A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Alternative thread idea: 20th level wizard's tent is destroyed and he is unable to prepare new spells. Wizard runs into 10th level adventuring party. How does he survive?

A bit unfair, I know, but I couldn't resist. ;)

Using the spells he has prepared, he fries them all, teleports away, summons in monsters, and generally does whatever the hell he wants.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
ryric wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.
It exists in Pathfinder.

Hmm, now if only they had the armor version as well...


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Ah, so this is one of those morphing wizards who has freedom to nova right until it's inconvenient to him—then it's, "Oh, of course I saved some high-level spells for tonight. What kind of idiot would use all his spells during the day? It's not like I can rely on only having to deal with four encounters a day or anything." A fairer "unfair scenario" would be if I also took away his spell components pouch, of course. :P

Look, I agree wizards have a huge advantage and I was just having some fun, but sometimes the "wizards are OP" arguments get a bit ridiculous. :P


I am surprised how rarely Improvised weapons are mentioned in this thread.

Anyway, I'm not sure a 20th level bog-standard fighter even wins WITH all his gear against a 10th level full party.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Ah, so this is one of those morphing wizards who has freedom to nova right until it's inconvenient to him—then it's, "Oh, of course I saved some high-level spells for tonight. What kind of idiot would use all his spells during the day? It's not like I can rely on only having to deal with four encounters a day or anything."

Look, I agree wizards have a huge advantage and I was just having some fun, but sometimes the "wizards are OP" arguments get a bit ridiculous. :P

I would just find it odd that the Wizard has managed to spend all of his spells. High level slots, sure? But one 5th level slot for Teleport or 4th level slot for Dimension Door? I'd find it more odd to have spent all of these at 20th by the end of one day.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Considering The Waking Rune has a party of 7th-11th level characters go up against a Runelord, and people survive to tell the tale, I'd say the invincibility of high level characters versus full parties of lower level characters is highly dependent on player skill.


It depends on what spells he thought to prepare. But a tenth-level party has fifth-level spells, too, and the action economy's on their side. Plus, at least one of them is going to win initiative and put himself in a position to disrupt (readied action + Vital Strike is a nice trick, for instance!).

Any class is destroyed in an unfair scenario. The difference is just that fighters are more vulnerable to unfair scenarios. And the entire world is an unfair scenario for them, but I digress.


Krune also got set to paper, so he ceased to be a Schrodinger's Wizard.


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One of these days I want to compile all the "wizards vs. fighters" threads and list all the spells your standard Wizard has prepared at any given time, as informed by the Paizo forums.


Xexyz wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I'm not saying it's impossible to have avoid ultra specialization with Fighters... Only that that is what the class' mechanics encourage. Even more so than most (if not all) other classes.
I'd say it's not specifically the fighter class that encourages ultra-specialization so much as it's the D&D party paradigm that encourages it.

True. That's why I added the "Even more so than most (if not all) other classes" line.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
One of these days I want to compile all the "wizards vs. fighters" threads and list all the spells your standard Wizard has prepared at any given time, as informed by the Paizo forums.

It's only fair if you compile all the feats, archetypes and races Fighters have at any given time, as informed by Paizo forums...

Say what you will about Schrodinger's Wizards... They are still far more plausible than any of the Schrodinger's Fighters we see in these discussion. It's unlikely, but at least theoretically possible for a Wizard to have all the right spells prepared (specially when we take divination in consideration!). No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.


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Lemmy wrote:
No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.

Martial Master Archetype. Check that capstone.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
One of these days I want to compile all the "wizards vs. fighters" threads and list all the spells your standard Wizard has prepared at any given time, as informed by the Paizo forums.

I think Aelryinth started doing that at one point.

Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.
Martial Master Archetype. Check that capstone.

Much like the wizard's bonded item ability to cast any spell, it is a limited use ability. Edit: Looking it up, it DOES have a sizable number of uses however.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
ryric wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.
It exists in Pathfinder.
Hmm, now if only they had the armor version as well...

They do.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.
Martial Master Archetype. Check that capstone.

Can eh change his race, attributes and/or archetypes too? I'm guessing not...

(Also, notice that the number of feats he can select is still limited by his uses of that ability, since each individual feat counts as a separate use of said ability).


