A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Door opens.
Quickrunners shirt move action.
Eidolon pounce. At level 10 it will probably eat the naked wizard without problems by itself 5x +15 5x 1d8+18+2d6 + 1d8+24+1d6
Pouncing animal companion dire tiger.
Pouncing barbarian.
Do I need to continue? 4 simple ways to reach him in the first round and having a full attack


Emergency Force Sphere.

Good luck chewing through it, it may take a while.


Rynjin wrote:
Darkheyr wrote:
Interesting spell. Certainly a must-have for wizards expecting assassins, though I wonder if its not too specific in practice.

No more specific than Spell Immunity, something I get good mileage out of at somewhat lower levels.

I'd say immunity to AMF alone is gold for any caster.

Oh, definitly. I was more refering to a) the fact that in-character you might have to deal with a far wider selection of spells than what you expect your attackers to have depending on setting, and b) that leaving it this specific might actually give would-be assassins something to explicitly plan around, once those preparations are known.

It's a fine spell either case, for such things as AMF, Dimensional Anchor and similar things alone. After all, I was able to make very good use of reflecting targetted Greater Dispel Magic too, and that's far more specific. I'd totally take it if my presently-played wizard was in Pathfinder. Maybe I need to see about porting it to NWN... :)

@Bob and Helikon:
Honestly, if we are explicitly talking about well-prepared assassins, they will have the surprise round. If not, their preparation sucked.

And a prepared level 10 party might very well be capable of putting out the DPR necessary to flatten a naked wizard in a surprise round. Depends on party make-up. If they don't, they'll likely try to design their attacks around the known capabilities of the wizard in question. Spell Immunity from a cleric, Dimensional Anchor on the target wizard, and so on.

If they did their job right, it's a very, very dangerous situation for the target wizard. Just like with a fighter.

Now, if it's an accidental encounter... Good luck! :D


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Helikon wrote:

Door opens.

Quickrunners shirt move action.
Eidolon pounce. At level 10 it will probably eat the naked wizard without problems by itself 5x +15 5x 1d8+18+2d6 + 1d8+24+1d6
Pouncing animal companion dire tiger.
Pouncing barbarian.
Do I need to continue? 4 simple ways to reach him in the first round and having a full attack

Door opens, surprise round starts. So standard or move action on the part of the defenders, though theoretically the Barbarian and Eidolon could still charge and pounce if they were staggered... partial charge rules are weird like that. If the Wizard was a Diviner he would also act in the surprise round, but first, as he would automatically nat 20 the check as per his school ability, but that's hardly standard issue for every Wizard.

Really what you are describing is an initiative off. Whoever wins init "wins," though the win clause for the Wizard is lower than for the attackers as all he has to do is escape. Antimagic Field being pre-cast via scroll on the first guy through the door would do it though as all he would need to do is get the wizard in it with no way out besides past him. Unless of course, again, the Wizard was a diviner. You don't beat the diviner.

andreww wrote:

Emergency Force Sphere.

Good luck chewing through it, it may take a while.

Can't use immediate actions flat footed though, so the assassins prep'd with their pre-staggered pouncers and would still have it against the non-diviner. It also wouldn't help if a pre-Antimagic Field'd assassin closed in on the surprise round.


Not getting to ambush the diviner is sort of the point of that spec. *nod*

Conjurers could be fun too, with a permanent Ice Devil or Astral Deva on guard. Though those might not always be socially acceptable enough, I guess.


Helikon wrote:

Door opens.

Quickrunners shirt move action.
Eidolon pounce. At level 10 it will probably eat the naked wizard without problems by itself 5x +15 5x 1d8+18+2d6 + 1d8+24+1d6
Pouncing animal companion dire tiger.
Pouncing barbarian.
Do I need to continue? 4 simple ways to reach him in the first round and having a full attack
Not really, no.
Charge wrote:
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

The person opening the door is presumably standing in front of it (otherwise they can't open it). You can't charge past them. And if they are the charger, then they spent their move opening the door. Their only option is quickrunners shirt for a single standard action attack. You also can't 5-foot step through a corner, so that's also out.

Also where's the antimagic field in this? If it's the person opening the door the bath has to be 5 feet wide and 10 feet long, otherwise the wizard is or can get out of range. If it's not the person opening the door then the antimagic field can't reach the wizard at all. Silence at least someone can be farther away but it still requires a tiny bath room and the person to be standing directly in line with the door (remember, both antimagic field and silence don't go around corners).

And if I'm at all allowed to pick instead of using the prebuilt NPCs I take Diviner, spider sense a surprise round (and beat your initiative with 38+dex), and teleport somewhere else. Before you even open the door. I don't have any gear or anything else in range, clearly it's not important for me to be there. Maybe drop a quickened Cloudkill first for @#$%^ and giggles. It's not like it matters, if I die I just pop back to the Clone.


Out of curiosity - do all your high level wizards instaport away from all combat and drop Cloudkill?

