is readying (likely vs. a spell from me). Great, you interrupted the charm person, now suck on the mass charm monster.

But depending on the circumstnace, you might have to eat the readies and muddle through with a quickened spell or possibly even be delayed a round. Also, I'll be honest, I rarely construct a contingency that could remove me from a fight against my will, so "teleport if I am ever targeted by an attack" or all that nonsense isn't really a feature of any of my spellcasters. I find "if I speak a certain phrase" to be versatile enough for three out of four situations I'd want my contingency.

...s#~+, how did I end up talking about wizards despite my best intentions.


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Cleric caught bathing by 10th level party?

Holy Word.

*HOLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY*
*Bad guys die*

Cleric continues bathing.


Coriat wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
What if the enemy party wins initiative and readies actions against spellcasting? ;D

Well, if I were playing the wizard, I'd probably notice that the people who beat me in init are holding their actions, and lead with a first level quickened or swift spell or something to draw out the readies before I cast the spell that I actually wanted to get off.

It's a favored tactic when I can tell that someone is readying (likely vs. a spell from me). Great, you interrupted the charm person, now suck on the mass charm monster.

But depending on the circumstnace, you might have to eat the readies and muddle through with a quickened spell or possibly even be delayed a round. Also, I'll be honest, I rarely construct a contingency that could remove me from a fight against my will, so "teleport if I am ever targeted by an attack" or all that nonsense isn't really a feature of any of my spellcasters. I find "if I speak a certain phrase" to be versatile enough for about 80% of contingency uses.

...s#~!, how did I end up talking about wizards despite my best intentions.

I'd just throw down an Emergency Force Bubble and summon my pocket outsider to mop the floor with them...


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Sure, emergency force sphere is often a strong option and has the swift (even better, immediate in this case) thing going for it as well.


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Coriat wrote:
Sure, emergency force sphere is often a strong option and has the swift thing going for it as well.

It really really bothers me that a Wizard gets a free planar ally and Clerics have nothing similar.


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Scavion wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Sure, emergency force sphere is often a strong option and has the swift thing going for it as well.
It really really bothers me that a Wizard gets a free planar ally and Clerics have nothing similar.

Yeah, it would take a 'Miracle' for that to happen. ;D


Kobold Cleaver wrote:


Monk will be nearly in top form.... so yeah nearly untouchable but only really able to get away rather than sweep the floor with them.

I would say a 20th level monk without gear could wipe the floor with a tenth level party. Easily. His saves and touch AC are good enough that the mage isn't nearly as big a problem, and he's still got enough HP to take a lot of punishment while he mows down the big threats. Plus, he's got a good enough move speed and Acrobatics to ensure he can easily escape if things start to go south.

Monk without gear handle a 10th geared party?

Good one.

Monks are very gear dependent in HP/AC/hit/CMB. Their saves aren't too bad though without gear.

Can only field a Monk level 10 gear-less's stats that are good. I'd like to see how you'd think he'd be god without gear.

Now a Synthegist Summoner: I'd believe she'd have good AC without gear. Plus, spells like Shield, Stoneskin, etc.

But a Monk: What AC 26? (20 Dex, 24 Wis, 4 from level? I assume 17 Dex, 17 Wis at level 1 as Monks are pretty MAD; 5 from levels. Then +5 wish)
I mean, that AC sucks for level 10.
You need 30 to be decent at level 10 (his enemies: BTW, 15 +1.5 lv is decent). So he'll be hit pretty often.
He'd need 35 (20 +1.5 Lv) to be almost untouchable.
I mean, sure he is within average AC at level 10 (10 +1.5 lv). But that isn't impressive.

Remember, a Level 10 Fighter has at least a +11 hit at level 10 (weapon focus is a little given). Then add Str or Dex.
So we can at minimum assume a +16 hit. So 50% hit against this monk if we deny a magic weapon for this fighter.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I would expect the Monk to pin the opponents in the bathwater and drown them.


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It's actually a +5 AC bonus from level. Just saying. Dodge isn't that far-fetched a prospect, either.

