The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)


Advice

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I don't think it's even really necessary to change. There hasn't been anything crucial (to my knowledge) that's actually been errata'd. So, the OP's build is still valid.

Liberty's Edge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I don't think it's even really necessary to change. There hasn't been anything crucial (to my knowledge) that's actually been errata'd. So, the OP's build is still valid.

Provided your GM rules that a tiny songbird can perform humanoid martial arts attacks.

Which is, IMO, patently ridiculous.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I don't think it's even really necessary to change. There hasn't been anything crucial (to my knowledge) that's actually been errata'd. So, the OP's build is still valid.

Provided your GM rules that a tiny songbird can perform unarmed strikes.

Which is, IMO, patently ridiculous.

FTFY.

All creatures are capable of unarmed strikes, a lot of them simply just don't use them, because unarmed strikes by themselves are pretty stupid.

Grand Lodge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
All creatures are capable of unarmed strikes

Can you cite text on that?


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CBDunkerson wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I don't think it's even really necessary to change. There hasn't been anything crucial (to my knowledge) that's actually been errata'd. So, the OP's build is still valid.

Provided your GM rules that a tiny songbird can perform humanoid martial arts attacks.

Which is, IMO, patently ridiculous.

It doesn't have to be kung fu fighting. It could be a headbut, a wing strike, hipcheck.

I've been clocked in the head by a swan's and it hurt more than most people punching.

headbutted by a horse.

Headbuted in a delicate area by a pitbull...

I really need to up my wild empathy score...


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I don't think it's even really necessary to change. There hasn't been anything crucial (to my knowledge) that's actually been errata'd. So, the OP's build is still valid.

The early access on master of many styles has by kyboshed, that changes the build quite a bit.

Liberty's Edge

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
All creatures are capable of unarmed strikes
Can you cite text on that?

Just think of the possibilities!

Dandelion Monks!

Earthworm Ninjas!

Snake Brawlers!

Tree acrobats!

Or... maybe there really are things that are dependent on form and thus lost when using polymorph effects to take on forms incapable of doing them;

"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."

A human polymorphed into a songbird loses the ability to punch and the songbird form does not restore that ability. Nor can songbirds perform human style kicks or headbutts. They simply aren't anatomically capable of such movements.


CBDunkerson wrote:


A human polymorphed into a songbird loses the ability to punch and the songbird form does not restore that ability. Nor can songbirds perform human style kicks or headbutts. They simply aren't anatomically capable of such movements.

Thats a cart before the horse argument.

If a songbird cannot make an unarmed attack then they do indeed lose it when polymorphed.

But if a songbird can make an unarmed attack, then unarmed attack isn't lost when polymorphed.

So your argument comes down to "a songbird cannot make an unarmed attack because it cannot make an unarmed attack" which is a declaration , not a rules argument. It's not a declaration without merit, but it's still a declaration.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:


A human polymorphed into a songbird loses the ability to punch and the songbird form does not restore that ability. Nor can songbirds perform human style kicks or headbutts. They simply aren't anatomically capable of such movements.

Thats a cart before the horse argument.

If a songbird cannot make an unarmed attack then they do indeed lose it when polymorphed.

But if a songbird can make an unarmed attack, then unarmed attack isn't lost when polymorphed.

So your argument comes down to "a songbird cannot make an unarmed attack because it cannot make an unarmed attack" which is a declaration , not a rules argument. It's not a declaration without merit, but it's still a declaration.

No, I provided a non-tautological reason... 'a songbird cannot make an unarmed attack as defined in the rules (i.e. humanoid unarmed strikes) because they are anatomically incapable of such movements'.

Yes, birds can make wing buffets or attack with claws or beaks and all of those could certainly be described as 'unarmed attacks'... but in the rules they are actually defined as 'natural attacks'... and "unarmed attacks" are specifically limited to certain humanoid movements. The various classes of the suggested build are trained in those humanoid movements and get all kinds of special benefits (e.g. flurry of blows, snake style, et cetera) to THOSE attacks.... but if they polymorph in to a songbird then they cannot make any of those attacks, lose all the special benefits, and can only attack within the physical abilities of a songbird.


CBDunkerson wrote:


No, I provided a non-tautological reason... 'a songbird cannot make an unarmed attack as defined in the rules (i.e. humanoid unarmed strikes)

That humanoids make unarmed strikes does not mean that other creatures cannot.

