A 20th level fighter is bathing: how does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?


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Icyshadow wrote:
I wasn't saying this should be Core only, but I figure we might as well use things that are actually in commonly seen on tables...

It that case i think retraining is very likely, It have been used at every table i have played at since the book with it came.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
chaoseffect wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

That usually means some sort of natural attack or IUS or Catch Off Guard or the Birthmark trait or Eschew Materials. Or grabbing some sort of SLA I can use as a backup. By level 5 at the latest. (I usually want at least one solid contingency in place by level 3.)

I find it strange that anyone thinks that this is unusual. For me it's non-negotiable.

And I haven't had a single character that hasn't found this flexibility useful.

When you say you want a back up plan in place by level 5 at the latest, I wonder what kind of build you are running. By that level most classes would be lucky to have the bare necessities of their build in place: "Prepare for rare occasion X" feats are a luxury as each one you take displaces something that will actually be useful the majority of the time.

Part of what I'm saying is that I don't find this to be that rare of a situation. By level 5, I expect my character to have been in a "no gear" situation at least once, probably twice. (Fancy dinner party, infiltration, nighttime ambush, prison break, etc)

Looking through my characters, my low gear/no gear contingencies include:
Bladed scarf proficiency + Prehensile Hair hex + Vanish Trick (Arcane Trickster)
Flowing Monk levels for IUS + defensive options + general awesomeness (Magus)
Eschew Materials + Wings (Sorceror)
Racial Bite attack + Birthmark (Cleric)
Catch Off Guard (from Order of the Land) (Cavalier)
Kitsune Magic Tail feats (Fighter)

That doesn't even count my Lunar Oracle with the Wrecker curse that is designed around natural weapon attacks and Sunder -- cause that's not a contingency.

I also rarely dump Charisma and try to have enough ranks in Diplomacy or Bluff that I can defuse or delay.

Most of these come from class features or racial abilities, rather than feats, so they don't delay my build much, if at all. But again, I consider "be prepared" to be part of my core competency. Someone in the group has to do it -- it might as well be me.


Cap. Darling wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
I wasn't saying this should be Core only, but I figure we might as well use things that are actually in commonly seen on tables...
It that case i think retraining is very likely, It have been used at every table i have played at since the book with it came.

Huh... different experiences, then. I've allowed players and been allowed by GMs to change certain feats and spells... But I have never seen anyone ever use the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules. Specially not to maximize hp.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Trimalchio wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


A Wizard without his spell component pouch can still cast spells without components and benefits from pre-buffs he himself can provide.

The aforementioned Extended Shapechange which can cover his ass for 400 minutes while he goes skinny dipping, for example.
eprovide those things himself by a class option.

How does a wizard prepare spells in the morning without his spellbook?

If in this scenario the wizard can have an extended shapechange, why a fighter doesn't have wind walk seems bizarre to me and smacks of a 'fighters can't have nice things because I say so" mentality. Why can't the fighter benefit from buffs his gear can provide especially if these benefits continue well after he removes the gear.

I agree with this. Why is it when comparing the naked wizard vs. the naked fighter the fighter isn't allowed to have anything but his own innate class features, while the wizard is allowed to have a bunch of things that cost money in addition to his class features?

If the wizard is allowed to have his 1500gp circlet focus needed for the shapechange spell, why isn't the fighter allowed to have one of his backup weapons within arm's reach?

Why is the wizard in this scenario always assumed to have access to every spell in the game? Through pure level advancement a wizard will only have learned ~12 1st level spells, 4 2nd through 9th level spells, plus 4 additional spells of any level.

People mentioned the wizard having things like golem protectors and bound outsiders to protect him. Planar Binding is in fact free, but outsiders bound by the gate spell and golems cost money. If the wizard is allowed to have spent money on things like these, why isn't the fighter allowed to have spent money on having his home protected by a permanent mage's private sanctum - which prevents the scrying that likely allowed the party to catch him naked in the bath in the first place - and a permanent alarm spell to warn him of intruders? Not to mention some permanent symbol spells - to which only he knows the passwords - around his home for additional protection?

No wonder fighters get such a bad rap around here; it seems on the Paizo forums they truly are never allowed to have nice things.


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Xexyz wrote:
I agree with this. Why is it when comparing the naked wizard vs. the naked fighter the fighter isn't allowed to have anything but his own innate class features, while the wizard is allowed to have a bunch of things that cost money in addition to his class features?

Spells are the Wizard's class feature.

Quote:
If the wizard is allowed to have his 1500gp circlet focus needed for the shapechange spell, why isn't the fighter allowed to have one of his backup weapons within arm's reach?

The idea here isn't that the Wizard has his components with him in the bath, it's that he can cast an array of awesome buffs on himself with extremely long durations. Shapechange itself would last 200 minutes for the caster, 400 if extended. Other buffs even have longer durations and only need to be cast once a day or maybe even day and half if extended. It's just basic preparation, like combing your hair in the morning and brushing your teeth.

Quote:
Why is the wizard in this scenario always assumed to have access to every spell in the game? Through pure level advancement a wizard will only have learned ~12 1st level spells, 4 2nd through 9th level spells, plus 4 additional spells of any level.

