A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


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Title says it all. Lets assume he is naked (or at less without his weapon in hand). What are some good strategies for the fighter.

See this thread for reference to the source of the question.

Scarab Sages

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Take improvised weapon feats, and beat them with the bathtub until they die. NOTE: I have a PC in my current game who would do exactly this at a 1d12 17-20/x2 ratio due to some table interpretation of loose ruleage. And he would furiously focus his power attacks.

He'd probably still die tho. The 10th level party eating through 50-100hp per round will likely have 1 or 2 guys survive the bathtub iteratives.

The Exchange

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Assuming he's been caught with his pants down figuratively (as well as literally), a lot depends on his feat choice. Improved Dirty Trick, Catch Off-Guard and (yes) Combat Expertise all have their place in this situation. Killing somebody with a loofah is hard work, but think of the bragging rights!

It's worth noting, too, that unless someone in the party can beat his (walloping!) CMD in order to trip or grapple him, a slippery naked man has a definite edge in running to find some backup before he starts throttling people with his towel.


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His options are:

1.) Die.

2.) Fight (and die).

3.) Flee (and probably die).


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He disarms a party member of their weapon (preferably a weapon he has training in) and then begins a total party kill.

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Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Title says it all. Lets assume he is naked (or at less without his weapon in hand). What are some good strategies for the fighter.

I'll do ya one better:

Suppose that while the Fighter20 is bathing, a Warrior1 with the same (starting) ability scores grabs all his gear and puts it on, then attacks the Fighter20. Now the Warrior only misses on a 1 (with his +5 keen falchion or whatever) and the Fighter only hits on a 20 (and provokes an AoO with each attack thanks to a lack of IUS).

What are the odds of the fighter actually winning the fight?


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Short answer: he probably shouldn't, since his circumstances are only a single step better than "coup de graced in his sleep."

Though if he's an archer fighter with a high initiative, he might manage to get himself to somewhere he's less immediately screwed ASAP.

(Bonus points if he kills an attacker with their own weapon before he goes down. It's only -4 on your disarm attempt to just take soemone's weapon and start using it, after all. My fighter in Jade Regent occasionally killed enemies with their own weapons just to demonstrate how outclassed they were in hand-to-hand.)

(Extra bonus points if he's actually a grappler and starts using his opponents as living shields.)

Even most L20 1 to 9 casters - i.e., the characters least dependent on their gear - would die under these circumstances. It'd actually come down the character's build.

Though the better question - you're a level 20 fighter. You're probably a general at minimum. What the heck are you doing alone with no gear, and just taking a bath where anyone can target you?


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Without any gear....he's likely screwed by the spellcaster in the party which will mind control him or hit him with some sort of will save.

Without any gear on he has a base save of 6. If he's lucky he might have a +2 wisdom modifier. So he'd have a will save of about 8.

Without trying the wizard's save will be 20. So the fighter has a 40% chance of successfully saving. If the wizard goes HAM and quickens a spell (through a rod) the chance of success is less than 20%, if I'm doing my math right.


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Jiggy wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Title says it all. Lets assume he is naked (or at less without his weapon in hand). What are some good strategies for the fighter.

I'll do ya one better:

Suppose that while the Fighter20 is bathing, a Warrior1 with the same (starting) ability scores grabs all his gear and puts it on, then attacks the Fighter20. Now the Warrior only misses on a 1 (with his +5 keen falchion or whatever) and the Fighter only hits on a 20 (and provokes an AoO with each attack thanks to a lack of IUS).

What are the odds of the fighter actually winning the fight?

Oh, THAT's easy. The warrior just uses grappling (base CMB of, say +26 (assuming STR isn't wished up), vs. a CMD of maybe... 10 + 1 BAB +5 Deflection + 4 Dex + 6 Str.. .. 26? So only fails on a 1?), pins the guy (who only has a +7 CMB vs. naked fighter's CMD 37 or higher, so needs a natural 20 to escape), and then strangles him to death for 1d3+6 damage a round. And then takes his gear back.

Huh, that's that one fight out of Game of Thrones, ain't it?