The monk will be dishing out around seven attacks per round, with 2d10 damage dice. His fists are easily as good as the magic weapons his enemies have. He has DR 10/chaotic, gets to be immune to a decent number of enchantment spells (just a nice little bonus), a save-or-die ability that's around DC 29 to resist (I'm assuming Ability Focus [quivering palm]), spell resistance, and the ability to go ethereal, heal himself, and reenter with enough time to deliver a Stunning Fist to the enemy cleric.

Add in the fact that he can pretty much escape whenever he wants (he moves half again as fast as a flying mage) and there's not really any way the monk dies in this fight as long as his player is smart.


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Let's be real, the Monk traded out his Spell Resistance for Blood Crow Strike or Cold Ice Strike.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:

Monk without gear handle a 10th geared party?
Good one.

Monks are very gear dependent in HP/AC/hit/CMB. Their saves aren't too bad though without gear.

Can only field a Monk level 10 gear-less's stats that are good. I'd like to see how you'd think he'd be god without gear.

Now a Synthegist Summoner: I'd believe she'd have good AC without gear. Plus, spells like Shield, Stoneskin, etc.

But a Monk: What AC 26? (20 Dex, 24 Wis, 4 from level? I assume 17 Dex, 17 Wis at level 1 as Monks are pretty MAD; 5 from levels. Then +5 wish)
I mean, that AC sucks for level 10.
You need 30 to be decent at level 10 (his enemies: BTW, 15 +1.5 lv is decent). So he'll be hit pretty often.
He'd need 35 (20 +1.5 Lv) to be almost untouchable.
I mean, sure he is within average AC at level 10 (10 +1.5 lv). But that isn't impressive.

Remember, a Level 10 Fighter has at least a +11 hit at level 10 (weapon focus is a little given). Then add Str or Dex.
So we can at minimum assume a +16 hit. So 50% hit against this monk if we deny a magic weapon for this fighter.

A Qinggong monk - which is compatible with every monk archetype - can swap out slow fall or high jump for barkskin, so that's an additional +5 AC for him.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

In all seriousness, you've under-estimated the Monk's AC. At the very least the monk has probably gone Qingong enough to pick up Barkskin as a ki power.

The Monk that I run with is a Flowing Monk, which gets a bonus to AC for every adjacent opponent, can interrupt attacks made against them, and can redirect attacks so that they hit their enemies. And lets not forget SR 30 and the ability to reflect spells back on their caster.

It's always fun to make opponents kill themselves.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Let's be real, the Monk traded out his Spell Resistance for Blood Crow Strike or Cold Ice Strike.

Did they ever clarify exactly how BCS actually works?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

The monk will be dishing out around seven attacks per round, with 2d10 damage dice. His fists are easily as good as the magic weapons his enemies have. He has DR 10/chaotic, gets to be immune to a decent number of enchantment spells (just a nice little bonus), a save-or-die ability that's around DC 29 to resist (I'm assuming Ability Focus [quivering palm]), spell resistance, and the ability to go ethereal, heal himself, and reenter with enough time to deliver a Stunning Fist to the enemy cleric.

Add in the fact that he can pretty much escape whenever he wants (he moves half again as fast as a flying mage) and there's not really any way the monk dies in this fight as long as his player is smart.

I'm not saying the Monk wouldn't be capable of winning... But seriously, the self-heal is so awful it might as well not exist. And if the Monk has half a brain cell he traded SR for something that actually benefits him.


The self-heal isn't that bad when combined with etherealness, actually. When you're dealing with "death by a thousand cuts", it might be worth it. Only if you've already taken down the group's healer, of course.

Sure, your enemies can use the time to heal, too, but they have fewer HP that can benefit from that.

Also, it sounds like SR "actually benefits him" right now, and in any fight against a caster. Spell-like abilities become more and more common as you gain levels, too. :P


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

The self-heal isn't that bad when combined with etherealness, actually. When you're dealing with "death by a thousand cuts", it might be worth it. Only if you've already taken down the group's healer, of course.

Sure, your enemies can use the time to heal, too, but they have fewer HP that can benefit from that.

