The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)


Advice

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Grand Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:

I can't believe I've never heard of this build till now. It is a positively brilliant idea and the OP has absolutely earned my respect for his creativity and game mastery. I will definitely be putting a version of this in my Crazy Character Emporium if the OP doesn't mind. It will totally fit right in.

Thanks Ravingdork. I would be honored for you stick a variant in to your Emporium, I'm a big fan of a lot of your builds in there.

As Taenia mentioned earlier, if you wanted a less magic item reliant character the best option in a kitsune using fox shape. However this does cost an extra feat.


Thanks for this. I now know what I'm playing after my GM drives my current character crazy/out of the adventure.

It also took me longer than I'd like to admit to put your character name together. "Toren... I didn't think that was a PF deity..."


So I mainly use d20pfsrd for all the rules. I could not find Iroran Paladin there, but I did find Enlightened Paladin, which from what I can tell has all the same class features as Iroran Paladin, which I was able to find on a different source. Are these classes identical? If so, can I take levels in Enlightened Paladin instead, which from what I can tell has no deity requirement?


Yes. They can't say "Iroran" on pfsrd due to copyright issues. They use general names for things like that.

Scarab Sages

There is no "Enlightened Paladin" What d20pfsrd calls the Enlightened Paladin is the Irorian Paladin because d20pfsrd strips all golarion content and in some cases completely changes the rules meaning from the print version.

I would highly recommend using Archives of Nethys instead of d20pfsrd if you care at all about the original content of the rules posted.


Wouldn't someone just use a Enchantment spell to lock down the character?

Grand Lodge

Issac Daneil wrote:
Wouldn't someone just use a Enchantment spell to lock down the character?

Isn't that a fear for any character? What makes this character more particularly vulnerable than others?

Scarab Sages

Between the monk and paladin levels, the Will save on this thing is quite high.

Sovereign Court

Issac Daneil wrote:
Wouldn't someone just use a Enchantment spell to lock down the character?

The biggest weakness is probably vs the Steal manuver. Low strength/size hurts CMD, and losing the amulet will cut away most of the offense. Not super weak against it - but a bit so.

Scarab Sages

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Issac Daneil wrote:
Wouldn't someone just use a Enchantment spell to lock down the character?
The biggest weakness is probably vs the Steal manuver. Low strength/size hurts CMD, and losing the amulet will cut away most of the offense. Not super weak against it - but a bit so.

How would they target it? The amulet is melded with your body while under a polymorph effect.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Issac Daneil wrote:
Wouldn't someone just use a Enchantment spell to lock down the character?
The biggest weakness is probably vs the Steal manuver. Low strength/size hurts CMD, and losing the amulet will cut away most of the offense. Not super weak against it - but a bit so.
How would they target it? The amulet is melded with your body while under a polymorph effect.

Right - teaches me for not comboing my thoughts together properly. I meant in combo with dispel magic for the polymorph. He can always polymorph back - but it gives time for a manuver.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

One problem can be CMD and grapple. Since you don't threaten until you are in their square they can simply grapple you. Once grappled you can be in trouble as you are held adjacent and therefore out of reach of your opponent.

Trip, disarm, sunder, steal shouldn't work on you (unless going fox shape) but creatures can 5' step away, provoking from mouser, and then grapple you. A high dex plus high escape artist can help or getting freedom of movement.

Grand Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Issac Daneil wrote:
Wouldn't someone just use a Enchantment spell to lock down the character?
The biggest weakness is probably vs the Steal manuver. Low strength/size hurts CMD, and losing the amulet will cut away most of the offense. Not super weak against it - but a bit so.
How would they target it? The amulet is melded with your body while under a polymorph effect.

Also this is intended for PFS, I've never played a scenario where the GMs mess with the player's stuff. Well.. there was once when I had a dagger stolen to frame me for murder.. But that wasn't in combat and wasn't my combat gear.

Scarab Sages

I've seen Heat/Chill metal show up in a few scenarios, but I haven't seen anything target PC equipment for Steal or Sunder. That said, I've not played that many PFS scenarios.

Scarab Sages

Wind Wall/Fickle Winds will shut it down, but not certain how often it comes up on enemy NPCs.

Scarab Sages

Cao Phen wrote:
Wind Wall/Fickle Winds will shut it down, but not certain how often it comes up on enemy NPCs.

It really doesn't. Wind wall stops tiny flying creatures from crossing. You still have your 10 ft land speed, you can simply land and walk through the windwall.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

Now I will explain the real nemesis and one true enemy of this build.

Doors


If a rat can make it in, so can you. And let's face it, they basically get into everything.


