Are we really having a 10 page discussion over whether or not a total of 2 less on total saves (on a build that some argue is 'optimal' - and some disagree) is counter-balanced by the revelations?
This assumes there is only 1 'correct' or 'optimum' build for each class, whereas builds and saves totals will vary from class to class. STR builds will always out-damage DEX builds and have comparatively lower saves since Dex increases your reflex save. In fact the base graviton/photon bonuses to saves/damage accentuate this, indicating that this is an intended design.
Other people have posted builds showing how the synergy of photon mode, plasma sheath and flashing strikes build up to a significant advantage in damage over a melee soldier. Whether or not the tradeoff is worth it is ultimately a value judgment. The reason some people have stopped bothering with the discussion is that it keeps being revived by people who insist that there is only 1 'proper' build and then compare that against what they think is the 'correct' build for other classes, and then based on their subjective ideas of what is optimal claim they have objectively proven the solarian is weaker, and then dismiss the views of those who disagree with them.
When you get a 10 page thread over something as subjective and minor as this, it really starts to be an eyesore.
*cough* This is rather tangential, but I do find I kind of look funny at any suggested build that includes "heavy weapon envoy/technomancer". Obviously such builds are *possible*, but when you need three feats *and* an unusual ability score distribution to make it work? Its clearly a *very* divergent build, and shouldn't be treated as some kind of standard. If the answer is "but this is the way to maximize their DPS given only using a single attack!", maybe the question should be "Is that what you should be optimizing for, primarily, in the first place?"
( Especially since heavy weapons almost always suffer in flexibility- being able to spray autofire or blow up an area is nice, *when you want to do that*, but wasteful or outright counterproductive all the rest of the time. )
Please just start a new thread about this and let this thread die. It's been going in so many circles it has more coils than a 10-meter slinky.
Both sides have presented their math. The issue is that Hwalsh has his own views on what a PC should be capable of and the solarion does not achieve it. I think if he tries other classes, he will see that none of the classes achieve what he is looking for. If he finds a class that does, maybe he should play that class. Whereas I think the solarion is fine and will play mine.
It is time to lock this thread. The horse is very dead now.
I am not arguing in bad faith and I am not saying they are incompetent. I am saying that they are trying to have it all and refuse to see that making a solarion requires you to make real choices. I believe that a CHA-based graviton-focused armored solarion is equally viable, but functions completely differently to the melee damage-dealing photon-solarion. The point is that you get to choose a large number of your class features. Finding a combination of stats and revelations that work well together is what I enjoy about the solarion. Even the question of what levels to remain graviton/photon-balanced and what levels to accept imbalance is part of the choice you are given, and there are advantages to each.
Starfinder is hardly the first RPG to come with a combination what I call 'set menu' classes (soldier, mystic) and 'a la carte' classes (solarion). The set menu classes have abilities grouped together and are easier to build but slightly more restrictive. The a la carte classes are for people who like to tweak and customize and find different combinations that work. A by-product is that some combinations do not work as well as others, and you are simply not meant to put everything on the same plate. If that frustrates or worries you, go for the set menus. They are just as good.
I would build my solarian slightly differently with less cha and Wis, more Dex and Str. You can make do with slightly less resolve. But it's a balancing act. You chose different to me, more power to you.
I feel you slightly shortchanged the solarion. At level 10, he gets access to level 11 equipment, which is a 1d6 damage upgrade. This inches his damage a little more ahead of the soldier.
I would not undersell the utility of Ray of light (my first Zenith pick) or supernova. Both are great for what the solarion loves to do - get in the face of the enemy. One gives him the option for a powerful aoe blast, the other means he can instantly pull out once he gets low on health or jump to a hard-to-reach enemy. Soul furnace is a substantial safety net and worth more than a few feats on its own and glow of life could have added another dimension to the solarion's durability. These are not to be glossed over.
These are substantial and real advantages. But for those who disagree and value these things differently to how I value them, maybe the soldier class suits them better. This is a good thing, because it means players have a real choice instead of one clearly stronger option.
I intend to get around it by stocking up on haste armor enhancements. I chose to prioritize being balanced and picked the photon revelations I thought were more valuable. I can see the appeal of stellar rush but it is hardly essential, though I did consider taking stellar rush anyway instead of sunbolt later on.
But anyway, no bearing on the saves issues. So your point is?
