A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Trimalchio wrote:
I think part of the distinction is that a naked NPC fighter vs 3 or 4 level 10 PCs will very likely be hosed, but a naked PC fighter vs 3 or 4 NPCs has a good chance of causing some havoc before escaping.

How exactly does the naked high level gearless character escape from a group which probably has people in it who can fly all day long and/or teleport.


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Jiggy wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
I think it would be interesting to switch over to a 20th lvl wizard or the like taking a bath and getting jumped but I know the outcome is much different (spoiler everyone dies or the spellcaster gets away)
The 20th-level diviner auto-wins initiative, casts power word kill on the 10th-level caster, then flies out of the tub (because overland flight was already running) and casts quickened greater invisibility. What's left of the 10th-level party gets a set of actions (maybe invisibility purge from the cleric and the pre-buffed flying fighter moves up and attacks once?) and then Mr. 20 gets to decimate the rest of them.

If we are assuming that the fighter does not have his weapon then we have to assume the wizard does not have his spell component pouch.


andreww wrote:
How exactly does the naked high level gearless character escape from a group which probably has people in it who can fly all day long and/or teleport.

I assume a high enough stealth check will suffice to escape from some gate crashers inside a bathhouse or a river. And why the level 20 naked fighter isn't also benefiting form wind walk or similar has never really been addressed.


Trimalchio wrote:
andreww wrote:
How exactly does the naked high level gearless character escape from a group which probably has people in it who can fly all day long and/or teleport.
I assume a high enough stealth check will suffice to escape from some gate crashers inside a bathhouse or a river. And why the level 20 naked fighter isn't also benefiting form wind walk or similar has never really been addressed.

Because the Fighter can't cast Wind Walk.


If our hypothetical level 20 fighter cannot get access to wind walk via allies, UMD, leadership, or some other means then I struggle to grok how he reached level 20 beyond divine fiat.


Trimalchio wrote:
If our hypothetical level 20 fighter cannot get access to wind walk via allies, UMD, leadership, or some other means then I struggle to grok how he reached level 20 beyond divine fiat.

This is a hypothetical involving a 20th level Fighter with no gear, not a 20th level Fighter with no gear but access to every buff any potential ally might be able to cast.


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Lemmy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

The moment you start applying logic to this, we get to point out the 20th-level fighter would never be more than five feet from his gear and would have his allies thirty feet away on the other side of the silent image curtain the bard put up.

Dude, at 20th level, everyone who hates you has access to scry-and-die. Your neighbor with the dog who digs up your flowerbed? The dog is a Conjurer and the neighbor is a Diviner.

You are paranoid or you are dead.

-.-

Dude... The point of the thread is not "How screwed is a Fighter during bath time?", but "How does a Fighter fare without his gear?". The answer is "Really freaking bad!". If the debate were about being ambushed during the night or as soon as the character wakwa up... Then Wizards would be the ones in trouble. But gear dependency? That one is on Fighters...

Uh, you seem annoyed. I think you missed my point. My point is that applying logic and over-analyzing the scenario is pointless because if we start over-analyzing the entire concept falls apart.

Rynjin wrote:

Generally when I hear Fighter the default would be a 2H weapon user, Str based.

So a quick no gear 20 PB build would look something like:

Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

By 20th, stats boosted to:

Str: 28 (+2 Human, +5 leveling, +5 Inherent from Tomes or Wishes)
Dex: 18 (+4 Inherent...just cheaper than going +5 for no further benefit)
Con: 18 (ditto above)
Int: 12
Wis: 16 (ditto Con/Dex)
Cha: 7

With Feats like:

** spoiler omitted **

Note: "???" denotes more that these are "wild card" slots, not that I don't know what to put there. Those are the Feats you'd fill up with some of those Feats I consider standard if you wanted to do something wonky like a Racial Heritage: Orc into Endurance/Die Hard and the Deathless Feat line, or Aasimar to grab Wings, or Animal Ally, or what have you.

