The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)


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Shadow Lodge

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Well here is a pfs legal build of this at retirement

The bird:
The Bird 12
Halfling cavalier (daring champion) 1/fighter (unarmed fighter) 1/monk (kata master, master of many styles) 2 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Combat, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 53, 56, 90, 104, 125, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 32, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 48, 59)
LG Tiny humanoid (halfling)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +14
Aura aura of excellence, aura of law
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 23, flat-footed 14 (+10 Dex, +2 insight, +1 natural, +2 size, -1 untyped penalty)
hp 86 (12 HD; 2d8+10d10+12)
Fort +20, Ref +22, Will +15; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 10 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee unarmed strike +21/+16/+11 (1d4+24) or
. . 2 claws +21 (1d2+24), 2 talons +21 (1d4+24)
Space 2.5 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks challenge 1/day (+1 damage, allies gain +1 to hit), deeds (derring-do, derring-do, dodging panache, menacing swordplay, opportune parry and riposte, opportune parry and riposte), greater tactician 1/day (Monkey Style or Outflank, 3 rds), panache (2), personal trial, sneak attack +1d6, studied target +1 (1st, move action)
Paladin (Iroran Paladin) Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +3)
. . 1st—bless
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 4, Dex 27, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +11; CMB +17; CMD 25
Feats Aspect of the Beast[APG], Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lunge, Monkey Shine[UC], Monkey Style[UC], Outflank[APG], Piranha Strike, Risky Striker[ARG], Snake Fang[UC], Snake Style[UC], Stand Still, Weapon Finesse
Traits blade of the society, devotee of the green
Skills Acrobatics +25 (+17 to jump), Bluff +3, Climb -1, Fly +12, Perception +14, Sense Motive +18, Survival +3 (+4 to provide food and water for allies or to protect allies from harsh weather); Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Climb, +2 Perception, dragon's skills
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ champion's finesse, combat style (natural weapon), confident defense +2, deed: underfoot assault, fuse style, ki pool (5 points magic, magic), lay on hands 4/day (2d6), mercy (sickened), mount, order of the dragon, panache, sense perfection, slayer talent (ranger combat style), swashbuckler finesse, track +1
Other Gear agile amulet of mighty fists, ring of seven lovely colors, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura of Excellence (Su) Immune to effects that force rerolls. Allies within 10' can roll 2 or 3 dice when forced to reroll.
Aura of Law (Su) The paladin has an Aura of Law with power equal to her class level.
Blade of the Society You gain a +1 trait bonus to damage rolls from sneak attacks.
Champion's Finesse At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also coun
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deed: Underfoot Assault (Ex) Use 1 panache as imm act when adj foe misses, enter foe's space for bonuses.
Dragon's +1 (1/day) (Ex) +1 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, allies gain +1 to hit the target of your challenge.
Dragon's Skills +1 (Ex) +1 to Survival checks for allies.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Flight (60 feet, Average) You can fly!
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Greater Tactician (Monkey Style or Outflank, 3 rds, 1/day) (Ex) Grant the use of your teamwork feats to all allies in 30 ft.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Pool (5/day) (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Charisma modifier.
Lay on Hands (2d6 hit points, 4/day) (Su) As a standard action (swift on self), touch channels positive energy and applies mercies.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Mercy (Sickened) (Su) When you use your lay on hands ability, it also removes the sickened condition.
Monkey Shine After successful Stunning Fist, you may enter an adjacent square
Monkey Style Add Wisdom bonus on Acrobatics checks, and take no penalty for attacking while prone
Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Panache (Ex) Gain panache, use unarmed/monk wep with certain deeds, and can spend ki for deeds.
Personal Trial (2/day) (Su) +2 insight bonus to hit, damage, saves, and AC vs. target.
Piranha Strike -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Risky Strike -1/+6 Subtract from your AC to add to damage vs foes 2 sizes larger.
Sense Perfection (Su) At will, you can detect if a creature has a ki pool.
Snake Fang If opponent misses you, make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Sneak Attack +1d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Stand Still When taking an AoO, you can make a combat maneuver check to end opponent's movement instead of attacking.
Studied Target +1 (move action, 1 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Move action, gain +1 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having
Track +1 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

This is with everything except for the monk Ac bonus activated.

Lantern Lodge

catman123456 wrote:

Well here is a pfs legal build of this at retirement

** spoiler omitted **...

Um, you're missing 8 levels out of your build: I see 1 level of Cav, 1 level of unarmed fighter, and 2 levels of monk.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

@BigNorseWolf (the "Reply" button seems to be glitchy):

My interpretation is the literal interpretation of the text. People have been imagining a limitation that is not there. Sticking your head in the sand and calling the rules of the game utter nonsense does not change the facts, and you have not begun to argue against my point.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
So if it happens sometimes it must always happen? That's utter nonsense.

I did not say it always happens. You have not demonstrated that that is anything like a reasonable interpretation of anything I said. Come up with a real argument supported by real evidence next time.

Look, it is still the Monks' Unarmed Strikes that are being changed, in more ways than one. For instance, they are evidently being changed so that using them does not interfere so much with the normal action of your other attacks.

I'm just going by the rules as written. A Monk Unarmed Strike counts as a natural weapon for the purposes of effects that improve natural weapons. That's what the rule says.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
yours... fraught with problems.
Well, what problems? Show us the problems.

Well for one, if you are going to count unarmed strikes as natural attacks for purposes of not demoting other natural attacks, then you only get one unarmed strike and loose access to iterative attacks, because that's the entire intent.

If you want to exceed your number of iterative attacks with *full attack bonus* natural attacks, that's deliberate attempt to break game balance. Good luck getting that through any PFS table. If you want to use primary natural attacks, then get a build with claws, a bite, a slam, gore, etc.

Silver Crusade

What do you do when the enemy spellcaster uses Waves of Exhaustion?

Scarab Sages

Hrothdane wrote:
What do you do when the enemy spellcaster uses Waves of Exhaustion?

