The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)


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Grand Lodge

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In Pathfinder, the penalties for multi-classing have been mostly been eliminated except for the favored class bonus. As a result of this, with the appropriate build, one can create an incredibly dangerous melee fighter taking advantage of the many bonus feats different classes give at early levels.

The following build is a bit of theory crafted mayhem that is incredibly effective between levels 5 and 12, so the majority of the PFS career of a player. This character is screwed towards GMs who can apply credits to characters to bypass the first several levels of play, as this character only really becomes viable at about level 4 due to a couple of 4k gold items.

Finally before we begin a warning. This build is should only be played by experienced players who know what they're doing and are willing to incur the well deserved wrath of their GM. This build has a lot of moving parts and is very easy to screw up and take excessive time if you don't know the system well.

First the stats:
Halfling
Str: 6
Dex: 20 (boost Dex every 4 levels)
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Classes:
Level 1: Swashbuckler (Mouser)
Level 2: Fighter (unarmed fighter)
Level 3: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 4: Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master)
Level 5: Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master)
Level 6: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 7: Slayer
Level 8: Slayer
Level 9: Slayer
Level 10: Paladin (Iroran)
Level 11: Paladin (Iroran)

Feats:
Level 1: weapon finesse (from swashbuckler)
Level 1: Piranha strike
Level 2: Monkey Style (bonus from unarmed fighter)
Level 3: Snake Style
Level 4: Monkey Shine (bonus from Monk MoMS)
Level 5: Snake Fang (bonus from Monk MoMS)
Level 5: Combat reflexes
Level 7: Stand Still
Level 7: Ranger Combat Style: Aspect of the Beast (Claws of the Beast)
Level 9: Risky Striker
Level 11: Outflank

Next the two crucial items to this build:
Amulet of Mighty Fists (agile): This will allow you to have all of your attacks apply your dex to damage.
Ring of Seven Lovely Colors: This will allow you to transform into a tiny songbird for 10 minutes at a time, 7 times a day. Enough that you can be in songbird form for every single fight of a PFS scenario.
Ring of Eloquence: Allows you to speak with your party while in bird form.

How it all comes together:
When in bird form, you will get a +4 to dex, a -2 to strength and a +1 natural armor bonus to AC. In addition as a tiny creature you will get a +2 size modifier to hit and to AC.

Secondly, as a tiny creature, you use dex instead of strength for your CMB.

Third, and most crucially, tiny creatures can enter an enemy square freely, although this provokes attacks of opportunity. This will allow you to take advantage of the special mouser abilities as well as the feat Monkey Shine. Monkey shine is one of the key feats in this build, as it grants a +4 dodge bonus to AC when you are in an enemy square and a +4 bonus to hit while in the enemy square.

Fourth, snake style allows you to consider all unarmed strikes to be piercing weapons, making them qualify for swashbucklers finesse. In addition snake fang allows you to take an attack of opportunity every time an enemy swings against your character and misses. With an AC that will generally require almost every enemy to roll a 20 to hit you, and an almost unlimited number of AOOs, this will be a major advantage, especially since provoking every time you move in to attack will grant you an extra attack almost all of the time.

Fifth, the mouser grants the ability to flank an enemy when you are in their square and an ally is adjacent to you. This means that so long as you have another melee character in the party, you will be flanking nearly every round of combat. Additionally, the mouser can take an AOO every time an enemy leaves the mousers square, even if just using a 5 foot step. When combined with your high CMB and Stand still at level 7, you can pretty much prevent any enemy from run away from you.

Sixth, The dodging panache deed, will effectively give you the step up feat as well as a useful way of increasing your AC. The dodging panache deed allows you to take an immediate action to move 5 ft. when an enemy makes a melee attack against you and add your cha modifier as a dodge bonus to AC for a round. Since the deed does not specify which direction you need to go, you can use this as an easy way to enter an enemy square on their turn if they step back and strike at you. In addition since you should have a high cha, this should be a significant boost to your AC.