Sovereign Court

Coriat wrote:
Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p

Except the part in the CRB about total cover breaking the line of effect... and there's not a lot of things spell-wise that can ignore line of effect. The spellcaster's best bet is to summon a shark. :)


Darkheyr wrote:
Out of curiosity - do all your high level wizards instaport away from all combat and drop Cloudkill?

In this specific case, yes. Contact Other Plane: "Am I going to get ambushed today?" "Is this going to happen whether or not I leave my demiplane?" "Do the attackers pose a real threat?". Since the answers are yes, no, and yes, when I go visit the material plane and end up naked in a bath (for some reason, since I wouldn't actually take off most of my gear) without a party and my spider sense suddenly goes off I have to assume that this is both the ambush I'm expecting and that it poses a real threat to me. Wizards do not get less squishy, they just get more options to prevent people from reaching the squishy bits. Naked, alone, and about to enter combat is pretty much a worst case scenario. The Cloudkill, as I pointed out, is mostly if I'm Evil, vindictive, or otherwise unconcerned with collateral damage.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p
Except the part in the CRB about total cover breaking the line of effect... and there's not a lot of things spell-wise that can ignore line of effect. The spellcaster's best bet is to summon a shark. :)

Except for the part in the CRB about water's total cover not affecting magical effects.

Sovereign Court

Kain Darkwind wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p
Except the part in the CRB about total cover breaking the line of effect... and there's not a lot of things spell-wise that can ignore line of effect. The spellcaster's best bet is to summon a shark. :)
Except for the part in the CRB about water's total cover not affecting magical effects.

They can't say you get Total Cover and then make that cover ineffective. Improved Cover gets you +4 to Ref save; what does this Inferior Water-based Total Cover get you?


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Darkheyr wrote:
Out of curiosity - do all your high level wizards instaport away from all combat and drop Cloudkill?
In this specific case, yes. Contact Other Plane: "Am I going to get ambushed today?" "Is this going to happen whether or not I leave my demiplane?" "Do the attackers pose a real threat?". Since the answers are yes, no, and yes, when I go visit the material plane and end up naked in a bath (for some reason, since I wouldn't actually take off most of my gear) without a party and my spider sense suddenly goes off I have to assume that this is both the ambush I'm expecting and that it poses a real threat to me. Wizards do not get less squishy, they just get more options to prevent people from reaching the squishy bits. Naked, alone, and about to enter combat is pretty much a worst case scenario. The Cloudkill, as I pointed out, is mostly if I'm Evil, vindictive, or otherwise unconcerned with collateral damage.

... so, your wizard is using Contact Other Plane every day, hoping to get both true answers and to avoid getting hit by a stat decrease that effectively neuters you for weeks? And you ask that specific question? What others, if I may ask?


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Darkheyr wrote:
... so, your wizard is using Contact Other Plane every day, hoping to get both true answers and to avoid getting hit by a stat decrease that effectively neuters you for weeks? And you ask that specific question? What others, if I may ask?

Yup. In addition, he's also casting moment of prescience before contact other plane to ensure he passes the Int check to avoid having his stats reduced.

And don't forget our wizard has also memorized a quickened cloudkill and quickened teleport, as has been mentioned. And spellbane and shapechange, if it's Ryjin's wizard. Oh, and foresight.

So, if you're keeping track, our wizard has devoted 5 of his likely 7 9th level spell slots, 2 of his 8th level spell slots, and a smattering of other spell slots just for situations like this. And you can't argue it, because he does this every day because he's 'cautious', so therefore would never get caught without those spells memorized.

Meanwhile, our poor fighter isn't allowed to have taken his own magical precautions, because of course he's just a big dumb fighter who only hits things with a piece of metal.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
The person opening the door is presumably standing in front of it (otherwise they can't open it). You can't charge past them. And if they are the charger, then they spent their move opening the door.

Open door...5-foot step out of the way. That's the standard Rogue job in this situation.


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Xexyz wrote:
Darkheyr wrote:
... so, your wizard is using Contact Other Plane every day, hoping to get both true answers and to avoid getting hit by a stat decrease that effectively neuters you for weeks? And you ask that specific question? What others, if I may ask?

Yup. In addition, he's also casting moment of prescience before contact other plane to ensure he passes the Int check to avoid having his stats reduced.

And don't forget our wizard has also memorized a quickened cloudkill and quickened teleport, as has been mentioned. And spellbane and shapechange, if it's Ryjin's wizard. Oh, and foresight.

So, if you're keeping track, our wizard has devoted 5 of his likely 7 9th level spell slots, 2 of his 8th level spell slots, and a smattering of other spell slots just for situations like this. And you can't argue it, because he does this every day because he's 'cautious', so therefore would never get caught without those spells memorized.

Meanwhile, our poor fighter isn't allowed to have taken his own magical precautions, because of course he's just a big dumb fighter who only hits things with a piece of metal.

Moment of prescience only helps on opposed ability checks (stuff like stealth vs. perception, bluff v. sense motive, the opposed charisma check involved in planar binding, etc.). It doesn't help with all ability checks. It's an interesting limitation on how the spell actually works.