So assuming someone plays this build past lvl 12, what would you suggest putting levels into from that point on? Slayer, Paladin, Monk? I also wouldn't mind a more extensive list of all the items best used with this build from the OP or anyone else that has extensive knowledge of wondrous items and enhancements.


fumblemuffin wrote:
So assuming someone plays this build past lvl 12, what would you suggest putting levels into from that point on? Slayer, Paladin, Monk? I also wouldn't mind a more extensive list of all the items best used with this build from the OP or anyone else that has extensive knowledge of wondrous items and enhancements.

Honestly if you were going past 12, I'd tweek the build to be less/non magic item dependent. The number of magical abilities that will wreck your day increases and become common place and standard tactics to deal with opponents at those levels.

Part of the reason this build works out so well is the limitations enforced in PFS. Like any other martial it is basically going to go downhill past the PFS level cap as creatures you don't see normally in PFS start making appearances and the build has problems coping with them.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
If a rat can make it in, so can you. And let's face it, they basically get into everything.

Only if the GM rules there is room to Escape Artist into. But really, you just shift back, open the door, then use another use of the ring.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
If a rat can make it in, so can you. And let's face it, they basically get into everything.
Only if the GM rules there is room to Escape Artist into. But really, you just shift back, open the door, then use another use of the ring.

It goes without saying most times, everything is reliant on GM allowing it.

Mechanically a rat is a tiny animal, they have no special ability like squeeze or what not. If they can do it, so should you as a tiny animal (just slower due to land movement speed). There is no mechanical reason to keep you from doing the same and you have significantly higher intelligence than a rat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I just rule that most doors don't have the space between them to squeeze through. Unless the carpenter was an ogre or something. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

Most rats don't go through doorways, they go around or under them. So you might be able to find a different route or attempt to squeeze or if the space is too small make the DC 30 check to squeeze into a space 2 sizes smaller.


So just to clarify, Snake form's piercing attacks dont apply to the natural attacks right? Since natural attacks are classified as something different from unarmed attacks.

Scarab Sages

fumblemuffin wrote:
So just to clarify, Snake form's piercing attacks dont apply to the natural attacks right? Since natural attacks are classified as something different from unarmed attacks.

Unless you have Feral Combat Training, correct. If you have FCT in that natural weapon, you can use snake style to change that natural weapon's damage type to piercing.


The Bite, however, is piercing by default if I'm not mistaken, and since natural weapons are light weapons, does that allow weapon finesse, and from there agile, to be applied to the bite?

Scarab Sages

Yes. A bite is a light weapon, and can be used with finesse and an agile amulet of mighty fists.


Hamatulatsu + Swashbuckler's Finesse works well. Agile works with everything then.

Scarab Sages

Or Weapon Versatility. You can change damage type without being forced to rely on a specific Style, and unlike Hamatulatsu, it's PFS legal.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Taenia wrote:

Now I will explain the real nemesis and one true enemy of this build.

Doors

There is a simple solution to this build that adds some hilarity and flavor. At the higher levels when the damage bonus is higher than the door's hardness, the songbird of doom could full attack the door!

"Few, it can't open doors so we are safe!"
[short pause]
[THUD THUD THUD]
[The door has three holes in it, none of which are big enough for the bird to fly through, yet]
"Oh crap we are gonna die! Oh crap we are gonna die!"

Scarab Sages

Terek wrote:
Taenia wrote:

Now I will explain the real nemesis and one true enemy of this build.

Doors

There is a simple solution to this build that adds some hilarity and flavor. At the higher levels when the damage bonus is higher than the door's hardness, the songbird of doom could full attack the door!

"Few, it can't open doors so we are safe!"
[short pause]
[THUD THUD THUD]
[The door has three holes in it, none of which are big enough for the bird to fly through, yet]
"Oh crap we are gonna die! Oh crap we are gonna die!"

I've heard of woodpeckers, but this is ridiculous.


lol bird then says "Here's Johnny!"


Hamatulatsu isn't PFS legal? Oh hell, your right. Weapon Versatility it is!

edit: Hrm... I don't own either book. I'll have to add that to my purchase list.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
fumblemuffin wrote:
The Bite, however, is piercing by default if I'm not mistaken...

Sort of. A bite deals bludgeoning, piercing, AND slashing damage.

Scarab Sages

Lune wrote:
Hamatulatsu isn't PFS legal? Oh hell, your right. Weapon Versatility it is!

I really wish the Inner Sea World Guide version of Hamatulatsu was legal, as it fixed the problems with the original version. While the fluff of the feat is evil leaning, the Hamatulatsu Master archetype in Inner Sea Combat is legal, so it doesn't make sense to ban it on fluff reasons.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The bird just flits about, darting THROUGH people and objects like some kind of magical bullet.