Not everyone takes such a specialized featline, of course. Some people sacrifice a bit of DPR for more variability specifically to survive scenarios like this one (kinda like how you grabbed the Blind-Fight line and Intimidating Prowess).


I earlier listed buffs that any level 20 character should reasonably be expected to have access to because they last an entire day, these are spells with 24 hour duration or 1/hour a level duration, why would a level 20 fighter upon waking up for the day not begin with a regimen of buffs?

Level 20 is the pinnacle of achievement, it seems to stretch belief some mook got there without using a modicum of magical enhancement.


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In general, these sorts of scenarios are effectively unheard of. In a real scenario the Fighter would always have his weapon at hand, and probably wouldn't be bathing alone. He'd also have a good +10 AC from a Ring and Amulet.

People don't build for these scenarios unless they plan on making dumb mistakes like tossing their gear beyond their reach and standing buck naked in the woods. And I would consider grabbing Catch Off Guard and Improved Disarm to be building for these scenarios in most cases.

That's why it's a hypothetical, not a real scenario.

On the other hand, a -2 to all enemy attacks and saves and an extra attack as a Swift action, and the ability to be effectively immune to invisible creatures, Stealth, Darkness and the like...much more generally useful.

Trimalchio wrote:

I earlier listed buffs that any level 20 character should reasonably be expected to have access to because they last an entire day, these are spells with 24 hour duration or 1/hour a level duration, why would a level 20 fighter upon waking up for the day not begin with a regimen of buffs?

Level 20 is the pinnacle of achievement, it seems to stretch belief some mook got there without using a modicum of magical enhancement.

He does have magical enhancement.

In gear (which he is without) and allies (which he is without). That is the scenario.


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Trimalchio wrote:

I earlier listed buffs that any level 20 character should reasonably be expected to have access to because they last an entire day, these are spells with 24 hour duration or 1/hour a level duration, why would a level 20 fighter upon waking up for the day not begin with a regimen of buffs?

Level 20 is the pinnacle of achievement, it seems to stretch belief some mook got there without using a modicum of magical enhancement.

This is pretty much the core of the thread; that fighters are primarily made viable through outside sources of power (i.e. gear and allies) rather than internal ones (such as class abilities).

If you remove a fighter's outside sources of power, most of them just can't stand up to the rigors of combat.


Rynjin wrote:

In general, these sorts of scenarios are effectively unheard of. In a real scenario the Fighter would always have his weapon at hand, and probably wouldn't be bathing alone. He'd also have a good +10 AC from a Ring and Amulet.

People don't build for these scenarios unless they plan on making dumb mistakes like tossing their gear beyond their reach and standing buck naked in the woods. And I would consider grabbing Catch Off Guard and Improved Disarm to be building for these scenarios in most cases.

What if you're taken captive by corrupt law enforcement/slavers? Or your enemies attack you in your sleep? Sure, you won't be literally defenseless in the latter case, but you might be caught without a weapon.

A player does not know what direction his campaign will head.


Is a spell components pouch considered an outside source of power, what about a holy symbol or a spell book?

The thread is discussing a level 20 fighter bathing, not sure what other hypothetical people are discussing.

If we want to speak about a level 20 character being inside a featureless box without access to any equipment or magical enhancements then a fighter actually does pretty well in those circumstances, at least compared to a wizard or a cleric.


If you're taken captive, you've already been defeated.

If you're attacked while asleep, hope you roll a 20 on your Fort save to not die.

Neither case is something you build for, since in the vast majority of campaigns it will never happen, and in the ones it does it should only happen once.

Building for "what if I'm defeated" is a good way to make it happen in the first place, since you're diverting resources from the more common "I'm trying to win" scenario. It is an opportunity cost that is unlikely to ever pay off, and even when it does it increases your chances of winning from none to slim at best.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Dude... The point of the thread is not "How screwed is a Fighter during bath time?", but "How does a Fighter fare without his gear?". The answer is "Really freaking bad!". If the debate were about being ambushed during the night or as soon as the character wakwa up... Then Wizards would be the ones in trouble. But gear dependency? That one is on Fighters...
Uh, you seem annoyed.