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Lots of variables in the scenario.

The fighter variable - If he fighter is a niche build that uses a lot of combat maneuvers or even improved unarmed strike feat (just in case you have to escape imprisonment); the fighter can be a contender. If the fighter niche build revolves around gear or specific weapons, the intruders have a good chance of success.

The intruders - If the intruders are fully prepared, buffed, and informed as to what to expect, then it is likely game over for the fighter (or at lest a challenge for the lone fighter). If the intruders happened upon the fighter with only "standard precautions" (say, sneaking into an enemy fortress and surprises bathing fighter as they explored the fortress quietly); the intruders have the upper hand in action economy, yet might lose a party member or two.

Combined variables - A pseudo-monk fighter is the strongest contender to win against an ill-prepared scouting intrusion party. Any other combination favors the intruders as the bathing fighter can't compete against the intruder's action economy. A prepared intrusion party would easily win against a gear-oriented bathing fighter (what do you mean they lead the attack with buffed, invisible summons while silenced?).


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Imbicatus wrote:
It exists in Pathfinder.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hmm, now if only they had the armor version as well...
Wow Such Doge wrote:
They do.

Fixed link, maybe?

(The original one kept getting confused for me for some reason, if it works for you, ignore this, it's the same thing.)

EDIT: very slightly, and only for better-looking formatting; also, glad to help, TOZ! :)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

That fixed it TL. Looks like I know what my next heavy armor character will be buying.

Liberty's Edge

The OP's question is just a hair's-width this side of meaningless. There is no "20th level fighter." There's only specific builds. Having basically no class features means you can't really say anything about what a 20th level fighter looks like in a vacuum. Some 20th level fighters would handle it just fine. Some would get murdered horribly. Some would have remarkably high survival odds, but only if they ran away - but would be able to do so reliably. It depends completely on the build.


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Lemmy wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.
Martial Master Archetype. Check that capstone.

Can eh change his race, attributes and/or archetypes too? I'm guessing not...

(Also, notice that the number of feats he can select is still limited by his uses of that ability, since each individual feat counts as a separate use of said ability).

13 feats selectable on the fly isn't enough?

Picture this;

Aasamar fighter. Angel Wings. Flyby Attack. Wingover. Improved Iron Will. Power Attack. Combat Expertise. Improved Unarmed Strike. Improved Critical Unarmed Strike. Combat Reflexes.

Those feats are prerequisites for almost all the really good Combat and Style feats in the game. Whatever comes along, this fighter can adapt.

For other base feats, try: Blinding Critical. Stunning Critical. Critical Mastery. Lunge. Disruptive. Spell breaker.

These are just the non-martial flexibility feats to establish a baseline. By my count there's still a few left to pick.

Imagine what this character could do to adapt to an ambush:

Disarm, immediately pick up Improved Critical with whatever they grabbed, and then start ruining people.

Or, if other people's gear is also off limits for this thought exercise, he can pick up Snake Fang, Pummeling Charge and Style Mastery and fly around punching people to death.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.
Martial Master Archetype. Check that capstone.

Can eh change his race, attributes and/or archetypes too? I'm guessing not...

(Also, notice that the number of feats he can select is still limited by his uses of that ability, since each individual feat counts as a separate use of said ability).

13 feats selectable on the fly isn't enough?

To cover all the Schrodinger Fighters seen in these boards? Not even close!

(And using 13 of them will spend all your daily uses of that ability).

I'm not saying it's a bad archetype, quite the contrary... Just that there are just as many Schrodinger Fighters as Schrodinger Wizards in these boards, and they are just as shameless... If not more so (Actually, they are far more shameless,s since they had their omni-builds years before the ACG came around).


Imbicatus wrote:
ryric wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.
It exists in Pathfinder.

Pretty sure that special ability is a waste of ink, as you can't wield something that's not in your hands. The designers have stated that wielding requires you to attack with the tool in question to be considered wielding.


Trogdar wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
ryric wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.
It exists in Pathfinder.
Pretty sure that special ability is a waste of ink, as you can't wield something that's not in your hands. The designers have stated that wielding requires you to attack with the tool in question to be considered wielding.

What is that supposed to mean? You call the weapon, it teleports to your hand, now you're wielding it.