Quote:
because they are anatomically incapable of such movements'.

This is your premise, which you are trying to prove. You cannot use it to get there.

Quote:
Yes, birds can make wing buffets or attack with claws or beaks and all of those could certainly be described as 'unarmed attacks'... but in the rules they are actually defined as 'natural attacks'...

They are not. Many creatures have the physical ability to wing buffet, but unless it's in their stat block they don't have a wing buffet attack. I think the most reasonable ruling would be to treat that as an unarmed strike.

Just because you have wings does not give you a wing attack

Quote:
and "unarmed attacks" are specifically limited to certain humanoid movements.

Citation?

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

I don't see anything that says humanoid there.

Quote:
. but if they polymorph in to a songbird then they cannot make any of those attacks, lose all the special benefits, and can only attack within the physical abilities of a songbird.

And you're saying that an unarmed strike is not a physical ability of a songbird.. to show that they're not a physical ability of a songbird.


An elf monk polymorphs into a dwarf

Would he lose his ability to unarmed strike? Obviously not. Both forms can unarmed strike.

Sure you could ad hoc a -2 penalty or something because he's not used to the shorter reach and low center of gravity, but the polymorph rules really don't go into that much. Its just BAMPH you're a squirrel and the spell teaches you how to squirrel.

So if you say that a bird can unarmed strike, the polymorpher doesn't lose that ability.

If you say a bird cannot (which is very reasonable for a songbird), then they do.

Thats the real crux of the matter, and it doesn't have a rules answer. It's weirder than the designers made rules for (like most fun parts of the game...)


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I don't think it's even really necessary to change. There hasn't been anything crucial (to my knowledge) that's actually been errata'd. So, the OP's build is still valid.
The early access on master of many styles has by kyboshed, that changes the build quite a bit.

To be fair, MoMS created a problem much worse than that which caused an unncessary kneejerk reaction.

To that end, all it tells me is that the build is no longer really a PFS build. The build can certainly work yet, but it requires more feat investments, and it delays the point at which stuff comes online, almost to the stage where PFS ends. So really, it boils down to whether you are or are not playing PFS.

So if you're not playing PFS, then the build can certainly work towards the late/endgame. If you are playing PFS, then all I can tell you is blame Crane Wing shenanigans for causing such a kneejerk reaction that they didn't decide to pick a much more acceptable option (MoMS archetype banned from PFS, for example, as is the case with several other archetypes of other classes, like Vivisectionist Alchemist).


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
All creatures are capable of unarmed strikes
Can you cite text on that?

Certainly.

Natural Attacks wrote:
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.

Granted, most creatures aren't intelligent enough to utilize unarmed strikes, similar to the whole 'Grab->Constrict->Release->Repeat' shenanigans, and a lot of them don't (because making all Natural Attacks become Secondary really bites), but if we take, say, a Druid with a level dip in Monk, who wildshapes into a Dire Tiger, he can certainly use his Claws, Bite, and Rake, in addition to Unarmed Strikes.

There are other feasible examples, as BNW suggested, such as bodychecking, shoulder-bashing (more of a Slam, but Slams are open-ended in their execution...), and so on. Of course, if the above Druid was trying to execute Unarmed Strikes with one of his "hands" or "feet," he would have to forgo the relevant Natural Attack limb to do so, and as stated, said Druid would treat all of his Natural Attacks as Secondary Natural Weapons. That means -5 to-hit (or -2 with Multiattack), and only half modifier bonus for Strength and Power Attack, the biggest damage dealing sources.

Of course, if I picked up Dragon Ferocity, and some Feral Combat Training (Claw), it might be worth the trade-off.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

So if you say that a bird can unarmed strike, the polymorpher doesn't lose that ability.

If you say a bird cannot (which is very reasonable for a songbird), then they do.

Thats the real crux of the matter, and it doesn't have a rules answer.

Yes, the rules specifically leave it up to the GM to determine what the new form can and cannot do. As I said in the first place.

That said, I think it is more than just 'can a songbird make an unarmed strike'. When a human monk learns to make a 'flurry of blows', 'piranha strike', or 'snake fang' attack, they have done so using movements of the human body. A songbird cannot make those movements, and there is nothing suggesting that all of that training is magically 'translated' to work with the new form. Even if we assume that a songbird can make an 'unarmed strike' of some kind... it would not be the kind of strike the character is trained in.

Quote:

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

I don't see anything that says humanoid there.