Nah... When I'm annoyed I don't use words like "dude". Too informal to express annoyance.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I think you missed my point. My point is that applying logic and over-analyzing the scenario is pointless because if we start over-analyzing the entire concept falls apart.

But there is a pretty big difference between a Wizard not preparing his spells and a Fighter removing his gear for whatever reason.


Trimalchio wrote:

Is a spell components pouch considered an outside source of power, what about a holy symbol or a spell book?

The thread is discussing a level 20 fighter bathing, not sure what other hypothetical people are discussing.

If we want to speak about a level 20 character being inside a featureless box without access to any equipment or magical enhancements then a fighter actually does pretty well in those circumstances, at least compared to a wizard or a cleric.

A Wizard without his spell component pouch can still cast spells without components and benefits from pre-buffs he himself can provide.

The aforementioned Extended Shapechange which can cover his ass for 400 minutes while he goes skinny dipping, for example.

A Fighter does not have this option. He cannot provide those things himself by a class option.


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So here's an alternative scenario: Fighter gets ambushed by a four-man party that lacks a mage.

I'd say if nothing else, the fighter would most likely be able to get away. He's got enough HP to soak a lot of arrows, especially once he makes it far enough that he's getting concealment/cover from the brush.

Hell, even with a mage, he's got a real chance as long as he can make those pesky Will saves. A tenth level wizard won't realistically have that many enchantment spells like dominate/hold person (charm person is not enough to force the fighter to stay around three armed potential enemies, even if the fourth guy's cool) ready at any given moment unless he actively prepared to kill the fighter.

A 20th-level fighter should have about a +11 Will save. Most really dangerous enchantments (command, dominate person) have a Short range, so the biggest danger is hold person. The fighter should be out of range of most other spells by the third round; sooner if the caster happens to be a dwarf or gnome. Assume a little bit of luck on the fighter's saves (accounting for a single reroll) and he can clear it.

Of course, the mage will likely start flying, but doing so will end up isolating him from the rest of his party. Readied thrown boulders can really screw with that mage's concentration, and he only has so many relevant spells ("Oh, gee, glad I prepared tiny hut instead of fly today..."). Plus, the fighter can climb trees and actually pounce on the guy (the mage can fly out of the treeline, but then he's out of range and loses line of sight).

Overall, assuming a very focused fighter build (no improvised weapon feats, Run, or whatever) and a party with a mage, I'd give the fighter maybe a 20-30% chance of getting away. Substantially higher if the mage is a sorcerer and/or doesn't have flight spells ready. Without a mage in the attacking force, I'd give the fighter way better odds.

And I don't want to hear any "oh, but the fighter needs a move action to get out of the bath". Then we're adding a new dimension to the "gearless fighter" by taking the scenario too literally. Again. In which case I will say that the fighter was bathing in a little pool to the side of a huge river and the enemies can't possibly cross without much drown. ;P

In conclusion, there are two things those levels are good for: High saves, and high HP. Those might just be enough.

Note that the Warrior can say the exact same thing, so this isn't much of a vote of confidence for the Fighter class.


Lemmy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Dude... The point of the thread is not "How screwed is a Fighter during bath time?", but "How does a Fighter fare without his gear?". The answer is "Really freaking bad!". If the debate were about being ambushed during the night or as soon as the character wakwa up... Then Wizards would be the ones in trouble. But gear dependency? That one is on Fighters...
Uh, you seem annoyed.
Nah... When I'm annoyed I don't use words like "dude". Too informal to express annoyance.

That's nonstandard. I was going by emoticons, which I generally find to be the best bet at reading someone's tone (not that they're always honest, but you can read that dishonesty). :P

Of course there's a difference, but that has nothing to do with what I said. Unless you weren't quoting what you were responding to.


A +11 is not really all that high... 5th level spells will likely have a DC of 22 or so... And reading those actions means the Fighter will never get out of range of the attacking party (since readying an action is a standard action).


