A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


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So let's do three versions: Real, ideal, and LIMBO! All of these assume pure nudity.

Fighter:
Real: Dies to the second save or die spell. (I'm an optimist!)
Ideal: Uses the ribbon she ties her hair with as a whip to disable the casters, then to pull her real sword out of a nearby tree where she hid it and kill the rest. Yes, I do wish fighters could ever be that useful.
How low: Level 1 party with an optimized save or die caster.

Barbarian:
Real: RAGE! Unless they can take him out in a surprise round he'll get to rage which will give him an obscene save bonus, a reroll, built in rage-cycling to refresh it, the ability to fly, a +20 on combat maneuvers, claws, really not sure what the 10th level party's play would be here.
Ideal: RAGE! 10th level party wets self, passes out, or flees. Oddly enough you can sort of do this with Intimidate, Indimidating Glare, and Terrifying Howl, but not nearly fast enough.
How low: Probably still a level 1, as long as they can beat initiative and get off a good enough save or die. More realistically level 3, once someone can cast invisibility.

Bard:
Real: Fascinate, Mass Suggestion, done.
Ideal: I can't actually top the real thing. Jiggle your assets, suggest maybe they don't want to risk attacking you, make sure you keep more of your gear with you when you go bathing next time.
How low: I don't honestly know. Level 10 might be a good point to try.

Cleric:
Real: Depends on what spells they have left. Whether they have some planar friends on hand. It doesn't end well.
Ideal: GO MY ANGEL SWARM!
How low: 17? I'm not sure I'd go in with anything less than 9th level spells. Still, saves are what to target.

Druid:
Real: If you're lucky she only has Wildshape instead of Shapechange. Either way you're hunting the sparrow in the sparrow swarm or fighting a giant elemental. The sparrow picks you off with spells and an obscene stealth, the giant elemental (or tiger, or dino, or whatever) just smashes.
Ideal: What's it take to change into a Kaiju? Because I would love to go Godzilla (I'm sorry, Mogaru) on people.
How low: Level 15? You either need the ability to find the sparrow caster or a good way to fight off a melee shapeshifter. Also the druid may still have all of her gear on if she's wildshaped.

Monk
Real: Well, at least he beats the fighter. And spell resistance is useful! Though the best course of action is Abundant Stepping away. Otherwise all it takes is a few SR:No spells and the result is the same as the fighter.
Ideal: Dimensional Dervish to reach and take out every party member one at time.
How low: Level 5? 7? Align weapon comes online at level 3 but you need enough attack to overcome a fairly decent naked AC and high enough DCs to overcome good saves (either damage or saves probably work here).

Paladin
Real: I actually just did this. Sanctify Armor "I dub this leaf sacred" Holy Sword "I dub thee Excalistick" proceed to kick ass. But seriously, Greater Angelic Aspect. Then maybe make Excalistick.
Ideal: Greater Angelic Aspect totally covers this. Make self into a angel, proceed to beat everyone.
How low: Level 15? Hitting doesn't mean much with Lay on Hands, you have to put out quite a bit of damage while not going down. Save or die doesn't do much against immunities and Cha to saves.

Ranger
Real: Hide in Plain Sight, cannot be tracked. How are you finding her again?
Ideal: No, I like the real. Good luck tracking her in her element.
How low: I don't honestly know. You need some way to locate her (locate creature, probably, but it's stopped by a lot and doesn't unstealth her). So you need enough perception to beat a naked ranger's stealth and enough magic to find them. That that's not including "Tiger that thinks humans are tasty". Could probably be done as low as 7, but I wouldn't count on it.

Rogue
Real: Like a fighter, but with less feats.
Ideal: Convinces the party he's a cheap hooker hired for some fun and he would really appreciate it if they could let him go. By the time he's long gone the party notices he stole everything of value that they owned.
How low: Level 1 save or die.

Sorcerer
Real: Depends on spells known, but "any" is enough for the win.
Ideal: Why, because they need even more powers? 9th level spells is plenty. Personally I'd love to seem some actual bloodline/capstone powers here. Turn into Cthulhu, elder fire elemental, summon werewolves, anything thematic would be nice.
How low: 17, same as the cleric. Same reason.

Wizard
Real: Like a sorcerer, but she knows they're coming (seriously, super high Int and divination spells).
Ideal: Wizard is actually Balor is actually a disguised Imp... surrounded by 9 invisible Balors.
How low: 17? I might not even risk it then.