The particular set of attacks; punches, kicks, and head butts, is exclusively limited to humanoids. Punches require a humanoid form. Kicks and headbutts can be performed by creatures of other shapes... but in many cases they'd be markedly different movements (e.g. horses cannot perform a humanoid style forward or side kick).

Put another way... look at the various Bestiary books and other stat blocks. See a lot of 'unarmed attack' entries for birds and other creatures without humanoid limbs? Or... any such entries for that matter?


CBDunkerson wrote:


That said, I think it is more than just 'can a songbird make an unarmed strike'. When a human monk learns to make a 'flurry of blows', 'piranha strike', or 'snake fang' attack, they have done so using movements of the human body. A songbird cannot make those movements, and there is nothing suggesting that all of that training is magically 'translated' to work with the new form. Even if we assume that a songbird can make an 'unarmed strike' of some kind... it would not be the kind of strike the character is trained in.

A human rogue has trained to duck fireballs with a humanoid body but they explicitly retain that ability when they polymorph.

The polymorph spell by all appearances lets you seemlessly kick over your instincts from your primate brain to your whatever you've been turned into brain.

Quote:
The particular set of attacks; punches, kicks, and head butts, is exclusively limited to humanoids.

Circular/unfounded. Again.

Quote:
Put another way... look at the various Bestiary books and other stat blocks. See a lot of 'unarmed attack' entries for birds and other creatures without humanoid limbs? Or... any such entries for that matter?

A Ghouls statblock does not have an unarmed strike entry. Are you saying he can no longer kick now that he has claws?

The statblock is "this is what we reasonably expect the creature to try to do because this is what they're normally best at/what their instincts are". It's not a limitation.

Grand Lodge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
All creatures are capable of unarmed strikes
Can you cite text on that?

Certainly.

Natural Attacks wrote:
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.

The PRD disagrees with that text. Can you find clarification about that?

PRD wrote:
Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making attacks with both hands.


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Okay so I thought I would post the build I am currently playing in PFS. The MoMS errata did force me to change a few things and the build is a bit all over the place. But I think I managed allright.

Kitsune fox build:

Starting stats:
STR: 8(6 while in fox shape)
DEX: 18(+2 stat increase +4 belt +4beast shape +4 rage +4 mutagen=36)
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 14

Traits: That will save trait I can never remember, Berserker of the society(6)

1 Barbarian(urban rager)1: Weapon finesse
2 Barbarian(urban rager)2: Lesser abyssal blood
3 Fighter(mutation warrior)1: Fox shape, Extra rage power: Fiend totem
4 Swashbucler(mouser)1
5 Brawler1(snakebite striker): Combat reflexes
6 Fighter(mutation warrior)2: snake style
7 Fighter(mutation warrior)3: snake sidewind
8 Fighter(mutation warrior)4
9 Fighter(mutation warrior)5: snake fang, (Iron will?)

Not sure why I decided to go for snake style instead of monkey style. Perhaps because you can get it done sooner(since this is a PFS build).
Of course I think the optimal build would to be a Halfling with ring of seven lovely colours.
I do have 13 rounds of rage but so far I have never actually finished them in a single day.
This is just a rough draft since I don't have the character on me at the moment.

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Birthmark is my favorite trait, its only vs mind effecting but it's a +2.

And it was absolutely hillarious being used as a holy symbol by a cleric of gorum when his holy symbol got sundered.

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Put another way... look at the various Bestiary books and other stat blocks. See a lot of 'unarmed attack' entries for birds and other creatures without humanoid limbs? Or... any such entries for that matter?
A Ghouls statblock does not have an unarmed strike entry. Are you saying he can no longer kick now that he has claws?

Ummm... do ghouls still have "humanoid limbs"? Yes? Then I presumably wasn't talking about them when I said "creatures without humanoid limbs".

Quote:
The statblock is "this is what we reasonably expect the creature to try to do because this is what they're normally best at/what their instincts are". It's not a limitation.

Absolutely true. However, given the years Pathfinder has been out and the thousands of stat blocks produced... why is there not ONE (I checked the monster databases on d20 PFSRD) showing the kind of thing being argued for here?

You can certainly argue that the fact it has never been done does not prove that it cannot be done... but the weight of history clearly tilts the odds towards one side here.

Likewise, the text quoted by TOZ (and Darksol) also implies a connection between humanoid form and 'unarmed attacks', rather than 'natural attacks'.