Editing for more math!

Scarab Sages

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Best case scenario, The fighter is an unarmed fighter, and grapples the wizard to shut down spellcasting while giving himself DR 10/- against everyone.

He still dies from action economy inbalance, but he takes one or two down with him.

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Zhangar wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Title says it all. Lets assume he is naked (or at less without his weapon in hand). What are some good strategies for the fighter.

I'll do ya one better:

Suppose that while the Fighter20 is bathing, a Warrior1 with the same (starting) ability scores grabs all his gear and puts it on, then attacks the Fighter20. Now the Warrior only misses on a 1 (with his +5 keen falchion or whatever) and the Fighter only hits on a 20 (and provokes an AoO with each attack thanks to a lack of IUS).

What are the odds of the fighter actually winning the fight?

Oh, THAT's easy. The warrior just uses grappling (base CMB of, say +26 (assuming STR isn't wished up), vs. a CMD of maybe... 10 + 1 BAB +5 Deflection + 4 Dex + 5 Str.. .. 25? So only fails on a 1?) and strangles the guy to death.

Except that if he doesn't have Improved Grapple, he'll provoke, and any damage he takes from the AoO applies as a penalty to his CMB check.

So when the Warrior hits for 2d4 + 10 + 5 ⇒ (3, 4) + 10 + 5 = 22 because he only misses on a 1, what are the fighter's odds of succeeding on the grapple?


Ah, so now we're assuming a fighter who only took feats that deal direct damage and nothing else?

For example, if the fighter isn't a complete meathead and actually has improved disarm, than he starts with just taking his damn sword back.

Edit: And if he has no feats for that, than he just does iterative combat maneuvers. The first one performed by General Meathead the Int 8 Fighter gets stopped by the AoO.

The second one still passes on a 10 (or lower?) or so, assuming he went straight for a disarm at -4 instead of a trip.

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Zhangar wrote:

Ah, so now we're assuming a fighter who only took feats that deal direct damage and nothing else?

For example, if the fighter isn't a complete meathead and actually has improved disarm, than he starts with just taking his damn sword back.

Yeah, but you're missing the important point:

A Fighter20 defeating a Warrior1 who stole his gear actually requires consideration of specialized tactics.

I dunno about you, but I find that pretty bothersome.


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We're assuming the Fighter takes Feats you'd expect the average Fighter to have.

Considering Disarm is worthless 90% of the time, it's unlikely.

If we were talking about a Brawler instead, then the scenario would be a bit different.

Grand Lodge

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You don't need feats to use combat maneuvers against an inferior foe.

My alchemist has disarmed ranged attackers thanks to them not threatening. All you really need is to make them spend their first AoO on something irrelevant, then use your action to do what you really want when they can't take another attack on you for it. Combat Reflexes isn't that common a feat.

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Seems to me combat maneuvers are indeed the way for our fighter to go - he still has all his inherent ability score bonuses, so he can probably rock an AC in the low 20s with Combat Expertise and fighting defensively. Grappling an enemy caster would make spellcasting nearly impossible, requiring concentration checks in the 40s even for spells without somatic components. Take the -20 to grapple without gaining the grappled condition and drown the wizard in your bath. Disarm could easily get him one of the party's weapons. You can use the water for cover and to break line of effect for spells.

This all presumes he isn't built for improved weapon use, in which case his chances go way up as he can probably drop a foe each round with a spare rock lying around.

Really the big foe here is action economy being against him, and the fact that so much of any character's punch at lv 20 is due to gear. Even a lv 20 sorcerer jumped naked in the bath might have things come down to initiative.

Oh wait you didn't specify race. My fighter 20 is a pit fiend. Done.

Edit: another possibility is that the fighter has up a contingency procured by using a wish item. Also, most fighters (and everyone) will wear their stat boosters in the bath because taking them off means waiting 24 hours for them to become permanent bonuses again.


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We assume nothing and everything for the sake of entertainment value

Edited: spelling and because I thought I double posted lol


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He a. Dies in the surprise round.
B. Flips the tub and sunders the floor.
C. Jumps out of the window.
D. Surrenders


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@ Rynjin - I'll have to very strongly disagree about the value of disarm. Disarm is fantastic for trivializing combats against other martials.

