so yeah... just murdered a high level wizard

[Jodokai]

The reason I was being sarcastic was because the OP specifically said he was a selfish NE wizard. Which we both agreed was in character for him.

As far as the rant, did you read the thread before climbing on your horse? If you had you would have realized his party helped him do it. Second Pathfider is not a videogame, if the GM, who is a person, doesn't want you to kill his NPC you don't. It really is that simple.

[Radic]

Think about what information the wizard has. What did he see of you? Would he know for sure it was you? Get the rogue to bluff the higher level wizard and tell him you have a doppelganger enemy? Stash the loot somewhere then try to find a scroll of modify memory to cast on yourself?

I really think the best way to avoid punishment would be to convince the wizard that it was not you. If your lucky he will be one of those wizards that over thinks everything and is arrogant enough to believe you are not capable of taking him out.

[Kobold Catgirl]

A smart wizard will simply ask for your spellbook. If you hand it over, he'll then see you have limp lash, vanish, and mirror image.

You'll need scrolls of modify memory for the entire party. That just might work. Get a trustworthy third party involved to help you find the hidden stolen spellbook afterwards.

[Montezuma]

Grow a mustache.

It is your only hope.

[Mike J]

I'm with Dracovar on this one - have your character be the NE gangster that he really is. If Mr. 16th level "corpse" shows up again, just have your character say "Don't make me Limp Lash you again, Bit#&!"

...and then pull out a new character sheet.

[Avh]

Silent Saturn wrote:

I think people are being way too hard on Gallyck here, and possibly on his DM.

Why is it a problem that Gallyck played a NE wizard with dreams of lichdom? He's level 5 at the time, which means he's been doing it for at least 4 levels now, and presumably his DM and fellow players said that was okay with them. If the DM was going to sic a 16th-level wizard on him for it, he should have just said right from the start, "Don't play an evil character, it won't work for the story." Likewise, if the rest of the table didn't want an evil teammate, they could have spoken up.

Being Evil is not the same as being a stupid murderer.

When you're Evil in a Magical world, you don't want to murder any one without a very good reason, and obviously, taking the spellbook of a wizard isn't a very good reason.

Why ?
You can be framed for the murder (via numerous ways, from deducing the murderer with clues, to using spells, such as Speak with the Dead). That means that not only you could have your target's friends as enemies, but you would have to deal with law enforcements (paladins, guards, wizard guilds, ...).

Your target can very well be alive and seek revenge (resurrection, reincarnation, clone, ...), be it directly (as people suggested earlier) or indirectly (help from the planes, hiring adventurers/assassins, ...).

There are no perfect ways to prevent others to find you. Be it by divinations spells or by skills.

I didn't even go to the "16th level wizard with clone" here, just standard things that apply to potentially every single NPC in the game.

[Rerednaw]

No idea what the GM had in mind. I don't know the players, the story, the plot. I've never used 'Hey I've saved the village twice, you didn't give me what I want now we'll murder you" as a PC motivation but to each their own.

I always have PCs as the main characters...otherwise you're playing in Faerun and wondering why you bother because every problem can have Drizzt, Blackstaff, Elminster, etc...thrown at it. You're just there as comic relief.

If something came to pass in a game I was playing I'd leave but since that doesn't appear an option, just go about your business like nothing happened. Whatever story the GM had in mind will happen. Deal with it then.

If this is a solicitation for tactical advice it doesn't matter. It's not just a matter of CR disparity, the GM is the world-maker and can do whatever he wants. I mean really if the GM wanted you dead...rocks fall and you die. Game over man. Game over. That's not a great story or fun, so hoping he had some kind of epic tale in mind is what I'd go with.

[Jodokai]

Avh wrote:

When you're Evil in a Magical world, you don't want to murder any one without a very good reason, and

Says who? Why do you get to decide what evil means in a game you're not even involved in? I've quoted you, but this statement can apply to a lot of people posting on this thread.

Avh wrote:

obviously, taking the spellbook of a wizard isn't a very good reason.

And now you get to decide what is and isn't a good motivation for everyone's character?

Avh wrote:

Why ?

You can be framed for the murder (via numerous ways, from deducing the murderer with clues, to using spells, such as Speak with the Dead).

And you can just as easily frame someone else for the crime. Leave a Hat of Disguise at the scene of the crime.

Avh wrote:

That means that not only you could have your target's friends as enemies, but you would have to deal with law enforcements (paladins, guards, wizard guilds, ...).

Your target can very well be alive and seek revenge (resurrection, reincarnation, clone, ...), be it directly (as people suggested earlier) or indirectly (help from the planes, hiring adventurers/assassins, ...).