Moment of prescience won't actually help you when using contact other plane, because that int check isn't an opposed roll.

Good hope's an example of a spell that works on all ability checks, and actually would help you with contact other plane.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p
Except the part in the CRB about total cover breaking the line of effect... and there's not a lot of things spell-wise that can ignore line of effect. The spellcaster's best bet is to summon a shark. :)
Except for the part in the CRB about water's total cover not affecting magical effects.
They can't say you get Total Cover and then make that cover ineffective.

What do you think the line means?


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p
Except the part in the CRB about total cover breaking the line of effect... and there's not a lot of things spell-wise that can ignore line of effect. The spellcaster's best bet is to summon a shark. :)
Except for the part in the CRB about water's total cover not affecting magical effects.
They can't say you get Total Cover and then make that cover ineffective. Improved Cover gets you +4 to Ref save; what does this Inferior Water-based Total Cover get you?

They literally did that very thing. Everyone knows that terrain hazards are for mundanes. Paizo is just cutting to the chase a bit quicker here.

Not only does water not block line of effect, but jumping into the water does not provide a +4 Reflex save against magical attacks.

Don't worry, I'm sure if there was a spell that gave you magical water cover, it would work just fine.


Xexyz wrote:
Darkheyr wrote:
... so, your wizard is using Contact Other Plane every day, hoping to get both true answers and to avoid getting hit by a stat decrease that effectively neuters you for weeks? And you ask that specific question? What others, if I may ask?

Yup. In addition, he's also casting moment of prescience before contact other plane to ensure he passes the Int check to avoid having his stats reduced.

And don't forget our wizard has also memorized a quickened cloudkill and quickened teleport, as has been mentioned. And spellbane and shapechange, if it's Ryjin's wizard. Oh, and foresight.

So, if you're keeping track, our wizard has devoted 5 of his likely 7 9th level spell slots, 2 of his 8th level spell slots, and a smattering of other spell slots just for situations like this. And you can't argue it, because he does this every day because he's 'cautious', so therefore would never get caught without those spells memorized.

Meanwhile, our poor fighter isn't allowed to have taken his own magical precautions, because of course he's just a big dumb fighter who only hits things with a piece of metal.

What Fighter class features give him access to those magical protections, again? Which ones remain in effect and/or can be used effectivelly without any piece of gear? Is the Fighter buy and using multiple scrolls every day?

This is one situation where most Fighters get hosed. Just like being ambushed during the night/in the morning hoses most Wizards. Can we simply accept the fact that Fighters are one of the most gear-dependent classes in the game and are particularly dependent on gear that is not easily replaced?


Which wizard class feature gives him more than his first level spells and 2 per remaining level again?

One cannot assume a wizard to have a plethora of spells useful to specifically this situation at his permanent disposal (including components and foci), yet dismiss all thought of specific fighter builds, or gear that isn't nearly as easy to 'not have access to'.

The simple truth is: If a character of any class at level 20 has to expect assassins, he will prepare for assassins unless he's of the idiot variety. Removing his gear will hamper either.

In fact, depending on circumstance, removing a wizard's spellbook might hamper him more in the long run than removing a sword from a fighter.


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Who's dismissing all thoughts of specific fighter builds? I've already said that specific fighter builds can do better at surviving this whole bath thing, and I'm pretty sure that Lemmy had also already advanced that opinion way back on page 1.

Yet the urge to compare wizard spells known to fighter feats is not a good one. The wizard's spell selection is just much less constrained than the fighter's feat selection, and it is much easier to prepare a broad range of capabilities. The attempts to handwave that and make a direct comparison between the two are pretty forced and unconvincing.


Presumably because of the talk of "Schrodinger Fighters," and also how the goalposts have been moved whenever it's been pointed out "well, the fighter could just do ____."

I'm pretty sure at this point of the discussion, our presumed General Meathead somehow has no feats beyond weapon focus and weapon specialization, because him actually having feats that let him do things other than swing a single specific weapon slightly better is cheating.


Quite a few people through the entire thread.

As said, I agree that wizards have more options at their disposal than fighters - I'm just disagreeing with the hyperbole, blatant assumption and narrow-mindedness brought forth in a few posts here.

The entire scenario - at least the way most assume it to be, given that we lack details - basically stems around "the fighter has already been brought into a situation he should have avoided in the first place, and because typical fighters are built this and that way, he can't do anything, and thus sucks".

Which really is the same as saying "the wizard used up all his spell slots, and all his spellbooks have been stolen, and properly built wizards don't have spell mastery, thus wizards suck".


I do believe the wizard in question needs his spellbook in the morning, but of course the fighter doesn't get to use anything in the morning cause he just sleeps in or is being forced to make the wizard breakfast because he's been dominated anyway.


Zhangar wrote:

Presumably because of the talk of "Schrodinger Fighters," and also how the goalposts have been moved whenever it's been pointed out "well, the fighter could just do ____."