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Dude... The point of the thread is not "How screwed is a Fighter during bath time?", but "How does a Fighter fare without his gear?". The answer is "Really freaking bad!". If the debate were about being ambushed during the night or as soon as the character wakwa up... Then Wizards would be the ones in trouble. But gear dependency? That one is on Fighters...
Uh, you seem annoyed.
Nah... When I'm annoyed I don't use words like "dude". Too informal to express annoyance.
That's nonstandard. I was going by emoticons, which I generally find to be the best bet at reading someone's tone (not that they're always honest, but you can read that dishonesty). :P

That emoticom was there because I had mentioned the whole "the bath is not the real point" 2 or 3 times already by that point...

It did demonstrate annoyance, but not real annoyance. More like a "*sigh*... Not this again..." thing.


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Rynjin wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:

Is a spell components pouch considered an outside source of power, what about a holy symbol or a spell book?

The thread is discussing a level 20 fighter bathing, not sure what other hypothetical people are discussing.

If we want to speak about a level 20 character being inside a featureless box without access to any equipment or magical enhancements then a fighter actually does pretty well in those circumstances, at least compared to a wizard or a cleric.

A Wizard without his spell component pouch can still cast spells without components and benefits from pre-buffs he himself can provide.

The aforementioned Extended Shapechange which can cover his ass for 400 minutes while he goes skinny dipping, for example.
eprovide those things himself by a class option.

How does a wizard prepare spells in the morning without his spellbook?

If in this scenario the wizard can have an extended shapechange, why a fighter doesn't have wind walk seems bizarre to me and smacks of a 'fighters can't have nice things because I say so" mentality. Why can't the fighter benefit from buffs his gear can provide especially if these benefits continue well after he removes the gear.


The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.

And yeah, a +11 isn't great, but the mage only has a few 5th levels and, speaking in terms of probability, only one of them is likely to be something like hold monster or dominate person. Most wizards will want to have teleport ready at all times (especially theory-crafted ones), and they'll want damage-dealing spells, too.

If we further assume that this wizard is lucky enough to possess an object and not a familiar, that gives him two castings. At that point, the fighter's probably screwed, but that does require some assumptions.

The wizard will open with his big spell, and the fighter has Improved Iron Will, so odds aren't bad that the fighter will make the save. After that, it starts coming down to luck. Which I conceded. That's why the fighter's chances are so low, but there is a decent chance. It's not game over as long as he knows to start running. :P


Lemmy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Dude... The point of the thread is not "How screwed is a Fighter during bath time?", but "How does a Fighter fare without his gear?". The answer is "Really freaking bad!". If the debate were about being ambushed during the night or as soon as the character wakwa up... Then Wizards would be the ones in trouble. But gear dependency? That one is on Fighters...
Uh, you seem annoyed.
Nah... When I'm annoyed I don't use words like "dude". Too informal to express annoyance.
That's nonstandard. I was going by emoticons, which I generally find to be the best bet at reading someone's tone (not that they're always honest, but you can read that dishonesty). :P

That emoticom was there because I had mentioned the whole "the bath is not the real point" 2 or 3 times already by that point...

It did demonstrate annoyance, but not real annoyance. More like a "*sigh*... Not this again..." thing.

So, yeah. Like I said, I was agreeing with you. The bath ain't the point. It's an exercise, because this dead horse won't be going to the glue factory anytime soon.

These arguments always seem to go the same way.

"Fighters suck, because [logical reasons]."
"No, they don't, because [ridiculously specific fighter builds]!"
"Yes, they do, because [insanely specific caster builds]!"

We haven't quite hit the third part yet, but I have a feeling we're gonna. Basically, I'm not convinced these scenarios really add anything to the debate. They just detract from the real problem: That fighters just kinda suck without allies. They're good to have around if you have allies, since their presence allows the mage to focus on their real job, but they can suck if the mage's player wants to be an a**#%+! or they're stuck fighting alone.