There are no perfect ways to prevent others to find you. Be it by divinations spells or by skills.

I didn't even go to the "16th level wizard with clone" here, just standard things that apply to potentially every single NPC in the game.

Wouldn't evil wizards have the same thing? So what you're essentially saying is adventuring is stupid and we should all make characters that sit around knitting. Glad I'm not in your games.

[Undone]

Imbicatus wrote:

Evil Stupid is the scorpion in the scorpion and the frog. The scorpion knows it will die if it betrays the frog, but it does anyway, and drowns.

"Little frog, I can swim."

[Charon's Little Helper]

Jodokai wrote:

Avh wrote:

When you're Evil in a Magical world, you don't want to murder any one without a very good reason, and

Says who? Why do you get to decide what evil means in a game you're not even involved in? I've quoted you, but this statement can apply to a lot of people posting on this thread..

Intelligence enough to know the risk/reward scenario involves much higher risk than reward. Either he's low level and it's not worth making the town hate you, or he's high level and you're hosed. (as it was in this case)

Jodokai wrote:

[Wouldn't evil wizards have the same thing? So what you're essentially saying is adventuring is stupid and we should all make characters that sit around knitting. Glad I'm not in your games.

Except evil wizards aren't part of the framework of normal society. If you were a drow in a drow society it'd be stupid to try to kill a drow wizard for little to no reason without the protection of a powerful house or some such to back you up. Same situation - you're going to be murdered by either the wizard himself when you fail - or by his wizard friends.

If you're an outsider who kills the wizard and leaves - that's one thing. (Though you could still be murdered by the wizard himself.) But as they say - don't poop where you sleep.

[pickin_grinnin]

Run and hide.

[Quark Blast]

Arachnofiend wrote:

...snip...

As another note: what town with a citizen with 16 wizard class levels has problems that a 5th level party can solve?

You haven't been gaming long have you? :p

For an equal but opposite experience, you could play in Eberron and wonder why evil doesn't already rule the world.

[Trigger Loaded]

Quark Blast wrote:

For an equal but opposite experience, you could play in Eberron and wonder why evil doesn't already rule the world.

Mostly because every conspiracy ends up getting tangled in every other evil group's conspiracy, so nothing gets done.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Trigger Loaded wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

For an equal but opposite experience, you could play in Eberron and wonder why evil doesn't already rule the world.

Mostly because every conspiracy ends up getting tangled in every other evil group's conspiracy, so nothing gets done.

Which is surprisingly realistic. :P

(Monolithic evil gets on my nerves.)

[Quark Blast]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Trigger Loaded wrote:

Quark Blast wrote:

For an equal but opposite experience, you could play in Eberron and wonder why evil doesn't already rule the world.

Mostly because every conspiracy ends up getting tangled in every other evil group's conspiracy, so nothing gets done.

Which is surprisingly realistic. :P

(Monolithic evil gets on my nerves.)

Except in Eberron there are evil groups that just want to burn the whole place down and, prima facie, have the ability to do so. The only in-universe explanation is the Draconic Prophecy which tells us... wait for it ...absolutely nothing. Yes, nothing. Like everything else in that setting the DM gets to make it all up... $800 worth of official source and splat-books not withstanding. ;p

[Avh]

Jodokai wrote:

Avh wrote:

When you're Evil in a Magical world, you don't want to murder any one without a very good reason, and

Says who? Why do you get to decide what evil means in a game you're not even involved in? I've quoted you, but this statement can apply to a lot of people posting on this thread.

Says world consistency.

In my world (and I expect the same in worlds I am a player in too), if someone is killed there will be an investigation.

In a world like Golarion, clues are not the only way to solve an investigation : you can communicate with the victim (speak with the dead), you can read minds (detect thoughts), etc...

If you kill John Doe a local farmer, guards may not use such expensive ways, but if a local magic item merchant, rich, with possibly status and friends in high places is killed, I expect there will be massive uses of such tactics.

A very rich person (or a someone with rich friends/allies) will even be able to be raised from the dead.

So yeah, it's very dangerous and stupid to kill someone for nothing in a standard Pathfinder world. Or at least, someone of importance.

Quote:

Avh wrote:

obviously, taking the spellbook of a wizard isn't a very good reason.

And now you get to decide what is and isn't a good motivation for everyone's character?

It's not a good/bad motivation in character that I am questionning : it's wether it is worth the risk to kill someone of such importance in the town (magic item merchant) just to acquire a mere spellbook, knowing that you can and certainly will be caught.

Quote:

Avh wrote:

Why ?

You can be framed for the murder (via numerous ways, from deducing the murderer with clues, to using spells, such as Speak with the Dead).