If you are going melee, there are enough revelations without save DCs to keep you balanced up to level 20. I even consider them some of the better ones. The revelations that require DCs are usually standard actions anyway, so you already want to skip them since your focus is getting into the enemy's face and wrecking them.
Even putting a decent focus on Charisma, the solarion still edges out ahead with equal will, lower reflex and much higher fort, and slightly ahead overall.
Even if the Ysoki got to use 2 rings of resistance (I wouldn't) he'd only be ahead by a +2 on reflex. I can see how having a reflex of 2 lower but an extra magic item slot and about 300k in credits spells the end of the cosmos for the solarion [/sarcasm].
Personally I would play my ysoki technomancer with 1 ring for fort and consider +13 reflex enough (+15/+13/+15). Giving my solarion a ring as well puts him at a very respectable (+15/+16/+15).
(Edited to reallocate my solarion's enchanements to put his Dex at 20 for max AC in heavy armor. At level 20, admittedly this puts him at 15 resolve to the technomancer's 19, but I see the technomancer as more of a resolve-guzzler than the solarion.)
I think the Technomancer has his own strengths that put him in a different niche to the Solarion, but Nicholas otherwise has the right of it. When you're sunk into using both your magic item slots for rings of resistance, you get locked out of other magic items. When you only have 2 slots, sacrificing one of them is already a substantial loss. It's called opportunity cost.
Did you do your math before making this post? Because while it is true that Technomancers have two bad saves, it's also true that Dex is almost guaranteed to be their secondary save and Con/Wis are easy bump options as they level up, whereas Solarians have to invest in two non save boosting attributes for their class abilities.
Did YOU do YOUR math? Project to level 20. Technomancer maybe has 24 dex at best (start with 15, raise to 20 via levels, 4 enhancement). Your solarion will have at least 18 dex unless you're trying to gimp him deliberately (start with 10, raise 3 times, +2 enhacnement). Their saves are only 3 points apart. Meanwhile if we assume they valued CON equally, but the technomancer got to put his 3rd enhancement in CON. So the Technomancer gets about +4 on his saves total over the solarion from stat allocation. But the solarion gets +6 more on his fort save just by being a Solarion. The solarion comes out ahead on a save that can be seen as more important.
swoosh wrote:
Good job calling out people on that thing that isn't even being argued in the first place! Though I suppose one could argue that range does serve as a small extra layer of defense. Makes those Solarians look even worse though if you consider that a valid argument.
Argument was made earlier in the thread. I disagreed with it then and still disagree. And I don't think range serves as much of a defence in starfinder. Grenades, cannons, spells all work fine at range.
I'm not saying solarions have the best save. I'm saying all classes have their strengths and weaknesses. From what some people have been saying here you'd think that solarions are the only class in the game that will fail their saves. That's what I'm saying is ridiculous - making the solarion out to be a special needs s$@%-case in the saves department when in fact his disadvantage is only slight and made up for to some degree by his class abilities.
If any class has a right to complain about low saves is not the solarion. It is the technomancer.
Technomancers and mystics are the only 2 classes with only 1 good save. For mystics, this is partially mitigated by having a high WIS, which stacked with their good will save means they have 1 less save they need to worry about. They still need to invest in buttressing their fort and reflex saves. Technomancers don't even get that luxury.
I see people whinge about having low saves when they have good progression on 2 saves and I just think "b$$#% please". And I call BS on anyone saying only front-liners need good saves. Nobody wants to be shut down or killed by a failed save.
The trouble is you're again falling into the trap of describing a Schrodinger's Solarian: You can outdamage a soldier and don't need to buy a weapon and have the best AC and have all these awesome spell like abilities too!
Except if you're not buying a weapon you're falling behind the damage curve and if you're pumping your strength enough to play with soldiers a big chunk of those SLAs aren't going to do very much good, not to mention that the weapon and armor are mutually exclusive from each other.
And that's not even getting into any actual issues the class has with its stats being spread thing or being comparatively light on resolve etc.
Hiruma Kai wrote:
Does anyone see any issue with saying on the one hand, Graviton mode is terrible, and on the other hand that being 2 points down relative to a particular Soldier build which has optimized its saving throws is a problem that should be fixed.
Probably because picking up that +2 Reflex is costing a level 10 Solarian 7 points of damage per swing.
Are you saying that being good at some things will mean you're not as good at other things? Wow, we agree! But guess what. Every other class faces that problem in their own way.