Taenia wrote:

I recommend getting 3 levels of Sacred Fist Warpriest rather than Slayer. Get the Fates Favored Trait as one of your starting options. You will only lose 1 BAB and slayer tricks but gain Flurry plus Fervor and Blessings.

Normally round one you go bird, with warpriest you can as a swift drop a divine favor (4/day with your stats at level 3) for a +3 luck bonus to hit/dmg (+2 from Caster level, +1 from Trait).

Now flurry for 3 attacks. You don't get you natural but you will still get iterative.

I don't multiclass much, but if you were to do this, would you get the AC Bonus from both monk and Sacred Fist Warpriest? They have the same class feature name, and work exactly the same way, but they are coming from 2 different sources. Also, one is an Ex ability and one is a Su ability. In general what are the rules for multiclassing when it comes to abilities with the same name/effect?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Seriously, Aelryinth, read BigNorseWolf's posts and imagine he was saying that to you. How would that make you feel? Now imagine you aren't you: now imagine you are an emotionally sensitive middle schooler who gets made fun of at school because he plays Dungeons and Dragons, the gets made fun of more when he tries to explain the difference between Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder, you know, the kind of child we read about in the papers committing suicide because he's being bullied and comes onto these forums to connect with like-minded people.

When is BigNorseWolf's tone appropriate? It's not easy for me to take.

This is where I feel a need to step in, kiddo.

Long time lurker, maybe 2nd time poster. Anyway...

If the situation described above truly is what you are finding yourself in, then I really cannot recommend using this forum as the proper medium to deal with this problem.

I would advise you to speak with your school guidance counselor and/or your parents ASAP.

Look after yourself.

Grand Lodge

fumblemuffin wrote:
Taenia wrote:

I recommend getting 3 levels of Sacred Fist Warpriest rather than Slayer. Get the Fates Favored Trait as one of your starting options. You will only lose 1 BAB and slayer tricks but gain Flurry plus Fervor and Blessings.

Normally round one you go bird, with warpriest you can as a swift drop a divine favor (4/day with your stats at level 3) for a +3 luck bonus to hit/dmg (+2 from Caster level, +1 from Trait).

Now flurry for 3 attacks. You don't get you natural but you will still get iterative.

I don't multiclass much, but if you were to do this, would you get the AC Bonus from both monk and Sacred Fist Warpriest? They have the same class feature name, and work exactly the same way, but they are coming from 2 different sources. Also, one is an Ex ability and one is a Su ability. In general what are the rules for multiclassing when it comes to abilities with the same name/effect?

Yes and no. The wisdom wouldn't count twice because it's coming from the same source (the ability score). The rest would because the Sacred Fist's is a deflection bonus while the Monk's is an AC bonus.

Grand Lodge

Tired Dad wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Seriously, Aelryinth, read BigNorseWolf's posts and imagine he was saying that to you. How would that make you feel? Now imagine you aren't you: now imagine you are an emotionally sensitive middle schooler who gets made fun of at school because he plays Dungeons and Dragons, the gets made fun of more when he tries to explain the difference between Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder, you know, the kind of child we read about in the papers committing suicide because he's being bullied and comes onto these forums to connect with like-minded people.

When is BigNorseWolf's tone appropriate? It's not easy for me to take.

This is where I feel a need to step in, kiddo.

Long time lurker, maybe 2nd time poster. Anyway...

If the situation described above truly is what you are finding yourself in, then I really cannot recommend using this forum as the proper medium to deal with this problem.

I would advise you to speak with your school guidance counselor and/or your parents ASAP.

Look after yourself.

Thank you for your concern. I'm not that emotionally sensitive middle schooler who is being made fun of at school, at least not anymore.

But nobody knew that before I said that. I didn't have to click on anything that said I was 18 or older to get on this forum.

And I don't think people who are going around flaming each other like that are giving any real consideration to the idea that they might be doing real harm. How are we supposed to know?

The answer is, WE'RE NOT supposed to know! We're supposed to keep a civil tone! And we're not supposed to tolerate seeing anyone talking that way to anyone.


Imbicatus wrote:
Terek wrote:
Taenia wrote:

Now I will explain the real nemesis and one true enemy of this build.

Doors

There is a simple solution to this build that adds some hilarity and flavor. At the higher levels when the damage bonus is higher than the door's hardness, the songbird of doom could full attack the door!

"Few, it can't open doors so we are safe!"
[short pause]
[THUD THUD THUD]
[The door has three holes in it, none of which are big enough for the bird to fly through, yet]
"Oh crap we are gonna die! Oh crap we are gonna die!"

I've heard of woodpeckers, but this is ridiculous.

The OP gets a lot of skill points with levels in Monk and Swashbuckler. Maybe he can take some ranks in Disable Device. It's an Attack of Opportunity build: he already has a high Dex.