And you can just as easily frame someone else for the crime. Leave a Hat of Disguise at the scene of the crime.

You can frame someone else if investigators doesn't look very much into it.

For example, if you kill a poor man, and someone witnessed the "Hat of disguise" looking, it may be enough.

It certainly will much more difficult if the investigators are sent by allies of the victim, and if the investigators are given high ressources (or even if those allies send adventurers to get the truth).

Quote:

Wouldn't evil wizards have the same thing? So what you're essentially saying is adventuring is stupid and we should all make characters that sit around knitting. Glad I'm not in your games.

You can make Evil things without being stupid. Think forward, acquire knowledge, status, fame, ressources. But don't kill a rich merchant in a town without expecting retribution. Because there will be.

[Jodokai]

I've been snarky in this thread, no excuses, I apologize.

My point is really that good characters have the same worries. They kill the evil tyrant, and the evil tyrant has relatives. This doesn't make for a bad game, it can add flavor, and if the GM doesn't like it, he doesn't let it happen.

Anyway to the OP, your GM has a whole house load of plot hooks now, which sounds like what he was after. I hope you let us know how it turns out.

[Wrath]

I read through a fair bit of the thread then jumped to the end. Hope I'm not repeating stuff.

I have to say, this GM has pulled a brilliant plot hook from a perfectly in character moment.

Neutral evil self assured and power hungry. Why woulodn't he kill the local wizard for his book if he fel he could do it.

Now, the GM has the perfect sword of damocles to hang over the players heads. They know this wizard an wipe them easily. But maybe the wizard was hiding his power for a reason. Maybe he has powerfull enemies who were looking for him too. Maybe he will force the players to work for him as recompense for the actions they took.

Great plot hook from in character decisions. Sounds like a really fun game.

Of course, he could just turn up and ROFLSTOMP you as well. In which case I think that would be a wasted potential, but its his game :)

[Avh]

Jodokai wrote:

I've been snarky in this thread, no excuses, I apologize.

My point is really that good characters have the same worries. They kill the evil tyrant, and the evil tyrant has relatives. This doesn't make for a bad game, it can add flavor, and if the GM doesn't like it, he doesn't let it happen.

Which leads to what I wrote in my first post : "taking the spellbook of a wizard isn't a very good reason."

[Jodokai]

Avh wrote:

Which leads to what I wrote in my first post : "taking the spellbook of a wizard isn't a very good reason."

While I don't like the way I said it, it is still valid. The end of your sentence needs to say "for me". You cannot say what is or isn't a good reason for someone else's character.

[Remco Sommeling]

Jodokai wrote:

Avh wrote:

Which leads to what I wrote in my first post : "taking the spellbook of a wizard isn't a very good reason."

While I don't like the way I said it, it is still valid. The end of your sentence needs to say "for me". You cannot say what is or isn't a good reason for someone else's character.

Let's not get up in semantics, obviously he was giving his opinion.

Now in my opinion, the OP was pretty much playing the stupid dumb evil that deserves to die horribly. That is before the time the OP's character found out he had a clone or was a '16th lvl wizard'. (DM was probably running his mouth on that).

Then maybe the OP's group has a different play style and is fine with it. As to killing the wizard, it can happen, not everyone lives daily life being prepared for a psycho murderer to jump out off the bushes. He might simply not have had a contingency spell, or several other counter measures in place a high level wizard is capable of. Much like a high level fighter isn't always wearing fullplate.

[FenrisJohanson]

Ok I am the GM so I'll post so I can help clear somethings up, but I'm not spoiling my game.
1. Gallyck, and the rest of the party are amazing to tabletop with, and they fight like the family/friends they are. So its never a dull moment. They are a bunch of murder hobos most of the time, but they are my murder hobos. And I stand by he's decision. It didn't fully go the way he wanted, that's gaming though. They needed loot, I had been holding back a little, so go for it.

2. Yes. I admit, I made a cookie cutter npc, with no level or stats and basically had him there to sell items. So when I was asked to exchange spells, I said no, because I didn't have them. Truth. Then Gallyck takes me to the side and told me his plan, I thought is was great thing for his character and give me a chance to try some things I'd been wanting to for a while now.

3. Things are set in motion for the party by this wizard. In a fit of laziness again, I just handed him what I had written down for his "spellbook" and it had his level on the sheet of paper, but he would have known how powerful he was very shortly after looking in the spellbook.
So yeah...some of it has been planed, some reactive, but hey, we have a good time. I feel Gallyck was playing to the character and we will post later to let you all know what happens from her.
Thanks for all your crazy posts.