I actually think it's arguable that the early levels that fighters rock at kinda balance out the later levels that fighters turn into borderline sidekicks. It would be nice if things could be different for fighters, but at least they aren't that other class.


comparing a naked fighter to a naked wizard seems a little bizarre.

Does one get access to a components pouch? Does one get to have used his spellbook in the morning but the other cannot have used any of his items in the morning?

I agree that fighters as a class aren't as good as wizards, but that isn't news to anyone.


Trimalchio wrote:
Does one get to have used his spellbook in the morning but the other cannot have used any of his items in the morning?

Actually a fairly fair point. Even if we aren't taking the scenario literally, this would make sense if we're trying for a real comparison. If the wizard isn't stuck leaning on Spell Mastery, the fighter should have access to whatever gear affects him even while not worn.

Of course, there's not much of that type of gear other than tomes (which Rynjin already accounted for) and potions (which would make no sense for the fighter to have drunk beforehand).

Shadow Lodge

Kain Darkwind wrote:
I think the real point here is that if the naked fighter doesn't have a good chance of getting ... the mouth away from a dinosaur druid.

Unless you use a more literal interpretation of disarm. Although in this case, it would me more akin to dis-JAW.


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Disarming a T-rex just makes it madder. They're very sensitive about those little things.


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Trimalchio wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:

Is a spell components pouch considered an outside source of power, what about a holy symbol or a spell book?

The thread is discussing a level 20 fighter bathing, not sure what other hypothetical people are discussing.

If we want to speak about a level 20 character being inside a featureless box without access to any equipment or magical enhancements then a fighter actually does pretty well in those circumstances, at least compared to a wizard or a cleric.

A Wizard without his spell component pouch can still cast spells without components and benefits from pre-buffs he himself can provide.

The aforementioned Extended Shapechange which can cover his ass for 400 minutes while he goes skinny dipping, for example.
eprovide those things himself by a class option.

How does a wizard prepare spells in the morning without his spellbook?

Spell Mastery?

Even without his spellbook a Wizard can get a free planar ally...


I usually bathe in the river... I'd just full round swim down stream away from the guys in heavy armor/gear.
Unoptimum choice or not I usually dump my dumb fighter's points in Swim and something else over climb and something else.I just have to survive right?


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.

Well... The generic Fighter I built as an experiment a while ago has a innate Will save of +11 (6 base + 2 Wis + 1 trait + 2 Iron Will + 2 Half-Elf Alternate Racial trait). +13 vs Enchantment. I could have raised that by +2 or +3 if it were not for Combat Expertise and its idiotic prerequisites... A 50~60% chance of being neutralized by a spell makes it really difficult to be optimistic...

He does have Lunge, Improved/Greater Trip and Improved/Greater Disarm, though... He could possibly fight them off, but with an AC of 14, his odds are still not very good. If the fight lasts more than a couple rounds, his 214 hit points might not be enough.


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Actually, being underwater is great protection against archers, and mages rarely prepare water travel spells unless they're on a boat.

Environment wrote:
The fastest rapids send swimmers bobbing downstream at 60 to 90 feet per round.

If we wanted to pursue this as a thought experiment rather than as a continuation of an annoying argument, escaping into the rapids would be a great and cinematic way to escape an enemy mage. It could make for an awesome encounter if the fleeing character is an NPC the PCs have to catch alive, too.

"You enter the clearing and see your quarry. *Roll* He hears you coming. The unarmored man takes one look at you, grabs his sword/spell component pouch/mandolin, and leaps into the river."


Lemmy wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.

Well... The generic Fighter I built as an experiment a while ago has a innate Will save of +11 (6 base + 2 Wis + 1 trait + 2 Iron Will + 2 Half-Elf Alternate Racial trait). +13 vs Enchantment. I could have raised that by +2 or +3 if it were not for Combat Expertise and its idiotic prerequisites... A 50~60% chance of being neutralized by a spell makes it really difficult to be optimistic...