Wasn't there something like 3.5's ring of arming added to PF?


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Psst, your golem needs Stunning Irruption.


wraithstrike wrote:


The math I did upthread disagrees. It might be easy or might be a lot closer to 50% than the fighter wants it to be. Even if the chance is 40% they drop if he tries to do it twice. Also there is no way to say if the fighter has archetypes of not, or which ones, not that I think it matters unless it is the one that lets you choose your feats every day.

edit: The fighter for my math was assuming a strength based rogue. If this is dex based rogue with less strength the fighter has a better chance of the damage from the AoO causing him to fail the disarm. Once again the strength rogue is showing why it should be played instead. Yeah yeah I know this thread is not about rogues.

As far as that tactic, it comes down to whether the rogue has Combat Reflexes and the fighter has a counter. Unless the rogue can make more than one AoO per round, there will be no damage to cause the disarm to fail. If the fighter has Lunge, there will be no AoOs. If the fighter has Improved Disarm, there will be no AoOs. It is very unlikely that a 10th level rogue of any build is going to be able to withstand a determined 20th level level fighter of most builds from being disarmed.


RJGrady wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


The math I did upthread disagrees. It might be easy or might be a lot closer to 50% than the fighter wants it to be. Even if the chance is 40% they drop if he tries to do it twice. Also there is no way to say if the fighter has archetypes of not, or which ones, not that I think it matters unless it is the one that lets you choose your feats every day.

edit: The fighter for my math was assuming a strength based rogue. If this is dex based rogue with less strength the fighter has a better chance of the damage from the AoO causing him to fail the disarm. Once again the strength rogue is showing why it should be played instead. Yeah yeah I know this thread is not about rogues.

As far as that tactic, it comes down to whether the rogue has Combat Reflexes and the fighter has a counter. Unless the rogue can make more than one AoO per round, there will be no damage to cause the disarm to fail. If the fighter has Lunge, there will be no AoOs. If the fighter has Improved Disarm, there will be no AoOs. It is very unlikely that a 10th level rogue of any build is going to be able to withstand a determined 20th level level fighter of most builds from being disarmed.

Improved Disarm requires combat expertise, widely shunned feat, and lunge while possible is not something that is heralded much either. It is not early on the fighter's list, and later on the enemies are likely to be larger or bigger so most people won't take it. If they are only medium then you just walk up to them and hit them since it does not provoke. You could use lunge against a medium creature, but that lowers your AC by 2 for no gain.

I am not saying it is impossible for these feats to be chosen, but it is not likely.

However if they are then I agree the fighter does not have much to worry about, and rogue is about to be empty handed, and he can do nothing about it.


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What should be taken from this post is that money is more of a factor in power than level is for non-casters. Ideally the idea is that a level 20 ____ is legendary, and so skilled that he takes on the greatest threats that mortals could think of, and some they could never imagine. However in reality his skill is much less of a factor than his loot, and while I like Pathfinder I don't like the loot doing the heavy lifting. Your item should be remembered for being owned by you, but in the PF universe you would not be remembered were it not for your items.

However with PF trying to capture aspects of various fantasy tropes, it is hard to do so without the current rules, so I understand. <gets tired of typing>


wraithstrike wrote:

Improved Disarm requires combat expertise, widely shunned feat, and lunge while possible is not something that is heralded much either. It is not early on the fighter's list, and later on the enemies are likely to be larger or bigger so most people won't take it. If they are only medium then you just walk up to them and hit them since it does not provoke. You could use lunge against a medium creature, but that lowers your AC by 2 for no gain.

I am not saying it is impossible for these feats to be chosen, but it is not likely.

We're talking about a level 20 Fighter here, so Lunge not being "early on the fighter's list" doesn't quite apply. A level 20 Fighter is tripping feats. Like so many you ran out of worthwhile things for your primary fighting style and maybe your secondary. Who knows what crap was thrown in after that to fill the slots. We're into Schrodinger's Fighter territory now, but I don't think seeing Lunge in there somewhere would be all that unlikely.