Spells are incredibly cheap and are what Wizard's sink their wealth by level into instead of a fancy magic weapon and armor. Chances are the Wizard may not have all the spells in the book, but he at least has all the good ones.

Quote:
People mentioned the wizard having things like golem protectors and bound outsiders to protect him. Planar Binding is in fact free, but outsiders bound by the gate spell and golems cost money. If the wizard is allowed to have spent money on things like these, why isn't the fighter allowed to have spent money on having his home protected by a permanent mage's private sanctum - which prevents the scrying that likely allowed the party to catch him naked in the bath in the first place - and a permanent alarm...

I agree with you here as it's really outside the bounds of the thought experiment and best left out.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
chaoseffect wrote:
Spells are the Wizard's class feature.

Yes, spells - in a generic sense - are a class feature, but knowledge of every spell in existence is not. Anything beyond what the wizard learns via leveling costs money. Also, if the wizard wants to cast spells with expensive components, he's going to have to come up with the money. Money beyond the 2d6 x 10 gp he starts with is not a class feature.

chaoseffect wrote:
The idea here isn't that the Wizard has his components with him in the bath, it's that he can cast an array of awesome buffs on himself with extremely long durations. Shapechange itself would last 200 minutes for the caster, 400 if extended. Other buffs even have longer durations and only need to be cast once a day or maybe even day and half if extended. It's just basic preparation, like combing your hair in the morning and brushing your teeth.

Except shapechange has a costly 1500gp focus needed in order to cast the spell. If the wizard is assumed to have already spent the money to have it in the first place, why is the fighter not allowed to have spent money to on a similar buff he had cast on him (or cast himself using UMD) before he got into the bath?

chaoseffect wrote:
Spells are incredibly cheap and are what Wizard's sink their wealth by level into instead of a fancy magic weapon and armor. Chances are the Wizard may not have all the spells in the book, but he at least has all the good ones.

What's the difference? The wizard spends his money on spells (among other things) in order to utilize his class abilities, while the fighter spends his money on magic weapons & armor in order to use his class abilities. That spells are cheap in comparison to magic weapons & armor is irrelevant.

My point is that if people want to compare apples to apples, then they should do so. If people want to have the wizard still count as naked [for the purposes of this discussion] while having protections that cost money (golems, bound outsiders, expensive buffs like shapechange), then the fighter should also be allowed to have spent money on protections and also still count as naked.

Edit: Actually, even that's playing by a different set of rules. If the wizard is assumed to have memorized spells and cast buffs before he stripped down and got into his bath - because it would be prudent to do so - then by the same reasoning I would say that the fighter - being equally prudent - would keep a backup weapon within arm's reach in his bath as well.


Xexyz wrote:

Yes, spells - in a generic sense - are a class feature, but knowledge of every spell in existence is not. Anything beyond what the wizard learns via leveling costs money. Also, if the wizard wants to cast spells with expensive components, he's going to have to come up with the money. Money beyond the 2d6 x 10 gp he starts with is not a class feature.

Except shapechange has a costly 1500gp focus needed in order to cast the spell. If the wizard is assumed to have already spent the money to have it in the first place, why is the fighter not allowed to have spent money to on a similar buff he had cast on him (or cast himself using UMD) before he got into the bath?

If we're going with the ridiculous bath scenario, then both the wizard and the fighter have full WBL, but just not on them at the particular moment of the fight. As for why the Wizard has his long term buffs on and the Fighter doesn't, it's because for the Wizard they are a renewable resource. Every day he wakes up and casts a number of spells on himself and he's good. Mindblank, Mage Armor, Enchantment Foil, Overland Flight, maybe even a couple daily castings of Extended Shapechange. It's all reasonable for a Wizard to have on himself at any given point in his life because that is just what he does. The buffs being there have nothing to do with the bath at all.

On the other hand, everything similar the Fighter would have would be in consumable form. There's really nothing stopping him from blowing thousands of gold per day in consumables to have buffs up at all times, but really, do you think that's going to happen? That's why the Fighter would be disadvantaged in this area; his stuff costs money per use, so for the most part he wants to save it until he knows he will need it and if he knew he would need it in the bath then he would probably have just bathed completely clothed, defeating both the purpose of his bath and the thought experiment.

Quote:
What's the difference? The wizard spends his money on spells (among other things) in order to utilize his class abilities, while the fighter spends his money on magic weapons & armor in order to use his class abilities. That spells are cheap in comparison to magic weapons & armor is irrelevant.

You asked why it is assumed that the Wizard has access to all the spells worth knowing. I gave you the answer.