Exhaustion applies a -6 penalty to STR and Dex, but it is not ability damage. A penalty will not reduce a score below one. Being at STR 1 doesn't really hurt the build, but the -6 to dex means a -3 to AC, hit, and damage. All in all, being exhausted is less restricting for this build than a STR-based Barbarian.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

Well other than Aspect of the Beast not working while transformed it should work fine.

Silver Crusade

Imbicatus wrote:
Hrothdane wrote:
What do you do when the enemy spellcaster uses Waves of Exhaustion?
Exhaustion applies a -6 penalty to STR and Dex, but it is not ability damage. A penalty will not reduce a score below one. Being at STR 1 doesn't really hurt the build, but the -6 to dex means a -3 to AC, hit, and damage. All in all, being exhausted is less restricting for this build than a STR-based Barbarian.

Can you point me to where it says that is a characteristic of all stat penalties? I would like to know for sure for future reference, since it's a common high level spell and it's not unheard of to see characters with 6 or lower strength. Spells like ray of enfeeblement mention they cant be taken below one, but I'm not seeing a general reference that applies to ALL ability penalty effects.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

From pg 555 of Core Rulebook

"Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability
penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect,
these penalties function just like ability damage, but they
cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence,
penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

@BigNorseWolf (the "Reply" button seems to be glitchy):

My interpretation is the literal interpretation of the text.

No. It is not. It is something you area completely reading into the text. Its not there. Its not hinted, its not implied, you're making it up and as usual with that sort of reading, "just happen" to arrive at the conclusion that increases the power level.

How many natural attacks can the monk make?

Why does the monk attack progression go EXACTLY like a manufactured weapon ?

Why do developer examples of mixing natural attacks and monk strikes work as if the monk strikes were manufactured weapons?

Quote:
People have been imagining a limitation that is not there.

Support your interpretation without insulting everyone else. The build is wonky enough without trying to bring in worse than questionable rules interpretations. You're saying that no one else but you has had the intelligence to see this rule here, including the people that wrote the rules? You're going to need an iron clad case for that and you don't even have smoke.

Quote:
Sticking your head in the sand and calling the rules of the game utter nonsense does not change the facts, and you have not begun to argue against my point.

You cannot accuse anyone else of hiding their head in the sand when you ignore counter arguments without answering them.

AGAIN, The monks unarmed strike is not what's being changed by the status as unarmed strike or manufactured weapon: the monks natural attacks are. Nothing there allows the monks unarmed strikes, which use the rules for manufactured weapons, to keep his natural attacks from becomming secondary. Becoming secondary is something that happens to the natural attacks, they're not remotely covered by anything that applies to the monk unarmed strike.

The presence of natural attacks is also not an effect on the monks strike: it is not magic weapon, magic fang, a feat.

Quote:
Look, it is still the Monks' Unarmed Strikes that are being changed, in more ways than one. For instance, they are evidently being changed so that using them does not interfere so much with the normal action of your other attacks.

Circular. You're assuming that your interpretation is the right one to say that something else is the change. You've also gotten an effect on the monks strikes confused with the effects the monks strikes have on something else. They're not the same thing, in fact they're opposites.

Quote:
I'm just going by the rules as written.

You're just making stuff up, like every other player that uses raw as a veneer for rules lawyering a power advantage.

Shadow Lodge

Genuine wrote:
catman123456 wrote:

Well here is a pfs legal build of this at retirement

** spoiler omitted **...

Um, you're missing 8 levels out of your build: I see 1 level of Cav, 1 level of unarmed fighter, and 2 levels of monk.

Huh hero lab cut out 8 lv in the output


Darkbridger wrote:

Minor quibble: You list 7th level as gaining the Ranger Combat Style from Slayer... shouldn't that be 8th level (2nd Slayer level)?

As a DM, I don't think I would allow Aspect of the Beast to work with this, but that argument has already been raised.

EDIT: To clarify why I would not allow this, not that it matters over much as the build is still amusing and fun without the claws...

Polymorph:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

Aspect of the Beast:
Claws of the Beast (Ex): You grow a pair of claws. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage (1d3 if you are Small).

My question that I always have with this is the kitsune. If they take fox shape at level 3, and then dip into ranger to get beast aspect, can they have the claws grow on the fox form? Kitsune are humanoid (shapechanger). They naturally have more than one primary form. Even if the claws can only grow in one form, what determines what form they grow in?


ShadowDax wrote:
First of all, I would like to thank you all for a cordial discussion on the issue. I do not see this board as hostile or heated in any way. On the other hand, if I have been rude in any way because of the way I put things. Sorry, this is not my intention.

My Dear ShadowDax, I do so wish that what you said about this being a civil board--not hostile in any way--were true. This thread kept a civil tone for a while, and it was beautiful for the short, short time it lasted.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Support your interpretation without insulting everyone else.

Excuse me, but you do not get to tell anyone not to insult anyone while you insult me at will.

All I did to begin this was to state my position and support it with a quotation from the rules. You are the one staring off with nasty tone, calling my ideas nonsense and accusing me of making stuff up.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
That's utter nonsense.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
worse than questionable
BigNorseWolf wrote:
You're just making stuff up,

Your last post, post #209 on this thread, does have some cogent counter arguments which I intend to answer, but mostly, you last 2 posts have been bellicose and insulting denials. Your post before your last one devoid of either logical or factual evidence.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
you ignore counter arguments without answering them.

No sir, I am not ignoring counter arguments, but I will not let you bully me into silence, no matter how big a crowd you gather to try to shout me down.

You are the one setting the tone here. I'll stop being insulting when you stop. I might stop sooner: rude behavior does not come naturally to me. But if you want a civil tone, try using one yourself.

@Purple Dragon Knight, I told you so

my post on this thread~post #117 wrote:
That being said, my position is intensely disliked by a lot contributors to these forums, and you can expect this thread soon to be spammed by a crowd of online bullies who will attempt to derail the thread with no regard to honest nor civil discourse. It has happened before, and this wouldn't be the first thread that the moderators will have shut down because of their poor behavior regarding this very topic.

It took longer than I thought.

