| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Man, I was really enjoying this advice thread for a while.. then someone apparently inexplicably moved it into the rules forum.
I wonder why that happened, since it was a thread about advice for a certain build.
Oh wait. It didn't.
Can you folks take this argument to the rules board and continue there. I know others have asked the same, and that you're likely to ignore my request. But I'm at least going to start flagging your responses and likely get this otherwise awesome thread locked if you keep it up.
Seriously, just start another thread in the appropriate forum.
<3
Skaldi
I'm shocked that this thread has over 550 posts and no one has brought up encumbrance rules.
When under a medium encumbrance max DEX bonus +3
Halfling (small) str of 6, light encumbrance <15 lbs
Clothing 1 lb
haversack 5 lbs
Wayfinder 1 lb
Cloak resistance +X 1 lb
Headband of _________ 1 lb
Belt of DEX +X 1 lb
Most of the other wondrous item slots can be had at nil or 1 lb
While you CAN stay under that encumbrance, I would wager most players aren't because they have enough itmes they're wearing to be encumbered. As a PFS GM, that would be one of my first questions.
How is the character over encumbrance? All his gear merges with him when he polymorphs. That stuff is all part of his body, it doesn't count against his weight unless it specifically says that it does, if he puts it on after he shapes or it retains it's shape regardless of whether he shapes or not.
How is the character over encumbrance? All his gear merges with him when he polymorphs. That stuff is all part of his body, it doesn't count against his weight unless it specifically says that it does, if he puts it on after he shapes or it retains it's shape regardless of whether he shapes or not.
When you polymorph, you stay at the encumbrance level you were at previously. Which is good for our songbird, because a Str 4 tiny creature would be encumbered at 6.5 lbs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How is the character over encumbrance? All his gear merges with him when he polymorphs. That stuff is all part of his body, it doesn't count against his weight unless it specifically says that it does, if he puts it on after he shapes or it retains it's shape regardless of whether he shapes or not.When you polymorph, you stay at the encumbrance level you were at previously. Which is good for our songbird, because a Str 4 tiny creature would be encumbered at 6.5 lbs.
He still only needs to put the cloak head band and belt on a halfling and not be encumbered, not even on a bird.
He can probably hand someone else the haversack.
Seems to me that people are spending a lot of effort to acquire attacks in their tiny form. So you end up with a dip here for mouser and a dip there for claws and a dip over here for monkey style. I am not really a fan of the triple dip build. Why not just play a small race (My choice would be a grippli if you have the boon), take a 1 lvl dip in mouser, and 19 lvls of unchained vexing dodger. You can pick up reduce person as an SLA that lasts for 19 minutes and you can use it 9 times a day. That's more than enough tiny time. With vexing dodger I am not even sure you need tiny time. To me climbing on the enemy entails sharing the same square, which limb-climber lets us do on anything 1 step larger and without provoking an AoO. We get dex to attack and damage and we can just twf while standing on the shoulders of giants (as long as you have slippers of spider climb to allow climbing without free hands). Since we are flanking with everyone, we get to apply our sneak attack most of the time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you are playing to 20th level maybe. But PFS and many home games don't see levels past 12. Hell, I've seen some posters say they don't hit 10th ever...
That means you career is less than 2/3's of the 20 level "cap".
It also means squeezing every possible advantage out of possible combinations to get your character "online" and reasonably functional before 6th level. Because at that point even single class builds are working to their potential. The faster you can get you "schtick" working, the sooner you can enjoy it. Because you might not have the option to do so otherwise.
Seems to me that people are spending a lot of effort to acquire attacks in their tiny form. So you end up with a dip here for mouser and a dip there for claws and a dip over here for monkey style. I am not really a fan of the triple dip build. Why not just play a small race (My choice would be a grippli if you have the boon), take a 1 lvl dip in mouser, and 19 lvls of unchained vexing dodger. You can pick up reduce person as an SLA that lasts for 19 minutes and you can use it 9 times a day. That's more than enough tiny time. With vexing dodger I am not even sure you need tiny time. To me climbing on the enemy entails sharing the same square, which limb-climber lets us do on anything 1 step larger and without provoking an AoO. We get dex to attack and damage and we can just twf while standing on the shoulders of giants (as long as you have slippers of spider climb to allow climbing without free hands). Since we are flanking with everyone, we get to apply our sneak attack most of the time.
Because the short duration on reduce person means you're casting it in combat , and if combats last 2-4 rounds you're losing a pretty big chunk of your actions by activating it.
Short duration? It lasts as long as fox form or the tiny bird; 1 minute per caster lvl. In high tier PFS that would mean that a mouser 1 / vexing dodger 10 would have 5 castings of reduce person that last for 10 min each. That's more tiny time than the tiny bird and enough castings per day to cover the typical scenario. The only difference is it is a full rnd action vs a standard to activate. You could always have potions of reduce person on hand for the combats that you can't get a prep rnd for.
If you are playing to 20th level maybe. But PFS and many home games don't see levels past 12. Hell, I've seen some posters say they don't hit 10th ever...