The solarion can mix and match his revelations and has a wealth of options to choose from. They play off different stats, so you either dabble in everything (I wouldn't) or allocate your stats to utilize some and accept that others will need to be left out.
Every class has its issues. Scaling EAC means that all rays and touch attacks are highly unreliable unless you have a team that helps you set it up. There are only 2 spell-casting classes but only one of them gets spell focus for free, making it a feat tax for the mystics. Technomancers have far too few hp compared to what level-equivalent weapons can dish out. Operative weapons are weak making it impossible for them to match soldiers or solarions in combat. Soldiers are the most gear-dependent making them sink alot of their resources into upgrading their gear to remain competitive.
Well tough. Build around those while recognizing where they do shine. Soldiers with the same value of gear will outmatch almost every other class in straight melee EXCEPT the SOLARION. Solarion meanwhile has magic powers that it can access at will and a built-in scaling weapon so they only need to worry about armor, or they have the potential to have the best AC in the game if they focus on armor. Technomancers still have the best aoe damage, defensive and utility spells, while mystics hold almost all the save-or-suck spells. Operatives will always be the best skill monkeys in the game.
You want your solarion to have better saves? Take the money that you save on weapons and spend it on a ring of resistance instead. Take a save-boosting feat and the improved version. And then accept that part of game balance is that although you might be able to haste-charge-kill the mystic in 1 round, he also has the potential to shut you down first if you fail your will save. So you need improved iron will but you want to take step-up-and-strike and are upset that you can't have both. Well maybe the point is to make you choose between them.
From my reading of the class, making the solarion charisma-dependent is exactly what keeps from being overpowered. Their powers cover so many bases and give them so much added power and utility that there needed to be some sort of cost. If you think it's crippling, you can make an equally potent melee fighter with a soldier. Just be prepared to fork out for your weapon instead of getting it for free.
I'm not sure why "charisma can mean a strong presence too" keeps being brought up when Lashunta are very clearly of the charisma means physically attractive persuasion. I mean, they could have a commanding presence too, but it's the physically attractive part that was showcased.
This was what I've been responding to.
As for whether the rest of my initial post in this thread is irrelevant, I'd have to agree to disagree.
SwampTing, it explicitly says they look like idealized elves or humans. The key word is "idealized". When someone looks like an idealized version of someone else, it means they look like that someone else, but hotter. It's not remotely ambiguous. It's what the words mean. Lashunta (sorry, female lashunta) are explicitly described as looking like attractive humans and elves.
He is trying to disprove my point about the lack of correlation between CHA and attractiveness. THAT is what he has NOT disproved.
Sure, they are designed to look pretty by human standards. So are elves. Elves don't have CHA bonuses. On average 1/6 of half-orcs do. And by his logic the crone queen I linked earlier should be an absolute stunner with her 18 charisma.
Alot of female elves are drawn to be physically attractive. They have no charisma bonus. Your point?
"Though the women look like idealized elves or humans -save for the twitching antennae sprouting from their foreheads- their men are squat, hairy, and broad-shouldered, with a fierce and confrontational demeanor."
Lashunta are also described as "beautiful and commanding". So I was wrong, the Lashunta women are described as having a commanding presence. I was not wrong in that they are also described as being physically attractive, and it's not just pretty artwork. They look attractive and act attractive, and that is why they have +2 Charisma.
Of course it should be noted that this was in the Inner Sea Bestiary and omitted from People of the Stars, so it is entirely possible it was retconned out.
Elves have no CHA bonus. Humans can have a CHA bonus but are no more likely to than any other stat. Still don't see how you are supporting your point.
You know what? Forget it, this line of conversation is heading nowhere. People will see what they want.
Alot of female elves are drawn to be physically attractive. More so than half-orcs. But half-orcs can get a charisma bonus and elves have no charisma bonus. Your point?
Appearance does not need to mean sexually enticing. The 18-charisma crone queen linked in my earlier post looks badass. I'd be terrified if I saw it in real life. I'd cheer if I had one fighting on my side. In no circumstance would I get a boner for it.
The point from my earlier post is that this should not even be an issue. It doesn't need to be an issue. Don't make it an issue.
But I agree about the more clothes thing. That's not just Lashuntas. More believable clothing and armor for ALL female characters. THAT is something I will 100% get behind.