Note: unarmed strikes are not lost via polymorphism because unarmed strikes are explicitly called out in the rules as not being natural weapons or a natural attack. If I recall correctly from when I looked through the rules a few years ago, there was only one instance in the rules (across 3-4 rule books at the time) where unarmed strikes are mistaken for natural attacks and it is due to copy/paste from 3.5 era.

So, because unarmed strikes are explicitly not natural attacks or natural weapons, and polymorph calls out losing access to natural attacks/weapons, you do not, per RAW, lose your unarmed strike.

Here's a thread I made in unarmed/natural attacks. Granted it's 4 years old now and pointless to bring up, but it exists.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
All creatures are capable of unarmed strikes
Can you cite text on that?

Certainly.

Natural Attacks wrote:
Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do.

The PRD disagrees with that text. Can you find clarification about that?

PRD wrote:
Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making attacks with both hands.

It appears they stealth-errata'd the text I showed, which means only the creature types listed can make unarmed strikes. Makes no sense in my opinion, since every creature should be able to make some sort of unarmed attack (which is what an unarmed strike represents), but them's the breaks.

Well, that puts a pretty big nail in the build's coffin, unless you want to try and get UCMonk's Flurry of Blows along with Feral Combat Training.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

My first printing of the Bestiary has that text, so if it was stealth errataed it happened twice.

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It appears they stealth-errata'd the text I showed

No, the text TOZ posted appears in the first printing of the original Bestiary. So no 'errata' involved, stealth or otherwise.

Rather, the question is where did the alternate wording on the PFSRD site come from?

Quote:
Makes no sense in my opinion, since every creature should be able to make some sort of unarmed attack (which is what an unarmed strike represents), but them's the breaks.

For most creatures those 'unarmed attacks' are some form of 'natural attack'. Even creatures that can punch often have it represented as a 'slam' natural attack rather than an 'unarmed strike'.


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Off of the top of my head, recent FAQ/errata that could impact these builds are as follows:

- Master of Many Styles
- Size increases no longer stacking
- Bonuses from ability scores no longer stacking
- Any changes to the handful of abilities that add Dex to damage


CBDunkerson wrote:


Ummm... do ghouls still have "humanoid limbs"? Yes? Then I presumably wasn't talking about them when I said "creatures without humanoid limbs".

Your argument was that creatures didn't have an unarmed strike in the statblock, so they couldn't unarmed strike.

Ghouls obviously can unarmed strike, but don't have it in their statblock.

Therefore the idea that you need it in your statblock to use it is bunk.

Quote:
Absolutely true. However, given the years Pathfinder has been out and the thousands of stat blocks produced... why is there not ONE (I checked the monster databases on d20 PFSRD) showing the kind of thing being argued for here?

Because the kind of thing being tossed around here sets a sillier tone for the game than the designers would like.

Quote:
Likewise, the text quoted by TOZ (and Darksol) also implies a connection between humanoid form and 'unarmed attacks', rather than 'natural attacks'.

Because humanoids don't have natural attacks. (strange hairless clawless teethless things that they are)


I wonder how much the new charisma monk will add to this build.


How's this build holding up as of November 2016? Nerfed to obsoletion?


sojoocy wrote:
How's this build holding up as of November 2016? Nerfed to obsoletion?

the master of many styles nerf last year? hurt it pretty badly, being unable to get monkeystyle before level 11 hurts pretty badly. It (and a lot of variations) are still good not but omgwtf good.

Liberty's Edge

I can't find any info about modern variations of this build :L got any links bud? Believe it or not I'm *actually* glad it got nerfed, I love the build concept but I'd hate to be "That guy." to THAT degree.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
sojoocy wrote:
How's this build holding up as of November 2016? Nerfed to obsoletion?
the master of many styles nerf last year? hurt it pretty badly, being unable to get monkeystyle before level 11 hurts pretty badly. It (and a lot of variations) are still good not but omgwtf good.

If the DM allows 3rd Party, the majority of Monk archetypes were converted to Unchained Monk by Everyman Gaming... making it so that this idea could still be viable.


Honestly monkey style isn't really a requirement for the build to work. Just go barbarian 2/mouser swash 1/anything else(I went mutation warrior fighter). I am using the kitsune version of the build by the way.

Grand Lodge

This is why we can't have nice things dex to damage. Ruin the core mechanics, ruin everything.