Lemmy wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Coriat wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
The fighter would start readying actions once the enemies are lagging behind. The mage is the biggest danger—with around 300 HP, he can afford to take a few more shots from the archer while he makes the mage waste some precious slots.
300 is pretty high for a gearless fighter, probably by about half. Our NPC had 174. APC might have a little higher scores (depending on the combat style and build), but I'd be surprised to see him too far above 200.
Well my not-particularly-optimized Fighter had 214 hp. And that is with neither Toughness nor the FCB bonus hp. It shouldn't be difficult to get him to 250~280
Full FC HP and toughness would only account for another 40. That's really all you can do to optimize HP build wise, barring some heavy investment in the Deathless feats. Besides that, you can pump con... and most of that is through gear. 300 definitely sounds high while naked.
You can also get a higher Con. Depending on the buld, an initial Con of 16 or even 18 is not unlikely. My character started with 15, then wished it up to 20. But I do agree that 260~280 is probably the ceiling if we use average rolls. IME, thogh, many games will use some rule like "Roll for HP, round up to half if lower than that".

I don't think starting 18 Con is that common. Possible, but it would fall in the "surprised to see" category I mentioned in my post.

I did glance at Rynjin's posted thing calibrate, and you've got 20d10+80 (+100 with favored class in hp) to work with there, giving you ~195 with average rolls, 215 with the favored class, 235 if you also used one of the discretionary feats on Toughness.


A lot of that is due to the argument that fighters aren't fun to play or become a secondary since the large majority of classes are spellcasters or have spellcasting plus other special abilities built into them. I'm not quite sure when fighters became a bad option to play, since they are as varied as spellcasters can be when it comes to options. ESPECIALLY when you compare them to 1st and 2nd Ed fighters. Combat feats run the gamut and fighters can use any of them, from fighting styles to improved disarm and the like. DPS seems to be the only measure the forums take for any type of build, not maneuver or specialty weapon builds at all. Optimization is the rule of the day, I guess. Maybe they should create an optimization sub-board and peel it off from the advice board, since so many people ask what they should do to get the biggest oomph for their buck.


stormcrow27 wrote:
A lot of that is due to the argument that fighters aren't fun to play or become a secondary since the large majority of classes are spellcasters or have spellcasting plus other special abilities built into them. I'm not quite sure when fighters became a bad option to play, since they are as varied as spellcasters can be when it comes to options. ESPECIALLY when you compare them to 1st and 2nd Ed fighters. Combat feats run the gamut and fighters can use any of them, from fighting styles to improved disarm and the like. DPS seems to be the only measure the forums take for any type of build, not maneuver or specialty weapon builds at all. Optimization is the rule of the day, I guess. Maybe they should create an optimization sub-board and peel it off from the advice board, since so many people ask what they should do to get the biggest oomph for their buck.

There are so many things wrong with this that I'm not going to even try to sort through it. I'll leave that to someone else.


If DPR were truly the sole measure of a good character, then fighters would be considered good. It's because DPR is not the sole measure of a good character that fighters' good DPR isn't their salvation.

As for combat options, it's better to have them when you are actually playing the game and in combat than when you are leveling up a character. As far as the "fighters are a versatile class with lots of options" - rather than repeat myself, may I link an older post?

(Especially since it's on-topic for that thread and a bit off topic for this one)


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The fighter class is flexible. A given fighter? Uh...well, aside from that one archetype, no. Maybe if mages had to pick two or three spell schools and were restricted to solely those schools, there could be a comparison. But they don't, so there can't.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Maybe if mages had to pick two or three spell schools and were restricted to solely those schools, there could be a comparison. But they don't, so there can't.

Not even then. Not even with one school, depending on the school. Looking at you two, Conjuration and Transmutation.


Ah, but the wizard still only gets a few spells per day. I'd say it evens out on a flexibility front.


Nor should it be. However, that's all I ever see people designing martial types around. Whether a summoner synthesist build, a pouncing barbarian with lion totem, or the paladin two-hander power attack, the fighter gets left out in the cold. A fighter can do just about all of those, and if you use tactics combined with a good set of feats, then you can defeat the enemy with both your DPR and your skills.

Apparently I must have different experiences than a lot of the board, because the fighters in any game I have played did extremely well, no matter what they chose as a focus. Roleplaying a tactician or a lore warden is a lot of fun, or as the face of the group via intimidate/etc.
Of course what I find funny is when people complain about granting spell-like abilities to martial types as being somehow bad, since it means they're intruding on the oh so sacred ground of casters.


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*shrugs* There's a reason my group's homebrewed fighter patch has powers like "you never provoke an AoO for attempting any type of combat maneuver," and it's not because I think fighters ought to ignore everything but damage.


Anyway, back to the thought experiment. If a 20th level human fighter is bathing without any gear or protective stuff, and gets attacked by a 10th level party, hopefully he has high enough initiative to get out another door. If he built a bathroom with only one door, then the 10th level party can kill him if they can target him with spells and get a martial in said room. If it's a 5x5 room, one martial, or a 10x10 room, then you can get two martials and a spell tosser in . Average will saves will probably be a +7 or 8 from Wisdom, so a hold monster at DC 20 (assuming no spell focus in enchantment) has a 65% to 60% chance of hitting on the first try. Coup de grace a couple of times and he's dead. This is pretty much true of any 20th level martial (sans spellcasting types like rangers, paladins, bloodragers), though barbs could rage if they weren't surprised and jump the Will save up a bit more.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
chaoseffect wrote:

If we're going with the ridiculous bath scenario, then both the wizard and the fighter have full WBL, but just not on them at the particular moment of the fight. As for why the Wizard has his long term buffs on and the Fighter doesn't, it's because for the Wizard they are a renewable resource. Every day he wakes up and casts a number of spells on himself and he's good. Mindblank, Mage Armor, Enchantment Foil, Overland Flight, maybe even a couple daily castings of Extended Shapechange. It's all reasonable for a Wizard to have on himself at any given point in his life because that is just what he does. The buffs being there have nothing to do with the bath at all.