Also, it sounds like SR "actually benefits him" right now, and in any fight against a caster. Spell-like abilities become more and more common as you gain levels, too. :P

Those abilities might be useful in this particular situation... But they are so awful that no sane Monk would keep them for 20 levels. XP

SR is really bad, because not only it affects your allies' spells, but its benefits are greatly diminished by the Monks defenses (good saves, good touch AC, immunities, etc).


Getting 20 HP back when the enemy is dealing probably twice that per hit is not a good way to stave off "death by a thousand cuts".

No sane Monk wants SR, and an AoE or ranged attack helps him more in this case than it.

The smart Monk probably has traded:

-Slow Fall for Barkskin
-Wholeness of Boy for Dragon's Breath (via Retraining)
-Diamond Soul for Ki Leech
-Timeless Body and Tongue of the Sun and Moon for Blood Crow Strike and Cold Ice Strike or Ki Shout.


Ah, I see your point.

The idea of getting 20 HP back is you'd do it more than once. If you have to withdraw, it's a good emergency tactic while ethereal. Considering it's your only option for healing in this hypothetical state, I think it's worth taking into consideration. I'm not exactly saying it's worth anything as a mid-battle tactic.


That said... The Monk will probably have decent AC, good Acrobatics and great speed... He might very well escape before taking a single hit. Although he could probably take them out... But it'd be a pretty difficult battle.

In fact, he could Dimension Door away if he wanted.


Yeah, I'm basically taking for granted the monk can escape here. He can dimension door, he has Acrobatics, he's faster than anyone else in the scenario (given open range to run, he can get outside of maximum range of any spell or arrow within a few rounds) and he's got a good chance of winning initiative.

Whether the monk could win is a bit more interesting. That said, it's a CR 14 encounter against a lone CR 20 (not a full party) with poor conditions (no gear) and action economy working against her. I'd say the monk being at about even-to-above-average-odds is actually pretty close to Working As Intended.

Can't speak for the fighter or wizard, though. I guess everything's broke but the monk.


I think the Monk could win by Quivering Palming those guys... Admittedly, it's not a very useful ability, but when your target is 10 levels bellow you, it has a good chance of working.

The Monks is also probably flurrying at +27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17... His damage is pretty decent if he's Strength based. He might actually down a his opponents. Pummeling Strike means no opponent is safe from him even if he starts far away.

His AC will be at least a 21. Not amazing, but not completely awful vs 10th level characters...

Admittedly, the Monk doesn't make a proper CR 18 encounter without his gear (or even with it, actually)... But I think he has a good chance of winning the battle.


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So this is always going to be a game of hypotheticals.

For the purposes of this post I'm going to assume a 10th level party of fighter, rogue, cleric, and wizard (I would personally never run with this, but it is iconic). I'm also going to assume they're fresh as a daisy and know who they're fighting but not until they see them (so they're not prepared for that particular build but depending on divination may be prepared for a person of that class). For the 20th level character's sake I'm going to asssume they have any buff spells they can provide with a duration longer than 8 hours running on themself. This isn't specifically to exclude 10 min/level spells, 8 hours just seems like a nice working day. They have started their day and done their morning rituals and buff spells and obediences and whatever else. They're also absolutely naked with nothing whatsoever of their own within a mile. Also bathing in a lake with a river attached, but I'm open to arguments that another circumstance would help them more. How they got there is irrelevant, I'm going with Deva, baby oil, and spurs, just for the fun of it.

The level 20 character's goal is simple, live. The level 10 party's goal is the glory of victory and living long enough to appreciate it.

A level 20 naked person has 2 big weak points, saves and AC. These are followed closely by mobility (movement speed and types), options (for puzzle monsters), and "you must be this high to ride" barriers (DR, regeneration, clay golem bull@#$%).