RJGrady wrote:
I don't really agree with that. Fighters are versatile (in combat). You get eleven bonus combat feats, and you can spend your other feats on pretty much anything you want. Your bonuses are so high you can often pull off maneuvers without having any specialized feats. If you are built for long-term play, you probably have one main set of tactics, which is overwhelmingly powerful when you can put it into play, and one or two other secondary sets, which can be an unpleasant surprise for someone expecting a one-trick pony. Just slapping Improved Unarmed Strike, one feat, on a fighter means you are never truly unarmed, and for all anyone knows, you could have weapon training bonuses with your unarmed attacks. Someone could learn the hard way that you are capable of sundering most weapons with your bare hands. Or Lunge. Lunge means never having to say you're sorry... or taking AoOs for performing maneuvers against most humanoid opponents.

Those 11 feats? Not really a that much of an advantage... Most combat feats are little more than a +1 to this or that... And many of them have at least one awful/useless prerequisite.

If a Fighter spends only half his feats in his main tactic, he'll be inferior to pretty much any other martial class at that tactic (save, perhaps, for Cavaliers... Which are awful in pretty .uch anything other than mounted combat). Fighters need those extra feata just to try and stay on par with other classes...

And without their gear, Fighter's bonus aren't very high either. Unlike Rage, Smite Evil, Favored Enemy and Studied Enemy, Weapon Training is weapon-specific... So are Weapon Focus/Specializatiob and things like Improved Critical.

The whole class encourages ultra-specialization even more than Pathfinder already does. Fighters aren't good at fighting, they are good at full attacking. Save for a few archetypes, the class is utterly incompetent to deal with anything that isn't AC. If combat were all about standing still and hitting an stationary sandbag, Fighters would be top tier... But combat tends to include far more than that (at least in the tables I played).


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Lizardfolk Mutation Warrior with claws, tail, bite attacks, shred them all to bits.


Lemmy wrote:


The whole class encourages ultra-specialization even more than Pathfinder already does. Fighters aren't good at fighting, they are good at full attacking.

Yeah, I think pretty much the opposite of this. A fighter has so many bonus feats, there should be a plan B, C, and D. An over-specialized fighter is not only boring, but probably not very effective.


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Hey now, don't lump the Barbarian in with the poor Fighter/Rogue/Monk. Rage and Rage Powers are super useful and address the save problem, the flight problem, and the magic problem.

Honestly, I think the biggest problem I found when I did the full class comparison is that everyone has a bad save which can be targeted with a save or die (or close enough) and a bad save is going to be terrible without the save uppers and the stat uppers. The only in-class save uppers are on the paladin, the barbarian, and spells (Iron Will is not a combat feat for some reason). A naked fighter/rogue will never have 20 Wis. A naked Cleric might have 20 Dex, but only for specific builds. Monk spell resistance would have been helpful if they would stop making SR: No spells (looking at you conjuration and orb of cold part deux). If we restricted party casters to blasting and buffs only then we might have a real contest but as long as "roll a d20, if it fails you die" is an option those without in-class defenses will always end up boned. As I said, even the barbarian falls to a level 1 if they're caught before raging (Headband of Havoc fixes that).


chaoseffect wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Improved Disarm requires combat expertise, widely shunned feat, and lunge while possible is not something that is heralded much either. It is not early on the fighter's list, and later on the enemies are likely to be larger or bigger so most people won't take it. If they are only medium then you just walk up to them and hit them since it does not provoke. You could use lunge against a medium creature, but that lowers your AC by 2 for no gain.

I am not saying it is impossible for these feats to be chosen, but it is not likely.

We're talking about a level 20 Fighter here, so Lunge not being "early on the fighter's list" doesn't quite apply. A level 20 Fighter is tripping feats. Like so many you ran out of worthwhile things for your primary fighting style and maybe your secondary. Who knows what crap was thrown in after that to fill the slots. We're into Schrodinger's Fighter territory now, but I don't think seeing Lunge in there somewhere would be all that unlikely.

I also listed why it may not be on the late list unless he is using a reach weapon. That changes things. However a lot of this just comes down to playstyle so I won't say it is 100% impossible, not that it really matters since he is still in a lot of trouble.

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:

Well... Honestly, there is no reason why a caster wouldn't have his spells prepared. Why would he even do anything in the morning before preparing spells?

Fighter might reach 20th level by being unbelievably tough. Rogues do it by being incredibly cunning, Paladins do it by being fiercely devout.

Wizards? Wizards do it by being extremely paranoid! At 20th level it is perfectly natural for a Wizard to (completely in character!) never leave his room before preparing his spells and then raising half a dozen magical protections around himself!