Silver Crusade

Taenia wrote:

From pg 555 of Core Rulebook

"Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability
penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect,
these penalties function just like ability damage, but they
cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence,
penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."

Danke. This information will be highly useful.


Hrothdane wrote:
What do you do when the enemy spellcaster uses Waves of Exhaustion?

Waves of Exhaustion is a level 7 spell! When the OP is facing a level 14 opponent, hopefully he will be near level 14 himself, and will be equipped with appropriate countermeasures: Armor with Spell Resistance, a Scarab of Protection, some kind of Anti Magic Shell dweomer.

Aren't there some fairly inexpensive ways to alleviate exhaustion? A low level spell, a Paladin mercy, something like that?

I would like to answer a more general question than the one you specifically asked, Hrothdane: what kind of defense does the OP's build have against spellcasters?

To that I will point out that that the OP's build has a high armor class, including a high Touch AC vs. Ray Spells. The OP's build has Evasion, I'm pretty sure, and although I haven't looked closely for this, the OP multiclasses extensively, and extensive multiclassing tends to lead to very high saving throws.

Grand Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Hrothdane wrote:
What do you do when the enemy spellcaster uses Waves of Exhaustion?

Waves of Exhaustion is a level 7 spell! When the OP is facing a level 14 opponent, hopefully he will be near level 14 himself, and will be equipped with appropriate countermeasures: Armor with Spell Resistance, a Scarab of Protection, some kind of Anti Magic Shell dweomer.

Aren't there some fairly inexpensive ways to alleviate exhaustion? A low level spell, a Paladin mercy, something like that?

I would like to answer a more general question than the one you specifically asked, Hrothdane: what kind of defense does the OP's build have against spellcasters?

To that I will point out that that the OP's build has a high armor class, including a high Touch AC vs. Ray Spells. The OP's build has Evasion, I'm pretty sure, and although I haven't looked closely for this, the OP multiclasses extensively, and extensive multiclassing tends to lead to very high saving throws.

In my experience this build tends to work quite well against spell casters. With regards to what saving throws can be expected:

These are the saving throws on the kitten variant level 12 character I have with this build:
Base without items:
Fort: +16
Ref: +20
Will: +13

By level 12 I invested in the following items:
+4 cloak of resistance
+4 headband of Cha
+4 belt of dex
cracked ion stone granting +1 to saves.

So the saving throws at level 12 are:
Fort: +23
Ref: +29 w/ evasion
Will: +20

Scarab Sages

Waves of Exhaustion is no save. However, as I pointed out earlier, exhaustion doesn't really hurt the bird, only giving a -3 to hit, damage, ac, initiative, and reflex.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber
Godwyn wrote:
My question that I always have with this is the kitsune. If they take fox shape at level 3, and then dip into ranger to get beast aspect, can they have the claws grow on the fox form? Kitsune are humanoid (shapechanger). They naturally have more than one primary form. Even if the claws can only grow in one form, what determines what form they grow in?

No you can't. The problem is the ability causes you to grow claws in your normal form. These become (Ex) Claws that are natural attacks possessed by your normal form and therefore the application of any polymorph process replaces them with the natural attacks of the form assumed.

You could reasonably talk to a GM about a house rule, but by RAW it doesn't work.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


All I did to begin this was to state my position and support it with a quotation from the rules.

The rules say x

You say Y.

Saying that the rules say y is not an argument for your position. It is a declaration that your position is the rules.

Quote:
Your last post, post #209 on this thread, does have some cogent counter arguments which I intend to answer, but mostly, you last 2 posts have been bellicose and insulting denials.

Because all you've offered is a bellicose assertions, not an argument.

Quote:
Your post before your last one devoid of either logical or factual evidence.

I copy pasted my point from one to the other.

my post on this thread~post #117 wrote:
That being said, my position is intensely disliked by a lot contributors to these forums, and you can expect this thread soon to be spammed by a crowd of online
...

Then why try to use an advice thread for your soap box? You have to know that your interpretation is .. i'll be generous and say a gray area. You do not build a character concept around gray areas in the rules.

Grand Lodge

Taenia wrote:
Godwyn wrote:
My question that I always have with this is the kitsune. If they take fox shape at level 3, and then dip into ranger to get beast aspect, can they have the claws grow on the fox form? Kitsune are humanoid (shapechanger). They naturally have more than one primary form. Even if the claws can only grow in one form, what determines what form they grow in?

No you can't. The problem is the ability causes you to grow claws in your normal form. These become (Ex) Claws that are natural attacks possessed by your normal form and therefore the application of any polymorph process replaces them with the natural attacks of the form assumed.

You could reasonably talk to a GM about a house rule, but by RAW it doesn't work.

After taking a deeper look at the rules, I agree with Taenia on this point. It's going to take me a while to figure out a workaround given alignment restriction issues which make going Urban barbarian impossible.

One thought is to go kitsune and then spend a lot of money on a wand of Monstrous Extremities in order to get the extra attacks.

Scarab Sages

I disagree that it's RAW that you lose the claws granted by Aspect of the Beast when polymorphed. Polymorph effects remove natural weapons that are dependent on your original form. The source of the claws granted by the feat is not your original form, but is the feat. The feat functions equally well for an awakened fox with druid levels as it does for a human druid.

Furthermore, the requirements for the feat are to either be a druid with wildshape, or a lycanthrope, both if which change forms all the time. If you are a druid and have the feat, and become an ex-druid, you no longer would have wild shape, and lose the claws because you no longer met the requirements for the feat.

The feat is the source of the claws, not your original form, and you retain them regardless of polymorph effects.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

I recommend getting 3 levels of Sacred Fist Warpriest rather than Slayer. Get the Fates Favored Trait as one of your starting options. You will only lose 1 BAB and slayer tricks but gain Flurry plus Fervor and Blessings.

Normally round one you go bird, with warpriest you can as a swift drop a divine favor (4/day with your stats at level 3) for a +3 luck bonus to hit/dmg (+2 from Caster level, +1 from Trait).