.
He does have Lunge, Improved/Greater Trip and Improved/Greater Disarm, though... He could possibly fight them off, but with an AC of 14, his odds are still not very good. If the fight lasts more than a couple rounds, his 214 hit points might not be enough.

I'd say if he's able to grab the enemy fighter's weapon in Round One, he actually has a really good chance.

Let's make two fairly generous assumptions: Fighter beats the other melee guy in init, and fighter makes his first Will save. The third generous assumption is Improved Disarm.

Round One: Fighter runs up and grabs the other melee guy's weapon. Other melee guy is now going to potentially plummet in effectiveness. Note that at worst the fighter is only taking one attack from the other melee guy this turn, since he had to draw another weapon.

Round Two: Having resisted the mage's first attack, the fighter five-foot steps (this is why winning Init is important—he needs to now be within reach of the mage) and full attacks. The wizard has about 55 HP, tops, and is not likely to survive even two attacks—assuming the fighter has stolen a greatsword, lacks any Weapon Focus benefits, and is dealing 2d6+13(str)+18(PA) per attack. This means the 5-attack fighter likely gets to start injuring the cleric or other melee guy this turn as well.

Round Three: At this point, the fight is arguably over. The two biggest threats (DPR machine and mind enslaver) are both either badly inconvenienced or destroyed. At this point, he can hold the mage hostage, allow the enemies to flee (not with the mage—him they have to leave behind, or just start mopping up if he's feeling lucky.

So I think we can agree that the fighter with disarming feats can treat this combat as only moderately difficult—it could go either way.


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Scavion wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:

Is a spell components pouch considered an outside source of power, what about a holy symbol or a spell book?

The thread is discussing a level 20 fighter bathing, not sure what other hypothetical people are discussing.

If we want to speak about a level 20 character being inside a featureless box without access to any equipment or magical enhancements then a fighter actually does pretty well in those circumstances, at least compared to a wizard or a cleric.

A Wizard without his spell component pouch can still cast spells without components and benefits from pre-buffs he himself can provide.

The aforementioned Extended Shapechange which can cover his ass for 400 minutes while he goes skinny dipping, for example.
eprovide those things himself by a class option.

How does a wizard prepare spells in the morning without his spellbook?

Spell Mastery?

Even without his spellbook a Wizard can get a free planar ally...

Also, just going by class features, wizards get a spell-book as part of their class features. Fighters do not get equipment as part of their class features.

Sorcerers have free eschew material components, and wizards require one of their feats to be able to go "free" from things not provided by their class, while fighters require (from what I'm reading) a three-feat investment to do the same... and in the fighter's case, it's not so much "do the same" as "be able to survive moderately well".

Then again, there's the difference in investment of equipment. spell component pouch (5 g); v. required items for fighters (~80,000+ gold).

This is not to say that a fighter can't be made to be survivable in this situation - just that it takes an awful lot more investment for them to be survivable, and they're no where near as effective without a huge sink in their personal resources, whereas the caster needs either a feat or 5 gold to do the same.


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Yeah, speculation is all fun, but it's hard to ignore the imbalance.

I try to focus on the bright side: I can kill that mage at first level in a single round. Then laugh in his player's face. Then rip up the character sheet. Then realize I went too far and find a new gaming group. Then repeat!


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Yeah, speculation is all fun, but it's hard to ignore the imbalance.

I try to focus on the bright side: I can kill that mage at first level in a single round. Then laugh in his player's face. Then rip up the character sheet. Then realize I went too far and find a new gaming group. Then repeat!

Bitter much? :P


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It's about as bitter as these threads are petty. ;D


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I'm all for fighters getting a power boost because they have actual abilities instead of feat taxes and being required to use gear.

I'm only trying to point out that the constraints of this scenario are bizarre and implausible, as explained earlier no one would ever be naked because taking off a headband and belt results in a severe penalty. Fighters, if they somehow survive to level 20, surely did so by taking as much advantage of the system as possible which would include having access to all day buffs.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Rynjin wrote:

People don't build for these scenarios unless they plan on making dumb mistakes like tossing their gear beyond their reach and standing buck naked in the woods. And I would consider grabbing Catch Off Guard and Improved Disarm to be building for these scenarios in most cases.

