The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)


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Doesnt going Dragon disciple kind of wasteful when you are dex based?


Woodoodoo wrote:
Can an unarmed fighter still get monkey shine with his lvl 1 bonus feat?

They never could.

At 1st level, a unarmed fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and any single style feat as a bonus feat. The unarmed fighter need not meet all the prerequisites of the style feat he chooses, but style feats that grant additional uses of the Elemental Fist feat cannot be taken until the unarmed fighter has that feat.

This ability replaces the bonus feat at 1st level.

Only the first Feat in the style chain is a style feat. The others are (usually) combat feats. The unarmed fighter doesn't have the cool "or associated feats" that the master of many styles did.

This is a good thing. A feat you need to be 11th level to take available at first level was just nuts.

Dark Archive

Woodoodoo wrote:
Doesnt going Dragon disciple kind of wasteful when you are dex based?

A bit, but I didn't see many other options; you do at least get a breath weapon, a decent bit of natural armor, and eventually add your energy type to your claws and bite. I guess Evangelist would work well, getting 3/4 BAB and -1 casting advancement. EK is better but harder to qualify. Not sure off hand if any othr PrCs would work.


Tiger Lily wrote:
Reduce Person to be a mouse sized Diminutive foxie

As much as I love the idea of mighty mouse...

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Dark Archive

Fox Shape is Su rather than Sp, doesn't that mean it is not actually a spell to conflict with Reduce Person? That said, where is the general rule about Polymorph effects stacking? Not doubting you, just curious :) It would actually be a nice side benefit since it would make you immune to things like Baleful Polymorph.


So is taking caster levels after the few barb/swash ones the answer now?
The Medium sounds kind of fun.
Maybe some of the Divine classes like Warpriest champion of the faith sounds kind of cool, you get smite to bypass DR once or twice a day


Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
Fox Shape is Su rather than Sp, doesn't that mean it is not actually a spell to conflict with Reduce Person? That said, where is the general rule about Polymorph effects stacking? Not doubting you, just curious :) It would actually be a nice side benefit since it would make you immune to things like Baleful Polymorph.

It is still a Polymorph effect, regardless of Ex, SP, Su, whatever. Magic Schools, Transmutation, Polymorph.


Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
Fox Shape is Su rather than Sp, doesn't that mean it is not actually a spell to conflict with Reduce Person? That said, where is the general rule about Polymorph effects stacking? Not doubting you, just curious :)

Magic chapter under transmutation polymorph . You need to live in thact section if you play druids..

Quote:
It would actually be a nice side benefit since it would make you immune to things like Baleful Polymorph.

Well, kitsune are neigh immune to it anyway (standard action to change back because they have the shapechanger subtype) but for those that are just beast shaped...

Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form.

Dark Archive

Cool, thanks for the information. It's really a fairly trivial part of the whole setup anyway, Mirror Image and Blur or Displacement make a much bigger difference.

That said, I've only played this until Level 4 (Barb/Barb/Swash/Sorc). Actual long term effectiveness is still theoretical at this point :) It's great now being able to fairly reliably land 4 nasty blows a round (1d2
+10 to 1d4+10 damage depending on which attack at a +13 to hit), but I don't know if it will scale - it may be in the end just finishing out Barbarian or Swashbuckler would work better, but this sounded fun and I'm really more interested in something reasonably effective and fun than something that can solo adventures.

Dark Archive

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Figured if anyone's interested in trying it, here are a few fun lower level spells with no somatic components you can cast in Fox Shape:

* Feather Fall
* Liberating Command
* True Strike
* Blur
* Darkness (if everyone has Darkvision, naturally or from a spell)
* Displacement
* Storm Step (just found out about this one - it's kinda like a lightning bolt, except you're the bolt so you travel with it. Move into their square without AOOs from anyone, and zap them at the same time!)
* Dimension Door
* Emergency Force Sphere

Other than that, probably want to stick to extended buff spells since you'll have to shift out to cast them.


What do you guys think of going champion of the faith warpriest after the first 3-4 base levels? It will cost a couple of weapon focus feats, but is it worth it? Bypassing DR sounds pretty sweet.


Maybe slayer levels?


So it's a tie between going 2 more levels of fighter for weapon training(weapon master) and then chevalier to get smite for a huge nova round. Or just go slayer for the rest of my levels.
Also warpriest is an option

currently I am at
2 barb
1 fighter
1 swash


The MOMS Monk erratum does diminish the build, but it doesn't end it. Snake Sidewind is not so bad. You can get Snake Fang the hard way by level 9, and it is so badass a feat that it's worth taking at level 9.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Now trying to build this, with Fox Shape, at 7th level, but only 15 point buy, and only 2000gp starting gold.