A fighter only has bravery (hah!) and feats to make up all of these deficiencies. The fighter's saves will suck, even with full feat coverage (keep in mind those are bought with general feats because the save feats are not combat feats) we ended up with +13 with a reroll on Will saves? That's not great. Even assuming the party spellcasters only have one of each type of SoD prepared the fighter has to make two saves or, well, die. Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively can attempt to make up for the AC gap but even at level 20 you're getting at most 10 AC (6 CE 4 defensive). Even with total defense it's 12. That's the BAB of who the fighter is facing so it's 10+Dex versus Str+weapon+other bonuses+d20. That's... not in the fighter's favor. If it comes to flying, burrowing, earthgliding, climbing, etc. I think the fighter is out of luck unless they're an aasimar (and again, general feats not combat ones). This is past the level for overland flight so the fighter just isn't reaching the wizard, period. Against puzzle monsters and "this high to ride" barriers the fighter totally can deal with DR (finally a combat feat too). That's it though, and it requires that you steal a weapon you have weapon focus in (or be using unarmed strikes). The fighter's best strategy does appear to be diving underwater and swimming for the river. Or, if in a city, going out a window and running naked through the streets. The party's best strategy is probably to find some way to grapple the fighter (has to spend an action to get out, even if it's trivial) and spam SoD at them. The fighter and rogue are mostly pointless here except possibly to block charge lanes. Other classes in the party would probably make this more of a rout.

Now for other characters. Again. Barbarian destroys the party unless the party wins initiative and gets a SoD to stick. If not rage starts and nothing is going to stick. Even naked they have great saves, fly, have true seeing, get a reroll on all saves with Evasion/Mettle on the reroll, scaling bonus to armor, and rage cycling built into the class. Probably all at once, though you'd lose out on Strength Surge, Reckless Abandon, Come and Get Me, and other rage power goodness. Oh, and DR, possibly quite a lot depending on archetypes.

Bard wins unless the party knows they're facing a bard and the cleric prepares (and gets off) a silence spell. Otherwise fascinate->mass suggestion "this fight is not worth it, let's go get some beer together, my treat" or Frightening Tune then running for it.

Cleric uses holy word/blasphemy or miracle (greater teleport). Done.

Druid lets their pet do the talking. Or wildshapes into an earth elemental/water elemental/air elemental and runs for it (earthglide, swim 120, fly 120).

Monk. This one is actually interesting. Archetypes change the monk a lot but even the base monk (by which I mean qinggong) has a decent AC, decent saves, and if they didn't trade it away a pretty good resistance to the spells of the enemy spellcasters. Also their DR can protect them but if the cleric prepared Align Weapon it's useless. They also get the ability to bypass DR. They're not great against some things (swarms) but depending on qinggong choices they may be able to deal with regeneration or puzzle monster things. No flying/burrowing/climbing though (especially since the one feat that might help here uses the ability everyone trades away to qinggong). The monk can actually escape pretty easily if they can get a clear way to run, abundant step gives them a bunch of distance and they're faster than the party (but possibly not anything they summon).

Paladin has terrible AC but great healing (especially with Fey Foundling) and much nicer saves than anyone but the barbarian (and their two good saves are the biggest SoD ones). Also they're just flat immune to the worst Will effects. No special movement modes or other abilities until we factor in spells. Honestly, there's a few good spells that mitigate some of the problems but Greater Angelic Aspect covers all of it. Flying, vision, bonus to saves, bonus to AC, DR, elemental resistances and immunities, bonus v poison, immunity to petrification, constant magic circle against evil and lesser globe of invulnerability. So only 4th and 5th level spells, cleric needs to cast align weapon, flying wizard is not safe, really covers all the problems of nudity.

Ranger. Terrain Bond spells means they're in their most favored terrain (and can Stealth in all circumstances). So it's d20+10+3+wisdom+magic gear versus d20+20+3+8(favored terrain)+dex. It's... not good odds, and there are spells that can help the ranger (but the good one for the party is alchemist/bard/inquisitor/ranger only). There's also spells to cover movement modes, give AC (and protect against crits), and most of the other problems naked people face.

Rogue. Same as the fighter but with either worse saves or better saves (I think there are rogue talents that give rerolls?). The rogue's best option is to be a ninja (or just grab the talents) to go invisible and then dive in the water and swim for it. Or just run for it. The one round for a caster to get see invisibility up lets the rogue get a double-move ahead of the party.

Sorcerer. Greater Teleport.

Wizard. Ditto.


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Quote:
Also their DR can protect them but if the cleric prepared Align Weapon it's useless.