Key strengths of the build:
Ridiculous saves: Without any items, this character will have the following saves at level 12 as well as evasion:
Fort: +16
Ref: + 20
Will: +13

Ridiculous AC and touch AC:
One of the key strengths of this build is that you will be able to stack many many bonuses to your AC. First you will gain the size bonus, secondly you will get wisdom to AC from the monk. Third you will get charisma to dex AC from the Iroran Paladin (limited by number of paladin levels taken), Finally, you should have a ridiculous dex score from transforming and investing in dex boosting items. This score can be boosted and supplemented by the use of wands. I strongly encourage investing in wands of mage armor, barkskin, and shield. The level 12 character I have who is a slight variant of this build regularly has a 46 regular AC and a 36 touch AC.

Very High bonus to hit:
The combination of gaining a very high dex from changing shape, a +2 bonus to hit from tiny size, being only 1 level removed from being full BAB, and gaining a +4 to hit when in an enemy square from Monkey shine, means that this character should be able to hit most opponents on anything above a 4 most of the time from my personal experience.

Many attacks:
With this character, you will have 3 natural attacks as well as 3 regular weapon attacks at level 12. In addition, you will be able to counter-attack every attack made by the enemy who's square you are in so long as they miss. With your dex modifier, this should be enough for all of them.

High Damage per strike:
The other key benefit of this build is that in addition to having a good damage stat from dexterity, you will be able to greatly increase your damage by applying piranha strike and risky striker on all targets that are at least medium sized, which will be nearly every target you encounter.
For example at level 9, at the cost of decreasing AC by 3 and the bonus to hit by 3 you will get to add +12 to damage on each hit.

Key Weakness: anything with strength drain is a sign to run like hell. However, with your touch AC and the ability to fly, even then you should probably be fine in most cases.

I will continue to modify this and work to answer people's questions on the subject.


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*blink*

Grand Lodge

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Piranha-striking songbird you say?
Hmm...


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Wow... as a DM I would congratulate anyone who pulled this off in-game, but wouldn't allow it at the forefront. As a player, the DMs I play with wouldn't allow this period... Still pretty awesome build though.


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Quote:
Secondly, as a tiny creature, you use dex instead of strength for your CMB.

Can you cite this part? I think I know what you're doing but i want to make sure.

Grand Lodge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Quote:
Secondly, as a tiny creature, you use dex instead of strength for your CMB.
Can you cite this part? I think I know what you're doing but i want to make sure.

See pg. 198 of the Core Rulebook. " Creatures that are size tiny or smaller use their dexterity modifier in place of their strength modifier to determine their CMB"

On a side note I forget to mention the +1d6 sneak attack damage from slayer level 3. Still haven't gotten everything in yet.

Edit: One additional note. Since you will be battling in a flying form, as long as you enter the combat flying, you cannot be caught flat footed, as pg. 96 of the CRB states that "You are not considered flat-footed while flying"


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I have a similar Grippli character lying around with a 1 level dip into Vexing Dodger from Giant hunters handbook. The Limb Climber ability helps pull this kind of thing off in a more mundane way if your DM throws a book at you for being a bird.


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TOZ's Wandering Eye wrote:
*blink*

*poke*

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Breq of Toren wrote:
Edit: One additional note. Since you will be battling in a flying form, as long as you enter the combat flying, you cannot be caught flat footed, as pg. 96 of the CRB states that "You are not considered flat-footed while flying"

I'm not sure that's what that means, as such statements are usually countering the 'you are flat-footed while climbing/balancing/whatever' but I will have to research it better.