I'm pretty sure at this point of the discussion, our presumed General Meathead somehow has no feats beyond weapon focus and weapon specialization, because him actually having feats that let him do things other than swing a single specific weapon slightly better is cheating.

Oh, please.

I found two published fighters who stood awful chances. The response?

Quote:
Those aren't real fighters! You dirty theorycrafter using published fighters from adventures and books! Watch as I reject your theorycrafting by laying out what a more ideal hypothetical fighter should have!

(summarized by Coriat)

Then someone picked another published fighter who was supposed to be more ideal, we ran through, discovered he's pretty hopeless at gearless survival too. The response?

"Uh, we're not going to retread this discussion!"

Meanwhile we've examined two published wizards and found that both of them have strong gearless options - one of them is all but guaranteed to escape and the other has a strong shot at escaping from a general encounter but might be shot down by a party who knew his build, used specific tactics, and shopped for particular one-use items just to prepare for that fight.

And you feel the discussion has been unfair to your side.

*shakes head*


Re-read the thread. There are many, many statements about archetypes and feats no one would take, or that wouldn't be relevant.

That's why I'm arguing against the notion that every wizard knows this or that spell. I mean, just a few posts back, we had someone bringing up a diviner casting Contact Other Plane every day to check for an Ambush and then just instaporting away. Just in case.

Aside, I don't really care for specific builds either way. Not published, not my own. Some might have better chances, some less, and either will be disadvantaged heavily if their opponents know who they are and what they can do - regardless of class.

And just for the record, I'm not on "the fighter side". If at all, I'm on the side saying "Well, it depends."


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And for a slightly less snarky response:

If people assume that General Meathead probably has mostly weapon focused feats and is pretty useless without his gear, that's probably because Paizo

a) publishes example high level fighters who have mostly weapon focused feats and are pretty useless without their gear

(in addition to the NPCs, Valeros is this way too, though his stats only go up to 12th as far as I'm aware)

b) tend to bury a number of those "do other things than swing your weapon" feats behind prerequisites and generally make them somewhat more difficult to get ahold of than "swing your weapon better" feats. Particularly for the maneuvers everyone wants the fighter here to have, it's worth pointing out that they have prerequisites and not entirely easy ones.

Meanwhile, Paizo's published NPC wizards, while nobody's idea of optimized, have a much wider array of things they might do if they are caught without their magic items, and also, Paizo is not in the habit of making "do other things than damage" spells any harder to get than damage spells.

It is worth remembering that saying "the fighter might have Improved Disarm" and "the wizard might have Spell X" are not the same thing when Improved Disarm has prerequisites and Spell X does not, when the wizard gets many more spells than the fighter gets feats, and when the wizard can (and is encouraged to) cover many bases with spells whereas the fighter is encouraged to focus on one or a few things.

Sovereign Court

Kain Darkwind wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p
Except the part in the CRB about total cover breaking the line of effect... and there's not a lot of things spell-wise that can ignore line of effect. The spellcaster's best bet is to summon a shark. :)
Except for the part in the CRB about water's total cover not affecting magical effects.
They can't say you get Total Cover and then make that cover ineffective. Improved Cover gets you +4 to Ref save; what does this Inferior Water-based Total Cover get you?

They literally did that very thing. Everyone knows that terrain hazards are for mundanes. Paizo is just cutting to the chase a bit quicker here.

Not only does water not block line of effect, but jumping into the water does not provide a +4 Reflex save against magical attacks.

Don't worry, I'm sure if there was a spell that gave you magical water cover, it would work just fine.

Well then, that fighter is done if the enemy party has even a 5th level wizard... but he's basically all powerful in his tub if the enemy party entirely consists of large burly barbarians and fighters all equipped with +5 spears and standing right over the tub. Do I now get this right?


@Coriat
Oh, true enough. I actually think that performing adequately as a wizard is far simpler than performing adequately as a fighter. The latter seems to take much more tinkering.

And of course, your type of game changes things up a lot. The typical party of four is far different from some games I've had - be it a pure DPR beast of an archer inquisitor, a blaster sorcerer, my dark elf fighter and a strength rogue, or that NWN server I'm still running - not PF, but close enough. People tend to build characters vastly different when they are closer to people just living in a frontier town, with a lack of level-appropriate encounters every day.

Edit: Spells do have prerequisites, though. You can't take them all, even though the method of acquisition differs. For one, additional spells cost gold - and I'd honestly shelf them right with equipment that might help out a fighter in moments like this. Removing it from one but not the other seems... odd.


Coriat wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Presumably because of the talk of "Schrodinger Fighters," and also how the goalposts have been moved whenever it's been pointed out "well, the fighter could just do ____."

I'm pretty sure at this point of the discussion, our presumed General Meathead somehow has no feats beyond weapon focus and weapon specialization, because him actually having feats that let him do things other than swing a single specific weapon slightly better is cheating.

Oh, please.

I found two published fighters who stood awful chances. The response?

Quote:
Those aren't real fighters! You dirty theorycrafter using published fighters from adventures and books! Watch as I reject your theorycrafting by laying out what a more ideal hypothetical fighter should have!

