So I posted my build above here and I was wondering when I should be transitioning into using my unarmed strikes? When I get my 6 BAB?
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Mine (Kitsune Fox variant) has a level of Sacred Fist Warpriest, and as soon as I got to BAB 6 I dropped my 2 levels of Urban Barbarian for more Occultist (because that was the focus, magical fox). So I went from Bite/Claw/Claw to Flurry Full/Full/-5, and then threw on Brawlers enchant on my armor for another +2 attack/damage, and Greater Magic Weapon for another +2/+2. The extra +4 to attack and damage easily made up for the fact that the 3rd attack is at a -5.
How come you didn't just use your normal unarmed attacks and the natural attacks for full/full/-5/-5/-5. I'm not sure but that is how natural attacks work right?
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You can't flurry and use natural attacks at the same time, baring maybe a corner case or two. If I had two-weapon fighting (say, brawler), sure. But not for flurry. So I would lose 1 attack at full bab (-1 from flurry*), but gain 3 attacks at half dex to damage (-4 damage), and without brawling or greater magic weapon (effectively -4 attack and damage). Also technically 2 levels of barbarian and dex rage vs 2 levels of spellcasting (which gets me greater magic weapon so its about a wash)
Given my current stats at level 9*, 24 dex, piranha strike, agile amulet, BAB 6
Flurry: +16/+16/+11 (+6 bab, +7 dex, +2 brawling, +2 greater magic weapon, +2 size, -2 piranha, -1 flurry) for 1d3+15 damage (+7 dex, +2 brawling, +2 greater magic weapon, +4 piranha)
Unarmed: +17/+12/+8/+8/+8 1d3+15 for the first 2, 1d3+7 for the natural attacks
Effectively, against AC 19, they roughly break even. Every point above 19 Flurry pulls farther and farther ahead, to the point where at AC 28 the natural attacks are only hitting on 20, where the Flurry version has 2 attacks that still hit on 12s.
Doing the math on if I had stayed with Urban Barbarian and 3 natural attacks, and raging for +4 dex vs flurry, brawling, GMW, it looks like natural attacks pull ahead only above AC 31. Mostly because the iterative unarmed at that point needs a 19. Just Natural Attacks: +15/+15/+15 1d3+13. However, Natural Attacks vs non-flurry Unarmed, Natural attacks start pulling ahead at AC 23. Again, for me.
Of course at that point you might consider not using Piranha Strike anymore. Also, DR 10 is about the worst thing you can hear. The secondary natural attacks will do zero damage even if you roll max, and the primaries are more then cut in half. Strongly considering (even nerfed) Pummeling Style to help with DR.
*pre-ACG errata and pre-occult release, character is technically level 10, but I have not updated yet since I need to figure out if I am going to go Sha-ir Occultist, or regular. And that I was getting Brawling on my armor from Abjuration Implement Resonance in Occultist, that was changed to minute/focus point spent, so I'll need to spend gold on getting that back. Also, ACG errata says that Sacred Fist Flurry doesn't get to count warpriest levels as full BAB anymore.
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Firebug wrote: You can't flurry and use natural attacks at the same time, baring maybe a corner case or two. the Feral Combat Training Feat
Yeah I guess since most of our damage is coming from the high dex we have it isn't as appealing to have all those .5 damage attacks its just that with my build I have a really huge bonus to hit if I'm in someone else's square(something like +15 with piranha strike active) it might be worth it.
Aspect of the beast does not work with polymorph abilities.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.
The reason is because the feat is an extraordinary ability added to your base form AND a natural attack. Sorcerer's abyssal and draconic bloodlines allow you to spend an action to grow claws therefore they are not on the base form
This has already been discussed earlier in the thread Asheira. Why do you think everyone is taking barbarian levels? :)
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Firebug wrote: You can't flurry and use natural attacks at the same time, baring maybe a corner case or two. the Feral Combat Training Feat Feral combat training just allows you to substitute ONE of your natural attacks instead of an unarmed while flurrying.