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Breq of Toren wrote:


Edit: One additional note. Since you will be battling in a flying form, as long as you enter the combat flying, you cannot be caught flat footed, as pg. 96 of the CRB states that "You are not considered flat-footed while flying"

Thats not what that means. It means you aren't flat footed JUST because you're flying. It doesn't prevent you from being flat footed while flying.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Breq of Toren wrote:


Edit: One additional note. Since you will be battling in a flying form, as long as you enter the combat flying, you cannot be caught flat footed, as pg. 96 of the CRB states that "You are not considered flat-footed while flying"

Thats not what that means. It means you aren't flat footed JUST because you're flying. It doesn't prevent you from being flat footed while flying.

I'd generally agree with you and would probably rule that way in my own game. I just mentioned it because I've seen it ruled the other way on occasions as well.


That is a cool and terrifying build.


I don't know what to say.


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You can do a very similar build with a kitsune that changes into a fox at bab +3

The Exchange

I want to know why you want to go Unarmed Fighter and Monk(MoMS).
Surely you'll qualify for some of the style feats you need without needing three as no-prerequisite bonus feats?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can do a very similar build with a kitsune that changes into a fox at bab +3

You do, however, lack +4 to Dex and +2 to Natural armor since Fox Shape functions as Beast Shape II and not Beast Shape IV.

Still, it could work. I think. I am not sure how much taking an extra feat would put you back.

I'll have to have a fiddle with this build, my main issue is that I am never allowed this much gold in my campaigns. I'd only be able to pick up the Amulet.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can do a very similar build with a kitsune that changes into a fox at bab +3

You do, however, lack +4 to Dex and +2 to Natural armor since Fox Shape functions as Beast Shape II and not Beast Shape IV.

hmmm?

This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.

Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Grand Lodge

Covert Operator wrote:

I want to know why you want to go Unarmed Fighter and Monk(MoMS).

Surely you'll qualify for some of the style feats you need without needing three as no-prerequisite bonus feats?

Couple of reasons. First, by taking those three levels you get 3 bonus feats, which is pretty good all on its own.

Second, without the no-prerequisite bonus feats, you would have to wait till level 9 to take snake fang and level 11 to take monkey shine, and wait till level 5 to take monkey style, so those feats allow you to get those crucial parts of the build far earlier.

Additionally, Master of Many-Styles is necessary in order to be able to use monkey style and snake style at the same time.

And then finally, kata master allows you to get back a lot of the deeds that are traded away by the mouser archetype which are all quite useful.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You can do a very similar build with a kitsune that changes into a fox at bab +3

The current build I that I ran to level 12 is actually a kitsune that revolves around the fox shape feat. The advantage of this build is that you are able to take the halfling racial feat "risky striker" which allows you to effectively apply power attack twice to all of your attacks.


How much damage would you be doing as a Tiny sized bird?


A question, don't you need Feral Combat Training somewhere in there?

Shadow Lodge

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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
How much damage would you be doing as a Tiny sized bird?

1dwhocares+massive Dex bonus :)

Scarab Sages

ShroudedInLight wrote:
A question, don't you need Feral Combat Training somewhere in there?

Only if you plan on using the bite attack. You can still make unarmed strikes in bird form. Punch with your talons or something.


What's the CMD in bird form?

Dark Archive

I advise you to post up front with all builds what your point buy is. This uses a 25 point buy, ilrgal for PFS, thus not worth suggestion for use in such.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

His ability scores are after level boosts.

Edit: Actually, I count him at 20 thanks to halfling racial bonuses and penalties.

-2
17
2
-4
5
2

20

Grand Lodge

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Natan Linggod 327 wrote:
How much damage would you be doing as a Tiny sized bird?

By my calculations at level 12 assuming all attacks hit and ideal circumstances, average damage die rolls would allow you to deal 247 damage in one round.

Tark, the CMD in bird form should be quite high. For example, the level 12 character I have with this build has a CMD of 36.

Liberty's Edge

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MADNESS!

Grand Lodge

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Raymond Lambert wrote:
I advise you to post up front with all builds what your point buy is. This uses a 25 point buy, ilrgal for PFS, thus not worth suggestion for use in such.