Thoughts?


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blackbloodtroll wrote:

Now trying to build this, with Fox Shape, at 7th level, but only 15 point buy, and only 2000gp starting gold.

Thoughts?

"What have I done?" :P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I have been interested in this for a while.

Check earlier in the thread.


Well. All you really need is dex. Maybe a little con but that's it. The key here is coming to terms with dumping strength. :)

Sovereign Court

And pray you never get ambushed by shadows or pick up uncanny dodge just in case.


Well you are getting uncanny dodge from the 2 barbarian levels you take.
I decided to just take mutation warrior fighter for the first levels after the base ones. And eventually take the snake style chain and/or the step up chain with combat reflexes and bodyguard. The change on MoMS made me want to drop the monkey style thing since I would only get it by lvl 12.


I love the idea of this build but ... I'm wondering how in the world you managed to get this train-wreck of a build actually leveled up to level 12 without being horribly killed long beforehand? Until he manages to get the required feats, extra double-, triple-, and even quintuple-dipped multiclasses, not to mention the required magic items, he is still a very weak halfling swashbuckler with a 6 Str (can you say maximum 1 or 2 damage till he gets to 4th or 5th level?).

Did you create this character at high level, or did he actually make the climb from 1st to his current level? If so, what role did he play for the first half of his career till he became useful in combat? Not trying to troll you, I really do love this idea! But I'm curious how it actually works while trying to level up.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

At early levels you go urban barbarian and rage for str for damage rather than dex. This boosts your damage up a bit though I usually don't recommend dumping str too much.

So you can't do the build with only 2000 gp since the item in question costs 4000 instead you would have to go with a Fox Kitsune build and grab fox shape.

If you meant 20000 gp then we can work on it since the two main pieces cost 4000 a piece, Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists and Ring of Seven Lovely Colors.

With a kitsune build and only 2000 gp it might be fun to do something like:

Urban Barbarian 1, Swashbuckler Mouser 1, Unchained Monk 1, Unchained Rogue 4.

Rather than going claws go unarmed strike. Use Unchained rogue dex to damage for unarmed strike. You will only get 3 attacks a round but you won't need any magic items to make this work.

Feats Weapon Finesse (B), Piranha Strike, Extra Rage, Dodge (B), Fox Shape I think are required but the next feat might be a Style of your choice, Combat Reflexes, Lunge, Extra Rage again.

Trait Berserker of the Society might be useful. Quain Martial Artist can add another point of damage.

Use your 2k for a cloak of resistance, wand of mage armor and 4 potions of magic fang when you have to have magic.

Statwise I would go S 8 D 18 C 12 I 10 W 14 Cha 13 (after racial, +1 Dex level up)

Since you can enter the opponents square and flank, damage should be Flurry +16/+16/+11 for 1d3 + 12 + 2d6 sneak attack while raging in fox shape. AC should be 24/28 w/Mage Armor plus you can debilitating strike for an attack penalty.


If you were to drop the "little songbird" shtick, you could still make a very effective character, and avoid most of the strange looks and jeers. Potion/wand of reduce person would let you get tiny if you really needed to bring the pain.

The things some people come up with... :)


I played a build like this without the ring to level 8 in PFS. What I found was Interpid Rescuer is better than the snake style chain (works on yourself if you go prone, which you can do fine with monkey style).

I'm gonna chime in with everybody else in this thread to say that you only get the +4 to AC against the opponent whose space you share. If it were the other case, carrying an angry dust mite in a bottle would always confer a +4 dodge bonus (at which point who needs the tiny character). Monkey Shine is still good if you aren't planning to get reach ever or if you were using Monkey Shine's ability to provoke AoO with forced movement (Punishing Kick works really well with it).

Get a familiar! A familiar with an ioun stone can give you shield/mage armor. Get something diminutive like a thrush (bird is the word) and it can stay prone on your shoulder, earning protection from Interpid Rescuer. To expand on this, Familiars let you take either valet and share team work feats with them (permanent +4 to AoO with Paired Opportunists if you need it) or Protector (extra AC and shield other).

I would drop Monkey Shine/Snake Style Chain (again interpid rescuer is strictly better as long as you have monkey style).

Drop slayer completely. Like its been pointed out, claws don't do piercing damage. Bite attacks do, and I believe the raven gets a bite attack already?

Use less Paladin levels (unless you're going to hit 18 Charisma, the later levels are wasted).

Pick up urban barbarian. +4 dex, extra AC and uncanny dodge? Yes please.

Consider brawling armor? You don't seem like you're getting that much AC from wisdom.

Pick up a cavalier level (free teamwork feat).