That's why it's a hypothetical, not a real scenario.

I always build my characters so that they have options if stripped of all their gear. I've played under too many sadistic GMs over the years not to.

That usually means some sort of natural attack or IUS or Catch Off Guard or the Birthmark trait or Eschew Materials. Or grabbing some sort of SLA I can use as a backup. By level 5 at the latest. (I usually want at least one solid contingency in place by level 3.)

I find it strange that anyone thinks that this is unusual. For me it's non-negotiable.

And I haven't had a single character that hasn't found this flexibility useful.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'd say if he's able to grab the enemy fighter's weapon in Round One, he actually has a really good chance.

Let's make two fairly generous assumptions: Fighter beats the other melee guy in init, and fighter makes his first Will save. The third generous assumption is Improved Disarm.

Round One: Fighter runs up and grabs the other melee guy's weapon. Other melee guy is now going to potentially plummet in effectiveness. Note that at worst the fighter is only taking one attack from the other melee guy this turn, since he had to draw another weapon.

Round Two: Having resisted the mage's first attack, the fighter five-foot steps (this is why winning Init is important—he needs to now be within reach of the mage) and full attacks. The wizard has about 55 HP, tops, and is not likely to survive even two attacks—assuming the fighter has stolen a greatsword, lacks any Weapon Focus benefits, and is dealing 2d6+13(str)+18(PA) per attack. This means the 5-attack fighter likely gets to start injuring the cleric or other melee guy this turn as well.

Round Three: At this point, the fight is arguably over. The two biggest threats (DPR machine and mind enslaver) are both either badly inconvenienced or destroyed. At this point, he can hold the mage hostage, allow the enemies to flee (not with the mage—him they have to leave behind, or just start mopping up if he's feeling lucky.

So I think we can agree that the fighter with disarming feats can treat this combat as only moderately difficult—it could go either way.

Hmm... I don't know. I'll give you the Fighter winning Initiative (My character has a +10, IIRC), disarming and stealing an weapon and maybe even making the first save... But I doubt any mage would be within 5ft step distance.

I think the Fighter's best chance (Assuming he beats the Wizard's Initiative) is using the 1st round to disarm/steal an weapon. And the 2nd one to run towards the Wizard (assuming he's not flying/invisible/whatever), eating 2~3 AoO in the process, then sundering his magic component pouch (and hoping he doesn't have another one... Or the Eschew Material feat. I suppose a Perception check should reveal how many pouches he has).

If he loses Initiative to the Wizard, I guess eating AoO to sunder the Wizard's pouch is the best bet. (The Wizard is likely to miss his AoO. And even if he hits, the damage is so low and the Fighter's CMB so high, that he will probably still successfully sunder the pouch... Assuming there is a pouch to sunder, of course).


pH unbalanced wrote:

That usually means some sort of natural attack or IUS or Catch Off Guard or the Birthmark trait or Eschew Materials. Or grabbing some sort of SLA I can use as a backup. By level 5 at the latest. (I usually want at least one solid contingency in place by level 3.)

I find it strange that anyone thinks that this is unusual. For me it's non-negotiable.

And I haven't had a single character that hasn't found this flexibility useful.

When you say you want a back up plan in place by level 5 at the latest, I wonder what kind of build you are running. By that level most classes would be lucky to have the bare necessities of their build in place: "Prepare for rare occasion X" feats are a luxury as each one you take displaces something that will actually be useful the majority of the time.


What if the scenario was changed a bit:

Party is captured and separated from all their "stuff". Dumped out in some demi-plane alone (each party member a different plane). So each party member is naked and alone. A party of 4 (lvl 10) will be coming to kill the members for sport and entertainment. Escape is a door out of the plane that leads them back to their stuff and their party, players are alerted that this is the goal to escape.