There should be rules on how much you can multiclass and how many archetypes you can pick up. Once you break the game like this you ruin it for the rest of us.

You glorious min/max bastard. I can't wait to surprise people with this.

Sovereign Court

I am still doing a kitsune version.
Swash(mouser) 1 / Warpriest(sacred fist) 1 (of Dikitsu) / Occultist 11.
Snake style for piercing unarmed strikes, artifice blessing for when I need to dig through the adamantine door.

Can cast all occultist spells while in fox shape, if the implements are an issue for your hm (doesn't like you carrying your transmutation sandal in your mouth) pick up a polymorphic pouch and attach them to it.

Still feels reasonably good, damage isn't amazing, but Occultist gives me enough other tricks to contribute. And stacked defenses. Just being grappled is a horror if you didn't already have freedom of moment running. Can "buff" using a scroll of beast shape 4 for a tiny magical beast for higher stats. Or elemental body if being tiny just isn't working.

Antilife shell is a problem, but that's what you took the unraveling focus power for, right?


Firebug wrote:
Can cast all occultist spells while in fox shape, if the implements are an issue for your hm (doesn't like you carrying your transmutation sandal in your mouth) pick up a polymorphic pouch and attach them to it.

Your implement must be presented when casting occultist spells which you cannot really do while they are inside an extradimensional pouch.


can it be sone WITHOUT needing any magical gear?
let's see:
1 lvl mouser halfling.
4 level druid (+shaping focus, shape as level 8)
4 levels unchained rogue (Vexing Dodger)
2 levels monk or unarmed fighter.

wild shape into a tiny bird , dex to damage comes from rogue.
no items needed....

Sovereign Court

andreww wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Can cast all occultist spells while in fox shape, if the implements are an issue for your hm (doesn't like you carrying your transmutation sandal in your mouth) pick up a polymorphic pouch and attach them to it.
Your implement must be presented when casting occultist spells which you cannot really do while they are inside an extradimensional pouch.

You misunderstand. The pouch doesn't polymorph with you. The implements are attached to the pouch, like an amulet chain wrapped around around a buckle with a prism and a small piece of a metal mirror and a coin with a hole in the center hanging from it (which is four implements). Or just carry around a sandal with the other implements strapped to it. (And the mending Cantrip for... Flavor)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Firebug wrote:
The implements are attached to the pouch, like an amulet chain wrapped around around a buckle with a prism and a small piece of a metal mirror and a coin with a hole in the center hanging from it (which is four implements). Or just carry around a sandal with the other implements strapped to it. (And the mending Cantrip for... Flavor)

I'm not sure how holding a bundle of four items wired together in your mouth counts as presenting a particular one of those items...

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666bender wrote:

can it be sone WITHOUT needing any magical gear?

let's see:
1 lvl mouser halfling.
4 level druid (+shaping focus, shape as level 8)
4 levels unchained rogue (Vexing Dodger)
2 levels monk or unarmed fighter.

wild shape into a tiny bird , dex to damage comes from rogue.
no items needed....

Or, if you're the GM, start with something that covers most of it by default. I've got an Atomie NPC who has a lot of overlap with 'songbird' builds. No shape change needed... though he does use his reduce person SLA on himself to get down to Fine size for truly ludicrous bonuses.

Sovereign Court

Kurald Galain wrote:
Firebug wrote:
The implements are attached to the pouch, like an amulet chain wrapped around around a buckle with a prism and a small piece of a metal mirror and a coin with a hole in the center hanging from it (which is four implements). Or just carry around a sandal with the other implements strapped to it. (And the mending Cantrip for... Flavor)
I'm not sure how holding a bundle of four items wired together in your mouth counts as presenting a particular one of those items...

I would assume it's just like presenting a holy symbol.

Haven't you seen The Mummy? Totally a bunch of implements wired together.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Firebug wrote:

I would assume it's just like presenting a holy symbol.

Haven't you seen The Mummy? Totally a bunch of implements wired together.

Precisely my point. Presenting a specific item out of a bundle of items requires hands, just like it does in The Mummy.

Sovereign Court

Kurald Galain wrote:
Firebug wrote:

I would assume it's just like presenting a holy symbol.

Haven't you seen The Mummy? Totally a bunch of implements wired together.
Precisely my point. Presenting a specific item out of a bundle of items requires hands, just like it does in The Mummy.

Nothing in holy symbol says you need to use a hand, or have a hand free. We're also talking 3 items on a chain (the fourth) compared to a dozen in Mummy.