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20th level wizard who lost all his spells and spellbook is pretty hurtin', but he has decent skills that may prove pretty useful. I mean, what skills did he pick? If he maxed diplomacy or stealth he can fast-talk or sneak past most CR 10 threats.

Additionally, chances ARE pretty good he took spell mastery by level 20, if only because he ran out of things he actually wanted to put feats into.

20th level fighter against 10th level party? Chances are good he fails his will save and ends up getting everything back, but is also working for one of the party casters now. I mean I bet he could do damage with thrown/wielded river-rocks, but he's still an unarmed man against a gang with guns.


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Trogdar wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
ryric wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

:D

10 Demerits for no one mentioning some 145 posts into the thread the Called ability enhancement which could quite radically change the scenario. Be assured that even if it were not my preferred ultimate weapon of doom my 20 level melee type is almost certainly going to have at least one weapon and one suit of armor with the enhancement stashed away for just such an occurrence. I really truly am a utter meathead if in fact that gear is more than 100 ft away when I'm 'naked' or otherwise not properly geared up.

I thought of that but I'm not sure that exists in Pathfinder.
It exists in Pathfinder.
Pretty sure that special ability is a waste of ink, as you can't wield something that's not in your hands. The designers have stated that wielding requires you to attack with the tool in question to be considered wielding.

If your reading of the RAW text means that it actually has no effect at all, your reading is probably wrong.

Alternately it's possible the feat needs errata (Prone Shooter). That's not the case here.
The feat is obviously intended to work as advertised.


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Trogdar wrote:
Pretty sure that special ability is a waste of ink, as you can't wield something that's not in your hands. The designers have stated that wielding requires you to attack with the tool in question to be considered wielding.

The designers have stated a number of things about wielding weapons... Many of which are contradictory and/or nonsensical.

All we know for a fact is that they really don't want to give a definitive answer for what is considered "wielding an weapon".


yeah, pretty weird, but it says the wielder can call it, but you need to be holding it with the ability to use it to be considered the wielder.... Also, I agree completely Lemmy.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Wielder has been defined for Defender to 'be actively using', not just holding.

Thus, you can't Defender AC bonuses just having a sword in your end, you must be actively using it, i.e. have attacked with it.

Meh.

It's similar to how you don't actually get the AC bonus from Defensive Fighting until you attack something. Standing there and parrying stuff doesn't qualify.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, spending 1 of 21 feats on any one of Lunge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off-Guard, or Two-Weapon Fighting is a Schroedinger's Fighter? Wow. I guess I was reaching more than I thought.

Okay, so let's just assume going forward that the Fighter is proficient with ten exotic weapons and takes Weapon Focus eleven times. That's a fair comparison, right?


I fail to see how any ONE of those save IUS and Catch-Off Guard (the rarer of the four) makes a difference in this fight.


RJGrady wrote:

So, spending 1 of 21 feats on any one of Lunge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Catch Off-Guard, or Two-Weapon Fighting is a Schroedinger's Fighter? Wow. I guess I was reaching more than I thought.

Okay, so let's just assume going forward that the Fighter is proficient with ten exotic weapons and takes Weapon Focus eleven times. That's a fair comparison, right?

Thats perhaps a touch hyperbolic. I think that the fighter is still pretty much boned with all of the feats you mentioned due to action economy and poor saving throws. The elephant in the room is clearly the arcane and divine full caster that just ruins your day, you get a shot at taking one of them out. Not a fantastic shot, but its there.


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I don't know about all of your Fighters, but my 20th level Fighter is going to cast Dominate Person or Confusion before worrying about anything else.

Magical Tail for the win! (The main reason I'd play a Fighter is for the bonus feats to make it feasible.)


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QuidEst wrote:

I don't know about all of your Fighters, but my 20th level Fighter is going to cast Dominate Person or Confusion before worrying about anything else.

Magical Tail for the win! (The main reason I'd play a Fighter is for the bonus feats to make it feasible.)

This plus Quicken Spell Like Ability and Ability Focus.

/thread

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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If a party of low level enemies ambushes a bathing 20th level fighter, low level ambushers are screwed and incredibly stupid for even thinking about doing this. Why? Because the fighter has something more powerful than any individual class feature or magical weapon: friends. Powerful friends. No character reaches 20th level without accumulating several lifetimes of allies and accomplishing deeds to the awe of thousands of people. Several kingdoms owe him.