I'll agree it's usefulness certainly varies on a campaign by campaign basis. Disarm is only of limited use in, say, Carrion Crown, where an overwhelming number of mobs are weaponless undead. But in, say, Jade Regent, where nearly every enemy that matters from the end of Book 2 onwards has a high Str score, imp. critical, and either has a 15-20/x2 crit range or an 19-20/x4 crit range, disarming can outright save your ass from getting splatted. (About half of the entries of the Obit thread can be summed up as "an oni critted somebody." =P)

It's usefulness does depend on enemy composition, but useless 90% of the time? Really?

@ Jiggy - I don't know. MOST classes would have to go "what the hell is this?" and have to start planning if they were stripped of all of their gear and it was handed to some schlub who can still use it. (For example, most casters are still going to get hurt and have to scramble if some schlub gets to buff to the gills with their consumables and then starts blasting them with their own wands and staves.)

I'm trying to think of a good mythological equivalent, but I don't think King Arthur ever had someone else try to kill him with Excalibur. I suspect he WOULD have to use special tactics if that occured, though =P

@ Korthos - okay, sunders the floor wins.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

You don't need feats to use combat maneuvers against an inferior foe.

My alchemist has disarmed ranged attackers thanks to them not threatening. All you really need is to make them spend their first AoO on something irrelevant, then use your action to do what you really want when they can't take another attack on you for it. Combat Reflexes isn't that common a feat.

A geared up 10th level Fighter isn't really that much if an "inferior foe" to a naked 20th level one.

AC wise, the Fgt 20 has like 12 or 13 depending on Dex. He has about twice as much HP. His attack bonus is at maximum +29.

The Fgt 10 is probably rocking something like 18 Dex, +3 Full Plate, +3 Ring and Amulet, and a Jingasa for 33 AC, and a CMD 35 with no other factors (Gloves of Dueling, for instance, or common buffs like Haste).

The Disarm chances are reasonably low, as are his chances with an improvised weapon or unarmed strike. Worst case scenario for the Fgt 10 he has about a 40% chance of succeeding at either, while he is effectively guaranteed to hit each time.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
A geared up 10th level Fighter isn't really that much if an "inferior foe" to a naked 20th level one.

Did I say such a thing?


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His bling-necklace is +5 Folding Plate. Combined with his Nat Armor+5 so his AC will be far from a 10 base.

His Greatsword has calling, so with a "To Me Eviscerator!" he's fully armed and armored again.

His Spell Turning Ring is still worn in the bath, so the wizard will have an unpleasant discovery.

Just a few random thoughts...

Additionally of course...his level 18 cleric cohort who is on guard for him while fully armed and armored has a great chance of dealing with that 10th level group.


Unless you're saying your comment was irrelevant to the thread topic, yes.

Grand Lodge

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Rynjin wrote:
Unless you're saying your comment was irrelevant to the thread topic, yes.

I believe a 1st level warrior was also discussed. Would you like to do a breakdown on that one as well?


Yeah, General Meathead should start with a softer target than the enemy L10 fighter if he's actually trying to fight. (Gloves of Dueling basically give a +6 to CMD vs. disarm and sunder, since they up weapon training bonuses on top of the +4 they grant).


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Round 1, he picks up his signal horn from the grass and blows the alarm.

The party has 1-3 rounds to flee before the scry and fry hits.

P.S. I like this idea, let's run it with characters from the NPC codex.


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NPC Codex wrote:
Str 26, Dex 17, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10

Ha! The NPC Codex L20 fighter is General Meathead! That's great.

(Though the L1 schlub in General Meathead's gear will not nearly be as well off as he'd expect. Totally getting strangled to death.)


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Let's look at this a different way. Which martial characters wouldn't be screwed in this situation?

Brawler, obviously: Uses Martial flexibility to gain the exact combination of feats she needs to win (disarm, grapple, catch off guard, whatever).