1. In pathfinder charisma is tied more to force of personality and social sensitivity than looks - just think of the number of undead with high charisma. This thing (link) has 18 Charisma. If that's sexually attractive to you... to each his own but it ain't attractive to me.
2. There are physiological differences in males and females even in humans. That's why we have men and women compete separately in sports. That's just a biological fact. There are still women who can kick my ass any day of the week and bench twice what I can. That doesn't change the fact that nature generally gives men more muscles. I personally also think that nature gives women better brains (link), but that is less quantifiable and remains my subjective view.
3. They are an alien race with antannae, which suggests they have similarities to insects. Since dimorphism is common in the insect kingdom, I have no trouble with it being reflected in an insect-like race. Do you realize that if Lashuntas were a real species rather than a fantastic invention alot of the comments here could be offensive to them? Let aliens be aliens tyvm. For this same reason, I also have no problem even if Paizo flipped it around and swapped the male and female dimorphic traits so that females were stronger and males more charismatic. That's ok - they are NOT HUMANS. If we can accept that two-headed trolls exist, we can accept that there are other races of humanoids that are very different from us. How about embracing diversity in our aliens?
4. There is no need to look for a PC/non-PC agenda in everything especially if it ain't there to begin with. Some of us play games to take a break from the insanity of the real world and would like to not be reminded of PC issues in games.
I was referring to the part where you said the spell does not require you to be a sylph and then listed ways a non-sylph might get access to the spell.
In PFS, the spell is available specifically only to characters of the Sylph race. Non-sylphs can scribe it in their spellbooks if they wanted, or maybe they could even get it in a ring of spell storing, but they are simply unable to cast it.
John Compton wrote:
Even were the human to scribe the wayang spell, it would be bragging rights and nothing more; this process would still not open up the spell for use by the PC. With the exception of one boon I can think of, there's not a way for a PC to learn another race's race-specific spells from the ARG.
At my table, I'd also rule that only a Sylph would be able to use the spell as it interacts specifically with their unique physiology. Like I said, they are a 6RP race with a CON penalty. The ARG gave them access to a special trick. It's their thing. Let them have their thing.
As a more general rule, always respect the GM - outside of PFS, literally everything is subject to GM permission.
Cevah, that's still subject to GM permission. It wouldn't fly at my table, and it wouldn't fly in PFS.
Way I see it, tying it to race is what makes it work from both a balance and flavor perspective.
Balance-wise, you're giving it to a 6RP race with a CON penalty. They have enough trouble from regular attacks. Unless a GM actually wants to kill the player's sylph character, I don't see why he would get bent out of shape over this. It's hardly an encounter-ending power, and a Sylph that thinks he can gimp on defences just because he has this spell available it either going to run out of lower-level spells very fast, die very fast, or both.
Flavor-wise, they're already partly made of air. It should take far less power to momentarily turn a Sylph into a semi-gaseous state than a human, and forget about the oread. And by the way oreads get Stone Shield, which in my view is far more abusable because it grants cover (which prevents attacks of opportunity AND allows you to make a stealth check) and lasts for 1 whole round. Put it up as a swift action before casting another spell or take a move action to stealth and then 5ft step out to sneak attack. I've even had a player use it in response to a pit trap to buy themselves a round to cast fly. But then again, that's the oread's thing and I think they should be allowed to have their thing.
As for windy escape, since it's an immediate action, anytime before damage is rolled or before a critical threat is confirmed is fine.
A player is bringing a kineticist/jedi-wannabe to my game, and my rules-knowledge on them is not the best.
Does an elemental kinetic blade benefit from:
Favored enemy
Divine favor/power
sneak attack
Thanks. :)
It should benefit from all of those, but in most cases gaining them is going to require multiclassing out of kineticist and losing progression, so there's an inherent trade-off. Of course, if it's gestalt, all bets are off!
Actually, my apologies, this was the important ability to ask about:
Finesse Training (Ex) wrote:
At 1st level, a rogue gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier. The rogue can select a second weapon at 11th level and a third at 19th level.
He was thinking of getting divine favor through an ioun stone, favored enemy human from the dedicated adversary feat, and finesse training to get his dex and con to damage. Does that work?
Edit: I think I just found my own answer - no because he does not add his strength bonus to begin with, even with a physical damage kinetic blade.
What happens if I start playing Eyes of the Ten, but have a level 13 chronicle waiting for my character?
I have a character at level 12 that I want to play Eyes of the Ten with.