This is a legal 20 point PFS array. The point array shown above is after racial modifiers have been added.

Str: 8 (-2) -2 racial
Dex: 18 (17) +2 racial
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 14 (5)
Cha: 12 (2) +2 racial
_____
Total points: 20

Shadow Lodge

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.


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Very click-bait title.

I love it.


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hi Breq

first, love the username

second, I love this build. very nice.

third, I can see how you get 3 natural attacks (songbird starts with one, and you aspect of the beast for the other two (although I think that feat goes online at level 8, which is your first chance to take a slayer talent)) oh, I see, you don't flurry or anything, you just treat all those as secondary, and use iterative punches for your other three. got it.

fourth, so, does an Iroran paladin have to worship Irori? the ring of seven lovely colors doesn't look like it requires Shelyn worship, but those two are compatible, to a point

(So, you devoted yourself to physical perfection in part by polymorphing into a little birdy?)

Is there a way of getting a songbird familiar glued to this build? Because nothing helps a polymorph build like confusing bad guys as to which bird will kill you...

Shadow Lodge

Why can't you flurry of blows, then use your natural attacks at a -5 penalty?


Can you point me where the rules state you add your Dex to CMB for tiny?


Serum wrote:
Why can't you flurry of blows, then use your natural attacks at a -5 penalty?

BEcause he doesn't have flurry of blows.

Scarab Sages

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And because flurry of blows explicitly forbids using natural attacks with a flurry of blows.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Does this work with 15 Point Buy?

Dark Archive

I like this. I have been pondering a small or tiny character build and how to make it viable. About time someone made a build where being ginormous wasn't the answer to everything.

Grand Lodge

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TarkXT wrote:
Can you point me where the rules state you add your Dex to CMB for tiny?

See pg. 198 of the CRB.

Ohako: I have consulted with a couple VCs on the topic and the ruling is that you have to be a worshipper of Irori to play an Iroran paladin, but you don't have to be a worshipper of Desna to use the ring.

As for the familiar idea, personally I would strongly recommend against it. In this build you actually want the enemy to try and hit you so you can counter-attack, so a duplicate would be counter-productive.

Blackblood: This build should be workable with a 15 point buy. Just playing around with things I would recommend the following stat array for a halfling:
Str: 5
Dex: 19
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha:15

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Does this work with 15 Point Buy?

I don't see why not. You don't have to have an 18 dex before racials.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Now, I must build this.


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Looking at trying a version of this with urban barbarian for MOREDEX and claw attacks.


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If you need to use a Kitsune you can go

Fighter: Unarmed Strike, Style
Swash: Finesse
Fighter: Combat Reflexes, Fox Shape
Monk: Redundant UnarmedStrike, Style
Monk: Style, Style

The ring is better but if you want to try this and lack access to the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors then this is an option.

You take a hit to Str but get Dex and Cha as a Kitsune and you end up with the same stats as a Half-Ling.

Sadly you lose access to Piranha Strike until level 7 :(


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For the OP,

I love the idea of being a baddass mocking bird, you'll be more feared than Woody Woodpecker and Chester Chickenhawk combined. Also, Snake Fang is my favorite feat in the world. But I have some problems/comments about your build.

Turning into a song bird gives you +1 Natural Armor, +4 Dex, and +2 Size bonus to AC at the cost of 2 sizes worth of Damage and -2 St. Yes? Plus with your increased Dex comes the potential of 2 extra Attacks of Opportunity/round. Might I suggest a level in Alchemist? You can take a Dex Mutagen. Also +1 Natural AC, also +4 Dex, no size bonus to AC, but no size penalty to damage, either. A -2 Wisdom instead of Strength. You'd also have the option of taking a Strength Mutagen, with a -2 in Intelligence instead of Wisdom. In addition, to make your build work, you are talking about acquiring 2 expensive magic items, whereas I am talking about a 1-level dip. Of course, there is no reason why you can't do both. The size bonuses you get stack with Alchemal Mutagens.