Switch your fighter archetype to Brawler (+3 dmg & +1 to hit at level 3. You still get the same free feat).

Neat find with the ring. Now I gotta figure out how flying and prone interact.


Has anyone pitted this thing against a party, halfway its build (lvl 5-6), just for the sake of a challenge?


DiscOH:
Where to start?...

Intrepid Rescuer doesn't work. 1. You don't threaten. 2. Even if you did it only works when the opponent attacks a "helpless, prone, or stunned ally or any attack against a noncombatant". In other words... not often.

Being Prone is not good even with Monkey Style. You still can't move well while prone aside from crawling which is a poor form of transportation. You cannot fly while prone. You still have to stand up which takes an action unless you make your Acrobatics check.

Paired Opportunist from a Familiar... via what? How are you getting this Familiar? And when you have Paired Opportunist and you are getting +4 to your AoOs between your Tiny form and your Familiar's Diminutive form where do you plan on making those attacks into? Neither of you threaten.

That is, unless you are considering taking levels in Mouser Swashbuckler as I would recommend as it gives you ways to threaten.

Monkey Shine lost it's shine when MOMS no longer granted it as a bonus feat making everyone have to get it the hard way. Before that... it was awesome.

Snake Style was used to make your attacks piercing so that you could get Dex to damage without having to take 3 levels of Unchained Rogue.

Brawling Armor? Do you mean Brawling Barding? ... that is Tiny Sized? ... that you would have to put on after you are Tiny? Armor doesn't work on things that turn into other things unless the thing that is changing is a Druid using Wild Shape and then only if his armor is Wild (+3 bonus, armor has to already be +1, adding Brawling would make it a total of +5 so 25k plus whatever material the armor is made out of and/or masterwork cost).

I have to think I was missing something in the meaning of your post for what you are saying to make sense. Were you not talking about a Tiny sized hero (the topic of this thread)?

Silver Crusade

Has anyone experimented with death from above and pummeling charge?

I am finally rebuilding my song bird after the MOMS update, and found these wonderfully suited (assuming you have 5' above the monster you want to charge at).

Silver Crusade

Oli Ironbar wrote:

Has anyone experimented with death from above and pummeling charge?

I am finally rebuilding my song bird after the MOMS update, and found these wonderfully suited (assuming you have 5' above the monster you want to charge at).

Oh. Just re-read the errata. Well that puts a damper on pummeling charge.

Silver Crusade

ok. Please critique! I should be able to get the death from above charge bonus (+5) into a full attack at lvl 8 (4 UAS attacks).

To keep the charge lane clear, fly above the crowd, and occupy the nearest space still 10' in the air after each charge.

This can be made easier with sword master's flair (blue scarf), which should be usable in bird form by holding it in the beak (off hand), and activating it with panache (from Kata Master archetype), and of course using snake style to make UAS piercing.

1 brawler - wpn finesse, martial flexibility
2 brawler - death from above, TWF
3 MoMS - snake style, combat reflexes
4 brawler -
5 brawler- [WF (UAS)] - retrain next lvl
6 MoMS - [snake sidewind], pummeling style, evasion
7 MoMS - ITWF
8 brawler - pummeling charge
9 MoMS - snake fang

I'm thinking of making tiny masterwork aviator googles to help with sense motive checks (+2 circumstance), which can be used to confirm crits.

This would complete the look of Woodstock pretending to the the Red Baron with Snoopy:

Woodstock with Snoopy


Quick question about the songbird of death build.
sorry if it was already talked about earlier in the thread and I missed it.
OP says the build will have 3 natural and 3 weapon attacks at some point. How? Raven has one natural bite, and you lose your regular weapon attacks when you wild shape. Please enlighten me.

Silver Crusade

Abilities that grant natural weapon attacks are still ok by polymorph rules. So a sorcerer with a bloodline ability can grow claws even when transformed.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The build is no longer valid due to MoMS errata.


The original build was never valid. But you can still make very nice versions of this build through through the one level of mouser + either barbarian or bloodrager levels.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Woodoodoo wrote:
The original build was never valid. But you can still make very nice versions of this build through through the one level of mouser + either barbarian or bloodrager levels.

How was the original build not valid??? Seemed pretty solid to me.


Woodoodoo wrote:
The original build was never valid. But you can still make very nice versions of this build through through the one level of mouser + either barbarian or bloodrager levels.

Thats not an or question. An urban barbarian dip for an urban bloodrager is pretty sweet and vice versa


Ravingdork wrote:
Woodoodoo wrote:
The original build was never valid. But you can still make very nice versions of this build through through the one level of mouser + either barbarian or bloodrager levels.
How was the original build not valid??? Seemed pretty solid to me.