Now flurry for 3 attacks. You don't get you natural but you will still get iterative.

At level 13 (rather than 12) when you get your 3rd iterative you can switch to non flurry plus bite or just flurry. Keep in mind at level 11 in your build (w/Slayer or Warpriest) you have a Ki pool which can be used to augment flurry.

You could also drop the Iroran paladin and replace with Urban Barbarian, removing the alignment issue. You lose 4 to AC and Saves (from Cha + +4 headband) but gain Controlled Rage (+4 dex) and Rage Powers including Claws and Superstition which can make up for some of the Saving throw loss. Make it an Urban Savage barbarian and you can add another point of AC.

Overall you lose a little bit of AC and Saves (esp the extra 4 Will from paladin) but gain a little more to hit and damage when raging and my favorite ability for a high dex character, Uncanny Dodge.

Aspect of the Beast grants claws to your original form. At that point it falls under the rules for natural attacks. I looked at this briefly when I was building my original Bat Druid but the wording made it unfeasible.

I respectfully disagree Imbicatus, I don't think it works by RAW. I think the class requirement are not meant to allow say a Werewolf to grow claws in wolf form but rather their shapeshifting nature allows them to have claws in their original form.


Imbicatus wrote:

I disagree that it's RAW that you lose the claws granted by Aspect of the Beast when polymorphed. Polymorph effects remove natural weapons that are dependent on your original form. The source of the claws granted by the feat is not your original form, but is the feat. The feat functions equally well for an awakened fox with druid levels as it does for a human druid.

Furthermore, the requirements for the feat are to either be a druid with wildshape, or a lycanthrope, both if which change forms all the time. If you are a druid and have the feat, and become an ex-druid, you no longer would have wild shape, and lose the claws because you no longer met the requirements for the feat.

The feat is the source of the claws, not your original form, and you retain them regardless of polymorph effects.

I am not sure, but you may be getting hung up on the statement "original form"

In the context of polymorph effects, there are 2 forms. The form you are before the spell is cast (i.e. original form) and the form you take after the spell (polymorphed form for lack of a better term).

You are introducing a third form that I would think is irrelevant to the spell, your form before you obtained the feat. If I understand you correctly, you are stating there are:
1. your original form
2. Altered form from aspect of the beast that grants claws
3. further altered form by any polymorph effect.

Please correct me if I misunderstood that.

If you are drawing the line that your original form is what you were before the feat, than why stop there? your original form could be child, or infant.

Scarab Sages

Let's really look at Aspect of the Beast

Aspect of the Beast wrote:


Whether by magic or a curse of your blood, some part of you is more beast than man.

Prerequisite: wild shape class feature, see Special.
Benefit: Your bestial nature manifests itself in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you choose the feat, and then you cannot change it.
Night Senses (Ex): If your base race has normal vision, you gain low-light vision. If your base race has low-light vision, you gain darkvision out to a range of 30 feet. If your base race has darkvision, the range of your darkvision increases by 30 feet.
Claws of the Beast (Ex): You grow a pair of claws. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage (1d3 if you are Small).
Predator's Leap (Ex): You can make a running jump without needing to run 10 feet before you jump.
Wild Instinct (Ex): You gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks.
Special: A character that has contracted lycanthropy can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites. A ranger who selects the natural weapon combat style can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites (even if he does not select Aspect of the Beast as a bonus feat).

The feat simply states you grow a pair of claws. The feat is is the source of the claws. You can grow them regardless of what form you are in. Yes the claws are EX. That just means they can't be dispelled.

If you selected Wild Instinct would you no longer be able to gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks while polymorphed? How about Predator's Leap?

The feat is designed for shapeshifters, and the feat is the source of the claws, just as the draconic bloodline would be the source of a sorcerer's claws if they were under Alter Self in the form of a gnome.


wand of Monstrous Extremities

0.0


Imbicatus wrote:


If you selected Wild Instinct would you no longer be able to gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks while polymorphed? How about Predator's Leap?

I would think you no longer gain any of the benefits, regardless of what you chose when taking the feat.

When you take the feat it seems to do one of the following:
1. Changes you physically to be better at something (jumping, initiative, combat, vision...)
2. Allows you to take advantage of abnormalities (more beast than man) that were always present, but not realized/taken advantage of.

Regardless of which it is, the form that you are changes due to the polymorph so you no longer get those benefits.

That is my interpretation at least.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Because all you've offered is a bellicose assertions, not an argument.

Waitaminute.

Are you saying that I directed insulting remarks at you before you directed insulting remarks at me? For my part in answering your arguments I see my first post as happening about 20 hours ago on this thread, post number 188, I think.

I was just rereading my post, and I truly don't understand how I could have given offense. I truly believe I did nothing worse than state my position and support it with a quotation from the rules.

Upon careful reflection, I still do not know how that post of mine gave offense. If I gave offense in that post, or some earlier one, I did so in error, and I apologize.

I would like to hear you explain how I gave offense on my post of about 20 hours ago or earlier. (I already know how I gave offense on later posts.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Imbicatus wrote:

Let's really look at Aspect of the Beast

Aspect of the Beast wrote:


Whether by magic or a curse of your blood, some part of you is more beast than man.

Prerequisite: wild shape class feature, see Special.
Benefit: Your bestial nature manifests itself in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you choose the feat, and then you cannot change it.
Night Senses (Ex): If your base race has normal vision, you gain low-light vision. If your base race has low-light vision, you gain darkvision out to a range of 30 feet. If your base race has darkvision, the range of your darkvision increases by 30 feet.
Claws of the Beast (Ex): You grow a pair of claws. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage (1d3 if you are Small).
Predator's Leap (Ex): You can make a running jump without needing to run 10 feet before you jump.
Wild Instinct (Ex): You gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks.
Special: A character that has contracted lycanthropy can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites. A ranger who selects the natural weapon combat style can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites (even if he does not select Aspect of the Beast as a bonus feat).

The feat simply states you grow a pair of claws. The feat is is the source of the claws. You can grow them regardless of what form you are in. Yes the claws are EX. That just means they can't be dispelled.