(summarized by Coriat)

Then someone picked another published fighter who was supposed to be more ideal, we ran through, discovered he's pretty hopeless at gearless survival too. The response?

"Uh, we're not going to retread this discussion!"

Meanwhile we've examined two published wizards and found that both of them have strong gearless options - one of them is all but guaranteed to escape and the other has a strong shot at escaping from a general encounter but might be shot down by a party who knew his build, used specific tactics, and shopped for particular one-use items just to prepare for that fight.

And you feel the discussion has been unfair to your side.

*shakes head*

RJGrady and I pointed out that both of the published fighters you linked were terrible builds. Beyond that I think you're mischaracterizing our posts.

I've just looked for the third published fighter and didn't find the post. (Though I found the spellcasters finally.) Were you thinking of Rynjin's hypothetical fighter that he put up? Edit: Or are you talking about Grady's guy that was ultra-fixated on finding a rogue to take daggers from?

I guess I wasn't aware this was supposed to be a contest =P


Zhangar wrote:
Edit: Or are you talking about Grady's guy that was ultra-fixated on finding a rogue to take daggers from?

Yeah, that guy. You know "neither of your linked fighters are real fighters, but the crime lord has a build I would accept as being a real fighter"

"okay, let's look at yours instead" (at this point I spend a chunk of my life analyzing the crime lord instead of the ones I had originally linked, and discovering that he is also awful in this scenario even if he does get a dagger)"

"Oh, but, we're not retreading this discussion."*

(we all subsequently go back to the unresolvable discussion of what a hypothetical fighter might or might not be able to do, because thankfully that discussion is completely free of retreading?)

Also, we all know that Paizo NPC stats are not optimized, but then, their fighters and wizards alike are in that boat, so if the non-optimized wizards still have options and the non-optimized fighters are sucking it up, that still says something about the classes' gear reliance.

*:
That particular post bothered me, can you tell? And yeah, not your post personally, I know


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.
Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p
Except the part in the CRB about total cover breaking the line of effect... and there's not a lot of things spell-wise that can ignore line of effect. The spellcaster's best bet is to summon a shark. :)
Except for the part in the CRB about water's total cover not affecting magical effects.
They can't say you get Total Cover and then make that cover ineffective. Improved Cover gets you +4 to Ref save; what does this Inferior Water-based Total Cover get you?

They literally did that very thing. Everyone knows that terrain hazards are for mundanes. Paizo is just cutting to the chase a bit quicker here.

Not only does water not block line of effect, but jumping into the water does not provide a +4 Reflex save against magical attacks.

Don't worry, I'm sure if there was a spell that gave you magical water cover, it would work just fine.

Well then, that fighter is done if the enemy party has even a 5th level wizard... but he's basically all powerful in his tub if the enemy party entirely consists of large burly barbarians and fighters all equipped with +5 spears and standing right over the tub. Do I now get this right?

Yep. Well, minor addendum, they could disrupt it if they climb in the tub with him, because the total cover from being submerged doesn't apply if your attacker is also in the water.*

Far be it from me to prevent a bunch of burly guys from getting clean together ;)

*:
Someone could also just sunder the tub and end this whole discussion, but where's the fun in that?


Rynjin wrote:
Zhangar wrote:


@ Rynjin - that fighter would be fine as an NPC opponent, but be pretty lackluster as a PC. (Aside: I'd ditch the precise shot for rapid shot - weapon training + gloves of dueling actually work pretty well for boosting accuracy, and if you're going ranged odds are really good there isn't any sort of melee to be shooting into anyways.)

I'd expect an actual PC fighter to have some combat maneuvers (yes, I'm aware you consider combat maneuvers useless - I shall continue to respectfully disagree on that), both for shutting down enemy melee and for comboing with the rest of his party. Just what he should have will change with party composition and tactics. He has the feats to custom tailor his list to play to his party's strengths; he's doing himself a disservice if he doesn't.

I just don't see how you CAN disagree. By 20th level the only worthwhile Combat Maneuver is Grapple, which takes a hell of a lot of Feats.

A solid 75% of the Bestiary is immune to Trip (due to either size, flight, no legs, too many legs, etc.), another 15% is highly resistant, and the final 10% MIGHT be vulnerable to it.

Disarm? Most things don't use weapons. At high levels the ones that do usually have an ability that simply lets them MAKE a weapon as a free action or some such.

Dirty Trick is kind of a wild card. I can't really comment on it since Dirty Trick is explicitly reliant on GM Fiat for what works and what doesn't. With a lenient GM it's the frickin' KING of combat maneuvers.

Bull Rush eats your standard to knock a guy five feet that way. Whoopee. Also size restricted as I recall. Cool with Shield Slam though.

Reposition is literally just "Worse Bull Rush". I don't even know why this exists.

Ditto Drag. Why?

Overrun is good if you're a woolly mammoth. Are you a woolly mammoth?