So instead of punch/punch you could do punch/right claw
And not Flurry/flurry/Nat/nat/nat
Also for 3 natural attacks you actually need to pick the feat 3 times to use it with all of them
shroudb wrote: Feral combat training just allows you to substitute ONE of your natural attacks instead of an unarmed while flurrying.
So instead of punch/punch you could do punch/right claw
And not Flurry/flurry/Nat/nat/nat
Doesn't look like that to me. While Ultimate Combat FAQ states "you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks", this means it becomes similar to any other monk weapon. Therefore you can use it for every flurry attack you have. You just don't get any extra natural attacks beyond the flurry strikes.
shroudb wrote: Also for 3 natural attacks you actually need to pick the feat 3 times to use it with all of them Unless the player likes variety, he is unlikely to bother. I have a druid PC whose player is cheerfully aiming for the bite/bite/bite/bite, and does not really care about other natural attacks. Short of a midgame houseruling there is little I can do about the ensuing carnage, though it is always possible his theorycrafting goggles have overestimated its potential.
Eh I assume 4 bites are with haste because flurry gets it's 4th attack (it's second extra to be precise) at monk lvl 8, and I don't see a druid losing 8 levels to get an extra attack as worthwhile.
Also don't forget that they will be strx1 instead of strx1.5 due to flurry rules
You can get claw claw bite gore pretty easily as a barbarian so that really shouldn't be a problem.
shroudb wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Firebug wrote: You can't flurry and use natural attacks at the same time, baring maybe a corner case or two. the Feral Combat Training Feat Feral combat training just allows you to substitute ONE of your natural attacks instead of an unarmed while flurrying.
So instead of punch/punch you could do punch/right claw
And not Flurry/flurry/Nat/nat/nat
Also for 3 natural attacks you actually need to pick the feat 3 times to use it with all of them Well, Firebug was mentioning that there was a corner case or 2, and I just offered that as an example.
Taking FCT for multiple natural attacks is even more onerous than you are saying, since it has the prerequisite Weapon Focus, that would be 2 feats/natural attack: awful!
The way I was thinking I would use FCT is in conjunction with a dip into MOMs Monk and take Snake Fang and Monastic Legacy. Then a dip into Ranger and get Improved Natural Attack. You can get your base attack damage up to 2d6 by level 6, and you get to make an attack every time someone attacks you and misses. Boost your Dex with an Alchemal Mutagen. Maybe get a Wand of Shield if your "selected Natural Attack" is Claw. And get yourself a Mithril Agile Breastplate. I have a couple of ideas about what to do next. Maybe take Dirty Trick Feats and acquire Sneak Attack Damage. Take Hamatula Strike so you you do Armor Spike Damage with every hit, then develop Grappling. Or maybe just develop with the longbow, and be really well-rounded.
If I wanted to develop multiple natural attacks as part of a Full Attack Action, I'd do that with Warpriest, then it really would only cost 1 Feat/natural attack. Be a Tengu, take WF for both Claws and Bite, then you can use Sacred Weapon Damage for both. Take a level in White Haired Witch and Weapon Focus Hair. Acquire a Helm of the Mammoth Lord and Weapon Focus Gore. Try not to dip too much, so your base damage increases as fast as possible. But that seems like a pretty solid approach, too.
The point is moot, you can't take Feral Combat Training more than once because it doesn't have a special rider allowing you to do so. Feats can only be taken one time unless they say otherwise.
Tels wrote: The point is moot, you can't take Feral Combat Training more than once because it doesn't have a special rider allowing you to do so. Feats can only be taken one time unless they say otherwise. I was not aware of that, would you please cite that rule?
Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
Feats chapter, feat description.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Tels wrote: The point is moot, you can't take Feral Combat Training more than once because it doesn't have a special rider allowing you to do so. Feats can only be taken one time unless they say otherwise. I was not aware of that, would you please cite that rule? It's one of the many hidden rules that's not explicitly stated. The reason you can't take a feat multiple times is because other feats say you can take the feat multiple times.