On the other hand, everything similar the Fighter would have would be in consumable form. There's really nothing stopping him from blowing thousands of gold per day in consumables to have buffs up at all times, but really, do you think that's going to happen? That's why the Fighter would be disadvantaged in this area; his stuff costs money per use, so for the most part he wants to save it until he knows he will need it and if he knew he would need it in the bath then he would probably have just bathed completely clothed, defeating both the purpose of his bath and the thought experiment.

I have a problem with this argument because it relies on assumptions about the nature of the thought experiment, but I can't really refute it because the parameters of the thought experiment haven't been more clearly defined:

1. Is a parameter of the thought experiment that the victim is devoid of all gear & preparations?

2. Or is a parameter of the thought experiment that the victim is devoid of gear, but allowed to have preparations?

It just seems to me that the arguments people have been making have been with the assumption that the fighter's situation is parameter #1, while the wizard's situation is parameter #2. If they're operating under different rule sets, and the wizard's rule set is more favorable to him, then of course he's going to have an advantage.


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Quote:
I have a problem with this argument because it relies on assumptions about the nature of the thought experiment, but I can't really refute it because the parameters of the thought experiment haven't been more clearly defined:

People are bringing up long term buff spells and such in an attempt to show that a typical wizard could not just survive, but defeat his attackers.*

This is true, but the reason the thought experiment doesn't cover this is that it's irrelevant. The OP just wants to see if a typical 20th level fighter has any likely way to survive the attack without all that 20th level gear.

For a wizard version of that, you don't need jack for buffs, you just need teleport, a low level (for a 20th level wizard) spell with no material component. The parameters of the thought experiment itself are as clear as they need to be for the wizard version. How does he survive? Teleport. Easy.

If you want not just the thought experiment, but extra credit and a gold star, that's the only reason you would have to bring any long duration spells or anything into it.

*:
Because, you know, a wizard is the only relevant comparison to the fighter's relative impotence, rather than, say, pointing out that with the fighter's fellow martials, a ranger could keep washing his hair while his animal companion class feature wins the fight for him, a barbarian could Superstition his way past any spell and actually does have the 300 (+) raging hit points to tank it out, and a paladin could Divine Grace his way through the spells while undoing every hit with maximized lay on hands


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*(continued):
Hey, you didn't mention rogue!
Actually, the rogue could probably get away. He'd hear the enemies coming, duck underwater, and hide there for a while. This scenario actually works well for a rogue because it requires two skills he'll probably have and he's, y'know, twentieth level.

Can we nerf rogues now? They totally invalidate the expert.


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There is absolutely nothing clear about the parametres of the thought experiment. It was left very vague, and people have been filling in the blanks - mostly to the disadvantage of the fighter.

First off, I'd do away with the assumption that the fighter has to be designed as a super specialised high level commando whose sole purpouse is pure DPR, and who leaves the job of covering his weaknesses exclusively to nonpresent party members or gear completely out of his reach at the time. While some people are happy with builds like that, others are not, and what some will consider a ludicrous choice of feats makes perfect in-character sense for the next one.
I mean, we are still playing an RPG. What a backstabbing Dark Elf or even a more mundane solo-running lone ranger prepares for will be vastly more sophisticated than what a party-based mercenary thinks of, no matter the level. This is doubly so if the lone wolves actively expect people to try an assassinate them.

I'm also a bit surprised at people so easily dismissing Combat Expertise. Seriously, are your parties fighting level-appropriate enemies exclusively? Does the entire world magically levelup around you? Because I have always been able to make good use of feats (and spells) like that to stave off attrition issues with the far more numerous low-level mooks. Honestly, my own fighter would probably have all sorts of feats that many here apparently consider suboptimal. In fact, my Dark Elf did have IUS, Blind-Fight, Lunge, and some CM feats that I don't recall anymore. All without suffering much in my Greatsword efficiency, which was more than sufficient to dish out the damage against appropriate encounters. It's one of the niceties of the fighter - unless you are going for very feat-intensive skill trees, you have enough spare feats to pull off quite a bit of versatility.

Other facts that would need definement: The location, and the attackers. Who are they? What do they know? Where are they, exactly? Have they actively prepared this ambush and know precisely what the fighter can do? Have they, perhaps, even carefully selected the location and are attacking from out of reach? This is an extremely difficult scenario for any target, geared or not, and vastly different to a tenth-level party randomly stumbling over a bathing Ftr20 in a small bathroom that they weren't expecting, and certainly not knowing who or what he is.

Making broad assumptions on the fighters / attackers / general scenarios makeup to support general statements like gear dependency is rather irritating.


Oh man I didn't even consider what a 20th level rogueish type would do in this situation.