If you selected Wild Instinct would you no longer be able to gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks while polymorphed? How about Predator's Leap?

The feat is designed for shapeshifters, and the feat is the source of the claws, just as the draconic bloodline would be the source of a sorcerer's claws if they were under Alter Self in the form of a gnome.

My post had three points: 1) It is an Ex ability. 2) They *are* tied to your form when you gain the feat. If you are arguing that you can grow claws at will, then I would say you are wrong. They grow once, when you get the feat, and you then have them *as a halfling*. Polymorph effects specifically call out Ex abilities and base form for a reason. 3) Lastly, but most important, the claws are a *natural attack* which again, are overridden explicitly by the polymorphed form. And no, a Druid with this feat would *not* retain the claws while shape shifted. A Shifter Ranger would not retain them if he was polymorphed into a bird either. The purpose of the feat is to allow some of your bestial nature to trickle into a non-bestial form, not the other way around.

To your other points, I would (and have) argued that almost all Ex abilities are lost during a polymorph... as long as they are tied to your original form. Claiming they are tied to a feat is just a sort of meta-gaming to try and get around the polymorph rules. The Druid is nasty enough to be honest without these sort of gymnastics.


Imbicatus wrote:

Let's really look at Aspect of the Beast

Aspect of the Beast wrote:


Whether by magic or a curse of your blood, some part of you is more beast than man.

Prerequisite: wild shape class feature, see Special.
Benefit: Your bestial nature manifests itself in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you choose the feat, and then you cannot change it.
Night Senses (Ex): If your base race has normal vision, you gain low-light vision. If your base race has low-light vision, you gain darkvision out to a range of 30 feet. If your base race has darkvision, the range of your darkvision increases by 30 feet.
Claws of the Beast (Ex): You grow a pair of claws. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage (1d3 if you are Small).
Predator's Leap (Ex): You can make a running jump without needing to run 10 feet before you jump.
Wild Instinct (Ex): You gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks.
Special: A character that has contracted lycanthropy can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites. A ranger who selects the natural weapon combat style can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites (even if he does not select Aspect of the Beast as a bonus feat).

The feat simply states you grow a pair of claws. The feat is is the source of the claws. You can grow them regardless of what form you are in. Yes the claws are EX. That just means they can't be dispelled.

If you selected Wild Instinct would you no longer be able to gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks while polymorphed? How about Predator's Leap?

The feat is designed for shapeshifters, and the feat is the source of the claws, just as the draconic bloodline would be the source of a sorcerer's claws if they were under Alter Self in the form of a gnome.

Imbicatus, I don't think those Aspect-of-the-Beast-claws are things you summon upon command like the Sorcerer's Bloodline Power (I don't mean Command as in Command Word, like the Standard Action for activating magic items.) With Aspect of the Beast, I think your character becomes someone with Claws like a Tengu or Tiefling might. In other words, I think that what the Aspect of the Beast Feat does is make your true form a Clawed one.

If that is the case, then Polymorphing into some other shape changes your form, and if your new shape is not also one with Claws, you don't have your claws anymore. You would lose your Claws in much the same way a Half Orc with the Keen Scent or Razortusk feats might lose those abiities while in certain forms.

Since the Claws ability like that of the Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline ability is a magic ability that manifests itself for a number of rounds/day as a Free Action, you would indeed be able to be a Clawed fox or raven or whatever, since the Sorcerer ability is a magic thing, not a natural thing. And it doesn't say it's a Polymorph thing, either, so there is no reason to think it wouldn't stack with a Polymorph. Taking some levels in Sorcerer is an intriguing variant of the OP's build. The OP calls for gaining Panache, which is Charisma-based, and Sorcerers are Charisma-based, too. The OP calls for the character being a Halfling, which gains a Charisma bonus upon creation. Also, turning into an animal would make you lose any armor you'd have anyway, and Sorcerers don't generally wear armor anyway, either.

Another way you might get another natural attack while in fox form is the Feral Mutagen Alchemist Discovery. Pour your mutagen into a doggie bowl or something, turn into a Fox, then lap up the mutagen, and grow your Claws. Although, as I write, it occurs to me that there might be another problem: while your bottle of mutagen is on your person, it would absorb into your animal form and be unaccessible. If the Mutagen leaves your person, it might deactivate or something. I'm not sure.

Yet another way you might gain another natural attack while in Fox form is with a dip into White-Haired Witch. Like the Draconic Bloodline Claws, White Hair is also a magic thing, not a Polymorph thing, and so you would still have it while in some other shape.

Scarab Sages

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I argue that the claws granted by Aspect of the Beast are not permanent. If taken by a Druid, who then wears metal armor, the claws would disappear because you no longer have wild shape for 24 hours. If taken by a lycanthrope who is later cured of lycanthropy, the claws disappear because you no longer bypass the prerequisites.


Imbicatus wrote:
Waves of Exhaustion is no save. However, as I pointed out earlier, exhaustion doesn't really hurt the bird, only giving a -3 to hit, damage, ac, initiative, and reflex.

I was the one who broached the subject of saves. I was sort of changing the subject, because since Waves of Exhaustion is such a high level spell, it might be more useful to weigh the character build's vulnerability to spellcasters in a more general way, like saving throws.

And the OP was able to answer--as I guessed--that with all his multiclassing, his saves were quite high.

I don't disagree with you that WofE allows no save and is not super-debilitating. I apologize for any confusion I might have caused.


Imbicatus wrote:
I argue that the claws granted by Aspect of the Beast are not permanent. If taken by a Druid, who then wears metal armor, the claws would disappear because you no longer have wild shape for 24 hours. If taken by a lycanthrope who is later cured of lycanthropy, the claws disappear because you no longer bypass the prerequisites.

I don't think the fact that the effect is undoable by curing lycanthropy or violating Druidic tenets means the duration of the effect isn't Permanent.

I think Permanent does not equal irreversible, and so I iterate that I think AotB turns your true form into a clawed form, which would be suppressed by Polymorphing into a form which does not also have Claws, just like a Polymorphing Half Orc with the Razortusk Feat might so lose his Bite Attack.