I am also planning to run Rasputin Must Die.
Must I play Eyes first? What happens if I run Rasputin Must Die (sanctioned for level 13-15), assign the GM credit to my level 12 character, then start playing Eyes?
This game is being run on the Paizo boards by PBP, and we're still at the mission briefing. We're in high-tier and would like a level 9, 10 or 11 character to join us in taking down Krune.
He attacks them with his magnificent natural weapon! The big one he always has at the ready. As the party members avert their eyes, he disarms the party member with the largest weapon and proceeds to take down the party one by one, both weapons swinging freely.
If the fighter is a she, she distracts them with her glorious assets, then whilst the male members of the party are fascinated, she disarms the party member with the largest weapon and proceeds to take down the party one by one. Male party members get a penalty to their CMD to escape a grapple and a bonus to maintain a grapple on her equal to her charisma mod. The bonus also applies to unarmed and grope touch attacks. If she had a charisma penalty, the party members avert their eyes instead.
If the character in question has a negative charisma modifier of -2 or more, party members must save each round or be nauseated. A successful save makes them sickened instead.
The above effects are sight-based, and blind characters are immune unless the scene is for some reason described to them.
No, the demon can have me. In fact, I'll go ahead and throw in the towel in general. I've expended hours in this conversation, as have you, and I feel like we've really gotten nowhere. We've had some good back and forth and I'll admit, evangelist doesn't seem as broken as I thought to begin with, but I still think we shouldn't allow early entry. And even if your opinions have changed, they haven't changed enough that we've made any headway in reaching a consensus.
All we've done is expose further flaws in the balance of the system in general. And I guess of everything is so messed up, what's the harm of early entry into yet another PRC? It's a discussion I don't care to continue. I feel like I have better things to do with my time at this point.
Perhaps you'll find a tetori willing to throw down with the balor, but not in Core Campaign, which is where I'll be spending my vacation from the nonsense I consider SLA early entry. I won't have to worry about evangelists, early entry or otherwise over there.
Wise words from a cooler head. I'm done here too. This whole exercise was largely pointless.
Well, Jiggy was proposing to do a "side by side comparison with a similar build" and claiming that any such comparison would show that the difference was not great. I've given him something to try to prove his point against.
200+ damage at +18 or more to hit on the first round, and from second round onwards even better to-hit and damage if the target from round 1 still lives. Also from round 2 onwards they are receiving spell support from a secondary caster.
If I had more time I'd probably do the monk as well, but I suspect that we'd also find that the evangelist monk would gain more from getting the 2nd tier ability from Irori at level 9 than any similar unarmed build could get at the same level. For reference, we're talking damage increase from 1d10 (avg 5.5) to 2d8 (avg 9), for a +3.5 damage to each punch as well as penetrating some DR. And I'm VERY certain even less unarmed warrior builds can hope match the utility gained at level 12 by the irori monk/evangelist.
But the best part? You say a +4 bonus to a caster's stat isn't a big deal. How about a +8? One of the tattoos the Iroran evangelist gets at level 9 can be used as a swift action for a +4 sacred bonus to WIS, which would stack with the untyped bonus he could give himself at level 10. Zen archers, Druids, Clerics, Shamans, wild-blooded celestial sorcerers... nope, all classes that need the boost badly.
1. You're assuming both that you hit with every attack, and that the target has 0 damage reduction. Also that you get to pounce against every opponent. Many opponents have defenses in place at higher tiers to prevent you from freely charging every first round, and that they don't have larger reach than you for things like Trip on an AOO, or just killing your AC in some cases. Don't forget spells. Under the perfect circumstances you can do massive damage, but author's have made it difficult to allow you to do that in the content from recent years. I can think of bosses that put a wrench in this plan...
It's hardly optimised for this specific purpose. I've left most of my wealth unassigned, have not factored in any spells and have not even used up all the feats on either the hunter or the animal companion. Also, alot of the time you have time to pre-buff before boss-battles in PFS. You have time to prebuff. This solves your DR problem. There's a feat that allows your natural attacks to count as cold iron AND silver, and hunters get access to communal feather step and communal spider climb to help circumvent obstacles. I also can't stress enough that they also get 2 grab attacks at very substantial bonuses. It's a bare-bones build with resources left to spend in defence and versatility, and I already sacrificed some damage for defence and versatility by choosing the grabbing lion instead of the extra attack from the deinonychus. So even if there is DR, you are likely to deal enough to still make it hurt, and even if that is not enough, you have a very good chance of having the target grappled whilst you still get to cast spells or swing a sword at them. Defence and versatility have not been neglected.