If the cleric prepared it 2-3 times and is willing to sacrifice 2-3 actions, yeah. If the DR denies the enemy the chance to get a big buff up at the very start, mission accomplished.

Quote:
So it's d20+10+3+wisdom+magic gear versus d20+20+3+8(favored terrain)+dex. It's... not good odds

A 41+ isn't good odds? Dexterity tends to be a major ability for rangers, and he's going to be getting benefits from distance.

Now, pit that against four rolls? Yes, Perception is a point tax, but Perception-boosting items aren't mandatory. It's highly doubtful even two enemies have a high enough bonus to have a chance. One of them? Almost definitely. At least one person is going to have something like eyes of the eagle that gives him some remote chance. I'd say the cleric having a +30 Perception is pretty realistic—let's be generous and give him Skill Focus (or a half-elf with Alertness). So that's against something around a DC 45-48.

In this incredibly slanted scenario, the ranger still has a 70% chance of walking away scot-free. Take away the Skill Focus and the chance turns to certainty.


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Hey, I just thought of a "caster" we can all agree is screwed.

Alchemist.

There. Now all the fighter supporters and bashers alike can gang up on that one easy target. Haha. Look at him. He can't do anything. He left his mutagen in his pants pocket. What a dork.

I'm aware there's probably some archetype or Discovery that lets him extend the mutagen all day long. Even then, I think we can probably agree he's not gonna do so hot. :P

EDIT: Actually, are there any long-duration spells that can help him out here? You never know.


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He's level 20. Mutagen lasts an hour/level starting from 14th.

So he's probably schlepping around with a Grand Mutagen upping his main stat by 8, a secondary stat by 6, and Con by 4, or all three by 8 with a True Mutagen, with a +6 or +8 Natural Armor bonus respectively.

God help you if he's a Beastmorph, because for the duration he's got 2 claws and a Bite, plus several Tentacles, and Pounce/Rake/Rend + Another Beast Shape IV ability of your choosing (I like Blindsense, or Ferocity. Maybe Poison).

As for buffs, he's likely got, or could have:

-Orchid's Drop (+2 saves for an hour/level).

-Extended Barkskin (+5 AC. With the aforementioned True Mutagen this puts his AC at 23. With 10 Dex.)

-Displacement. Permanently. 24/7 365 (Eternal Potion Discovery)

-Extended Heroism (+2 everything, basically).

-Extended Stoneskin (DR 10/Adamantine)

-Overland Flight or Wind Walk

-For giggles: Transformation (even though that's short duration, Maybe he hid a vial in some unmentionable place.)

Alchemists have one of the best self buffing spell lists in the game. You don't f&%$ with an Alchemist.


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and this is why adventurers smell so bad.


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Oh, sorry, should have made it clear that the ranger is the one with the huge advantage versus the party. They can probably just Stealth and then literally ignore the party as the party just walks past them. They get both hide in plain sight and camouflage to hide without cover or concealment even if people are looking at them. The only way to fight this is the spell Acute Senses, which as I mentioned is not available to my party.

As for the monk and align weapon, remember, my party was wizard/cleric/fighter/rogue. You only need one for the primary damage dealer, a second one for the rogue wouldn't be bad but there's probably better buffs. Chaotic is just such an odd DR they likely aren't going to have a counter handy (whereas the fighter might have material ones handy). Either way the monk can actually run for it, though 10th level party versus 20th level naked monk actually seems like a fair cage match.

As for the alchemist, mutagen is hours/level (and any rider effects that come with it) and eternal potion gives them one permanent potion (and with alchemical allocation, it counts as reusable). How useful that is depends entirely on if we use the summoner list (hello greater invisibility potion!) otherwise we're stuck with just fly/displacement/gaseous form. And as Rynjin pointed out, archetypes make this even better for the alchemist.


20th level druid.

Changes into a small earth elemental.