That being said, I love your counter argument. Very clever.


Darkbridger wrote:

My post had three points: 1) It is an Ex ability. 2) They *are* tied to your form when you gain the feat. If you are arguing that you can grow claws at will, then I would say you are wrong. They grow once, when you get the feat, and you then have them *as a halfling*. Polymorph effects specifically call out Ex abilities and base form for a reason. 3) Lastly, but most important, the claws are a *natural attack* which again, are overridden explicitly by the polymorphed form. And no, a Druid with this feat would *not* retain the claws while shape shifted. A Shifter Ranger would not retain them if he was polymorphed into a bird either. The purpose of the feat is to allow some of your bestial nature to trickle into a non-bestial form, not the other way around.

To your other points, I would (and have) argued that almost all Ex abilities are lost during a polymorph... as long as they are tied to your original form. Claiming they are tied to a feat is just a sort of meta-gaming to try and get around the polymorph rules. The Druid is nasty enough to be honest without these sort of gymnastics.
My post had three points:...

But then back to my question. A kitsune can be permanently in fox form. If I take the feat while in fox form, and have been in that form continously for several levels before taking the feat, when and where do the claws form?

If something is permanently polymorphed such as by polymorph any object, and continues to level up and take feats, can they not take any feats that alter their from from that point on? What about after reincarnate? Does a being who is reincarnated lose claws from this feat?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I argue that the claws granted by Aspect of the Beast are not permanent. If taken by a Druid, who then wears metal armor, the claws would disappear because you no longer have wild shape for 24 hours. If taken by a lycanthrope who is later cured of lycanthropy, the claws disappear because you no longer bypass the prerequisites.

I don't think the fact that the effect is undoable by curing lycanthropy or violating Druidic tenets means the duration of the effect isn't Permanent.

I think Permanent does not equal irreversible, and so I iterate that I think AotB turns your true form into a clawed form, which would be suppressed by Polymorphing into a form which does not also have Claws, just like a Polymorphing Half Orc with the Razortusk Feat might so lose his Bite Attack.

That being said, I love your counter argument. Very clever.

Ooooh, how about this. Kitsune druid. Grows claws. Wears armor. Loses claws. Uses Kitsune abilities to change form and stay that way for 24 hours until claws regrow.

What happens?

Aspect of the Beast never mentions your original form or in what form you grow the claws, only that you grow claws.


Imbicatus wrote:

I argue that the claws granted by Aspect of the Beast are not permanent. If taken by a Druid, who then wears metal armor, the claws would disappear because you no longer have wild shape for 24 hours. If taken by a lycanthrope who is later cured of lycanthropy, the claws disappear because you no longer bypass the prerequisites.

Once again, the Feat itself disagrees with you:

Your bestial nature manifests itself in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you choose the feat, and then you cannot change it.


Godwyn wrote:
Darkbridger wrote:

My post had three points: 1) It is an Ex ability. 2) They *are* tied to your form when you gain the feat. If you are arguing that you can grow claws at will, then I would say you are wrong. They grow once, when you get the feat, and you then have them *as a halfling*. Polymorph effects specifically call out Ex abilities and base form for a reason. 3) Lastly, but most important, the claws are a *natural attack* which again, are overridden explicitly by the polymorphed form. And no, a Druid with this feat would *not* retain the claws while shape shifted. A Shifter Ranger would not retain them if he was polymorphed into a bird either. The purpose of the feat is to allow some of your bestial nature to trickle into a non-bestial form, not the other way around.

To your other points, I would (and have) argued that almost all Ex abilities are lost during a polymorph... as long as they are tied to your original form. Claiming they are tied to a feat is just a sort of meta-gaming to try and get around the polymorph rules. The Druid is nasty enough to be honest without these sort of gymnastics.
My post had three points:...

But then back to my question. A kitsune can be permanently in fox form. If I take the feat while in fox form, and have been in that form continously for several levels before taking the feat, when and where do the claws form?

If something is permanently polymorphed such as by polymorph any object, and continues to level up and take feats, can they not take any feats that alter their from from that point on? What about after reincarnate? Does a being who is reincarnated lose claws from this feat?

I don't think it is the case that Kitsune can be permanently in Fox form. the Fox Shape Feat says it is like Beast Shape II, with a duration that is respectable, but far from permanent.

Did I miss something? Prove to me that it is permanent.


Godwyn wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
I argue that the claws granted by Aspect of the Beast are not permanent. If taken by a Druid, who then wears metal armor, the claws would disappear because you no longer have wild shape for 24 hours. If taken by a lycanthrope who is later cured of lycanthropy, the claws disappear because you no longer bypass the prerequisites.

I don't think the fact that the effect is undoable by curing lycanthropy or violating Druidic tenets means the duration of the effect isn't Permanent.

I think Permanent does not equal irreversible, and so I iterate that I think AotB turns your true form into a clawed form, which would be suppressed by Polymorphing into a form which does not also have Claws, just like a Polymorphing Half Orc with the Razortusk Feat might so lose his Bite Attack.

That being said, I love your counter argument. Very clever.

Ooooh, how about this. Kitsune druid. Grows claws. Wears armor. Loses claws. Uses Kitsune abilities to change form and stay that way for 24 hours until claws regrow.

What happens?

Aspect of the Beast never mentions your original form or in what form you grow the claws, only that you grow claws.

Not sure I understand this. If you take AotB as a Kitsune druid, then your normal Kitsune form gains the claws. It doesn't matter if you are using the ring, the Kitsune ability to appear human, or the Kitsune feat to appear as a fox. All are polymorph affects that override natural attacks tied to your normal form. If you are still in human form when the 24 hours expire, you're still under a polymorph effect and would not have AotB claws while human (or a fox).

If a player wanted to take the feat and apply it to the human form only, I'd be inclined to allow that, and it actually makes more sense, but I would not say that it works RAW. I would also point out that the rules explicitly state the normal kitsune form bite attack does not function while in human form (and get's downgraded in fox form if that feat is taken)... precedent and whatnot. If a racial trait won't cross polymorph boundaries (even with a polymorph ability that is *also* a racial trait), why would a feat?