You can't use aspect of the beast(claws) while polymorphed you must be getting it from a source that "spontaneously" give the natural attacks like barbarian rage powers and bloodrager and sorcerer bloodline powers.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Woodoodoo wrote:
The original build was never valid. But you can still make very nice versions of this build through through the one level of mouser + either barbarian or bloodrager levels.
Thats not an or question. An urban barbarian dip for an urban bloodrager is pretty sweet and vice versa

Waiiit a minute, you can stack the two different rages?


This is some high quality cheese! I would love to see the look on my GM's mug!


Woodoodoo wrote:


Waiiit a minute, you can stack the two different rages?

Not at the same time but since they are technically rage and bloodrage you have both independant class features, urban bloodrager gives you back your 10 foot movement increase, and you have two pools of rage rounds, which is really good if you just dipped one of the barbarians.


James Risner wrote:
The build is no longer valid due to MoMS errata.

Did that make you feel better?


Seems like quite the build. It did get me thinking about how vulnerable to dispel magic it might be. Without the beast shape IV in effect, is the build still "ok"?

Sidetrack regarding dispel DCs for this unique ring:
When I took a look at the ring, I noticed that it has an interesting facet where it has a caster level of 7th, but casts beast shape IV, a 6th level spell, which would normally require a minimum caster level of 11. This leads to a question/discrepancy about the DC to dispel the effect (not talking about targeting the item itself here, rather the spell on its wearer).

If you use the item's caster level (7) to determine the DC of the caster level check, the DC is 18 (11 + 7). I think I lean toward doing it this way, since the CL for spells cast from rings, wondrous items and such is typically handled that way.

If you use the minimum caster level that can cast a 6th level spell (11), then the DC is 22 (11 + 11). This also seems reasonable, and I would accept such a ruling at a table without much fuss. Going with CL 7th, though, might make the item better-balanced for its price, and seems closer to RAW (even though technically a 7th level caster can't cast a 6th level spell).

With dispel magic, there's also the option of targeting beast shape IV specifically, assuming the would-be dispeller had ID'd the spell. In that case, you target the DC of the spell with the caster level check, which results in a DC of 19 (10 + 6th level spell, +3 for the modifier from the minimum 16 INT required to cast a 6th level spell).

So, a dispeller would be rolling a caster level check against 18, 22, or 19, depending on the factors I listed above. At higher levels, this is not too difficult for an enemy spellcaster (say, level 10–14 or so, possibly with Dispel Focus or Greater Dispel Focus). Granted, the wearer could use another standard action to transform again, unless the dispel also included a rider effect (like Destructive Dispel).

Any thoughts?


Deyvantius wrote:
James Risner wrote:
The build is no longer valid due to MoMS errata.
Did that make you feel better?

Yes

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Deyvantius wrote:
James Risner wrote:
The build is no longer valid due to MoMS errata.
Did that make you feel better?

It's more a "if anyone comes along, they won't be confused".

Considering I'm playing a similar build, I don't know which answer will make you happier? If I say yes? Or if I say no?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Woodoodoo wrote:


Waiiit a minute, you can stack the two different rages?

Not at the same time but since they are technically rage and bloodrage you have both independant class features, urban bloodrager gives you back your 10 foot movement increase, and you have two pools of rage rounds, which is really good if you just dipped one of the barbarians.

NO!

You can't multiclass an hybrid class with one of it's original classes!

Bloodrager is Sorcerer + Barbarian, so you can't take level in those 2 classes

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That restriction was dropped.

Parent Classes wrote:
Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I was wondering what to do with my skinwalker boon from GenCon - is this a viable thing in PFS? I have a GM blob I can put it on and push to lvl 4-5 before I actually play it. It seems kinda random/fun/cheesy as heck


Honestly I would probably use the skinwalker boon fir something else that uses the actual racial abilities. This build is legal in pfs(the mouser bloodrager/barbarian build) monkey style comes in a little later at 11 but it is still fun to play until then. Just a warning, some GM's will be pretty pissed to see you using the ring to transform yourself. Coming from personal experience.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Skinwalker gives basically unrestricted access to bat form (diminutive) with a feat, which is why I was considering it - I don't normally play non-casters.

The Exchange

CigarPete wrote:
Skinwalker gives basically unrestricted access to bat form (diminutive) with a feat, which is why I was considering it - I don't normally play non-casters.

tiny, cause have to use flying fox bat. i too have one and building a character to use this feat. looking at range attacks maybe. or unchained rogue with dip in mouser


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There's been a lot of back and forth with these builds, especially with errata changing things up half way through the thread.

I've long since gotten terribly lost. What's the current build even look like anymore?

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