That means you career is less than 2/3's of the 20 level "cap".
It also means squeezing every possible advantage out of possible combinations to get your character "online" and reasonably functional before 6th level. Because at that point even single class builds are working to their potential. The faster you can get you "schtick" working, the sooner you can enjoy it. Because you might not have the option to do so otherwise.
Not sure if your replying to me or not.
One of the reasons that I like to keep simple is to make the concept work at low lvls. A single lvl of unchained vexing dodger lets you start the concept. Just climb up on everything larger than you and stab them. Second lvl is mouser. Now you get sneak attack on all your stabbings. Now depending upon the GM you have and their ruling on limb-climber and sharing squares you may not even need to be tiny. However, if you want more of a buff or your GM rules that limb-climber is still just adjacent rather than sharing, then throw in reduce person potions until you can get to 6lvls of rogue and have major magic. Alternatively, just roll with the potions and use your talents for other things. Lots of melee builds chug before / during first rnd of combat.
So the current "start up time" for this build is lvl 2. At lvl 2 you have everything you need. More levels just allows you to do it better.
And that is a mediocre build. Because more levels of other things can out perform it.
There is definitely something to be said for keeping things simple. There is also something to be said for making your build as effective as possible.
Short duration? It lasts as long as fox form or the tiny bird; 1 minute per caster lvl.
In high tier PFS that would mean that a mouser 1 / vexing dodger 10 would have 5 castings of reduce person that last for 10 min each.
Yes but how about the rest of your career?
That's more tiny time than the tiny bird and enough castings per day to cover the typical scenario. The only difference is it is a full rnd action vs a standard to activate. You could always have potions of reduce person on hand for the combats that you can't get a prep rnd for.
The ring lasts 10 minutes 7 times per day , that will get you through the dungeon.
The kitsune fox shape is at will: you can remain a four legged fluffy pirhana all day by occasionally spending a standard action (or a move if you trade out your dancing lights for fast shifter). (Grr considers his bipedal form beneath him and refuses to assume it unless absolutely necessary)
edit: actually its even better than that. Fox shape alters your shapechange ability, which lets you remain in the form indefinitely. I don't even need to hand wave him being in the right shape when he wakes up.
The biggest problems with the vexing dodger is that it doesn't let you retain your dex bonus to ac while climbing the thing. You need the unchained skill unlock at level 5 or better yet, investments in spiderclimbing scrolls/slippers.
For my kitsune Foxform fighter, the mousers ability to flank with anyone has adjacent to the foes has gotten me more full round sneak attacks in one level than my Tengu ninja with combat expertise and gang up had for most of jade regent.
So how much of a hit does this build take now that MoMS can no longer get the downstream feats of styles as a bonus feat. To me it looks like there is no longer space to get monkey shine or snake fang.
The general shtick is still there post Ultimate Combat errata, but I think that the build may need a rebuild.
I haven't followed this thread very closely, but I was wondering if the changes to Feral Combat Training make any difference to this build?
They could get monkey STYLE not shine.
Yep, welcome to the hall of small and smaller martial characters. Let someone know if you're bringing in any normal sized comparable combat options so they can be taken from you.
If small size allowed early entry into a few martial feats, I probably wouldn't mind the other early entry blockades so much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Errata. Always taking out the cool builds.
I haven't followed this thread very closely, but I was wondering if the changes to Feral Combat Training make any difference to this build?
Thanks.
I think you should be able to push those monk levels back and pick them up near the end of the progression, but you need two more feats in there as well. The character's effect won't come online till much later, which to me always feels bad when building a character.
|
Fortunately my weird caster variant managed to avoid the nerf bat - it actually makes life easier since I no longer need to dip monk levels or take nearly so many feats. Fiend Totem Unchained Barbarian 2/Mouser 1/Draconic Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple. The DD str bonuses are irrelevant (unless you get stuck fighting full sized due to DR), but you get 3/4 BAB and casting, the rest is fluff. You can also go DD 4/EK for a higher level variant (but lose the cool Blindsense).
Most spells can't be cast in fox form, but you can prebuff yourself. Also, neither Blur nor Displacement have somatic components, so as long as you have the ring to speak when polymorphed you can cast them. With enough time you can use Shield, Mage Armor, Reduce Person to be a mouse sized Diminutive foxie, Blur or Displacement, and Mirror Image, all while throwing out 4 full BAB attacks per round, moving at 50 feet, and providing your allies an AC boost. Use the freed up feats for Reflexes, Stand Still, and Bodyguard to keep the enemy ineffectively swinging at your images. That said, you probably need to spend a feat or two on Extra Rage, 8 rounds is not much (you also want to pump Cha for more rounds of claws, but can add/drop them as a free action so you can save them during movement). Overall not quite as offensively powerful as the now dead original version, but the Dragon Fox has more utility.
That, and it is just hilarious to watch a bundle of mouse sized foxies fly 50 feet through the air (with all the bonuses you have in excess of +50 acrobatics to jump) and then start mauling :)