Godwyn wrote:
Darkbridger wrote:

My post had three points: 1) It is an Ex ability. 2) They *are* tied to your form when you gain the feat. If you are arguing that you can grow claws at will, then I would say you are wrong. They grow once, when you get the feat, and you then have them *as a halfling*. Polymorph effects specifically call out Ex abilities and base form for a reason. 3) Lastly, but most important, the claws are a *natural attack* which again, are overridden explicitly by the polymorphed form. And no, a Druid with this feat would *not* retain the claws while shape shifted. A Shifter Ranger would not retain them if he was polymorphed into a bird either. The purpose of the feat is to allow some of your bestial nature to trickle into a non-bestial form, not the other way around.

To your other points, I would (and have) argued that almost all Ex abilities are lost during a polymorph... as long as they are tied to your original form. Claiming they are tied to a feat is just a sort of meta-gaming to try and get around the polymorph rules. The Druid is nasty enough to be honest without these sort of gymnastics.
My post had three points:...

But then back to my question. A kitsune can be permanently in fox form. If I take the feat while in fox form, and have been in that form continously for several levels before taking the feat, when and where do the claws form?

If something is permanently polymorphed such as by polymorph any object, and continues to level up and take feats, can they not take any feats that alter their from from that point on? What about after reincarnate? Does a being who is reincarnated lose claws from this feat?

permanently polymorphed or polymorph with a duration it does not matter. Polymorph rules are polymorph rules. It is not your original true form. So yes, if you take AotB while permanently polymorphed you will not gain the effects. If you take the feat and then have the polymorph effect dispelled, you will gain the effects of the feat.

Did you read the Reincarnate spell before posting?

"A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed."

Kitsune with AotB comes back as a Dwarf with AotB. As a DM, I would probably allow the reincarnated player to choose the actual AotB effect again since it is a new body, but there's no explicit rule for that anywhere.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

Based to the recent errata on magic items Fox shape would last as long as the spell, but it could be reactivated at will.

The problem is you have an original form. A kitsune has the change shape ability to a human form. A Kitsune with Aspect of the Beast would have them in Kitsune form and they would go away along with the bite attack when they assume human form.

The ability says you grow claws. Not you can grow claws, not no matter what form you are in you grow claws. It is based on the idea that as shapeshifters you can manifest an aspect of that shape when not shapeshifting. So sure i can turn into a Tiger with claws but when I don't want to be a tiger with this feat I can still have claws.

Losing your wild shape ability means you lose your claws, that is a game mechanic technicality, not support for your argument. In game though, it means you have lost your link with your inner beast and can no longer give it manifestation. As soon as it is reestablished you regrow your claws. In your original form.

Polymorph is specific, effects that are based on form do not transfer when you polymorph. Natural attacks is a specific one listed. The source doesn't matter. You can take a trait, feat, racial archetype, racial trait or whatever. Those traits give you the natural weapon, that natural weapon goes away when you polymorph.

The exception is the ability to grow a natural weapon upon command. Sorcerers and Barbarians have a feat for this, you could say certain Alchemists can even take a mutagen to enhance a polymorphed shape. I would rule however if you take a mutagen that gives you claws then polymorph you lose the claws, but if you take it while polymorphed you would gain them.

Aspect of the Beast

Whether by magic or a curse of your blood, some part of you is more beast than man.

Prerequisites: wild shape class feature, see Special.

Benefit: Your bestial nature manifests itself in one of the following ways. You choose the manifestation when you choose the feat, and then you cannot change it.

Night Senses (Ex): If your base race has normal vision, you gain low-light vision. If your base race has low-light vision, you gain darkvision out to a range of 30 feet. If your base race has darkvision, the range of your darkvision increases by 30 feet.
Claws of the Beast (Ex): You grow a pair of claws. These claws are primary attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage (1d3 if you are Small).
Predator's Leap (Ex): You can make a running jump without needing to run 10 feet before you jump.
Wild Instinct (Ex): You gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks and a +2 bonus on Survival skill checks.

Special: A character that has contracted lycanthropy can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites. A ranger who selects the natural weapon combat style can take this feat without having to meet the prerequisites (even if he does not select Aspect of the Beast as a bonus feat).

The feat describes the inability to alter itself and it is a manifestation of some part of you. Not an ability you can manifest at will or hide. It is a change to your original form not something you can activate, therefore it is tied to your form and negated during polymorph.


With respect to Feral Mutagen - if it leaves your possession it becomes inert until an alchemist picks it up again. To use it in fox shape you have to set it down, turn into a fox, then somehow pick it up again. IMO picking it up without hands and drinking it would take some time and difficulty but could be done, especially considering your superhuman dexterity.


And this is why to many options can be a bad thing


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'll be running a pirate campaign soon.

This will be the captain of an enemy ship I promise you.

Dot.


Regarding attacking with this build,

I thoroughly read most of the discussion, but only skimmed through the last page very quickly. If the following message has been discussed already I apologize:

The way I see it is that creatures that naturally have the ability to use [manufactured] weapons as well as natural attacks, or that gain the ability to perform natural attacks while still being able to use [manufactured] weapons can mix natural attacks with non-natural attacks, such as the tengu example.

HOWEVER, when polymorphing into a creature that cannot use manufactured weapons, I would assume it's including manufactured-weapon-substitute attacks such as monk's unarmed attacks, and hence CANNOT attack with a manufactured weapon nor with any unarmed attack that is not it's natural attack. This would make sense since the required anatomy to use manufactured weapons is the same as that which is used to powerfully strike weak points of the enemy with unarmed attacks.

This is very clear RAI in my opinion, and I would think somehow is also RAW (although I have not looked for specific rules indicating this).

Wild animals doing monk unarmed attacks is stupid an illogical, and is obviously overpowered (not just in this scenario, but virtually any scenario). Tengu are not wild animals, they are a civilized race that can —and do— use [manufactured] weapons.