Lemmy wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
I wasn't saying this should be Core only, but I figure we might as well use things that are actually in commonly seen on tables...
It that case i think retraining is very likely, It have been used at every table i have played at since the book with it came.
Huh... different experiences, then. I've allowed players and been allowed by GMs to change certain feats and spells... But I have never seen anyone ever use the Ultimate Campaign retraining rules. Specially not to maximize hp.

Just as an experiment I done the math on the retraining of HP.

Assuming he retrains at 20th level, it will cost 600GP per HP at most.

10X LevelX days required to retrain (3 days)

Assuming the horrible unluck it would take for the fighter to roll a 1 on every hit die for 19 levels that's only 102600GP and 513 days of their life for MAX HP.

Sovereign Court

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A) If enemies go first, Fighter is "wading at least chest deep" or at least "floating" in tub which means he has Improved Cover against them (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves).

B) Fighter ducks down at the bottom of the tub.

C) The water surface now provides TOTAL COVER vs. attacks from land, unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Total cover means you lose line of effect. In addition, you can't make an attack against a target that has total cover. A barrier that blocks line of effect also blocks line-shaped spells. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin). Underwater combat rules also say that thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Fire spells stop at the water's edge and become ineffective against the bather.

D) In summary, every party should carry a full bathtub with them, as ducking underwater in a bathtub renders that bather nigh invulnerable. Your fighter is safe in his bathtub, as long as he holds his breath for a long time :)


http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/shatter.html

Shatter tub, fighter is now accessible to spells and is covered in hot/lukewarm water. May have soap in eyes and be blinded.
If the fighter is smart enough to have an adamantium tub, you can disintegrate the tub and have the same result.

Or use resilient sphere to move said tub away towards the party and then end the spell. Telekinesis also works great for moving said tub.


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It might simply be heavier than 10 lb / level, or minorly magical, precluding shatter. Or it's not actually a tub. Like a natural pond, lake, the ocean, a river, or a pool in an extravagant bathhouse - and thus, not necessarily subject even to disintegrate - which requires CL11 or 12 in most cases by the way, and thus out of reach for most level 10 parties without consumables such as scrolls.

Circumstances matter.


chaoseffect wrote:

If we're going with the ridiculous bath scenario, then both the wizard and the fighter have full WBL, but just not on them at the particular moment of the fight. As for why the Wizard has his long term buffs on and the Fighter doesn't, it's because for the Wizard they are a renewable resource. Every day he wakes up and casts a number of spells on himself and he's good. Mindblank, Mage Armor, Enchantment Foil, Overland Flight, maybe even a couple daily castings of Extended Shapechange. It's all reasonable for a Wizard to have on himself at any given point in his life because that is just what he does. The buffs being there have nothing to do with the bath at all.

On the other hand, everything similar the Fighter would have would be in consumable form. There's really nothing stopping him from blowing thousands of gold per day in consumables to have buffs up at all times, but really, do you think that's going to happen? That's why the Fighter would be disadvantaged in this area; his stuff costs money per use, so for the most part he wants to save it until he knows he will need it and if he knew he would need it in the bath then he would probably have just bathed completely clothed, defeating both the purpose of his bath and the thought experiment.

Fighter's certainly aren't the best class but the way people insist fighters must be played makes them much worse than they are. Pathfinder revolves around procuring and exploiting magic, why the fighter can't join the wizard in this task is ridiculous.

the extended shapechange is particularly bias, first a greater extend rod is 24.5k and even so only lasts 800 minutes, no Wizard I know wastes precious 9th level spell slots on 10 minute / level buffs unless he has some reasonable expectation it will be useful, does he cast shapechange in the morning, the afternoon or at night?

In this scenario we should be limiting ourselves to 24 hour buffs or 1 hour / level buffs and there are plenty of magical means a fighter could employ to access them without using consumables. A particularly audacious level 20 fighter could even have a staff of the planes and be benefiting from having his own guardian and buffer come bath time, insisting only wizards can make use of renewable resources is just silly and gimps a fighter before he even has a chance, delegating him to playing some other game that isn't pathfinder.

I think the more reasonable scenario is that the fighter has the classic 3 for allies but for whatever reason they aren't in the immediate vicinity and he is also being caught without his gear. And if we retain the example of bath time the fighter will still be wearing his belt and headband, seriously by the rules no one ever takes those off once they put one on unless they are swiping one out for an upgrade.


If we are talking about a fighter being part of an adventuring party, it's even entirely reasonable that he could (does not have to, but could) have a permanent telepathic bond with the other party members for all sorts of situations - including ambush or capture circumstances.

You can't analyse situations like this in a vaccuum, especially when it concerns high level characters of _any_ class.


400 minutes is nearly SEVEN HOURS. It's hardly short duration, and also hardly a "waste". Shapechange is a ridiculously versatile spell. If I were playing a class that could only cast Shapechange, I'd still be pretty happy with it. And THAT duration is assuming you have a CL of 20...most 20th level casters have stuff that boosts that even higher. At CL 21 you've got a full 7 hours. 22 or 23 is doable and boosts that to nearly 8.

You have access to the form of nearly any monster in the book as a FREE action. Need to fight? Dragon.