5 foot steps into the rock. Next round moves down, and starts summoning a herd of Large earth elementals and instructs them in their native language to head to the surface and start a volley ball game


Actually... all very nice... but b~~$&%+*.
We assume the fighter has no weapon fine. Then any caster, especially the wizard has no spell component pouch, no rods, etc.
The party of level 10 put some money together and buy a scroll of antimagic field.= Dead wizard.
Or in the first second of the fight, someone opens the door and throws in a stone of silence, then the wizard dim.doors into the room with the rogue and the fighter, the fighter grappels the mage and the rogues just slives him to pieces. Or the ninja throws in 9 shuriken doing 45 d6 damage against the wizard. Dead wizard. No vocal, no emergency force sphere. Or you have a raging barbrian, enlarged, buffed to nevernever doing the 120 damage against a flatfooted wizard any time of the week.Or you send in a swashbuckler with his cape. Dazing the wizard forever.
But the wizard can... no YOUR wizard can. Not every wizard.
But the spell is that good, he has it. Not every wizard.
It might be a shocking relevation but for some wizard your great spell is not worth it, because he has another focus, or a forbidden school.
The key is we attack someone who is feeling safe and sound and who is not anticipating an attack. Congratulations, IT DOES NOT MATTER what class you are. 99999 out of 100.000 you are dead, against a prepared party, even half your class.
Checking the NPC wizard he has naked 92 HP, no emergency force sphere. So if he gets silenced... he is dead. No silenced dim-door or teleport. No way to defend himself if silenced and naked.


We're assuming some level of foresight in building the character.

NPC Wizards are specifically made to suck. Using them for any purpose is pointless.

I also like how you're like "But yeah the Wizard is screwed because he has NONE of the good spells or Feats that could potentially save him. Not even the super common ones like Silent spell, Shapechange, or Teleport.".

Well no s&#!. I was at least nice enough to give my Fighter Lunge and Dazing Assault.


The best argument of the one who knows he was just beaten.
Check-Mate and you know it!
Oh he has silent spell, and he has Teleport and dim door. But he has not prepared himself that way. But let us say yes he has memmed it. I conced that point. How do you beat the antimagic field?
A level 6 scroll worth 1650 gp and a level 10 sorcerer or wizard should be able to cast. Yes the buffs are gone afterward but for the time being... it works.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Helikon wrote:

ow do you beat the antimagic field?

A level 6 scroll worth 1650 gp and a level 10 sorcerer or wizard should be able to cast. Yes the buffs are gone afterward but for the time being... it works.

That's not fair to the wizard so you're not allowed to use it.


Helikon wrote:

The best argument of the one who knows he was just beaten.

Check-Mate and you know it!
Oh he has silent spell, and he has Teleport and dim door. But he has not prepared himself that way. But let us say yes he has memmed it. I conced that point. How do you beat the antimagic field?
A level 6 scroll worth 1650 gp and a level 10 sorcerer or wizard should be able to cast. Yes the buffs are gone afterward but for the time being... it works.

How does he beat the Antimagic Field:

-By not letting it go off in the first place..

-By moving 10 feet away from the guy who cast it, then Teleporting.

-By pre-buffing with Aroden's Spellbane.

That's three off the top of my head.


Coriat wrote:
Darkheyr wrote:

As well, it's still a harsh difference between an accidental encounter, and level 10 enemies that are very knowledgeable about their target and that actually prepared a well thought-out assassination attempt.

And the latter is very, very dangerous for the wizard as well.

I'm not very interested in the wizard talk other than joking about it. As per above, I consider the wizard's answer to the scenario to be so straightforward it's hardly worth discussing.

I disagree, actually. Teleport will be easily shut down by dedicated attackers.

As said, there is a great difference between accidental encounters and well-prepared assassins. Spells especially loose much of their potency if your opponent expects them.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
By pre-buffing with Aroden's Spellbane.

Well, I just learned that this is a spell. Curious, which four spells do you select when casting spellbane every morning?


AMF, Disjunction, Feeblemind (maybe), and something our enemies tend to use a lot, most likely.

Spellbane is sort of a double edged sword. You don't really want to use it on anything you would use yourself, even if that spell can screw you.


Interesting spell. Certainly a must-have for wizards expecting assassins, though I wonder if its not too specific in practice.


Rynjin wrote:
Helikon wrote:

The best argument of the one who knows he was just beaten.