Isn't there some redundancy in your build? As a Mouser, you can enter opponents' squares. As a Tiny creature, you can enter opponents' squares. With the Monkey Shine Feat, you can enter opponents' squares. Are all these ways of entering opponents' squares necessary?

If you were going to drop one, you should drop Monkey Shines, I guess, since at this point, you can't use it. The Monkey Shines Benefit of entering opponents' squares triggers on successful use of Stunning Fist. And as a Kata Master, you don't get Stunning Fist. Perhaps you should Drop Kata Master: As a Swashbuckler, you get Panache anyway. Do you need to double up on Panache? I suppose you could take Stunning Fist as a Feat, but since you already have so many ways of entering opponents' squares, that seems unnecessary. Or drop Kata Master.

You might consider Dropping Master of Many Styles, too. I love Snake Fang, but with your character's high chances of hitting due to Finesse and Tiny Size, you might really do well with Flurry of Blows. One of the reasons why I like to take levels in MoMS Monks is that I like to wear armor. But if you are Polymorphing into a songbird, you aren't wearing armor, anyway. Meanwhile, you have other parts of your build that sort of make Monkey Shine redundant and/or unusable anyway. I haven't crunched the numbers comparing Flurry with Snake Fang, but it's worth looking at.

You might consider the Monastic Legacy Feat, since you are multiclassing so much. Your Unarmed Strike Damage will go up.

You provide a lot of Flanking, but do you have any way to further exploit it with Sneak Attack Damage? A level in Brawler with the Snakebite Striker Archetype, would give you 1d6. A level in Rogue or Ninja would give you another. Sap Adept will increase your Sneak Attack Damage. A level in Cavalier with the Precise Strike Teamwork Feat passed around with the Tactician Class Ability would also do. But if you take a level in Cavalier, you should seriously consider the Paired Opportunist Feat, which lets all your buddies get AoO's whenever you get one. Getting Sneak Attack Damage offers another remedy to defensive small-size builds: low damage, and a lot of enemies ignore tanks. Precision damage, on the other hand, does not scale down with size.

Also, are you sure you need Outflank? You help people get Flanking, but you realize that as a Mouser, you get an ability to play Dirty Tricks? You can use the Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver--cleverly using your Dex instead of your St bonus--to make your opponents Blind, denying them their Dex mods to their AC and securing your Sneak Attack Damage that way. Also, Blinded opponents have other terrible penalties. You might consider Combat Expertise and Improved Dirty Trick in lieu of Stand Still and Outflank.

And not a big deal, but why Pirhanna Strike instead of Power Attack?


Arighty just looking at rough numbers here.

10 + 6 dex + 10 BAB - 2 strength = 24 Base CMD no buffs or size mods.

If you go bird form:

10 + 10 BAB + 8 Dex - 3 Strength - 2 Size = 23 CMD

Okay lets throw on class abilities. Monk adds wisdom as that bonus counts as dodge.

25 CMD

Charisma that counts as dex.

27 CMD

Alrighty. Generously speaking we would have a +4 dex item, and a +2 Cha+Wis item.

31 CMD.

So what are we missing now? Ah the ring.

33 CMD

The Exchange

Fighter (Mutagenic Mauler) or whatever the archetype is called is pretty OP for a one-level dip, and it stacks with any archetype that doesn't replace Armor Training 1.
Unfortunately this doesn't stack with Unarmed Fighter, but there are some other great archetypes, and taking Monkey Style + Shine at level 5 is viable (Monkey Style does you little good until you have Shine, and you could move a later feat to an earlier slot).

Mutagen is outright better than Armor Training, and you gain the ability at level 1 rather than 3. With a one- or two-level dip you're getting it literally for free.