Monk: a monk is nearly as well-defended stark naked as with all his gear, although less powerful due to not having his amulet of mighty fists. On the other hand, if said amulet and its chain were made of a metal that can be immersed in water unharmed, such as gold, I might expect him to keep it on in the bath.

A cavalier would be just as bad off as a fighter, except with fewer feats.

A gunslinger is, if anything, even more gear-dependent than a fighter. Against the level 1 warrior, she might have a chance, since the warrior probably wouldn't have proficiency with the firearm and it might misfire.

A swashbuckler at level 20 might have had occasion to invest in unarmed strikes and Snake style to allow his unarmed strikes to work with the class abilities related to piercing weapons, so in that case would be better off than the normal fighter, and also gets bonuses to AC, and could use parry to block attacks.

A slayer is about as disadvantaged as a fighter.

A ranger is either equally screwed as a fighter or has a significant advantage if he's taken the Natural Weapons fighting style and used it to get permanent claws. This might not count since we're talking about pure martial characters, but there are archetypes of ranger that give up spellcasting.

Ninja: Easy. She uses Hidden Master, which does not provoke an AoO because it's an SU ability, and can no longer be seen even if the foes prepared with see invisibility or true seeing. She can then either bug out and get her gear, or use the 20 rounds of un-detectable invisibility to sneak-attack the crap out of her attackers.

Rogue: If she's chosen certain talents (such as the ones that copy Ninja abilities) she might be able to take them out, otherwise acrobatics to get away would be the course of action.

Barbarian: DR would help protect her, and if she took the rage powers that give her natural attacks she would be able to brutally ravage the attackers.

Samurai: Same as cavalier. He ded, liek so ded.

Paladin: If the attackers weren't evil, she'd be in trouble. If they are, smites could help protect the paladin while working out a way to escape or fight back.

I'm seeing a trend here. All the characters who wouldn't be in serious trouble have some kind of supernatural enhancement.


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@ Paladin - I think the naked L20 paladin would be in pretty good shape, honestly - healing every round for a flat 60 points + status removals, or hitting people with her hairbrush for like 1d3+24-6ish per swat before power attack if smite works.

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Zhangar wrote:
@ Paladin - I think the naked L20 paladin would be in pretty good shape, honestly - healing every round for a flat 60 points + status removals, or hitting people with her hairbrush for like 1d3+24-6ish per swat before power attack if smite works.

If you're ambushing a paladin in the bathtub, smite probably works. ;)


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Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
A slayer is about as disadvantaged as a fighter.

Slightly less so... Studied Enemy isn't weapon dependent.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
A ranger is either equally screwed as a fighter or has a significant advantage if he's taken the Natural Weapons fighting style and used it to get permanent claws. This might not count since we're talking about pure martial characters, but there are archetypes of ranger that give up spellcasting.

Ranger probably has an Animal Companion and access to spells such as Instant Enemy and Bow Spirit.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Rogue: If she's chosen certain talents (such as the ones that copy Ninja abilities) she might be able to take them out, otherwise acrobatics to get away would be the course...

Rogues is probably really freaking screwed (as usual :P)... But getting Ninja Ki Powers could indeed save her.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Paladin: If the attackers weren't evil, she'd be in trouble. If they are, smites could help protect the paladin while working out a way to escape or fight back.

In addition to spells and Smite evil, the paladin can take a piece of wood and use Divine Bond to turn it into a +5 Keen club. His AC would still be awful, though (unless he ahs the right spell prepared)... Although that is not such a problem for someone who can basically triple their hp with LoH.

Silver Crusade

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20th level fighter with max perception and trait to make it a class skill hears them coming and evades the ambush.

Though honestly 4 people jumping someone naked in the bathtub, I kinda hope the four would win. Just makes sense to me.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe the Paladin and Ranger would be without their Divine Focus, hindering them a little bit. The Ranger's animal companion should be able to wreck-face, though.


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I like the list of martials in this situation. I'd like to entertain the idea of practically any class.. Hell anyone in this situation (the idea of a Balor taking a bath makes me giggle)

To the caught off guard, the surprise rounds probably aren't fun, especially if the attackers have thoroughly researched the victim and Oceans 11'd their attack.