Scott Wilhelm 324 wrote:

Thank you for your concern. I'm not that emotionally sensitive middle schooler who is being made fun of at school, at least not anymore.

But nobody knew that before I said that. I didn't have to click on anything that said I was 18 or older to get on this forum.

And I don't think people who are going around flaming each other like that are giving any real consideration to the idea that they might be doing real harm. How are we supposed to know?

The answer is, WE'RE NOT supposed to know! We're supposed to keep a civil tone! And we're not supposed to tolerate seeing anyone talking that way to anyone.

Fair enough.

Just making sure.

Carry on.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Tired Dad wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Seriously, Aelryinth, read BigNorseWolf's posts and imagine he was saying that to you. How would that make you feel? Now imagine you aren't you: now imagine you are an emotionally sensitive middle schooler who gets made fun of at school because he plays Dungeons and Dragons, the gets made fun of more when he tries to explain the difference between Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder, you know, the kind of child we read about in the papers committing suicide because he's being bullied and comes onto these forums to connect with like-minded people.

When is BigNorseWolf's tone appropriate? It's not easy for me to take.

This is where I feel a need to step in, kiddo.

Long time lurker, maybe 2nd time poster. Anyway...

If the situation described above truly is what you are finding yourself in, then I really cannot recommend using this forum as the proper medium to deal with this problem.

I would advise you to speak with your school guidance counselor and/or your parents ASAP.

Look after yourself.

I got into D&D as a freshman in high school during the whole witch hunt era at TSR where rumors were everywhere that D&D led to devil worship.

Been there, done that. I just told my parents it had nothing to do with that and those people were nuts, and were looking for excuses to blame others.

The same thing exists nowadays with kids who would rather sink into video games then the real world. My nephew is one of them. So, I'm really not sure where this line of inquiry is going, other then that neither RPG nor VG should dominate your life.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:
Tired Dad wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Seriously, Aelryinth, read BigNorseWolf's posts and imagine he was saying that to you. How would that make you feel? Now imagine you aren't you: now imagine you are an emotionally sensitive middle schooler who gets made fun of at school because he plays Dungeons and Dragons, the gets made fun of more when he tries to explain the difference between Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder, you know, the kind of child we read about in the papers committing suicide because he's being bullied and comes onto these forums to connect with like-minded people.

When is BigNorseWolf's tone appropriate? It's not easy for me to take.

This is where I feel a need to step in, kiddo.

Long time lurker, maybe 2nd time poster. Anyway...

If the situation described above truly is what you are finding yourself in, then I really cannot recommend using this forum as the proper medium to deal with this problem.

I would advise you to speak with your school guidance counselor and/or your parents ASAP.

Look after yourself.

I got into D&D as a freshman in high school during the whole witch hunt era at TSR where rumors were everywhere that D&D led to devil worship.

Been there, done that. I just told my parents it had nothing to do with that and those people were nuts, and were looking for excuses to blame others.

The same thing exists nowadays with kids who would rather sink into video games then the real world. My nephew is one of them. So, I'm really not sure where this line of inquiry is going, other then that neither RPG nor VG should dominate your life.

==Aelryinth

I wasn't going that way, but that's good advice.


Any good sources for flying in the Kitsune/fox build? My GM says if it's not on the d20pf site it doesn't exist, so the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors seems to be out of my reach.


claudekennilol wrote:
Yes and no. The wisdom wouldn't count twice because it's coming from the same source (the ability score). The rest would because the Sacred Fist's is a deflection bonus while the Monk's is an AC bonus.

Can you tell me where I can find this rule? I would like to read it exactly for myself.


Kiqjaq wrote:
Any good sources for flying in the Kitsune/fox build? My GM says if it's not on the d20pf site it doesn't exist, so the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors seems to be out of my reach.

Combat Trained Giant Bat Mount. A flying fox on a Flying Fox.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
fumblemuffin wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Yes and no. The wisdom wouldn't count twice because it's coming from the same source (the ability score). The rest would because the Sacred Fist's is a deflection bonus while the Monk's is an AC bonus.
Can you tell me where I can find this rule? I would like to read it exactly for myself.

This FAQ.

Basically, some bonuses are multisource bonuses, which means that bonus types that would normally stack, will not, as they share one of the multiple sources. You need to determine if a bonus, is a multisource bonus, depending on wording, and type of bonus. This effectively creates "typed" untyped bonuses.

I am sure this is covered in the unwritten rules somewhere, but since we can't really read those, we have this FAQ.


Ok so ability scores specifically don't stack, but what about other class features with the same name? How would having 2 sources of unarmed strike function? Would the levels stack or do you just use the higher of the two, making the other redundant?

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