Are you saying a genius level (int 18) person with max ranks in sense motive, diplomacy and bluff will have a hard time emphasising which item out of a 'bundle' of 4? Nevermind that simply having a holy symbol tattoo be visible is enough.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Firebug wrote:
Are you saying a genius level (int 18) person with max ranks in sense motive, diplomacy and bluff will have a hard time emphasising which item out of a 'bundle' of 4?

So how are you talking, given that you have a bundle of items in your mouth?

Quote:
Nevermind that simply having a holy symbol tattoo be visible is enough.

But we're not talking about holy symbols, we're talking about Occultist implements. Please tell me how an Occultist can use tattoos as implements?


CBDunkerson wrote:
Or, if you're the GM, start with something that covers most of it by default. I've got an Atomie NPC who has a lot of overlap with 'songbird' builds. No shape change needed... though he does use his reduce person SLA on himself to get down to Fine size for truly ludicrous bonuses.

Though reduce person doesn't work on fey since they're not of the humanoid type. Perhaps he has some human blood somehow? Humans seem to get around more than even dragons.

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avr wrote:
Though reduce person doesn't work on fey since they're not of the humanoid type. Perhaps he has some human blood somehow? Humans seem to get around more than even dragons.

As there is no 'reduce monster' spell, I allow reduce (and enlarge) to work on anything humanoid in appearance rather than only the 'humanoid' game term type.

Dark Archive

CBDunkerson wrote:
As there is no 'reduce monster' spell, I allow reduce (and enlarge) to work on anything humanoid in appearance rather than only the 'humanoid' game term type.

Wait, why isn't there a Reduce Monster spell? That is something you'd think would be in the game as it has come up in fantasy in the past.


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I have went through core and bestiary 1 trying to find the most relevant passages about unarmed strikes as fairly as I could. These are the ones I have found and how I read them. I'm make my best attempt to read them fairly and put minimal commentary in my post. Apologies for not grabbing page numbers I hope this helps the conversation.

Quote:
All characters are proficient with unarmed strikes and any natural weapons possessed by their race.
Quote:

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points

of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small
character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk
or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat
can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes,
at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is
considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that
give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply
your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier
to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes
do not count as natural weapons (see Chapter 8)

Improved unarmed strike has not prerequisite. How do you improve something you don't have. Any character can take it.

Quote:

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or

creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A
monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature
with natural physical weapons all count as being armed
(see natural attacks)

Natural attacks according to the core rule book are a sub set or special type of unarmed attack. All characters have unarmed attacks some have better unarmed attacks.

Quote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in

combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used
for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw
attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a
longsword.

Unarmed attacks can be used together with natural weapons so one does not preclude the other.

Bestiary one reference in full that has caused some confusion.

Quote:
Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making attacks with both hands. See Table 3–1 for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size. Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.

In context the above passage says if you don't have natural weapons you can still attack. But says nothing of the contrary if you have natural weapons or are of some other race you cannot. Johnny, Susie and Jack don't live near a grocery store. They can however get their milk at the convenience store near by. This does not mean that no other people can buy milk at a convenience store. I know analogous sentences are lame


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Hello guys,

I guess I'm necro'ing this topic as nobody in my region as yet to play that tiny ball of feather/fur (at least my captain never heard of it).

I've been interested in it since it's kinda challenging to build for a veteran player.

So, iirc this build seems to need to be adapted a bit since the nerf of MoMS. To a lesser extent, some monster may not be able to use unarmed strike, but that seems to be cleared somewhat by the post above.

All in all, from what I see the build seems to evolve a bit to two versions :
- Unarmed strike version : the initial version of the build that synergize a lot with the MOMS monk archetype (RIP) / Champion of Irori paladin archetype / Mouser swashbuckler archetype. All were getting a lot to this build Mouser for manoeuvrability, MOMS for combined Snake + Monkey style and CoI for saves, more bonuses and all.
- A recent natural attacks version : in a word, a lot less synergy but less ambiguity regarding the rules that's clearing the monster unarmed attack post and getting 4 natural attacks to the pot (as kitsune).
The second build is there (thanks Woodoodoo).

Now here's the thing, should the tiny ball of feather/fur should continue to fonus on unarmed attacks?