Need to survive? Troll.

Need to escape? Earth, Air, or Water Elementals let you get away in any terrain.

Need to infiltrate? Nobody expects the sparrow to be a spy. Even less people expect the sparrow to turn into a motherf~#$ing dragon all of a sudden.

Just feel like schlepping around as whatever you please on a whim? Take your pick of half the Bestiary.

It doesn't matter when you cast it Cast it in the morning, it lasts all day. Go ahead and cast another one right before you go to sleep if you want.

There are not a whole ton of spells worth the 9th level slot. Shapechange is one. Wish is another (and even then I'd take Shapechange over Wish). Overwhelming Presence is grand for certain builds (well, any build with a high save DC). Aroden's Spellbane is awesome. Magnificent Enclosure is kinda neat. Gate is rad.

And then what else?

Disjunction? Gm's hate you...and use it back. Avoid.

Imprisonment/Freedom? Mostly for NPCs.

Prismatic Sphere? Fun, but not great.

Power Word: Kill, Weird, Foresight? All pretty trash all things considered.

When there's not a lot to choose from you've got plenty of slots to cast the ones that ARE.

Sovereign Court

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stormcrow27 wrote:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/shatter.html

Shatter tub, fighter is now accessible to spells and is covered in hot/lukewarm water. May have soap in eyes and be blinded.
If the fighter is smart enough to have an adamantium tub, you can disintegrate the tub and have the same result.

Or use resilient sphere to move said tub away towards the party and then end the spell. Telekinesis also works great for moving said tub.

can't disintegrate at 10th level! haha! Sir! ha-ha! ;)

PS: this is firmly tongue-in-cheek, as I am fully aware of the ridiculousness of not being able to stab someone lying underwater in a bathtub, like not being able to shoot the proverbial fish in a barrel! ;)


And it banks on the character having a particular spell, and a particular feat or magic item, and the appropriate focus at hand.

Whereas, apparently, it is a complete stretch for a fighter to having learned certain feats, being of a particular archetype, or having certain items / abilities at their call.


so does this hypothetical wizard cast his extended shapechange in the morning, the afternoon, or at night? or does he just cast it 3/times a day?

meanwhile our fighter is in the corner crying from being told he must powerattack with a greatsword and UMD isn't meant for mundanes like him.


Not to mention that he can't use any of his leftover feats - given that the typical power attack fighter has a few of them - for anything useful in this particular situation for some reason.


Trimalchio wrote:
so does this hypothetical wizard cast his extended shapechange in the morning, the afternoon, or at night? or does he just cast it 3/times a day?

Hypothetical? This isn't really a hypothetical, because my frickin' Oracle does this.

Shapechange is up all the time, all day, every day. It's THAT good.

You can wake up, brush your teeth, cast Shapechange, and not have to worry about it again until that evening. If you plan on going for more than 8 hours, another casting will get you through the day just fine.


Maybe not hypothetical, but very specific - a wizard might do that.

Or he might not actually know Shapechange. Just like a fighter might have archetypes, feats or other abilities you do not expect.


Perhaps, but a Wizard not knowing Shapechange is about as smart as a 2H wielding Fighter not knowing Power Attack, in my opinion.


Rynjin wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:
so does this hypothetical wizard cast his extended shapechange in the morning, the afternoon, or at night? or does he just cast it 3/times a day?

Hypothetical? This isn't really a hypothetical, because my frickin' Oracle does this.

Shapechange is up all the time, all day, every day. It's THAT good.

You can wake up, brush your teeth, cast Shapechange, and not have to worry about it again until that evening. If you plan on going for more than 8 hours, another casting will get you through the day just fine.

Shapechange only lasts 10 minutes a level, so unless you've got one of those rings that makes a spell last all day or something similar (like using the extend rod that Trimalchio mentioned to get 6+ hours per casting), you WOULD have to recast it repeatedly over the course of a day.

Unless your oracle's got some revelation that's granting 8+ hours of shapechange a day, of course.

Edit: I'm actually honestly curious as to what you're using to get shapechange to last all day, if it's not that ring.


So our caster using 3 level 9 spells, all of a greater extend rod and an expensive focus is ok but mention that the fighter probably has wind walk and you get griping.


Zhangar wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:
so does this hypothetical wizard cast his extended shapechange in the morning, the afternoon, or at night? or does he just cast it 3/times a day?

Hypothetical? This isn't really a hypothetical, because my frickin' Oracle does this.

Shapechange is up all the time, all day, every day. It's THAT good.

You can wake up, brush your teeth, cast Shapechange, and not have to worry about it again until that evening. If you plan on going for more than 8 hours, another casting will get you through the day just fine.

Shapechange only lasts 10 minutes a level, so unless you've got one of those rings that makes a spell last all day or something similar (like using the extend rod that Trimalchio mentioned to get 6+ hours per casting), you WOULD have to recast it repeatedly over the course of a day.

Unless your oracle's got some revelation that's granting 8+ hours of shapechange a day, of course.

Yes, I do need to recast it. Some days.