Even if you're a low level and kill the 20th level fighter, you're more than a dead man. That fighter has countless wealth stored elsewhere and a party of friends just (if not more) powerful than him. That fighter has entire kingdoms and powerful outsiders that owe a debt to him. If a mythic character, gods would owes him a favor or two. If you kill that fighter or take his stuff, his allies will find you. A slow, agonizing death is a merciful fate compared to what that fighter and his allies can do to you.

Because this is the heart of D&D. Your growth in power is not merely the numbers on your sheet, but the allies and experiences you accumulated in getting there.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Cyrad wrote:
Because the fighter has something more powerful than any individual class feature or magical weapon: friends.

FRIENDS!


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Cyrad wrote:


Even if you're a low level and kill the 20th level fighter, you're more than a dead man. That fighter has countless wealth stored elsewhere and a party of friends just (if not more) powerful than him. That fighter has entire kingdoms and powerful outsiders that owe a debt to him. If a mythic character, gods would owes him a favor or two. If you kill that fighter or take his stuff, his allies will find you. A slow, agonizing death is a merciful fate compared to what that fighter and his allies can do to you.

I'll grant you friends, and a bit of wealth (enough to get True resurrected in a pinch at least), but "countless wealth" is stored in the shit he doesn't have on him, and there's zero guarantee anybody owes him anything. Especially as a FIGHTER.

Liberty's Edge

Well a lvl20 character made it their For a reason I wouldn't be surprised if he bathed with a ring of armor and his primary weapon had returning or defender cause what I would do is have my weapon made of a light weight but durable material and have a rung of mage hand and when I get ambushed mage hand my trusty and heavily enchanted weapon to me and the fight is on
.


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Lemmy wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.
Martial Master Archetype. Check that capstone.

Can eh change his race, attributes and/or archetypes too? I'm guessing not...

(Also, notice that the number of feats he can select is still limited by his uses of that ability, since each individual feat counts as a separate use of said ability).

13 feats selectable on the fly isn't enough?

To cover all the Schrodinger Fighters seen in these boards? Not even close!

(And using 13 of them will spend all your daily uses of that ability).

You're missing that the Martial Master really is Schrodinger Fighter.

Schrodinger's Wizard is based on what a wizard could do in theory, and what the wizard might have prepared.

The Martial Master really can have any feat combination you can think of, whenever they want. The entire combat feat list becomes their toolbox.

If someone were to tell you to build a 20th level Martial Master Fighter, and then showed you the party of 10th level ambushers, do you think that 13 more feats, chosen after you know what you're fighting, wouldn't be enough to wipe the floor with them?


any fighter that's survived to level 20 is unlikely to be caught naked in the bath without at least a weapon within reach.

But even if it did happen there is no reason why the level 20 fighter isn't also benefiting from long duration magical buffs. First off high level characters probably never take off headbands or belts because the drawbacks to having only temporary ability score bonuses can be significant.

if the fighter is traveling with the classic four (wizard, cleric, rogue), then at level 20 he's likely to have some of the following:

mindblank, delay poison, some permanent polymorph any object effect, wind walk, permanent magic fang greater, permanent telepathic bond, water breathing, dark vision, protection from arrows, nine lives, astral projection.

A canny fighter would have some ranks in use magic device as to also benefit from permanent arcane sight, tongues, and see invisibility. Even without spellcraft or knowledge arcana just seeing magical auras would be hugely beneficial. In a pinch the fighter could likely rent the appropriate key ring, likely keyed to permanency.

Still, an unequipped fighter is underwhelming and probably can't even flee very effectively depending on skill point allocation. Ideally a level 20 fighter would be deadly in nearly any scenario with tons of extraordinary immunities and resistances. If only fighters had some mechanical boon like breaking action economy or smattering of (Ex) powers that help keep them viable at high levels.


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@ Cyrad - if the fighter in question is mythic, then this goes from a foregone conclusion to potentionally something outright insane.

I mean, it's actually pretty reasonable for a stark naked mythic fighter to be vital strike punching someone for... 4d3+116? Or higher?