Check-Mate and you know it!
Oh he has silent spell, and he has Teleport and dim door. But he has not prepared himself that way. But let us say yes he has memmed it. I conced that point. How do you beat the antimagic field?
A level 6 scroll worth 1650 gp and a level 10 sorcerer or wizard should be able to cast. Yes the buffs are gone afterward but for the time being... it works.

How does he beat the Antimagic Field:

-By not letting it go off in the first place.. He is surprised so no chance

-By moving 10 feet away from the guy who cast it, then Teleporting. In a Bathtube when 3 people stand around you? and the one having it on himself has only just ONE job, keeping close to you!

-By pre-buffing with Aroden's Spellbane.
ROFLMAO, come on keep serious.
You cast that spell every morning on yourself? Ok your do it, but not everyone! I bet with you loads of people never heard of this spell before.
You are not expecting an attack, that is the idea behind it.

That's three off the top of my head.


To be fair - so far, the exact circumstances remain unanswered. We do not know whether the target expects attacks, or whether it is an accidental encounter or a band of prepped assassins. Both would change the scenario significantly, be it for fighter or wizard.


Darkheyr wrote:
Interesting spell. Certainly a must-have for wizards expecting assassins, though I wonder if its not too specific in practice.

No more specific than Spell Immunity, something I get good mileage out of at somewhat lower levels.

I'd say immunity to AMF alone is gold for any caster.


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So I lost the post so I'll just hit the highlights.

Archmage, 122 HP naked, does not have Silent spell so is vulnerable to the rock... until they pick it up (move) and throw it out a window or the open door (standard) and then use metamagic mastery to quickened teleport away. Or just cover it, silence is an emanation. Either way this one is actually vunerable to being hunted down, he's meant to be in a party.

Master Universalist, 132 HP naked, metamagic mastery silent teleport done. Mind Blank means you can't track them down to ambush them, Foresight means you can't ambush them. Look, you can't even find this one. You'll never ambush this one. They win.

Your contrived scenario fails against one of the two published wizard 20s when both have the worst possible builds for this situation (bonded item means constant concentration checks) with spell lists that look like they're chosen at random (universalist has mage armor twice, even though it lasts 20 hours) and neither has left any spell slots open to fill in later. Terrible builds, and yet one of them is absolutely immune to your suggested tactic. And the scenario only works on the archmage if he's in a small enclosed room with only one exit and no windows. If he's outdoors he just walks away and quickened teleport. If there's another exit to the room, even a window, he can just jump out (and eat the the 20d6 falling, max not enough to kill him) and quickened teleport.

Really, if you have to make up so much of the scenario to favor the party it really doesn't help. If your point was just "in the worst possible scenario against a terrible build a 10th level party might beat a wizard (as long as they have a lot of preplanning and buffing)"... well, and? A wizard that prepares nothing but magic missile in every slot will easily lose to any wizard that remembers to cast shield. That doesn't help us figure out how powerful naked people are.

Also, are you kidding with the antimagic field? 10 foot range, centered on the caster. So your wizard/sorcerer loses all of their powers and has to pit their 10+5+dex+distance stealth (assuming the wizard/sorc maxed it, along with all of the other party members) versus either the +15 of the archmage or the +18 of the universalist. That's 4 rolls and pretty good odds you fail on sneaking up on the wizard. You have to walk up because you've shut off your own magic and can't teleport in. Assuming you succeed then the wizard has to be in a tiny room, otherwise they can just move out of the antimagic field. I don't know about you but if I'm worth almost 9 tons of gold I'd splurge for the nice bath, spacious, fountains, the whole nine. It's exactly like the silence rock but you can't just cover it up or use silent spell and it's half as large. Pointless and still fails against one of the two casters in the best possible scenario you can create. The other wizard instead gets a chance to hear you coming and cast Time Stop and all those Delayed Blast Fireballs he seems to be saving up (Eschew Materials covers the material component).


Bob Bob Bob wrote:

So I lost the post so I'll just hit the highlights.

Archmage, 122 HP naked, does not have Silent spell so is vulnerable to the rock... until they pick it up (move) and throw it out a window or the open door (standard) and then use metamagic mastery to quickened teleport away. Or just cover it, silence is an emanation. Either way this one is actually vunerable to being hunted down, he's meant to be in a party.