The old 3.0 joke (before Wizards nerfed those hour/level spell durations in 3.5) used to be all the extended 2nd level stat buff spells a Wizard would cast on himself while he was doing his hair and brushing his teeth.


wraithstrike wrote:
However a lot of this just comes down to playstyle so I won't say it is 100% impossible, not that it really matters since he is still in a lot of trouble.

True enough.


I am so confused.

Why oh why would a tenth level party attack a fighter together. Why wouldn't the martials take a day off and let the casters wreck the fighter (if the wizard blows all their level 4 and 5 slots on icy prison and charm monster fightey man is going down). Maybe the martials could come along with longbows and under fly effects.

The worst possible thing they could do is play rock-em-sock-em-robots with the guy who can do enormous damage, but only when they let him get within 5 feet of them.


RJGrady wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
The whole class encourages ultra-specialization even more than Pathfinder already does. Fighters aren't good at fighting, they are good at full attacking.
Yeah, I think pretty much the opposite of this. A fighter has so many bonus feats, there should be a plan B, C, and D. An over-specialized fighter is not only boring, but probably not very effective.

Too bad most anything a Fighter tries to do requires at least 2 feats just to avoid an AoO. And there is little incentive to invest in, say, unarmed combat since most feats and gear devoted to that combat styles have little to no synergy with armed combat.

Fighter fiercely encourage players to invest dozens of feat in the same combat style with the same weapon... Thanks to a multitude of weapon-specific feats and class features, as well as a number of awful prerequisites for different feats and unnecessarilly long feat chains.

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Isn't the level 20 fighter a Martial Master/Eldritch Guardian/Mutation Warrior? He uses martial flexibility to be able to fight unarmed and with improvised weapon around him, while using his familiar to turn medium size to punch his opponent to death, while he uses pummeling style and mutagen to be even stronger.

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Mark Thomas 66 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Title says it all. Lets assume he is naked (or at less without his weapon in hand). What are some good strategies for the fighter.

I'll do ya one better:

Suppose that while the Fighter20 is bathing, a Warrior1 with the same (starting) ability scores grabs all his gear and puts it on, then attacks the Fighter20. Now the Warrior only misses on a 1 (with his +5 keen falchion or whatever) and the Fighter only hits on a 20 (and provokes an AoO with each attack thanks to a lack of IUS).

What are the odds of the fighter actually winning the fight?

Disarm game over CMD doesn't change just because you pick up a sexy weapon.

Hey look, another person who didn't do the homework. :)


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Distant Scholar wrote:
Why would taking damage incur a penalty on the Disarm roll? I can't find that rule.
Performing a Combat Maneuver wrote:
Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.

That's what happens when one only looks under "Disarm" and not "Combat Maneuvers".

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See, I can tell this is supposed to be a "bash on the fighter" thread but I'm seeing it as a fun puzzle.

Obviously a lot depends on the exact situation - for example, if the bathroom is only big enough for one person to LOS the fighter at a time that changes things dramatically. Imagine a small bathroom with a hallway outside - only one person can see in at a time.

If the party sends only their casters the easy thing to do is hide in the water which breaks line of effect, unless the caster enters the water as well. And if the caster comes that close he is in grapple land.

Honestly the best bet to get a weapon is to use the Steal maneuver against a wizard or something - grab that normal dagger or crossbow that's been sitting unused on his character sheet since level one. 20th level fighter probably has close weapon group at +2 or so. It's the third one I'd take after my main weapon and a ranged attack. Wizard guy doesn't even get an AoO unless he has a weapon out, which is unlikely if he's rocking a metamagic rod.

In Jiggy's 1st level warrior example, if the fighter wins initiative he just takes back his weapon and kills the crap out of the guy(no AoO when flat footed, warrior 1 probably has Power Attack not Combat Reflexes). If the warrior wins initiative it's trickier - fighter probably has a decent chance just to punch the guy down(warrior AC likely 14 armor +1 dex +5 nat +5 defl = 35, warrior hp is 6+5 con = 11. Fighter 20 naked attacks at +20 BAB +2 close group +9 str = +31 to hit for 1d3+11 damage). So our F20 only needs to hit once and he's guaranteed a drop. He has a 3.5% chance to miss with all 4 attacks. No special tactics just face punching.