[Tacticslion]

That's pretty excellent, FenrisJohanson! Sounds like you're a pretty solid GM with a great game going on! I hope things go well, and you've gotta let us know what happens!

[Dracovar]

FenrisJohanson wrote:

Ok I am the GM so I'll post so I can help clear somethings up, but I'm not spoiling my game.

1. Gallyck, and the rest of the party are amazing to tabletop with, and they fight like the family/friends they are. So its never a dull moment. They are a bunch of murder hobos most of the time, but they are my murder hobos. And I stand by he's decision. It didn't fully go the way he wanted, that's gaming though. They needed loot, I had been holding back a little, so go for it.

2. Yes. I admit, I made a cookie cutter npc, with no level or stats and basically had him there to sell items. So when I was asked to exchange spells, I said no, because I didn't have them. Truth. Then Gallyck takes me to the side and told me his plan, I thought is was great thing for his character and give me a chance to try some things I'd been wanting to for a while now.

3. Things are set in motion for the party by this wizard. In a fit of laziness again, I just handed him what I had written down for his "spellbook" and it had his level on the sheet of paper, but he would have known how powerful he was very shortly after looking in the spellbook.
So yeah...some of it has been planed, some reactive, but hey, we have a good time. I feel Gallyck was playing to the character and we will post later to let you all know what happens from her.
Thanks for all your crazy posts.

Hooray - GM update.

Glad to hear you have a great group and enjoy DM'ing them. That's huge.

Hope you garner some hilarious options from the thread for Gallyck other than just a high level "ROFLSTOMP" as one person put it.

I hope we hear what happened sometime down the road.

[CWheezy]

I dunno, I mean, sometimes characters are dumb and die.This character and probably his friends are now on a high level wizard's hit list, so they are boned.

Not every evil character makes it to master villain status

[Rabbiteconomist]

CWheezy wrote:

I dunno, I mean, sometimes characters are dumb and die.This character and probably his friends are now on a high level wizard's hit list, so they are boned.

Not every evil character makes it to master villain status

Just those that have the grit, resolve and cunning to succeed. And those that are so awesome that everyone is rooting for them despite being Evil.

Thanks for sharing Gallyck and FenrisJohansen!

[Grokk_Bloodfist]

Jodokai wrote:

Second Pathfider is not a videogame, if the GM, who is a person, doesn't want you to kill his NPC you don't. It really is that simple.

This. I'm not sure how this wasn't addressed with a Contingencied Minor Globe of Invulnerability which pretty much any 16th level Wizard worth a damn would have, or SR. You don't get to that level without some basic defences in place.

[Gallyck]

Im in ur game, murderin ur d00dz

[Matthew Downie]

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

You don't get to that level without some basic defences in place.

I can see a crafter thinking that being a Clone is a sufficient form of protection. Not everyone is as paranoid as the average PC who expects to be attacked by powerful enemies every day and win.

[Pnakotus Detsujin]

Well, if I'm talking to both DM and Player, here's my suggestions

1) Let this not be a "character quest". the other players must be involved in this at some level, or it will become a dull situation. so this event should not monopolize future session but being played. time must be fun for everybody
2) Let this affect more deeply the character: a level 16 spellbook is a fabled weapon at this level: true names of otherwordly beings, arcana rituals of augmentation, sentient spell or curses running through it! Can the spellbook, from a tool, evolve into a plot element or a complementor of the character.
By the way, what spells are inside? was this wizard a necromancer? (clone spell?)

3) Surely the DM is aware that this wizard must have his reasons to "allow" such rapid demise, and must already have something conjured up around it. So, my question its: which form or revenge or retribution will this npc seek out? Most depend of his character type.

Let us assume that lies, deceptions and such will not work (knowledge throught spell may well overcome them). If he was a good wizard in hiding, he'll surely send a few agents to retrieve the spell book and capture is assassin, limiting extra damage.
If he was not in hiding, he may appear by himself to retrieve the spellbook wherever it is and punish the character at a later point. Was he a neutral or evil character, i easily see him toying with the younger wizard and putting him under his control, doing stuff as he please. A good quest for an evil wizard may be to "break free" from control of another stronger wizard and it could force him to "play nice" looking for the right moment (typical sith attitude).

Obviously, i'm proposing this as story elements. A "normal, non affiliated wizard" would respond to murder with total obliteration, like
round 1 - greater scrying
round 2/4 - buffing, summoning
round 5 - greater teleport
round 6 - death.

[Ughbash]

Sending in the middle of the night (more than 25 words because he researched a variant).