As for the stat increases, I'm just adding it to Walter's points about stat increases. The Iroran evangelsit kicks it up a notch. As I said, if you have time to prepare, and you often do in PFS, you're going in hard.
I meant to say 9th level of evangelist, though I did misread the tattoo as one of the ones that could be activated as a swift action. Even so, that's only 1/9 of the ability. There's also the ability to go ethereal
It's also +4 perception, will saves and potentially even AC if you dipped monk or took snake style. And no other wisdom build gives you that and restoration as a spell-like ability (i.e. no costly component).
Once a week is still going to work out as once a scenario, and some scenarios are resolved in a single in-game day with no time to rest and recover anyway.
Well, Jiggy was proposing to do a "side by side comparison with a similar build" and claiming that any such comparison would show that the difference was not great. I've given him something to try to prove his point against.
200+ damage at +18 or more to hit on the first round, and from second round onwards even better to-hit and damage if the target from round 1 still lives. Also from round 2 onwards they are receiving spell support from a secondary caster.
If I had more time I'd probably do the monk as well, but I suspect that we'd also find that the evangelist monk would gain more from getting the 2nd tier ability from Irori at level 9 than any similar unarmed build could get at the same level. For reference, we're talking damage increase from 1d10 (avg 5.5) to 2d8 (avg 9), for a +3.5 damage to each punch as well as penetrating some DR. And I'm VERY certain even less unarmed warrior builds can hope match the utility gained at level 12 by the irori monk/evangelist.
But the best part? You say a +4 bonus to a caster's stat isn't a big deal. How about a +8? One of the tattoos the Iroran evangelist gets at level 9 can be used as a swift action for a +4 sacred bonus to WIS, which would stack with the untyped bonus he could give himself at level 10. Zen archers, Druids, Clerics, Shamans, wild-blooded celestial sorcerers... nope, all classes that need the boost badly.
do the gauntlets in a suit of armor count as weapons? the problem is that leather gauntlets would be more like cestus. and gauntlets from padded armor would be oven mitts.
Many times I have wanted to punch someone whilst wearing oven mitts. Oven mitts can be weapons if worn by the right person. Especially if they are SPIKED OVEN MITTS!!!
1. I was concerned about feats more than prestige classes.
Okay, so you want to make deviations from PFRPG rules purely as a safety net against the possibility of future authors forgetting about them when writing feats? Seriously?
Quote:
2. The basis is in the preceding lines of the post you responded to. You didn't spot it. Look at it again.
You said a lot of things, but none of them seemed to be clearly identifiable as a basis for claiming that there was an issue.
Quote:
3. By your own definition of power creep, early access to the evangelist class would in most cases result in power creep because of the way aligned class works.
And that is okay. Power creep is only bad if the endpoint is too high. If the power crept from "acceptable" to "still acceptable", then the power creep is A-OK. If the power crept from "underpowered" to "acceptable", then the power creep was actively good and kudos to whoever implemented it. If the power crept from "underpowered" to "still underpowered", then we need MORE power creep.
The ONLY time we need to intervene against power creep is if the power is creeping from somewhere to "overpowered". And try as we might, we've not yet found any such examples.
So is early entry a form of power creep? Sure. Is that bad? Not that I've seen any evidence for, no.
The person seeking a revision/deviation of the rules is you. The rules were already set with the aim of maintaining balance.
Your answer to point 3 shows that you are aware that you are asking for a direct boost to the power of the Evangelist prestige class, a prestige class which had previously received recognition on the boards as being a mechanically strong prestige class.
Because of the way aligned class works, there is literally no decent build involving 3/4 BAB or 1/2 BAB classes and the Evangelist prestige classes that is NOT made stronger by granting access to the class earlier. In fact, if your build involves 1/2 BAB classes leading into the Evangelist prestige class, your build is made stronger in virtually every way by the early access.
How bad would a Zen Archer Monk be if they went into this class at level 4? As a follower of Erastil at level 12 they would get Wis to damage with the longbow, getting wis to hit from level 3 in there class features.
For being an Evangelist at all, he's at -3 to hit at that level due to reduced BAB. That's about the same attack/damage trade ratio as Deadly Aim (which is in turn a worse payoff than two-handed Power Attack). That doesn't seem problematic to me.