So here's a trickier version of this puzzle: Bob the archmage(wizard 20) is relaxing in his bath naked after the toughest adventuring day he's ever had - he has expended all his spell slots and even used all his per/day school abilities, and all his personal buffs are used up or dispelled. His gear is neatly piled in his room down the hall when he is jumped by our group of 10th levels. How does Bob survive the attack, using just his inherent ability bonuses, his at will abilities, and cantrips?

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JJ Jordan wrote:
He disarms a party member of their weapon (preferably a weapon he has training in) and then begins a total party kill.

Can he also disarm a shield for good measure

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If you've gotten to level 20 and don't have a plan for getting out of being jumped while nekkid, you deserve to die.

At that level you should have a custom bathtub stored in a portable hole with minor portals to the elemental plane of water and fire to have a nice hot bath that will teleport you and your gear to a safe spot given a command word if you're jumped.

Dark Archive

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My Hellknight Jendraza was recently in such a situation, though she's only level 10, jumped by 3 assassins while in the shower. She keeps her Greatsword by her at all times, however, so she and her other naked friends were able to fight them off Eastern Promises style.

Of course, she's a 42 year old Half-Orc with 300 lbs of muscle on her, so the 20 year old Sorceress came by after the fight to let me know that she hopes she dies before she gets to be my age. To which I responded, naked, pissed, and covered in blood, "This can be arraigned."


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Lemmy wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
The whole class encourages ultra-specialization even more than Pathfinder already does. Fighters aren't good at fighting, they are good at full attacking.
Yeah, I think pretty much the opposite of this. A fighter has so many bonus feats, there should be a plan B, C, and D. An over-specialized fighter is not only boring, but probably not very effective.

Too bad most anything a Fighter tries to do requires at least 2 feats just to avoid an AoO. And there is little incentive to invest in, say, unarmed combat since most feats and gear devoted to that combat styles have little to no synergy with armed combat.

Fighter fiercely encourage players to invest dozens of feat in the same combat style with the same weapon... Thanks to a multitude of weapon-specific feats and class features, as well as a number of awful prerequisites for different feats and unnecessarilly long feat chains.

Having played a figther to L16 (Jade Regent AP) -- gonna have to go with Grady. While you certainly can play a fighter who's sunk every single feat into hitting hard with a single weapon, unless he's an archer (which is crazy feat intensive but also crazy good at the killing) he's actually going to be a pretty lousy fighter.

I.e., General Meathead (the NPC codex L20 fighter who has EVERYTHING sunk into using a falchion) is going to lose in a round or two if he goes up against a fighter that bothered to take combat maneuver feats.

Being good at dealing HP damage isn't hard. If you've spent over half your feats on it, you've spent way too many.

Combat maneuver feats are inefficient to get good at, but a fighter actually CAN get good at them, and being good at them can be pretty damn entertaining.

(Aside: If a fighter's taking improved unarmed strike, it's not for the style feats; it's so he can get at the grapple feat line. Being good at the grapple line can be hilarious.)

@ Ryric - huh, never even thought to double check what the warrior's AC was, just assumed Jiggy had checked the math and knew what he was talking about when he said the unarmed fighter would only hit on a 20. Assuming 15 pt buy and no inherent bonuses, the fighter is probably only +26 (22 str) to hit (higher if close weapons is one of his weapon groups), but the guy wearing all his bling and using a 2handed weapon has.. a 37 to 40 AC tops (mithril full plate +5, +3 Dex, +5 ring, +5 amulet, may have odder AC items like that ioun stone)? Vs. a +26 or better (probably better - Close is a good weapons group to take) to punch him. So Jiggy's "only hits on a natural 20" was wrong to begin with. Okay then.


wraithstrike wrote:

What should be taken from this post is that money is more of a factor in power than level is for non-casters. Ideally the idea is that a level 20 ____ is legendary, and so skilled that he takes on the greatest threats that mortals could think of, and some they could never imagine. However in reality his skill is much less of a factor than his loot, and while I like Pathfinder I don't like the loot doing the heavy lifting. Your item should be remembered for being owned by you, but in the PF universe you would not be remembered were it not for your items.

However with PF trying to capture aspects of various fantasy tropes, it is hard to do so without the current rules, so I understand. <gets tired of typing>

Well, a lot of the current discussion isn't so about about money as not having any gear at all. The naked fighter would be lot better off with only normal 1st level gear. At least he wouldn't be eating AoO to try anything.

This also raised another thought for me. The fighter isn't taking his Belt off. Not even to bathe. You don't want those bonuses going back to temporary. Which does make me wonder about hygiene or even changing clothes. Are those belts made so you can take your pants off with them still on?