Master Universalist, 132 HP naked, metamagic mastery silent teleport done. Mind Blank means you can't track them down to ambush them, Foresight means you can't ambush them. Look, you can't even find this one. You'll never ambush this one. They win.

Your contrived scenario fails against one of the two published wizard 20s when both have the worst possible builds for this situation (bonded item means constant concentration checks) with spell lists that look like they're chosen at random (universalist has mage armor twice, even though it lasts 20 hours) and neither has left any spell slots open to fill in later. Terrible builds, and yet one of them is absolutely immune to your suggested tactic. And the scenario only works on the archmage if he's in a small enclosed room with only one exit and no windows. If he's outdoors he just walks away and quickened teleport. If there's another exit to the room, even a window, he can just jump out (and eat the the 20d6 falling, max not enough to kill him) and quickened teleport.

Really, if you have to make up so much of the scenario to favor the party it really doesn't help. If your point was just "in the worst possible scenario against a terrible build a 10th level party might beat a wizard (as long as they have a lot of preplanning and buffing)"... well, and? A wizard that prepares nothing but magic missile in every slot will easily lose to any wizard that remembers to cast shield....

You are absolutly right in one thing. There are many ways to beat the sezenario. But enough to make it moot.

Ok you say emancipation.
Now please tell me how many rounds does a wizard survive with 132 hp if 2 people can beat him up? We have couple of optionions. Naked wizard. Grapple him and no matter what he does if the cleric stands next to him with the silent spell the rogue will just slice him to ribbons in no time!
Antimagic field... I wouldn´t do that. Hmmm We loose a level 10 wizards power to neutralize a level 20 wizard. Sorry if you do not seen the gain in this ... reroll your class.


Helikon wrote:

You are absolutly right in one thing. There are many ways to beat the sezenario. But enough to make it moot.

Ok you say emancipation.
Now please tell me how many rounds does a wizard survive with 132 hp if 2 people can beat him up? We have couple of optionions. Naked wizard. Grapple him and no matter what he does if the cleric stands next to him with the silent spell the rogue will just slice him to ribbons in no time!
Antimagic field... I wouldn´t do that. Hmmm We loose a level 10 wizards power to neutralize a level 20 wizard. Sorry if you do not seen the gain in this ... reroll your class.

Tell you what, I'll tell you how the wizard survives when you tell me how you get 2 people in range to beat them up. One wizard has foresight and is immune to the ambush, and Silent spell (and can apply it spontaneously) and can just ignore your Silence. The other can get a quickened teleport off anytime they can get out of range of Silence, now it matters where they're actually taking a bath. If it's big enough they can get 20 feet from the Silence spell they're gone. If they can get total cover from the Silence spell they're gone (in the bathtub for instance). If I'm allowed to alter anything I can swap something for Silent spell or add Mislead (S only) to their spells prepared and then even the archmage wins.

And the problem with anti-magic is that first, you lose your ability to teleport ambush and need to walk in to fight the wizard (and your whole party has to max stealth and even then the wizard probably hears you), second, all of your own magic stuff shuts off and you get weapons, armor, and... well, that's it, and third, it's only a 10 foot emanation. So either the wizard/sorc is in front of the party or the wizard/sorc is directly behind the fighter/rogue and the enemy wizard has to be in the square immediately after that or they can just teleport out and ignore you.


Anyone ever built a fighter that specced in unarmed combat? The 1D3 base damage doesn't mean much if you actually put all your feats into getting better at it...

The Crit feat tree can do some nasty stuff... Frankly, it amuses me that this thread is still going...

I'm gonna build a 20th level fighter DESIGNED to fight naked, will get back to you later!


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alexd1976 wrote:

Anyone ever built a fighter that specced in unarmed combat? The 1D3 base damage doesn't mean much if you actually put all your feats into getting better at it...

The Crit feat tree can do some nasty stuff... Frankly, it amuses me that this thread is still going...

I'm gonna build a 20th level fighter DESIGNED to fight naked, will get back to you later!

Don't forget Pummeling Style. And if you want hilarity, Snake Style and Hamatula Strike. Punch people so hard you get your fist stuck in them.

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