Would he? Flurry of Blows keys off of Monk Level, not BaB, correct?
The Evangelist's Aligned Class ability says to count Evangelist as the base class to determine what class features you gain (come to think of it, does that mean that scaling class features in general don't scale?), and furthermore says that BAB (and HD and saves) are an exception to Aligned Class. So one way or the other, it sounds to me like you're stuck with Evangelist BAB.
Which would be more than off-set by the addition of the zen archer's wisdom to attack and damage. at that level, a decent zen archer's wisdom would be at least 24, meaning he trades 3 BAB for +7 to attack and damage per hit. Seems to me that there's a net gain on attack rolls and an absolute gain on damage. You've given it to him 2 levels earlier. Check your definition of power creep again.
1. I was concerned about feats more than prestige classes.
2. The basis is in the preceding lines of the post you responded to. You didn't spot it. Look at it again.
3. By your own definition of power creep, early access to the evangelist class would in most cases result in power creep because of the way aligned class works.
1. "Overpowered" by whose standard? If we went by such a subjective standard, we could just as easily say that wizards should be banned once they reach level 9.
2. Substantively, what earlier access means for PFS is that the second tier divine boons see alot more play since they come in at level 9 rather than level 11. Since characters tend to be retired after level 11, we're looking at about 3 times the amount of use out of the tier 2 boons, and often at lower sub-tiers. More power at lower levels...what was the definition of power creep again?
3. We are also looking at earlier access to the spell-like abilities of the first tier divine boons. For example: hypothetical aasimar has a spell-like ability that counts as an arcane spell (daylight). He qualifies for evanglist at level 4, and at level 6 gains a 3rd level divine spell as a spell-like ability (e.g. Erastil-prayer). At 6th level, regardless of his aligned class or first three class levels, he now qualifies for feats and prestige classes as if he could cast 3rd level divine AND arcane spells. Even if there isn't an option that could exploit this now, writers for Paizo need to then be made aware of this exploit (and it is an exploit) to avoid granting abilities earlier than expected.
4. The history of the views on this topic seem to have been:
We don't want prestige classes to overshadow base classes (early decision by the designers).
We'll allow early access to prestige classes since they don't tend to be that strong.
Oh wow, a prestige class worth taking for mechanical benefits! (Common view expressed on the boards here when it was released.)
We should be consistent and allow early access to all prestige classes instead of limiting only the evangelist.
---------- Spot the problem
I think this thread is actually a good reason for Mike Brock to consider completely scrapping the idea allowing spell-like abilities to count as spell-casting ability for the purpose of qualifying for feats and prestige classes.
Hey guys, this looks like it's becoming more of a pointed back and forth argument than it really needs to be. Let's dial back the grar here.
Quote:
... than say Chris Lambertz telling us how she would run things.
My official stance is: a lot more glitter. A whole lot more. Always.
New FAQ
Official FAQ wrote:
In the evangelist Prestige Class from Inner Sea Gods, replace all of its abilities with the following: Ubiquitous Glitter (Sp): An evangelist spreads glitter everywhere she goes. She may cast glitterdust 1/day per evangelist level. At level 10, she can instead use this ability at will.
It is a strange world to me when +2 BAB is not considered a significant boost.
+2 to hit
+2 CMB (on all maneuvers)
+2 CMD
40% closer to next iterative attack
50% closer to next power attack bump
earlier access to feats with BAB requirements
and several more
Yeah...If I could get all that in a feat, I'd take it on every martial character I had.
A player obtained the boon "the Kirin's debt repaid" (25% discount on 1 item purchase), and has the master of trade vanity (10% discount on an item purchase), and wants to use both on the purchase of the 1 item.
Can he stack both discounts? If so, are the discounts multiplied or added? Does he pay (90% x 75%) of the item's cost or 65% of the item's cost?
Shouldn't Kyle Baird be banned from playing it since he knows the scenario inside out? Conversely, I reckon he should also be allowed to GM it an unlimited number of times for credit.
I wondered about this too. Technically, once you are 'beyond morality', no improved familiar will join you, since you have NO alignment, you cannot qualify for ANY improved familiar with an alignment restriction. Even neutral improved familiars will not join you, since having no alignment does not put you anywhere relative to neutrality (distance from here to nowhere was a good illustration, thanks ruemere).