So that leaves Grapple: The combat maneuver with the most Feat support next to Trip. You cannot do Grapple as a "half measure" because if you do you're screwing yourself as much as the
...

Missed this post, so overdue reply.

Part of the trick with combat manuevers is that they ARE situational, and they'll usually shut down an enemy on the spot if they work.

Trip: Agreed it's of limited use against most monsters mainly due to the size restriction (though an Enlarge potion helps - very few monsters are actually bigger than huge). Trip is crippling when it works, and since it utilizes your weapon, it's also not that hard to get it to work.

Odd aside: While a number of monsters fly, a number also have always-on airwalk. Airwalk is not flight, and leaves them open to tripping.

Disarm: There's a huge number of higher level monsters that fight with weapons, in part because iterative attacks generally result in more damage than natural attacks. Oni (who often fight with very nasty exotic weapons), giants (though many giants fight with relatively crappy weapons), a surprisingly large number of demons, and of course, enemy martials. Also, Jade Regent's an example of an AP with a huge number of enemies worth disarming.

Of course, if your GM runs nothing BUT enemies with natural attacks, then I understand why you don't see opportunities to disarm coming up.

Bull rush: I'm not a fan either, but Greater Bullrush combined with Shield Slam means you take your full attack, and then trigger a bunch of AoOs on your enemy as you launch him at the other martials/summoned help/etc. A sword & baord ranger in my CC game used that to really effect. (Also, for extra fun, bullrush someone into a wall to knock them prone.)

Reposition: I had a LOT of fun with reposition - because you get to move your enemy in any direction, and thus force it into a really bad location - like tossing it into full attack range the inquisitor and her barbarian cohort, who just got AoOs on top of getting to kill it at their leisure. Since reposition uses your weapon, blowing past an enemy's CMD for extra squares of movement isn't that hard.

Grappling: Grappling is hilariously mean. A personal favorite option of mine is "move with the target up to half your speed" - meaning you just picked someone up and walked them over to where an ally can easily kill them. Grappling IS one of the harder maneuvers to pull off unfortunately, since it's a "weaponless" maneuvers. Also, #$%^&*( freedom of movement.

Yeah, drag is dumb. No comment on dirty trick, because I haven't messed with it.

My reasons for doing a maneuver in Jade Regent were usually either "I'm moving in and need to shut this guy down," or "It's in fine shape, so I have no idea if I can kill it with my own full attack - but if I do ____ to it, then it's guaranteed to die before it can go again."

A lot of combat maneuvers can greatly reduce the damage an enemy can deal, and significantly increase the amount of damage the rest of your party can do (usually through a combination of provoked AoOs and fatal positioning).

If that's less valuable in your game, then okay. (Like if you're the sole melee martial and everyone else is ranged or a caster, the value of the teamwork oriented maneuvers (bull rush, reposition, etc. Or if you're a greater beast totem barbarian and the GM didn't adjust monster HP to compensate, so you're guaranteed to kill the opponent on contact. It'll vary from campaign to campaign.)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
What Fighter class features give him access to those magical protections, again? Which ones remain in effect and/or can be used effectivelly without any piece of gear? Is the Fighter buy and using multiple scrolls every day?

In a previous post I listed several permanent protections a fighter could buy with his money. Even if he spent 80% of his wealth on big-six type gear like Rynjin suggested, that still leaves him with 176,000 with which to use for other purposes. It's always assumed that wizards spend some of their wealth on permanent magical protections, so I see no reason why I fighter wouldn't spend his money on the same things. Sure, he'll have less of them because it's more expensive for him to get them and he's spent more of his wealth on his important gear, but he can still have some.

Lemmy wrote:


This is one situation where most Fighters get hosed. Just like being ambushed during the night/in the morning hoses most Wizards. Can we simply accept the fact that Fighters are one of the most gear-dependent classes in the game and are particularly dependent on gear that is not easily replaced?

I agree with you, the fighter's in worse shape than most any other class. I'm just so g%@~~@n sick of every wizard always being Schrödinger's Wizard in these discussions. Especially when people emphasize the wizard's Schrödingerness by moving the goalposts every time someone tries to make a case against them. Example: The fact that in this thread it's been repeatedly emphasized that the fighter isn't allowed anything aside from his innate class features; too bad he spent a bunch of feats on making his greatsword attacks stronger, he doesn't have his greatsword right now. However, the wizard gets to have whatever resources he needs (money, gems) in order to be able to cast whatever spells he wants. It's like it's not enough that the wizard is powerful enough as is, everyone else has to be made worse than what their own class dictates just to make the wizard seem that much better.


Zhangar wrote:
No comment on dirty trick, because I haven't messed with it.

I've heard really good things about highly specialized dirty trickers, but I have yet to play one myself. Without the feat lines it's kind of unrewarding, although like most combat maneuvers there are occasionally good circumstances to use it untrained.


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Coriat wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
Edit: Or are you talking about Grady's guy that was ultra-fixated on finding a rogue to take daggers from?