Here's one thing that's again slowing the build feat's progression : Shashbuckler finesse and Agile
I somewhat agree with that point as Agile is not a feat. We could all say that the APG was badly written and clearly intend to works with Agile, in a PFS game RAW of the master word.

I'm gonna debrief a bit about the details of the 2 variations.

First OP Build (need rework)

Spoiler:
Halfling
Str: 6
Dex: 20 (boost Dex every 4 levels)
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Classes:
Level 1: Swashbuckler (Mouser)
Level 2: Fighter (unarmed fighter)
Level 3: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 4: Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master)
Level 5: Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master)
Level 6: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 7: Slayer
Level 8: Slayer
Level 9: Slayer
Level 10: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 11: Paladin (Iroran)

Feats:
Level 1: weapon finesse (from swashbuckler)
Level 1: Piranha strike
Level 2: Monkey Style (bonus from unarmed fighter)
Level 3: Snake Style
Level 4: Monkey Shine (bonus from Monk MoMS)
Level 5: Snake Fang (bonus from Monk MoMS)
Level 5: Combat reflexes
Level 7: Stand Still
Level 7: Ranger Combat Style: Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast)
Level 9: Risky Striker
Level 11: Outflank


  • Level 2 ~ 6 may have to be reworked as per MoMS Errata and Fighter choice to help rush those style feats.
  • As the build come online we're talking about 5 (2 unarmed + 3 natural) attacks post level 6/7 with unchained monk (decent replacement?) and divine grace.
  • If we continue on the road of unarmed attack I think Paladin/Monk combo is a must as it can bring 2 feats + WIS to AC + saves (LG alignment is going well with that).
  • Unarmed fighter is getting us Snake Style free of prerecquise so it helps the build getting online earlier, we should keep it.
  • I would also replace the first feat with weapon finesse as I said above about the rule ambiguity.
  • I threw a level of urban bloodrager for +4 dex and 2 natural attacks (at -5 after the unarmed strike sequence)

Here's what I could come up with, it's incomplete and have quite some holes :

Level 1: Swashbuckler (Mouser)/ Weapon Finesse
Level 2: Fighter (unarmed fighter) / Snake Style(b)
Level 3: Unchained Monk / Combat Reflexes(b), FREE FEAT SLOT!!!
Level 4: Unchained Monk / Dodge(b)
Level 5: Paladin (Iroran) / Piranha Strike
Level 6: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 7: Urban Bloodrager (draconic bloodline)/ Snake Sidewind

Below number section include no items other than Agile Amulet.

Attack bonus 17 while raging + piranha strike + personnal trial + snake style :
- Attack bonus : 7 BAB + 9 DEX + 2 SIZE + 1 Trial - 2 PA
- Attack routine : +17/+17/+12/+12/+12
*Note : mixing natural attacks impose a -5 bonus on natural attack rolls.

Damage bonus 14 : 9 DEX + 4 PA + 1 Trial
*Note : Improvable further level 7 with Risky Striker and if I'm right mixing natural with unarmed treat them as light weapon thus dividing per 2 the damage bonus for natural attacks.

CMB 15 : 7 BAB + 9 DEX + 1 Trial - 2 SIZE
CMD 21(25) : 7 BAB + 9 DEX + 1 Trial - 2 SIZE - 3 STR + (AC bonuses : 2 CHA to AC + 1 Dodge + 1 Trial)
*Note : CMB + CMD can be boosted by +2 with Equality for all

AC 28 while raging + trial (no items at all) : 9 DEX + 2 CHA + 2 WIS + 1 DODGE + 2 SIZE + 1 Trial + 1 Nat.

Saves :
14 For : 2 BR + 3 Mk + 3 Pd + 1 CON + 2 CHA + 1 Race (+ 1 Trial)
17 Ref : 3 Mk + 2 Sb + 9 DEX + 2 CHA + 1 Race (+ 1 Trial )
8 Will : 3 Pd + 2 WIS + 2 CHA (+ 1 Trial)

Highlights of the hastly made revised version :


  • Iroran Paladin : CHA to AC, Trial, CHA to saves
  • Monk UC : Two free feats, can flurry when level<5, WIS to AC
  • Mouser : Manoeuvrability + Panache pool
  • Urban Bloodrager : no alignment limitation, rage (+4 dex), 2 natural attacks
  • There's a *ucking free slot for those kitsune maniacs (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Kitsune fox natural attacks build

Spoiler:

Starting stats:
STR: 8(6 while in fox shape)
DEX: 18(+2 stat increase +4 belt +4beast shape +4 rage +4 mutagen=36)
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 14
CHA: 14

Traits: That will save trait I can never remember, Berserker of the society(6)

1 Barbarian(urban rager)1: Weapon finesse
2 Barbarian(urban rager)2: Lesser abyssal blood
3 Fighter(mutation warrior)1: Fox shape, Extra rage power: Fiend totem combat reflexes (b)
4 Swashbucler(mouser)1
5 Brawler1(snakebite striker): Combat reflexes Extra rage power: Fiend totem
6 Fighter(mutation warrior)2: snake style
7 Fighter(mutation warrior)3: snake sidewind
8 Fighter(mutation warrior)4
9 Fighter(mutation warrior)5: snake fang, (Iron will?)


(Credits to Woodoodoo)
*Note : there was a slight error in the feat selection, fighter do get combat feats if I'm right so extra power nor fox shape were elligible.

Below number section include no items other than Agile Amulet.

Attack bonus 19 while raging + mutagen + snake style :
- Attack bonus : 7 BAB + 10 DEX + 2 SIZE
- Attack routine : +19/+19/+14/+14/+14/+14

Damage bonus 10 +1d6 (sneak attack) : 10 DEX
*Note : before you go all yolo and bring Vulpine Pounce up, I'll remind you that Fox Shape is not your kitsune form sadly...

CMB 15 : 7 BAB + 10 DEX - 2 SIZE
CMD 23 : 7 BAB + 10 DEX - 2 SIZE - 2 STR

AC 25 while raging + mutagen (no items at all) : 10 DEX + 2 SIZE + 3 Nat.

Saves :
10 For : 3 Bar + 2 Br + 3 Fi + 2 CON
15 Ref : 2 Br + 1 Fi + 2 Sb + 10 DEX
2 Will (ouch) : 1 Fi + 2 Wi - 1 Mutagen

Highlights :


  • Barbarian : rage, uncanny dodge and a whoopping 3 natural attack (claw and gore), plus the bite it's 4 natural attacks you got there at full BAB
  • Mutation warrior : a free feat, mutagens, 2 feats and +1 will save vs fear
  • Snakebite Striker : unarmed/natural mix goodness (feats and effects), sneak attack (good with the mouser)
  • Mouser : Manoeuvrability + Panache pool
  • As always going full natural attacks yolo is costing to the build (saves mostly)
  • The sneak attack + the additionnal gore attack may or not offscale the fact that we have nothing that scale with damage (no piranha, no risky striker)

If I've made errors or if you see a clearn substitution that could help the build please do so.

Note : after some research about the rework of OP build Mutagenic Mauler can be considered to swap for the free feat slot and giving up the Unarmed Fighter level to get Dex Mutagen (oh god what have I done). It's also possible to give up Dodge to get Improved Unarmed Strike ofc (but if you don't like AoO that could be criticals...). The order of the class is also not extremely optimal but it's swapable (swashbuckler level should come after the songbird ring has been bought).


Anything new in the last year or so that would improve this build?


I have come to the conclusion that snake style is not good for this build unless you have some way to to get reach on your natural attack.
The interaction is really weird.
The enemy will five foot step out of my attack range so I hit him with an attack from mouser swashbuckler - He then hits me with an attack and since I am out of reach I can't use snake style/fang - I do However use the mouser ability to get back into his square as an immediate action - Then the enemy might hit me again and then I can't usesnake style since I already burned my immediate action to get back into his square(although I guess I still get the first AoO from snake fang). I think I might have to just be patient and wait for monkey style at 11. Not sure what feats I should be getting instead.


The Songbird is no longer legal in Pathfinder Society.

Campaign Clarifications wrote:

Page 259—Replace the text of the ring of seven lovely colors with the following.

Ring of Seven Lovely Colors; Price 7,000 gp; Slot ring; CL 7th; Weight —; Aura moderate abjuration and transmutation

This golden ring with seven brightly colored gems functions as a ring of protection +1. In addition, seven times per day, the wearer can use beast shape II to transform into a songbird for 7 minutes (use the statistics for a raven). The ring's magic shares Shelyn's preference for mercy and peace over violence. If its wearer willingly makes an attack while in songbird form, the polymorph effect ends immediately and the rings's songbird transformation ability deactivates for 1 week. If the wearer is forced to make an attack against her will (such as from the effects of confusion), the songbird form does not deactivate.

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