Scenario A: All members are left as is with no knowledge that the hunters come but otherwise are left as is.

Scenario B: Members are mind wiped so no spells remain memorized, also have no knowledge of what is to come from the hunters.

Scenario C: Members know they will be hunted, but keep their memorized stuff.

Scenario D: Members know they will be hunted, but lose their memorized stuff.

B and D are just rude to wizardly types for sure, but since that was one of the classes discussed in the what if scenario...


Well, I would definitely start searching for the black costume.


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fictionfan wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
I think it would be interesting to switch over to a 20th lvl wizard or the like taking a bath and getting jumped but I know the outcome is much different (spoiler everyone dies or the spellcaster gets away)
The 20th-level diviner auto-wins initiative, casts power word kill on the 10th-level caster, then flies out of the tub (because overland flight was already running) and casts quickened greater invisibility. What's left of the 10th-level party gets a set of actions (maybe invisibility purge from the cleric and the pre-buffed flying fighter moves up and attacks once?) and then Mr. 20 gets to decimate the rest of them.
If we are assuming that the fighter does not have his weapon then we have to assume the wizard does not have his spell component pouch.

Power Word Kill does not have a material component, and neither does greater invisibility.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.

300 is pretty high for a gearless fighter, probably by about half. Our NPC had 174. A PC might have a little higher scores (depending on the combat style and build), but I'd be surprised to see him too far above 200.


Coriat wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.
300 is pretty high for a gearless fighter, probably by about half. Our NPC had 174. A PC might have a little higher scores (depending on the combat style and build), but I'd be surprised to see him too far above 200.

Well my not-particularly-optimized Fighter had 214 hp. And that is with neither Toughness nor the FCB bonus hp. It shouldn't be difficult to get him to 250~280


Lemmy wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.
300 is pretty high for a gearless fighter, probably by about half. Our NPC had 174. A PC might have a little higher scores (depending on the combat style and build), but I'd be surprised to see him too far above 200.
Well my not-particularly-optimized Fighter had 214 hp. And that is with neither Toughness nor the FCB bonus hp. It shouldn't be difficult to get him to 250~280

Full FC HP and toughness would only account for another 40. That's really all you can do to optimize HP build wise, barring some heavy investment in the Deathless feats. Besides that, you can pump con... and most of that is through gear. 300 definitely sounds high while naked.


chaoseffect wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.
300 is pretty high for a gearless fighter, probably by about half. Our NPC had 174. APC might have a little higher scores (depending on the combat style and build), but I'd be surprised to see him too far above 200.
Well my not-particularly-optimized Fighter had 214 hp. And that is with neither Toughness nor the FCB bonus hp. It shouldn't be difficult to get him to 250~280
Full FC HP and toughness would only account for another 40. That's really all you can do to optimize HP build wise, barring some heavy investment in the Deathless feats. Besides that, you can pump con... and most of that is through gear. 300 definitely sounds high while naked.

You can also get a higher Con. Depending on the buld, an initial Con of 16 or even 18 is not unlikely. My character started with 15, then wished it up to 20. But I do agree that 260~280 is probably the ceiling if we use average rolls. IME, thogh, many games will use some rule like "Roll for HP, round up to half if lower than that".


Coriat wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.
300 is pretty high for a gearless fighter, probably by about half. Our NPC had 174. A PC might have a little higher scores (depending on the combat style and build), but I'd be surprised to see him too far above 200.

If you use retraining it is not unrealistic. Con 18(is 4 from a tome)+4, Toughness+1, and 10 pr level gives (4+1+10)x20=300. But without retraining it need some serious tinkering.


Retraining isn't in the Core book, and I've rarely seen it actually being used in general.


Icyshadow wrote:
Retraining isn't in the Core book, and I've rarely seen it actually being used in general.

I ditent realize this was core rule book only. And it is in the core line. But dont med me if i spoke out of turn.


I wasn't saying this should be Core only, but I figure we might as well use things that are actually in commonly seen on tables...

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