The logic is, that, if feats could already be taken multiple times, then the special clauses on the other feats are, essentially, meaningless and a waste of space (unless they have some sort of restriction). However, if feats can't be taken multiple times, then that means the special clauses are actually very special and meaningful.
One presumption indicates a heightened level of incompetence on the designers. Another presumption indicates the designers know what they're doing.
For reference, see feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Spell Focus, Extra Rage Power, Extra Smite, Improved Natural Armor etc. Each of these feats says something like, "This feat can be taken multiple times. It's effects don't stack, instead choose another X" or "This feat can be taken multiple times. It's effect stacks."
Then cross reference this with feats like Extra Channel, or Toughness, or Iron Will, or Spell Perfection. Remember, the "Special" section of feats usually, or often, modifies the 'general' rules of the game. Such as a Monk being able to select a feat without pre-reqs using his bonus feats, or a Barbarian gaining special uses of a feat.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
Feats chapter, feat description.
Yes, the general trend in all the rules is that similar kinds of bonuses from similar sources do not stack. What that means, though, is that you would hardly ever want to take the same Feat twice, not that you can't.
Tels wrote: It's one of the many hidden rules that's not explicitly stated. The reason you can't take a feat multiple times is because other feats say you can take the feat multiple times. That sounds a lot more like an assumption than a citation.
Core Rulebook wrote: some feats are more useful to certain types of characters than others, and many of them have special prerequisites that must be met before they are selected, as a general rule feats represent abilities outside of the normal scope of your character's race and class. Many of them alter or enhance class abilities or soften class restrictions, while others might apply bonuses to your statistics or grant you the ability to take actions otherwise prohibited to you. By selecting feats, you can customize and adapt your character to be uniquely yours.
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
This citation is the text I have been able to find that suggests how sometimes you can take a Feat and sometimes you can't. Many Feats have Prerequisites, and you have to meet any and all prerequisites before you can take the Feat. Feral Combat Training doesn't list among its prerequisites that you cannot have taken this Feat previously.
Tels wrote: The logic is, that, if feats could already be taken multiple times, then the special clauses on the other feats are, essentially, meaningless and a waste of space (unless they have some sort of restriction). However, if feats can't be taken multiple times, then that means the special clauses are actually very special and meaningful.
One presumption indicates a heightened level of incompetence on the designers. Another presumption indicates the designers know what they're doing.
For reference, see feats like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Spell Focus, Extra Rage Power, Extra Smite, Improved Natural Armor etc. Each of these feats says something like, "This feat can be taken multiple times. It's effects don't stack, instead choose another X" or "This feat can be taken multiple times. It's effect stacks."
I think it is an unfair presumption to state that the reason why they specify that you can take Weapon Specialization multiple times is because in general, taking Feats multiple times is not allowed. It is just as fair to presume that the reason why they have stated this is to explain what happens when you do take the feat multiple times, not grant special permission to do.
It just so happens that in earlier editions of d20, you COULD take Weapon Specialization twice, and their effects DID stack. It also used to be the case that Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization were subsumed in a single Feat. In both first and Second edition dungeons and dragons, Weapon Specialization granted both a +1 to attack and +2 to damage. It was also the case until the publication of the Gladiator Class in the Darksun Campaign Setting of 2nd Edition Dungeons and Dragons that you could NOT take Weapon Specialization for multiple Weapons: that 1 weapon was the weapon you SPECIALIZED in! It is entirely possible, even likely, that the special language about taking the Feat multiple times is a residual from the text of first and Second edition rules.
Meanwhile, remember that Pathfinder is a permission-based game. Feral Combat Training does not have any abilities that it does not say it has, and it does not say it has the power to prevent you from taking any other Feats, including Feral Combat Training. And what the Core Rulebook says about restricting Feats is that there are prerequisites to be met. Presumably, if you meet the prerequisites, you can take the Feat. You have to assume the general rules apply unless a Feat or something offers a specific exception to it. Otherwise,
Tels wrote: One presumption indicates a heightened level of incompetence on the designers. And that is just not fair to say.