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The Human Diversion wrote:

If you've gotten to level 20 and don't have a plan for getting out of being jumped while nekkid, you deserve to die.

At that level you should have a custom bathtub stored in a portable hole with minor portals to the elemental plane of water and fire to have a nice hot bath that will teleport you and your gear to a safe spot given a command word if you're jumped.

You're missed the point of the thread.

The discussion is not abou "bashing" any class (it's just a sad reality that Fighters are so dependent on gear that they can easily be defeated by characters 10 levels below him if he happens to lose his stuff), nor is it about literally being assault during bath time.

The "X is taking a bath" line is just a funny way of saying "how gear-dependent is this classs?"


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thejeff wrote:
This also raised another thought for me. The fighter isn't taking his Belt off. Not even to bathe. You don't want those bonuses going back to temporary. Which does make me wonder about hygiene or even changing clothes. Are those belts made so you can take your pants off with them still on?

I kind of hand-waved this in my game by unofficially ruling that once you wore your stat booster for the required 24 hours, you still got the buff as long as your item was within 10 feet of you.

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Zhangar wrote:

Having played a figther to L16 (Jade Regent AP) -- gonna have to go with Grady. While you certainly can play a fighter who's sunk every single feat into hitting hard with a single weapon, unless he's an archer (which is crazy feat intensive but also crazy good at the killing) he's actually going to be a pretty lousy fighter.

I.e., General Meathead (the NPC codex L20 fighter who has EVERYTHING sunk into using a falchion) is going to lose in a round or two if he goes up against a fighter that bothered to take combat maneuver feats.

Being good at dealing HP damage isn't hard. If you've spent over half your feats on it, you've spent way too many.

Combat maneuver feats are inefficient to get good at, but a fighter actually CAN get good at them, and being good at them can be pretty damn entertaining.

(Aside: If a fighter's taking improved unarmed strike, it's not for the style feats; it's so he can get at the grapple feat line. Being good at the grapple line can be hilarious.)

I think that's something that gets overlooked - a fighter gets so many feats that you can't easily dismiss a feat selection because "he wouldn't have that." A non-archer fighter probably spends 5 or so feats on his favorite weapon, but he has 21 feats. That's a lot of room to take Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Improved and Greater maneuver feats, and so forth. Heck Lunge trivializes the 1st level warrior encounter all by itself by removing the warrior's AoOs.

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Lemmy wrote:
The Human Diversion wrote:

If you've gotten to level 20 and don't have a plan for getting out of being jumped while nekkid, you deserve to die.

At that level you should have a custom bathtub stored in a portable hole with minor portals to the elemental plane of water and fire to have a nice hot bath that will teleport you and your gear to a safe spot given a command word if you're jumped.

You're missed the point of the thread.

The discussion is not abou "bashing" any class (it's just a sad reality that Fighters are so dependent on gear that they can easily be defeated by characters 10 levels below him if he happens to lose his stuff), nor is it about literally being assault during bath time.

The "X is taking a bath" line is just a funny way of saying "how gear-dependent is this classs?"

I don't think I missed the point, I was just wanting to point out the awesome bathtub all of my high level characters will now commission.


All I can say is, I larped quite a bit and I did not even go to the shower without a small larp dagger. A fighter level 20 will for sure not leave his necklace and rings, why should he, we do not do so when we go swimming or to the sauna and if she is female she will have used a dagger or something like that to keep her hair up.
And btw, if he is a sword and board fighter he even has his prime weapon group close.
It is like can a group of level 20 take on lucifer, asmodeus whatever and win? Yes you can in a limbo. If not he will wipe the floor with you. But he won´t kill you. He will capture you and do the most horrible things he learned in eons of life to all the people you care about.
He is a being living since the beginning of time and has fought countless battles. He is wily, he is clever and he has forgotten more evil tricks than anyone player can learn.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Helikon wrote:
All I can say is, I larped quite a bit and I did not even go to the shower without a small larp dagger. A fighter level 20 will for sure not leave his necklace and rings, why should he, we do not do so when we go swimming or to the sauna and if she is female she will have used a dagger or something like that to keep her hair up.

I don't know; I think it depends on the circumstances. Taking a bath alone in a pond in the forest, yeah, better keep your weapons close. But if you're in your own keep where it's more secure and there are guards, then that's a potentially different story.