"Uh, hey, did you just see that? Please tell me I'm hallucinating."

"I saw the target just leap a hundred feet into the air and tear out Franz's rib cage with his bare hands. No, you're not hallucinating."

"Well, balls."

"Yep."


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
I fail to see how any ONE of those save IUS and Catch-Off Guard (the rarer of the four) makes a difference in this fight.

Well, we covered that up thread. The thing about Schroedinger's Wizard is that they always happen to have a certain set of spells conveniently prepared.

But apparently you're a Schroedinger's Fighter if, at 20th level, you have any one or two of a list that seemingly consists of half the core feats. It's one thing to say the Fighter is not necessarily going to have optimal choices. It's quite another to say the Fighter does have IUS or Lunge or Catch Off-Guard, and is not a two-weapon field, and did not invest in Improved Disarm, is not an archetype that grants unarmed options, has no SLAs gained from unusual feat choices, ... I'm actually wondering how many 20th level fighters found in the wild does not have at least ONE characteristic along these lines.

Are we really supposed to assume a 20th level fighter has no contingencies at all? Is the only naked fighter permissible for this thought experiment a greatsword-wielding DPS-build with a composite bow as backup, and in this case has no bow? Are we sure he's definitely not a Power Attacking half-orc who has a bite attack?

Isn't that a little like assuming the average wizard is an evocation specialist who focuses on damage output and has mirror image and dimension door, only, as contingencies?

I'm not positing a massively versatile fighter (although that option exists and has been mentioned above), just the idea that a well-built fighter, at that level, should have something more going for it than, "Welp, I guess I'll take another critical feat." Even with the cultural pressure toward specialization within the group, I just can't imagine purposefully building a fighter with such vulnerabilities. If you build your fighter around the greatsword, what is your plan B when a frost giant sunders it? Is beating on a regenerating monster really a better plan than performing a dirty trick maneuver to blind it?


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Lemmy wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
No Fighter can have all builds at the same time.
Martial Master Archetype. Check that capstone.

Can eh change his race, attributes and/or archetypes too? I'm guessing not...

(Also, notice that the number of feats he can select is still limited by his uses of that ability, since each individual feat counts as a separate use of said ability).

13 feats selectable on the fly isn't enough?
To cover all the Schrodinger Fighters seen in these boards? Not even close!

He doesn't need to cover all of them. Just the one he needs for the given scenario. That's why it's called Schrodinger's Fighter and not just the Omnifighter. The funny thing is that this is a literal mighty morphing power fighter, while my comment about "morphing" wizards was just a joke. He can actually change his build to suit the occasion. He really is kinda Schrodinger's Fighter.

boring7 wrote:
20th level wizard who lost all his spells and spellbook is pretty hurtin', but he has decent skills that may prove pretty useful. I mean, what skills did he pick? If he maxed diplomacy or stealth he can fast-talk or sneak past most CR 10 threats.

If he maxed Stealth, he has a +20.

Most 7th-level parties will have a guy who can touch that, and it's four rolls against one. Perception is the point tax, remember? Besides which, are we really changing the rules? He can't use Stealth if he's observed, so I guess the wizard/fighter in these scenarios gets the jump on his "surprise guests"? It makes a difference. Gives the fighter a chance to go back and get his gear. ;D

Quote:

Additionally, chances ARE pretty good he took spell mastery by level 20, if only because he ran out of things he actually wanted to put feats into.

20th level fighter against 10th level party? Chances are good he fails his will save and ends up getting everything back, but is also working for one of the party casters now. I mean I bet he could do damage with thrown/wielded river-rocks, but he's still an unarmed man against a gang with guns.

Right, because fighters are crazy feat-starved and won't have had cause to grab some sort of "versatility" feat by now. Unlike wizards.

I'm not saying wizards are exactly feat-starved, but they need about as many as they get, same as the fighter.

Rynjin wrote:
I'll grant you friends, and a bit of wealth (enough to get True resurrected in a pinch at least), but "countless wealth" is stored in the s$#+ he doesn't have on him, and there's zero guarantee anybody owes him anything. Especially as a FIGHTER.

I dunno, I think a 20th level mage is way more likely to have enemies. If only because the party fighter is sick of his trashtalking by now.