Also, obviously polymorphing after you have claws also would not give claws on your new form, I think RAW is pretty clear on this and that it doesn't need discussion.

I would say that he build is still very strong at lower levels despite having only 1 attack, no? Presumably that could be circumvented by not actually polymorphing into an animal, and just shrinking instead.


IUS come up a lot on the boards for various reasons and in past discussions it has come up that there is no ruling limiting unarmed strikes to fists. Also the rules state creatures that do not make natural attacks can make unarmed strikes, but it doesn't limit it to them either.

The reason most animals or the like wouldn't make unarmed strikes is due to the fact that they have more effective ways to attack when capable of natural attacks. It is a sub par attack.

Why would it provoke with an unarmed strike, when a natural attack doesn't provoke, does as much or more damage as the unarmed strike would and is lethal damage?


Joesi wrote:
Wild animals doing monk unarmed attacks is stupid an illogical, and is obviously overpowered (not just in this scenario, but virtually any scenario).

Since quite a few combat styles are named for the animal they imitate, I think a number of animals can do monk style combat. Example

/cevah


Skylancer4 wrote:
IUS come up a lot on the boards for various reasons and in past discussions it has come up that there is no ruling limiting unarmed strikes to fists.

More than that. non fists unarmed strikes are explicitly called out for everyone.

Unarmed Attacks

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Quote:
Also the rules state creatures that do not make natural attacks can make unarmed strikes, but it doesn't limit it to them either.

I don't disagree, but where does it spell it out?

Shadow Lodge

Skylancer4 wrote:
I think you may be confused on how the OPs build works. The character build doesn't have flurry, which is part of why it can use unarmed strikes and natural attacks in a full attack routine. It is using unarmed strikes for its BAB routine and then "tacking on" the natural attacks as secondary natural attacks with the -5 to hit. As long as the unarmed strike isn't using the "limb" of the natural attack every available natural attack is available for use.

It isn't the flurry it is the unarmed strike used with a natural attack together. The flurry has come up but it not the point of my discussion. Sorry if I have confused anyone on this issue about the flurry sequence of attack. In the equipment chapter under strikes, unarmed, the last sentence reads, "Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see chapter8)" I interpret this as unarmed strikes are a separate weapon from natural attacks. You need help to combine them, I know this is unpopular.

Skylancer4 wrote:
The bird can go in and wing slam/head butt/knee/elbow/whatever it decides to do (aka unarmed strike) as many times as its BAB allows and then do its claw/claw/etc. at -5 to hit as long as the natural attacks associated "limb" wasn't used. As a monk, who has special wording indicating that they can use other body parts besides fists, the bird has options.

In the monk class, under the unarmed strike class description, it says, "A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet." In no measure does it say you are using natural attacks with unarmed strikes. There is no claw, bite, slam, or anything thereof mentioned in this description.

On top of that, let's say you have a creature that has a claw and a hand plus the impr unarmed strike. If you use both the hand and claw in a full round of attacks, you would be taking minuses for using two weapons, a -6 for the main attack and a -10 for the off attack.

edit: sorry, started to say more here but don't have time to finish. I hope all this helps.

Skylancer4 wrote:

The only thing that prevents the use of a natural attack when making a full attack via BAB, is using the limb to make an attack with a (normally manufactured) weapon. Example: If you have 2 claws on your arms with a natural attack routine of claw/claw, a BAB of 13 and a longsword... You can either claw/claw at full BAB or if you wanted to use a longsword you could swing the longsword 3 times because of your BAB and use one of the claws (the one not using the sword) at -5 as a secondary natural attack. The rules say, the limb using the sword makes using the natural attack associated with that limb "unavailable".

The only wrinkle that might occur, as others have said, is the feat for the claws. If they are part of the base characters form and not something that is "grown" or activated after changing shape, the polymorph school would indeed "overwrite" them. I haven't read the feat in awhile so I'd have to read it again to be sure.

I agree with you but to throw a monkey wrench here. If a creature had two hands, claws (natural attacks), and the impr unarmed strike feat, the creatures hands could use the full attack action with the improved unarmed strike feat then the claws as secondary attacks.


Shadow Dax wrote:
I interpret this as unarmed strikes are a separate weapon from natural attacks. You need help to combine them, I know this is unpopular.

You don't need help to combine them. They act just like manufactured weapons (quoted above). Combining a manufactured weapon with a natural weapon sends your natural weapons to offhand attacks, like most people here have been doing. This is spelled out under natural attacks.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

ShadowDax I am not sure where you are getting some of your information. The easiest to explain it like this.

Manufactured Weapons - Includes Unarmed Strikes, allows iteratives, take a penalty for two weapon fighting. Off hand weapons do half strength damage. Flurry is a version of two weapon fighting. It has its own rules. Two weapon fighting does not interact with natural attacks any differently than normal rules, unless called out.

Natural Weapons - Either Primary or Secondary. Can use one per limb, all Primary are at full bonus and full strength damage, all secondary are at -5 and half strength damage. All are considered light weapons. If you have only one natural attack it is considered primary and you get 1.5 str on it, you also get the 2 handed weapon bonus for Power Attack.

You can combine the two. Make your iteratives as normal with manufactured weapon and make attacks with your natural weapons as long as the limb the attack is on is not involved in using the manufactured weapon. All natural attacks are secondary when combined with manufactured weapons.

Some feats exist that alter the bonuses on secondary attacks (multiattack) or that allow you to use a natural attack in place of an unarmed strike (feral combat training). In each case the feat determines the change to the rules.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
IUS come up a lot on the boards for various reasons and in past discussions it has come up that there is no ruling limiting unarmed strikes to fists.

More than that. non fists unarmed strikes are explicitly called out for everyone.

Unarmed Attacks

Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Quote:
Also the rules state creatures that do not make natural attacks can make unarmed strikes, but it doesn't limit it to them either.

I don't disagree, but where does it spell it out?

Was looking for some of older threads on google, a few of them had it quoted. I think maybe the bestiary?

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