A very Charismatic Fighter could have access to Eldritch Heritage, which can open up a number of options for taking down the 10th level party.

Bonus points if he has Noble Scion (War), Battle Cry, and other feats to take advantage of his Charisma synergy.

In fact he can probably use a feat to qualify for Divine Protection and enjoy those paladin saves when naked.

If he Bluffs to create a diversion and is otherwise very stealthy, he can likely escape the party and then take them down predator-style.


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Xexyz wrote:
Helikon wrote:
All I can say is, I larped quite a bit and I did not even go to the shower without a small larp dagger. A fighter level 20 will for sure not leave his necklace and rings, why should he, we do not do so when we go swimming or to the sauna and if she is female she will have used a dagger or something like that to keep her hair up.
I don't know; I think it depends on the circumstances. Taking a bath alone in a pond in the forest, yeah, better keep your weapons close. But if you're in your own keep where it's more secure and there are guards, then that's a potentially different story.

Well he managed to reach level 20. So he likely made a few enemys and heard about teleportation tactics. In how many movies does the big bad or the big good got jumped in a shower, bath etc. just to draw a gun or another weapon. Why? In a world with potent enemys you never think you are safe! Or you die. Ask Caesar!

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Xexyz wrote:
Helikon wrote:
All I can say is, I larped quite a bit and I did not even go to the shower without a small larp dagger. A fighter level 20 will for sure not leave his necklace and rings, why should he, we do not do so when we go swimming or to the sauna and if she is female she will have used a dagger or something like that to keep her hair up.
I don't know; I think it depends on the circumstances. Taking a bath alone in a pond in the forest, yeah, better keep your weapons close. But if you're in your own keep where it's more secure and there are guards, then that's a potentially different story.

Even then - why would he take off his necklace/rings etc? I have a medic alert necklace - and I generally wear it in the shower. Far less important than a necklace of nat armor.

(Though - it's moot as this is just a thought experiment.)


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Helikon wrote:
Well he managed to reach level 20. So he likely made a few enemys and heard about teleportation tactics. In how many movies does the big bad or the big good got jumped in a shower, bath etc. just to draw a gun or another weapon. Why? In a world with potent enemys you never think you are safe! Or you die. Ask Caesar!

I don't know about you, but my characters tend to kill all of their enemies, else they wouldn't make it to high-level to begin with. -_o

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Even then - why would he take off his necklace/rings etc? I have a medic alert necklace - and I generally wear it in the shower. Far less important than a necklace of nat armor.

(Though - it's moot as this is just a thought experiment.)

Maybe he doesn't want to wear them in the bath? I know I take off my rings & necklace when I take a shower/bath. Even though this is just a thought experiment, this particular exchange of ours is interesting in that reveals how people think about their characters from a role-playing standpoint.


This could be a good scenario for a picky DM. okay no one wants to talk to your character becauseyyou've never said he's taken a shower... Okay he takes a shower what do you leave on?

Man that would take all the fun out of the game.

It's just interesting to envision a fighter/wizard/monster getting ambushed and how they would try and survive. Because really if you're taked with killing this huge foe,you are going to be sneaky, try and catch them asleep or with their pants down


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as a fellow dude with junk

that eastern promises scene had me completely terrified for the health of viggo mortenson's junk

although he gives you the goat like six times during that fight

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Xexyz wrote:
I don't know about you, but my characters tend to kill all of their enemies, else they wouldn't make it to high-level to begin with. -_o

Conversely, at 20th level many of your enemies have easy access to true resurrection just like you do.

Which honestly informs how this scenario would likely play out in a real game - party jumps fighter, kills him after brief struggle, fighter's 20th level divine friend brings him back, they get the band back together, 10th level party is jumped by 20th level party and pasted.

And sure, a scenario like this can demonstrate how gear dependent a class is, to an extent. But it's only one kind of gear dependence. Heck I consider wizards to be supremely gear dependent - I challenge someone to play a wizard without a spellbook or component pouch. You can spend one feat to get around the pouch but it takes a lot more work to never use a spellbook. Sure they don't need much more than that but the stuff they need they really, really need. A heck of a lot more than a fighter needs any one piece of his kit.

Dark Archive

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ryric wrote:
Which honestly informs how this scenario would likely play out in a real game - party jumps fighter, kills him after brief struggle, fighter's 20th level divine friend brings him back, they get the band back together, 10th level party is jumped by 20th level party and pasted.