But access to magic definitely tips the survivability scales for the bathing.

Silver Crusade

Actually planned for this with my Inquisitor. Bane and judgment work just fine on bare hands. Not to mention Divine Power and a plethora of divine combat spells.

Paladin, think you are on to something with that supernatural ability thought.


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Jiggy wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Ah, so now we're assuming a fighter who only took feats that deal direct damage and nothing else?

For example, if the fighter isn't a complete meathead and actually has improved disarm, than he starts with just taking his damn sword back.

Yeah, but you're missing the important point:

A Fighter20 defeating a Warrior1 who stole his gear actually requires consideration of specialized tactics.

I dunno about you, but I find that pretty bothersome.

No, he doesn't. A fighter has 4 attacks, 5 if he chooses to twf since penalties don't matter as long as he gets a 20 which auto hits.

He needs to land ONE blow on the warrior to drop him, as he has like 10hp. The Fighter has WELL over 100. The warrior will have 1 attack per round and might do something like 10-15 hp in damage even with equipment. Disregarding crits.

In the minute it takes for the lvl1 warrior to make 10 swings that might get the fighter down, the fighter will have made 50 swings at least ONE of which will be an automatic hit that will drop the warrior.


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To be fair... I think it's reasonable to assume that the character would at very least have his rings and amulet, since those don't get in the way of bathing too much... If they are devout followers of some faith, they will probably have their divine focus as well (although those aren't necessary to cast every spell, IIRC).

That said, I do understand that that's not the point of this discussion.

Ranger

Another thing that's worth mentioning about rangers... Barkskin lats 10min per level. At 20th level, that means the Ranger has it on for at very least 170 minutes... That's almost 3 full hours. It's quit possible that he buys, say... A Lesser Rod of Extend Spell (over 5h!) or even Magical Knack (and now he has over 6h of Barkskin per casting... And can use his amulet slot for something else!)

Also, stuff like Bloodhound can warn him of the ambush with some antecedence (and lasts hours!). Tree Stride is similarly awesome (and it too lasts hours, or until spent)!


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How is he tree-striding from a bathtub? Are we assuming he lives in a tree house? I suppose that isn't a bad assumption, since tree houses are freaking awesome.


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I had pictured the Fighter bathing in a lake or something, not in an actual tub.


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Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
How is he tree-striding from a bathtub? Are we assuming he lives in a tree house? I suppose that isn't a bad assumption, since tree houses are freaking awesome.

I assumed he was bathing in a lake or something... Bun in any case, he can probably take a few steps and reach a tree, then teleport away to safety.

EDIT: NINJA'd by 2 seconds.


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Disarm the fighter, then sunder everything the wizard and rogue are carrying. Grapple the wizard; when they teleport away, grapple the cleric and drown them in the bathtub.


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I would assume the party would be buffed so pretty much every martial is going to flee or die.

Disarm(include other combat maneuvers as needed) is not normally taken by many martials because of that combat expertise feat. Well actually even without it, it might not be taken much, but that feat has stopped me from taking it as a player. I only give to NPC's.

Well the barbarian has a chance with the superstition and invulnerable rage builds, but it needs to take out both full casters(assuming one divine and one arcane) quickly. Just stealing their divine focuses, and spell component pouches(hopefully its not a sorcerer) might be enough.

Then you have one full BAB type, and one skill/combat type. That could be anything from a rogue, to a bard, inquisitor. It could even be another full BAB with skills such as a slayer.

Try to determine who is weaker and take their weapon. Hope it works.


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RJGrady wrote:
Disarm the fighter, then sunder everything the wizard and rogue are carrying. Grapple the wizard; when they teleport away, grapple the cleric and drown them in the bathrumb.

Hopefully, the guys who just ambushed you will stand around doing nothing while you take all those actions. :)


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Xethik wrote:
I believe the Paladin and Ranger would be without their Divine Focus, hindering them a little bit. The Ranger's animal companion should be able to wreck-face, though.