We've already gone further afield from the OP than I hoped to. I only (recently) brought up FCT because someone was talking about incorporating Natural Attacks in with Flurry of Blows, and it seems like a very rare case indeed where a character would want to apply Feral Combat Training to more than 1 natural attack, especially if the character intends to use Flurry of Blows.
Let's remember that this is an Advice Thread, and we have both, Tels and I, and probably also Big Norse Wolf, ADVISED against taking Feral Combat Training for more than 1 natural attack, we only disagree as to why: truly a moot point in every sense of the word. But the "why" is clearly a rules question, not an Advice question.
Breq of Toren wrote:
Third, and most crucially, tiny creatures can enter an enemy square freely, although this provokes attacks of opportunity. This will allow you to take advantage of the special mouser abilities as well as the feat Monkey Shine. Monkey shine is one of the key feats in this build, as it grants a +4 dodge bonus to AC when you are in an enemy square and a +4 bonus to hit while in the enemy square.
The mouser benefits obtained from being in the same square happen after spending a panache point from being attacked. Its says nothing about just moving into the square triggering this.
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And, without this triggering effect, PC's can't end a movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
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It also doesn't say that you only get the bonus after spending a point of panache. Just because it's under the same header doesn't magically make that necessary.
Its an entirely seperate paragraph
Quote: And, without this triggering effect, PC's can't end a movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
They're not only allowed they're almost required to move into the square
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
Scott Wilhelm: "If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description." is not a general trend, it is a rule. You can't take a feat multiple times unless the feat says so. Period. No exceptions.
This has been the case throughout Pathfinder and 3.x. You asked for a rules citation, you received it. If you want to argue whether or not that should be the case then argue with the designers. But that, most definitely is the case.
BigNorseWolf: Also has the right of the Mouser's Underfoot Assault ability. It works the same with Monkey Shine for the exact reason he stated.
One minor correction: Underfoot Assault allows them to flank.
I think he knew this and was just quoting the general rule, though.
I'd have a bigger issue with Monkey Shine, which isn't a separate paragraph - the logic used above. IMO, it's cause and effect. You guys appear to be jumping straight to effect and saying -- if I can create the effect, the cause doesn't matter, b/c I have ...'this' feat. I question that.
Havoq wrote: I'd have a bigger issue with Monkey Shine, which isn't a separate paragraph - the logic used above. IMO, it's cause and effect. You guys appear to be jumping straight to effect and saying -- if I can create the effect, the cause doesn't matter, b/c I have ...'this' feat. I question that.
RAW: They both say that its while you're in the square. There's no mention of how you get in there being connected to the bonuses.
Sense: I think the case for the stunning fist/penache expenditure being the cause is more than a little weak (especially for the mouser) On round 4, why would it matter if the mouser/Monkey shiner entered the square through the stunning fist or penache expenditure on round 1 or if they just walked into the square?
Power: A mouser gives up parry riposte: a swashbucklers strongest ability, for some nice, tactical and thematic but not overwhelming bonuses.
Monkey shine is an ELEVENTH LEVEL feat with SEVEN prerequisites. It should be roflstomp good. (yes, the style master can snag it early... thats a huge problem with the style master)
I can't find a method of rules interpretation for the more restrictive reading.
BigNorseWolf wrote: RAW: They both say that its while you're in the square. There's no mention of how you get in there being connected to the bonuses. It's covered in the text of the ability.
Havoq wrote: BigNorseWolf wrote: RAW: They both say that its while you're in the square. There's no mention of how you get in there being connected to the bonuses. It's covered in the text of the ability.
Thats... not really an answer.
under monkey shine and mouser the opponent provokes when leaving a square you occupy. will this cause two AoO assuming you have combat reflexes?
Alright - I phrased the question in the rules section.
Feel free to FAQ ...or not.