Depending on the level 20 party's alignment, just scrying and frying them could be considered downright civil. You would not, for example, want to try this with any Kuthites >.<

Grand Lodge

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I wish Roger Zelazny was still alive so we could ask how Benedict handled his baths.


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Lemmy wrote:


If a Fighter spends only half his feats in his main tactic, he'll be inferior to pretty much any other martial class at that tactic (save, perhaps, for Cavaliers... Which are awful in pretty .uch anything other than mounted combat). Fighters need those extra feata just to try and stay on par with other classes...

First, yes, he'll be inferior. Every feat you sink into something else is one less feat. But the difference may not be meaningful. And every feat you sink into a specialized tactic you can't use in a given encounter is just so much wasted ink.

Second, who said anything about half his feats? You could spend 19 feats on being a really good greatsword fighter and still take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, meaning that your greatsword fighter is a very decent archer besides. But how many feats do you think you really need to be sickeningly competent at something? Using five feats on just mounted charging is only a fourth of your feats, but makes you a better charger than almost any other character in the game.

Quote:


The whole class encourages ultra-specialization even more than Pathfinder already does.

No, it doesn't. *Some people who play Pathfinder* and like to built extremely baroque tactical characters encourage that. But the game itself doesn't encourage anything, it's a book. And as far as building toward what will actually help you in a game, I think the opposite is true. Doing 500 damage on a charge instead of 250 is very rarely as useful as, say, being able to Quick Draw when the tactical situation changes, fighting as a secondary archer, or gaining an entirely new set of options. Catch Off-Guard, for instance, allows you to grab an improvised weapon and thrash a high-Dex character like a rogue mercilessly as soon as you disarm them.

If a fighter chooses large blades as his primary weapon training, he can still choose close weapons or bows as his next choice. And it will go up, at nearly the same rate as his first choice.

A well-built Fig 20 is dangerously versatile. A 20th level fighter who spends 75% of his feats on a very specialized tactic is brittle and vulnerable.

It's remarkable to me that some people will quip that real wizards don't focus to damage, then with the next breath say the opposite about a fighter. There is a balance of options. Doing big damage is not always the best thing a fighter can do.


I'm not saying it's impossible to have avoid ultra specialization with Fighters... Only that that is what the class' mechanics encourage. Even more so than most (if not all) other classes.


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ryric wrote:
Conversely, at 20th level many of your enemies have easy access to true resurrection just like you do.

That's the funny thing about coming back to the dead; it's parabolic. At low levels it's not really on the table because of wealth and access to 5th level spells. Then once you hit mid-levels it's online and pretty simple, if potentially expensive. But then once you get to high levels it gets shut down permanently by smart characters who - aware that their high-level enemies may have access to resurrection magic - utilize trap the soul and soul bind to make sure their most dangerous enemies stay dead.

So to bring it back to the matter at hand, the 20th level fighter kills his high-level enemies then has his wizard/sorcerer buddy soul bind them to prevent them from coming back. He then takes the 10/25 thousand gp diamond that his enemies were going to use to raise their friend to defray the cost of the 13-20 gp black sapphire needed for the soul bind.


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Lemmy wrote:
I'm not saying it's impossible to have avoid ultra specialization with Fighters... Only that that is what the class' mechanics encourage. Even more so than most (if not all) other classes.

I'd say it's not specifically the fighter class that encourages ultra-specialization so much as it's the D&D party paradigm that encourages it. The fighter has enough feats to excel at a chosen form of combat and have some left over to improve upon those areas in which he's weak. The thing is, because of the group party model, it's usually a waste to do so because even if the fighter bolsters those other areas someone else in the party can do it better.


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I think it is not bashing the fighter, it is bashing the game designers who knew about the fighter's problems for 10 years and did nothing to fix it when they had the opportunity to :(


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:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

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Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.

Scarab Sages

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ryric wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.

It exists in Pathfinder.


Man, this is why, like all of my magic items are just gonna be invisible magic tattoos (with mundane but superior invisible ink) from now on, all with hidden auras, sentience (special purpose: keep this guy alive) and the ability to counter-spell (via dispel magic anything that might try to erase them. :)


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Alternative thread idea: 20th level wizard's tent is destroyed and he is unable to prepare new spells. Wizard runs into 10th level adventuring party. How does he survive?

A bit unfair, I know, but I couldn't resist. ;)

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