He's actually a Mythic Hierophant, so I have that Enduring Blessing power, but I often use the ability on other buffs (such as Echolocation...we're fighting the Great Old Ones) and end up re-casting Shapechange.

Trimalchio wrote:
So our caster using 3 level 9 spells, all of a greater extend rod and an expensive focus is ok but mention that the fighter probably has wind walk and you get griping.

Show me the part of the Fighter's class page that says he has spellcasting and we'll talk.

We're comparing what CLASSES can do, not what your Fighter MIGHT be able to do if he had his items on hand.

Realistically, a solid 80% of his wealth is sunk into the Big 6 items and Tomes.

The Wizard, on the other hand, has sunk nearly ALL of that into stuff like Extend Rods and so on. And he doesn't have to pay thousands of gold every day to cast Wind Walk.

It's really not a realistic scenario that the Fighter gets all of this stuff to use every day. Eventually he's gonna run out of cash to fuel his buffs. Meanwhile, the Wizard never permanently runs out of spell slots.

It's why the Fighter fares badly in this scenario. If he were any other class without gear he'd fare better.

Barbarians and Paladins especially are martial characters who could handle this challenge with relative ease. If nothing else, I've seen quite a few people run out of Rage Powers they really want at high levels and take "Beat a m#*%**&#+@&! with another m+!~@%!@@%!~" as a Rage Power for shiggles.


Trimalchio wrote:
So our caster using 3 level 9 spells, all of a greater extend rod and an expensive focus is ok but mention that the fighter probably has wind walk and you get griping.

Possibly because the fighter cannot actually cast it and even if he could it takes 5 rounds to resume wind form. Good luck with that.


Zhangar wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:
so does this hypothetical wizard cast his extended shapechange in the morning, the afternoon, or at night? or does he just cast it 3/times a day?

Hypothetical? This isn't really a hypothetical, because my frickin' Oracle does this.

Shapechange is up all the time, all day, every day. It's THAT good.

You can wake up, brush your teeth, cast Shapechange, and not have to worry about it again until that evening. If you plan on going for more than 8 hours, another casting will get you through the day just fine.

Shapechange only lasts 10 minutes a level, so unless you've got one of those rings that makes a spell last all day or something similar (like using the extend rod that Trimalchio mentioned to get 6+ hours per casting), you WOULD have to recast it repeatedly over the course of a day.

Unless your oracle's got some revelation that's granting 8+ hours of shapechange a day, of course.

Edit: I'm actually honestly curious as to what you're using to get shapechange to last all day, if it's not that ring.

At this level you have the orange ion stone so your caster level is at least 21 and a greater extend rod is pocket change. That's 7 hours per casting.


Jiggy wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Ah, so now we're assuming a fighter who only took feats that deal direct damage and nothing else?

For example, if the fighter isn't a complete meathead and actually has improved disarm, than he starts with just taking his damn sword back.

Yeah, but you're missing the important point:

A Fighter20 defeating a Warrior1 who stole his gear actually requires consideration of specialized tactics.

I dunno about you, but I find that pretty bothersome.

Out of curiousity why is the fighter even taking off all his gear? I mean he's not required to. Magical gear is unaffected by non magical issues such as rotting, dirtying, and rusting. So he may as well just bathe with everything that isn't weapons and armor on and frankly may as well bathe with those too. The assumption that the norms of our universe should apply to the PF universe is rather questionable.


Rynjin wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Trimalchio wrote:
so does this hypothetical wizard cast his extended shapechange in the morning, the afternoon, or at night? or does he just cast it 3/times a day?

Hypothetical? This isn't really a hypothetical, because my frickin' Oracle does this.

Shapechange is up all the time, all day, every day. It's THAT good.

You can wake up, brush your teeth, cast Shapechange, and not have to worry about it again until that evening. If you plan on going for more than 8 hours, another casting will get you through the day just fine.

Shapechange only lasts 10 minutes a level, so unless you've got one of those rings that makes a spell last all day or something similar (like using the extend rod that Trimalchio mentioned to get 6+ hours per casting), you WOULD have to recast it repeatedly over the course of a day.

Unless your oracle's got some revelation that's granting 8+ hours of shapechange a day, of course.

Yes, I do need to recast it. Some days.

He's actually a Mythic Hierophant, so I have that Enduring Blessing power, but I often use the ability on other buffs (such as Echolocation...we're fighting the Great Old Ones) and end up re-casting Shapechange.

Ah, mythic! Yep, enduring blessings will do it. Alright then. Carry on! =D


archmagi1 wrote:

Take improvised weapon feats, and beat them with the bathtub until they die. NOTE: I have a PC in my current game who would do exactly this at a 1d12 17-20/x2 ratio due to some table interpretation of loose ruleage. And he would furiously focus his power attacks.

He'd probably still die tho. The 10th level party eating through 50-100hp per round will likely have 1 or 2 guys survive the bathtub iteratives.

My first Campaign ended with my party of 4 level 9's and 2 level 8's fighting a level 11 necromancer that used Heal for 120 regen health a turn on a level 20 Anti-Paladin. We wiped the floor with them.