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dedpropht wrote: under monkey shine and mouser the opponent provokes when leaving a square you occupy. will this cause two AoO assuming you have combat reflexes? No. They negate 5 foot steps, withdraws, and other abilities that would avoid provoking (apparently including acrobatics- monkey shine has stronger wording on that than the mouser). They don't make moving out of the square a seperate provoking action from other kinds of movement that limit AoOs to one attack per moving no matter how many squares you leave.
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BigNorseWolf is correct here as well. Receiving the bonuses is not connected to how you enter your opponent's square for either feat. If you Stunning Fist into an opponent's square you get the Underfoot Assault bonuses. If you Penache into an opponent's square you get the Monkey Shine bonuses.
This has been discussed a number of times in a number of different threads. The overwhelming majority agrees here. I do not feel the need to discuss the significance of a paragraph or period any longer.
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Lune wrote: You can't take a feat multiple times unless the feat says so. Period. No exceptions. I was not aware of that, would you please cite that rule?
Lune wrote: You asked for a rules citation, you received it. You have cited nothing.
Lune wrote: This has been the case throughout Pathfinder and 3.x.... that, most definitely is the case. Then it should be absolutely no problem at all for you to find a single quotation from the rules that says so.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Make a case, not a sideways implication that they don't know the rules.... implying that people haven't read the rules... and don't know them as well as you do really starts to grate after a while, especially given the lack of substance to back this up....
Referencing specific pages from the core rulebook and saying "this agrees with me" is a good argument.
Hand waving at the entire core rulebook and saying "this says i'm right!" is not an argument.
You're right about one thing,
Lune wrote: BigNorseWolf is correct here as well.
Benefits do not stack, as in, you cannot take Dodge twice to double the dodge bonus. That is what the feats that explicitly permit stacking enable. On the other hand, that says nothing about not being able to take FCT twice on different weapons. You're not stacking anything there, it is a parallel effect - you get the effect once at a time, but have more applicable situations. All that statement prohibits is stacking, and hence does not apply here.
Generally, rules in pathfinder say what you CAN do. Not what you CAN'T do.
So the weight of providing a rules text that allows you to pick the same feat more than once is upon you, not upon the people who say you can't.
Coincidentally, this rules text exists, in specific feats, in the "special" paragraph.
Ergo: if a feat doesn't have that special clause you can't pick it up twice
I'm curious why the quoted text was included if you cannot select a feat more than once unless it specifically tells you so?
Quote: If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. If you can't select a feat multiple times, why include this text indicating it is a possible scenario?
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Caedwyr wrote: I'm curious why the quoted text was included if you cannot select a feat more than once unless it specifically tells you so?
Quote: If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. If you can't select a feat multiple times, why include this text indicating it is a possible scenario?
You can select a feat and then wind up with it as a bonus feat.
BigNorseWolf wrote: Caedwyr wrote: I'm curious why the quoted text was included if you cannot select a feat more than once unless it specifically tells you so?
Quote: If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. If you can't select a feat multiple times, why include this text indicating it is a possible scenario?
You can select a feat and then wind up with it as a bonus feat. Makes sense in a twisted sort of way.
Incidentally, if Paizo ever decides to do a cleanup of their rules language, this would be a great spot to look. One should not have to look at unrelated feats for the "normal" text to see how a mechanic operates. Also, if feats can normally only be selected once, it should probably say that in both the character building section and at the beginning of the feats section. Thirdly, if a feat was selected and a bonus feat replaces it at a higher level, the player should be able to select a new feat to replace their old one (meeting all the per-requisites at the time the original one was selected). This would all make the game much more new player friendly and not substantially increase the power of the game for people who spend more time building their characters.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: shroudb wrote: Generally, rules in pathfinder say what you CAN do. Not what you CAN'T do.
So the weight of providing a rules text that allows you to pick the same feat more than once is upon you, not upon the people who say you can't.
Coincidentally, this rules text exists, in specific feats, in the "special" paragraph.