Yeah, that guy. You know "neither of your linked fighters are real fighters, but the crime lord has a build I would accept as being a real fighter"

"okay, let's look at yours instead" (at this point I spend a chunk of my life analyzing the crime lord instead of the ones I had originally linked, and discovering that he is also awful in this scenario even if he does get a dagger)"

"Oh, but, we're not retreading this discussion."*

(we all subsequently go back to the unresolvable discussion of what a hypothetical fighter might or might not be able to do, because thankfully that discussion is completely free of retreading?)

Also, we all know that Paizo NPC stats are not optimized, but then, their fighters and wizards alike are in that boat, so if the non-optimized wizards still have options and the non-optimized fighters are sucking it up, that still says something about the classes' gear reliance.

** spoiler omitted **

Heh, fair enough. Fighters are crazy gear reliant - it's all about your toys and how you use it.

(Another way of looking at it - if you take away Batman's toys and infinite money, he's just a clever but mundane martial artist with a lot of personal issues. A gearless fighter ain't doing any better. =P)

Sovereign Court

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Coriat wrote:


Far be it from me to prevent a bunch of burly guys from getting clean together ;)

STARZ presents:

SPARTACUS: BATH DIARIES


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Xexyz wrote:
I agree with you, the fighter's in worse shape than most any other class. I'm just so g+$~%!n sick of every wizard always being Schrödinger's Wizard in these discussions.
Zhangar wrote:
Heh, fair enough. Fighters are crazy gear reliant - it's all about your toys and how you use it.

Wait, hold on, we're in danger of discovering that on the more substantial topic, we mostly agree with each other!

Quick, someone say something about aroden's spellbane before the argument goes away completely!

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Zhangar wrote:
Bull rush: I'm not a fan either, but Greater Bullrush combined with Shield Slam means you take your full attack, and then trigger a bunch of AoOs on your enemy as you launch him at the other martials/summoned help/etc. A sword & baord ranger in my CC game used that to really effect. (Also, for extra fun, bullrush someone into a wall to knock them prone.)

I'm going through Jade Regent with a Foe Hammer specialized in Bull Rush. His Bull Rush CMB is +28 at level 12. We also have a Sorceror with all the Create Pit spells. Now imagine how every fight goes against a non-flying opponent.

Zhangar wrote:
Reposition: I had a LOT of fun with reposition - because you get to move your enemy in any direction, and thus force it into a really bad location - like tossing it into full attack range the inquisitor and her barbarian cohort, who just got AoOs on top of getting to kill it at their leisure. Since reposition uses your weapon, blowing past an enemy's CMD for extra squares of movement isn't that hard.

I have a Flowing Monk specialized in Reposition. Very useful in triggering AoOs, and moving opponents into death zones. Also, Flowing Monks can use it as an attack interrupt, so a standard tactic is to move opponents into a space where they can't actually attack the target they just declared against (while giving said target an AoO against them as insult to injury). That doesn't even include the times I've gotten to drop opponents off a cliff.


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Aroden's Spellbane: A great way to announce "screw that, no" when the GM springs beholders on your party.

More serious - One complaint with Reposition: the restriction against flinging foes into hazards, which requires a seperate feat (tactical reposition) to overcome. It's annoying that restriction was baked into the manuever in the first place (someone was clearly worried about it being too good). Though I found tactical reposition still worth it - shaking an enemy back and forth through a blade barrier is fun.

Edit: @ pH - Bullrush - heh, that's how the sword & board ranger and the sorceress dealt with the two packs of golems in Book 6 of CC. And nice on the flowing monk. That's pretty neat.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Coriat wrote:
Wait, hold on, we're in danger of discovering that on the more substantial topic, we mostly agree with each other!

Technically the topic is about whether or not a naked fighter can survive an ambush by a party of 10th level characters. I only contributed to the derailment argument of the level of screwedness of the fighter compared to other classes.

I'm totally innocent and bear no responsibility for the direction of this thread.


Actually as I recall the Beholder's AMF thingy is a Su ability, so Spellbane wouldn't stop it. I think.


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I'm legitly curious as to whether something like Spell Immunity, Spellbane or Ring of Counterspells could block a special ability that functions exactly like a spell, like the beholder's antimagic field or the alchemist's cloud bombs.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
and this is why adventurers smell so bad.

/thread

Actually, adventurers generally rely heavily on sponge baths. Horrifying but true.

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Oh, sorry, should have made it clear that the ranger is the one with the huge advantage versus the party. They can probably just Stealth and then literally ignore the party as the party just walks past them. They get both hide in plain sight and camouflage to hide without cover or concealment even if people are looking at them. The only way to fight this is the spell Acute Senses, which as I mentioned is not available to my party.

Oh, well, that is different! Pronoun trouble.

Quote:
As for the alchemist, mutagen is hours/level (and any rider effects that come with it) and eternal potion gives them one permanent potion (and with alchemical allocation, it counts as reusable). How useful that is depends entirely on if we use the summoner list (hello greater invisibility potion!) otherwise we're stuck with just fly/displacement/gaseous form. And as Rynjin pointed out, archetypes make this even better for the alchemist.