My character Brier dealed 3 crits:
First, Disembowled the antipaladin. 127 damage
Second, When he came back to life at full health after the first crit and his arm was glowing so Brier cut it off for 54 damage.
Third, Antipaladin provokes AOO so Brier uppercut slashes him with his greataxe, cutting him in half 134 Damage. He doesn't get back up again.
Brier does insane amounts of damage.

As for the bathing Level 20 Fighter he is totally screwed almost no matter what.


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Too be fair, we should assume any class in this scenario (for whatever reason, you pick) does not have anything that comes from gear, including lingering effects.

In this case, using only class features not reliant on gear (including spell pouches and holy symbols), how would an average character of each class fair?

Right off the bat average Fighters are boned; without a specific build for gear-less combat, I don't see the majority of Fighters surviving this situation.

Rogues built for pure combat are probably boned as well, unless they have Hide in Plain Sight or are able to obtain cover and run.

Most Wizards will Teleport or otherwise magically evade combat in order to Scry-and-Fry the party later.

Clerics.. well that one depends entirely on Domain choice, Feat Choices, and whether or not they have the Birthmark Trait.

Oracles are kinda in the same boat as Clerics, but far better off spell wise since they don't need Holy Symbols.

Swashbucklers, Cavaliers, and Gunslingers are probably hosed the same as a Fighter.

Paladin depends on whether they can Smite; I honestly doubt the Lay on Hands would do more than delay the inevitable.

Monk will be nearly in top form.... so yeah nearly untouchable but only really able to get away rather than sweep the floor with them.

Brawler would be similar to monk, but easier to hit and with adaptable feats.

Honestly, looking at the spread it really feels like even without access to buffs and pouches/symbols most casters are going to fair a darn sight better than a purely martial character.


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gnomersy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

Ah, so now we're assuming a fighter who only took feats that deal direct damage and nothing else?

For example, if the fighter isn't a complete meathead and actually has improved disarm, than he starts with just taking his damn sword back.

Yeah, but you're missing the important point:

A Fighter20 defeating a Warrior1 who stole his gear actually requires consideration of specialized tactics.

I dunno about you, but I find that pretty bothersome.

Out of curiousity why is the fighter even taking off all his gear? I mean he's not required to. Magical gear is unaffected by non magical issues such as rotting, dirtying, and rusting. So he may as well just bathe with everything that isn't weapons and armor on and frankly may as well bathe with those too. The assumption that the norms of our universe should apply to the PF universe is rather questionable.

Honestly, I assume that the fighter is taking off his gear because the actual point of the thread is to discuss how wealth-reliant he is rather than his bathing habits per se.

It's possible that I am incorrect and that the details of bathing routines are actually the more important aspect of the OP's question, and also what everyone else here is more interested in, in which case, by all means continue.


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

A) If enemies go first, Fighter is "wading at least chest deep" or at least "floating" in tub which means he has Improved Cover against them (+8 bonus to AC, +4 bonus on Reflex saves).

B) Fighter ducks down at the bottom of the tub.

C) The water surface now provides TOTAL COVER vs. attacks from land, unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Total cover means you lose line of effect. In addition, you can't make an attack against a target that has total cover. A barrier that blocks line of effect also blocks line-shaped spells. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin). Underwater combat rules also say that thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Fire spells stop at the water's edge and become ineffective against the bather.

D) In summary, every party should carry a full bathtub with them, as ducking underwater in a bathtub renders that bather nigh invulnerable. Your fighter is safe in his bathtub, as long as he holds his breath for a long time :)

Sorry, spellcasters are immune to bathtubs. ;) The fighter can hide from the barbarian, but all that does is give the party sorcerer or whatever complete freedom to mess him up at leisure.

Aquatic Terrain wrote:
A completely submerged creature has total cover against opponents on land unless those opponents have freedom of movement effects. Magical effects are unaffected except for those that require attack rolls (which are treated like any other effects) and fire effects.

Spellcasters ruin everything once again! :p


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Letting one class use a 24.5k item but demanding another only use consumables is hardly a fair comparison.


Quote:


Perhaps, but a Wizard not knowing Shapechange is about as smart as a 2H wielding Fighter not knowing Power Attack, in my opinion.

As said before, circumstances differ. Preferences differ. Even the very same wizard might differ in spell selection every day. Learning and memorising Shapechange once (so he'd still need to carefully consider to just waste it for his bath, or have Focus on-hand) is an entirely different boat than having it up all the time as well. There's even the odd wizard actually choosing Transmutation as his opposite school, as odd as it may sound - that makes Shapechange not very high in priority.

Don't get me wrong, I too, think a wizard has more options for odd circumstances at his disposal - but right now, folks are very actively trying to construct circumstances harshly against a fighter, and even go as war as flat-out dismissing any notion of a fighter selecting more than his Greatsword-DPR feats or similar, while it seems perfectly alright to assume that every wizard knows the perfect spell for the situation, has it prepared, and even carefully buffed beforehand.

While fighters? Fighters are apparently generalised as idiots.

As well, it's still a harsh difference between an accidental encounter, and level 10 enemies that are very knowledgeable about their target and that actually prepared a well thought-out assassination attempt.

And the latter is very, very dangerous for the wizard as well.

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