Ergo: if a feat doesn't have that special clause you can't pick it up twice
Ergo, the rules in Pathfinder say you have to meet the prerequisites for taking the Feat. An exagerrated example To make it even more simple since you seem to have trouble grasping the concept of "the rules say what you can do and not what you can't do":
DM: you encounter a group of goblins
Player1: I use intimidate and make them die of a heart attack
DM: wut? Show me where it says you can do that
Plkayer1: nah, you show me where it says I can't
DM: but intimidate says you make them shaken, not dead
Pkayer1: it doesn't say I can't use it to kill them
That is exactly your position (the lkayer1 position).
You claim you can take a feat more than once.
Point us where in the rules it says you can.
The way rules are written, they can't account for the myriad things one can't do, so they make clear provisions of the things they CAN do.
If you cannot find a rule that clearly says " you can pick a feat twice" then you can't. It's as simple as that.
shroudb wrote: You claim you can take a feat more than once. Point us where in the rules it says you can. The way rules are written, they can't account for the myriad things one can't do, so they make clear provisions of the things they CAN do. If you cannot find a rule that clearly says " you can pick a feat twice" then you can't. It's as simple as that. I guess that's fair. I will show you that not only can I normally select a single feat as many times as I want, but I can actually normally select any feat at all that I want.
Core Rulebook, Getting Started, Common Terms wrote: Feat: A feat is an ability a creature has mastered. Feats often allow creatures to circumvent rules or restrictions. Creatures receive a number of feats based off their Hit Dice, but some classes and other abilities grant bonus feats. The rules say here that I get to take Feats based on Hit Dice, Class choice, and other abilities.
Core Rulebook, Getting Started, Generating a Character wrote: Step 4—Pick Skills and Select Feats… determine how many feats your character receives, based on his class and level, and select them from those presented in Feats. Here, the rules say that when I roll up my character, I get to select my own Feats for myself.
Core Rulebook, Classes, Character Advancement, Advancing Your Character wrote: Adding a level generally gives you … possibly an … additional feat… Finally, add new skills and feats. I can get new Feats by gaining levels.
Core Rulebook, Feats wrote: By selecting feats, you can customize and adapt your character to be uniquely yours. The whole idea of Feats is that I get to pick any Feats I want to customize my character.
Core Rulbook, Combat Feats wrote: Any feat designated as a combat feat can be selected as a fighter's bonus feat. This designation does not restrict characters of other classes from selecting these feats, assuming that they meet the prerequisites. Combat Feats, in particular can be selected by Fighters as bonus Feats, or by any character upon reaching the appropriate character levels, and Feral Combat Training is a Combat Feat.
I have now demonstrated that in general, I can take any Feats I want when I create my character, and when I gain character levels and certain class levels, I can select more. There are further rules that impose further restrictions on which Feats can be selected.
Core Rulebook, Feats, Prerequisites wrote: Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite. Okay, so you have to meet certain conditions in order to qualify for the Feat. So if a Feat includes in its Prerequisites that you can't already have the Feat, then you can't take it again. But that isn't one of Feral Combat Training's prerequisites.
Feral Combat Training, Prerequisites wrote: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon. So let's look at another citation that has been thrown around.
Core Rulebook, Feat Descriptions wrote: Benefit... If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. Well, right here in the Core Rulebook it describes what happens if you DO select a feat more than once, and that implies that you can. As I said to Big Norse Wolf, that doesn't mean you can't select a Feat more than once, only that you would hardly ever want to.
And consider the example Big Norse Wolf offered.
BigNorseWolf wrote: You can select a feat and then wind up with it as a bonus feat. If you couldn't select a Feat more than once then if you took a level in Fighter with the Unarmed Archetype, then you would not be allowed to take a level in Monk, since both have Improved Unarmed Strike as Bonus Feats. Remember that every time you gain a level, you can always select which class you gain your level in, so by selecting that level in Monk you are indeed selecting the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat along with everything that goes with the level in that class, including sever Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feats which the 2 classes share.
shroudb wrote: You claim you can take a feat more than once. Point us where in the rules it says you can. Here you go.
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