I thought about this too since the ranger might have boon companion, but I don't think it is taking on the entire party especially without buffs. I would assume at least 2 of them can fly, and they can kill it from safety, which also presents another problem for the martial depending on where the fight is taking place. If he is in a building he is trapped so he might have to fight his way out.<---Flight is not much of a factor here. If he is outside it is almost impossible to flee fast enough.


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. Give him the Martial Master archetype.

Quote:
At 20th level, a martial master can use this ability to gain the benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action.

At 20th level, the number of feats our fighter has access to is only limited to the number of times he can use Martial Flexibility per day. That gives him a lot of options.

Lets start by establishing a baseline. Power Attack, Combat Expertise and Improved Unarmed Strike. Now he has all the necessary prerequisites to get the most out of Martial Flexibility.

Next, get Improved Iron Will), and a string of Critical feats (blinding, stunning, critical mastery). The Adopted trait gets you Glory of Old. Take Racial Heritage Dwarf to get Steel Soul. Now he should be all but immune to magic from 10th level casters.

When he gets ambushed suddenly his martial flexibility feats go toward Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Disarm and Greater Dirty Trick. Steal a weapon with a good crit range with his high bonus attacks, and Blind/Entangle nearby casters with dirty tricks. Once he has a weapon, switch the feats over to Improved Critical with that weapon. Now he can use all those Critical feats with whatever he grabbed. At that point he should be able to pretty much execute 1-2 enemies a round.

His tactics in this scenario are to control the size of the encounter area. If he's in a small room he will be fine. Combat Reflexes, Lunge or Combat Patrol and Greater Trip keep everyone on lockdown. Toss in Disruptive and Spellbreaker to shut down casters.

If he's in a large area where ranged folks and casters can rain pain down on him, he's hosed. He'll want to run and hide. One trait and 20 skill points will give him a Stealth score that a 10th level group will have a hard time beating. Martial Flexibility grabs Spring Attack and then he can run out of hiding, nail someone (a caster probably) with a heavy hit, keep moving, and vanish again.

Investing full ranks in Perception and grabbing Improved Blind Fight will negate advantages from Invisibility and Displacement.

Really, its all about taking your enemy's gear and suddenly being specialized for it. Those critical feats will give you a roughly 25% chance to completely shut down anyone you hit. That's the bread and butter. The rest is just about mitigating casters.

Flying enemies will be a problem. I recommend being an Aasamar with Scion of Humanity (to still qualify for racial heritage). Then pick up Angelic Wings.

I'm pretty sure a 20th level fighter will still be a big problem. If they can't kill him in one round, he's going to to start adapting and shutting them all down.


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Yeah, specific builds can survive it pretty well. The Martial Master is a good archetype... Mostly because it makes the Fighter less Fighter-ish and more Brawler-ish.


Lemmy wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Disarm the fighter, then sunder everything the wizard and rogue are carrying. Grapple the wizard; when they teleport away, grapple the cleric and drown them in the bathrumb.
Hopefully, the guys who just ambushed you will stand around doing nothing while you take all those actions. :)

That would be convenient, but with decent rolls and positioning, you might be able to do this in three rounds. If the rogue has Combat Reflexes, that could make this more challenging, but probably still doable.


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If we're sticking to the zero gear idea, I'd go with the same basic idea that I just posted, but instead of going with Improved Disarm/ I'd go with Unarmed Strike and all the Two-Weapon Fighting feats with Pummeling Charge.

Use Martial Flexibility to pick up Combat Style Master and Snake Style for extra defense.

Start by taking out the primary caster. Probably take down the pouncer with Snake Style when it moves in to attack you on its turn. Ignore the other caster. Take some damage from secondary DPR. Then charge the other caster.

I'm pretty sure that with the right starting feat stack and the ability to adaptively pick up to 20 feats, this is probably a three-round fight.


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What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RJGrady wrote:
What's all this Improved Disarm stuff? You have a +13 BAB advantage against the rogue. Feat or no feat, he's not hanging onto his weapon.

You Disarm. You Provoke. Rogue hits you for eh damage. All of a sudden, that disarm is unlikely to land due to the CMB modifier from taking damage.

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