The Message wrote:

I know who you are. I don't care what you want. If you're looking for power, I can tell you I don't have to give it... but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you return my spellbook now, along wiht 5000 gold pieces that will be the end of it - I will not look for you, I will not pursue you... but if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you... and I will kill you.

[Gallyck]

My response:

"Good Luck"

[Oly]

Gallyck wrote:

My response:

"Good Luck"

I've been supportive of you in this thread, but if it were my character and the character received that message, I'd give him back his spell book and pay the 5,000 gp. You've already had time to copy the contents, so 5,000 gp is a bargain for what you got; and since you've copied the contents, it's basically a 5,000 gp charge for not having a 16th level wizard pursue your 5th level character.

I'd take that deal.

[StabbittyDoom]

Oly wrote:

Gallyck wrote:

My response:

"Good Luck"

I've been supportive of you in this thread, but if it were my character and the character received that message, I'd give him back his spell book and pay the 5,000 gp. You've already had time to copy the contents, so 5,000 gp is a bargain for what you got; and since you've copied the contents, it's basically a 5,000 gp charge for not having a 16th level wizard pursue your 5th level character.

I'd take that deal.

His response was a continuation of the movie reference, not a serious response. It's from Taken.

[Ross Byers]

Oly wrote:

You've already had time to copy the contents, so 5,000 gp is a bargain for what you got; and since you've copied the contents,

Copying spells from a spellbook takes a spellcraft check of 15 + spell level and spell level + 1 hours.

That's not an extremely difficult check by any means, but a day or two will hardly be enough time to copy a spellbook that caps out at 8th level spells.

[Oly]

Ross Byers wrote:

Oly wrote:

You've already had time to copy the contents, so 5,000 gp is a bargain for what you got; and since you've copied the contents,

Copying spells from a spellbook takes a spellcraft check of 15 + spell level and spell level + 1 hours.

That's not an extremely difficult check by any means, but a day or two will hardly be enough time to copy a spellbook that caps out at 8th level spells.

Fair enough. I guess that makes it a harder decision (assuming that upon getting the message he's only had the book for a day or two).

For me, I'd be risk averse and give it back anyway. I don't think had he known the wizard was 16th level he'd have killed the wizard and taken it, and the 5,000 gp is cheaper than a Resurrection spell's material component (this even leaves out that if he doesn't want a permanent negative level he'd also need Restoration, though that's relatively cheap; it also leaves out that the wizard might not be satisfied by killing him once).

That said, the GM's post sounds like he has some more involved plans for how the situation gets resolved.

[leo1925]

Yeah you need spell level hours to copy each spell, so no a couple of days aren't enough to copy that many spells.

[Wrath]

Send him your old book with an IOU.

[Quark Blast]

I was thinking maybe the 16th level Wiz is a little off his meds. I mean, one PC from a low-mid-level party successfully Yoinked! his most precious item (assuming he doesn't own an artifact), using a spur of the moment half-baked plan. What an addled dufus. If the DM were to RP honestly, the victim just might not have enough clarity of faculties to make an adequate threat, especially if the rest of the party is behind the party thief... er... I mean wizard.

[phantom1592]

Half-baked plans are the ones that SHOULD work. It's how the Joker succeeded so many times. The wizard has had plenty of time to plan for a dozen scenarios... it's the one he didn't think of that bites him.

[Arbane the Terrible]

Sissyl wrote:

Complete Book of Elves had a neat little story about what revenge can mean, and why rings of regeneration are not your friend.

And that regular elves make Drow look like amateurs in the 'pointless sadism' department, but that's another flamewar entirely.

But yeah, as everyone here has been saying, you are so screwed that Paranoia GMs will shudder in in sympathy - and then start taking notes. There is literally NO countermeasures you can take that will save you... so screw it. Enjoy however long you have left. And try to find some of this Uberwizzard's old enemies and take the bastard down with you, just out of sheer spite.

[Senko]

phantom1592 wrote:

Half-baked plans are the ones that SHOULD work. It's how the Joker succeeded so many times. The wizard has had plenty of time to plan for a dozen scenarios... it's the one he didn't think of that bites him.

As the old saying goes the best swordsman in the world doesn't fear the second best he fears the worst because he doesn't know what the idiot will do.

[Quark Blast]

Senko wrote:

phantom1592 wrote:

Half-baked plans are the ones that SHOULD work. It's how the Joker succeeded so many times. The wizard has had plenty of time to plan for a dozen scenarios... it's the one he didn't think of that bites him.

As the old saying goes the best swordsman in the world doesn't fear the second best he fears the worst because he doesn't know what the idiot will do.

Only if he fights fair. And one might surmise that the best swordsman became the best by not always fighting fair.