Serum wrote:
Why can't you flurry of blows, then use your natural attacks at a -5 penalty?

Flurry of Blows is a Full Round Action. You can't make Natural Attacks in the same round as Flurry, or any other attacks for that matter. Anyway with his levels in Monk, he wouldn't take the -5, since Monk Unarmed Strikes count as Natural Attacks.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Also, are you sure you need Outflank? You help people get Flanking, but you realize that as a Mouser, you get an ability to play Dirty Tricks? You can use the Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver--cleverly using your Dex instead of your St bonus--to make your opponents Blind, denying them their Dex mods to their AC and securing your Sneak Attack Damage that way. Also, Blinded opponents have other terrible penalties. You might consider Combat Expertise and Improved Dirty Trick in lieu of Stand Still and Outflank.

I think the choice of outflank is a clever one. Since viturally every ally who attacks the same opponent will not only get the benefit of the extra outflank number but they'll benefit from AoO's every time he or they crit. Another feat to grab would be paired opportunist so he can trigger loads more AoO's with each crit.

Grand Lodge

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Scott Wilhelm wrote:

For the OP,

I love the idea of being a baddass mocking bird, you'll be more feared than Woody Woodpecker and Chester Chickenhawk combined. Also, Snake Fang is my favorite feat in the world. But I have some problems/comments about your build.

Turning into a song bird gives you +1 Natural Armor, +4 Dex, and +2 Size bonus to AC at the cost of 2 sizes worth of Damage and -2 St. Yes? Plus with your increased Dex comes the potential of 2 extra Attacks of Opportunity/round. Might I suggest a level in Alchemist? You can take a Dex Mutagen. Also +1 Natural AC, also +4 Dex, no size bonus to AC, but no size penalty to damage, either. A -2 Wisdom instead of Strength. You'd also have the option of taking a Strength Mutagen, with a -2 in Intelligence instead of Wisdom. In addition, to make your build work, you are talking about acquiring 2 expensive magic items, whereas I am talking about a 1-level dip. Of course, there is no reason why you can't do both. The size bonuses you get stack with Alchemal Mutagens.

Isn't there some redundancy in your build? As a Mouser, you can enter opponents' squares. As a Tiny creature, you can enter opponents' squares. With the Monkey Shine Feat, you can enter opponents' squares. Are all these ways of entering opponents' squares necessary?

If you were going to drop one, you should drop Monkey Shines, I guess, since at this point, you can't use it. The Monkey Shines Benefit of entering opponents' squares triggers on successful use of Stunning Fist. And as a Kata Master, you don't get Stunning Fist. Perhaps you should Drop Kata Master: As a Swashbuckler, you get Panache anyway. Do you need to double up on Panache? I suppose you could take Stunning Fist as a Feat, but since you already have so many ways of entering opponents' squares, that seems unnecessary. Or drop Kata Master.

You might consider Dropping Master of Many Styles, too. I love Snake Fang, but with your character's high chances of hitting due to Finesse and Tiny Size, you might really do well...

So a couple of points:

1. Monkey Shine is an amazing feat with this build. The key benefit that you are forgetting is that it grants you a +4 dodge bonus to AC and a +4 bonus to hit while you are in an enemy square.

2. Mouser grants you the flanking from an adjacent ally as well as giving the enemy a -4 on all attack rolls against anyone but you while you are in its square. Additionally it gives you an AOO even if it 5 ft steps away from you.

3. Kata master doesn't trade away anything really worthwhile and it gives you back the dodging panache deed lost from taking mouser.

4. Power attack requires a minimum strength.

Tark:
The additional CMD comes from items, and situationally from Monkeyshine if you are in an an enemy square.
+1 luck bonus from Jingasa
+1 deflection bonus from ring of 7 lovely colors
+1 insight bonus from ioun stone.
+4 dodge bonus if in enemy square.


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Threads like this make me want to play Savage Worlds. :P

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