Bob (Fighter): "Oh, yeah. We better resurrect that guy who keeps insulting me with 'hypothetical' scenarios where I get ambushed naked—which, by the way, kinda workplace harassment, but whatever. Yeah. Let's bring him back. I'll get right on that, as soon as I've consulted with my financial adviser. Tim?"
Tim (Rogue): "Hey, check it out! When I stab the corpse here, it jerks around! Man, it's like he never even left."

I should just start dropping in on high-level games, ask to see the wizard's character sheet, and inspect his spells prepared. Then I scream at him, shove the list of "Required Spells" in his face, and storm out muttering about how poorly he will fare when caught on the crapper by a gang of earth elementals/caught naked in a forest populated by Catch Off-Guarding fighters/caught plummeting to his doom while gagged and tied up.


Zhangar wrote:
Krune also got set to paper, so he ceased to be a Schrodinger's Wizard.

Soz, you can't use this insult any more. When the call came for wizards to be built they were built, when the call came for fighters there were none :(


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A level 1 fighter sneaks into the bathhouse, dons the level 20 fighter's gear and drinks all his potions:

Spoiler:
Rotten Thief!
Human fighter 1
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +3

AC 36, touch 19, flat-footed 32 (+4 Dex, +5 deflection, +12 armor, +5 natural)
hp 16 (1d10+3 plus 3 toughness)
Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +11

Speed 20 ft., fly 40 ft. (good)
Melee +3 unholy cold iron falchion +11 (2d4+13/18-20 plus 2d6 unholy) or
masterwork alchemical silver falchion +9 (2d4+9/18-20) or
masterwork light pick +10 (1d4+5/x4)
Ranged +1 shock composite longbow (+8 Str) +7 (1d8+6/x3 plus 1d6)

Str 21, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +9; CMD 25
Feats Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness
Skills … Fly +10
…… Heal +5
…… Perception +5
…… Survival +8
Languages Common
Combat Gear potions of cure serious wounds (2); Gear +1 full plate, +1 shock composite longbow (+8 Str) with 50 arrows, +1 unholy cold iron falchion, masterwork alchemical silver falchion, masterwork light pick, belt of physical might +4 (Str, Dex), clear spindle ioun stone, cloak of resistance +5, pale green prism ioun stone, winged boots, 2,788 gp
Consumables (Used) oil of greater magic weapon (CL 12th), oil of magic vestment (CL 12th), potion of barkskin (CL 12th), potion of bear’s endurance, potion of heroism, potion of shield of faith (CL 18th)


Thanis Kartaleon wrote:

A level 1 fighter sneaks into the bathhouse, dons the level 20 fighter's gear and drinks all his potions:

** spoiler omitted **

The standard level 20 Fighter has a WBL of 880,000 gold. Did this naked one spend most of his on ale and wenches or something? I see this guy sitting at about 174,000 not including consumables.


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Man feats... Feats are great aren't they? I almost forget I have them there so useful. I mean, who wouldn't trade out nine levels of casting for more feats. Am I right guys! Huh!?

... no?


The 20th level Wizard is fine, because he probably prepared Shapechange and can thus promptly turn into a dragon and eat everyone or fly away. If things go south he can turn into an Earth Elemental as a Free action and Earthglide away or something.

Seriously why would any caster not have Shapechange if they could? It's so cool.


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Rynjin wrote:
The 20th level Wizard is fine, because he probably prepared Shapechange and can thus promptly turn into a dragon and eat everyone or fly away. If things go south he can turn into an Earth Elemental as a Free action and Earthglide away or something.

Or he has Eschew Materials, or even better, False Focus with holy symbol tattoos. He rocks your face in without ever getting out of the tub.

Scarab Sages

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I can't help but point out...

Don't drop the soap! Literally don't drop it or your towel, use them as improvised weapons, take the -4 penalty. It should be truly rare that you find yourself completely able to attempt to physically defend yourself.

That being said, as has been mentioned, the 20th Level fighter is probably hosed without his gear due to poor will saves.


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Rynjin wrote:
Seriously why would any caster not have Shapechange if they could? It's so cool.

Pretty much this. Nothing's more agonizing than hitting 17/18 and having to pick between Shapechange, Mage's Disjunction, and Time Stop.

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