I don't play high-level very much. I know certain classes well enough tot make up for that, but APG classes are a weak point. *Shuffles off*

Rynjin wrote:
I also like how you're like "But yeah the Wizard is screwed because he has NONE of the good spells or Feats that could potentially save him. Not even the super common ones like Silent spell, Shapechange, or Teleport.".

I'm just saying, if we want to make this fair, the wizard should probably have a 7 Intelligence. For roleplaying purposes.

Darkheyr wrote:

Out of curiosity - do all your high level wizards instaport away from all combat and drop Cloudkill?

They do when they're surprised in the shower. I mean, dude. I'm naked, outnumbered, and I'm not even meant to fight in melee.As a 20th level wizard, I know better than to take such chances.

Coriat wrote:
"okay, let's look at yours instead" (at this point I spend a chunk of my life analyzing the crime lord instead of the ones I had originally linked, and discovering that he is also awful in this scenario even if he does get a dagger)"

Any fighter build focused on disarming or unarmed combat stands a fair chance, actually, as we did discuss. It can go either way depending on whether he's able to get the mage down quickly.

Zhangar wrote:
Bull rush: I'm not a fan either, but Greater Bullrush combined with Shield Slam means you take your full attack, and then trigger a bunch of AoOs on your enemy as you launch him at the other martials/summoned help/etc.

Yeah, I think I and Rynjin can agree that Shield Slam is crazy good. He's in my Age of Worms campaign, and the NPCs are explicitly trying to avoid getting their backs against walls thanks to his PC.


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"Do not get between Al'Khatel and wall.'" still gives me warm fuzzies.


Quote:
They do when they're surprised in the shower. I mean, dude. I'm naked, outnumbered, and I'm not even meant to fight in melee.As a 20th level wizard, I know better than to take such chances.

Agreed, but see, this is among the reasons why I said circumstances matter.

When and where exactly is this taking place, and who exactly are the target and his opponents?

I mean, your reaction would likely be entirely different if the barging in folks would look like your housestaff, a band of dogs or the citywatch. Well, unless you're the type that isn't liked by the city watch.

That's assuming they are, as such, barging in. Or that you are somewhere that can be barged in to.


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I was always reading this as a simple, logicalish scenario: Dude is bathing in the woods. He left his gear with his party, who happen to be fairly nearby but unavailable for backup (let's say they caught a spy and started chasing her, figuring their fighter buddy will be fine for a bit).

Keep in mind that this is an exercise, not a real event. The point is that a fighter is much more vulnerable to things like rust monsters or low WBL than most classes.


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Rynjin wrote:
Actually as I recall the Beholder's AMF thingy is a Su ability, so Spellbane wouldn't stop it. I think.

I have no idea if it should actually work or not (after all, Spellbane wouldn't stop a breath weapon, but the AMF cone is duplicating a spell, so it gets weird) but the GM let my wizard stop that damn AMF cone with a Spellbane, so I ain't complaining.

@ Kobold Cleaver: Sponge baths? Heh. PCs in my games always get items that cast prestidigitation. For pure vanity items, they're surprisingly high priority...


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I was always reading this as a simple, logicalish scenario: Dude is bathing in the woods. He left his gear with his party, who happen to be fairly nearby but unavailable for backup (let's say they caught a spy and started chasing her, figuring their fighter buddy will be fine for a bit).

Keep in mind that this is an exercise, not a real event. The point is that a fighter is much more vulnerable to things like rust monsters or low WBL than most classes.

Except that even tiniest differences might change the whole outcome. I mean, you can't compare an accidental hostile encounter with prepared assassins, and that's just the most glaring one.

A naked fighter in the woods that is part of a classical party of four will also be vastly different from a naked fighter that is part of an intrigue-ladden secret society, expecting assassins at every corner.

Again: Circumstances matter.

Sovereign Court

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the Taldor book has a walking couch... maybe it's time for a walking bathtub, for those times when you're naked and outnumbered! :)


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chaoseffect wrote:
Can't use immediate actions flat footed though, so the assassins prep'd with their pre-staggered pouncers and would still have it against the non-diviner. It also wouldn't help if a pre-Antimagic Field'd assassin closed in on the surprise round.

Non diviners get it with a trait, Defensive Strategist means you aren't considered flatfooted so can EFS. Contingency also lasts weeks per cast.


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andreww wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Can't use immediate actions flat footed though, so the assassins prep'd with their pre-staggered pouncers and would still have it against the non-diviner. It also wouldn't help if a pre-Antimagic Field'd assassin closed in on the surprise round.
Non diviners get it with a trait, Defensive Strategist means you aren't considered flatfooted so can EFS. Contingency also lasts weeks per cast.

Huh, that's an Inner Sea gods religion trait. I'm going to guess most wizards don't worship Torag.

Of course, if your GM doesn't pay the slightest lick of attention to where things actually come from (remember, d20pfsrd strips out all setting specific requirements and prerequisites), more power to you?

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