I guess you could define "a bit on the young side". We talking high schoolers or 7-10 yr olds? Somewhere in between?
Usually, as a DM, I'd warn them, and then let them decide. If charging in with a squishy wizard gets em killed...well, maybe after a couple of examples of what Not To Do, the problem sorts itself out with more circumspect play. Evolution in action, basically. For young players, though, I'd probably knock em out, make em lose their stuff, but always leave that chance for them to recover. But, if they don't start to learn, well, gloves are off and welcome to Darwinism, my little friends...
Not alone in the least. My campaign first kicked off in 1979. I revised things in the early eighties, and it's been persistent since then.
I'm not even thinking about going to 2E at this point. I'll need it to be a more mature system. And even then, maybe not. The Conversion Guide for 2E is a wee bit light on details, with a lot of, "wing it" types of situations, because it's just too different, IMO.
Going from 3.5 to 4 (back in the day) was a non-starter for so many reasons, not the least of which, it looked like an entirely different game. Not necessarily bad, but different. And there was no buy in from our group, either. So - Pathfinder was the perfect next step back then. Now? Noping out for a lot of the same reasons as we did from 4e 10+ years ago.
Taking anything to Reddit also runs the risk that people engage Less and Less on these Boards, and more on others...until there isn't anyone left to discuss anything HERE.
Have you taken a look at Paizo.com's Alexa ratings and trajectory over the last few months? Really, we want people coming here - to voice opinions, etc - be them good, bad, controversial, etc.
On an old "What are you going to miss in 1E" thread - mine was the liveliness of the message boards - posted when Book 6 of the AP was coming out and the entire AP had a paltry 489 posts at the time (or something like that). That's not good. There are long term posters I'm used to seeing that just aren't posting anymore, it seems.
"Take it to Reddit?" Be careful what you wish for...
Zi Mishkal wrote:
For me it's both the effort to convert and the 'feel' of 2E. When I look at what some of my original characters looked like, and what they are now under PF1E, they've evolved, no doubt. 5E or PF2E seems like a devolve somehow. Just purely subjective opinion tho, I don't expect that anyone shares it.
And, Tyrant's Grasp - **if you are the GM**, check my post history - and what I now call the "Cole Deschain sidebar". I think his endgame tweak really salvages the AP for me.
Cole Deschain wrote:
As someone who was rather annoyed with the AP's endgame and result for the PC's (book 5 sidebar not withstanding) I have to say...
THIS IS GENIUS. With potential timeline advance, you might even line up the children with some special trait(s), unusual backstory, all sorts of potential RP goodness, for an upcoming future AP - and your players get a neat 'reward' in a way.
Kudos Cole, kudos!
EDIT: I'm dubbing this the "Cole Deschain" sidebar...
Zi Mishkal wrote:
I can agree with you about the 2E comments - it is significantly different from 1E which makes it pretty difficult to convert. Back during the playtest, I mentioned that the migration to 3.0 was helped a lot by the conversion guide put out by WotC - but PF2E was just too different, I thought, for a meaningful guide to be made.
The ADnD2E to 3.0 Conversion Guide DID provide a lot more mathematical conversions, like 18(00) Strength = 23 in new system, etc, etc (don't quote me on the exact numbers, going from memory). So, I have to disagree with you there. Using that guide, I was able to migrate my Dnd 2E characters to 3.0 fairly easily. So, over the years, I've moved characters from White Box -> 1E -> 2E -> 3.0/3.5 -> Pathfinder. Tried doing that for Pathfinder 2E and frankly, hit a wall (a wall not unlike trying to go 3.0/3.5 -> 4E). If a new system deviates too much from the previous, conversion becomes more and more problematic.
For those of us that like to run persistent worlds (my current one is 35 yrs old) and also try to keep some verisimilitude across editions - radical changes just aren't good. That was one reason going to 4th Ed wasn't in the cards for me - I couldn't make it feel like DnD for me. So, when me and my group found Pathfinder, we loved it and went all in - and converting our 3.5 characters over was a breeze. Pathfinder 2E is different enough that I if I do choose to migrate (a lot of work) not only is that system on the table as an option, but so is 5E. But, much more likely, I will use some variant of the P6/P8/Px type of rules with Pathfinder 1E and choose a power level I'm comfortable with. Added advantage now is that I'll have a set of 1E rules that won't be seeing much more development/change (unless 3p guys really jump on doing 1e support and add some really compelling content).
EDIT - if I was going to 2E, I think this Guide is certainly helpful and while it does mention you may need to ad-lib more than a few things, there is enough crunch to make it useful. I hope Paizo updates it going forward as they release new 2E content/classes/etc. Some of us might not be 2E folks now, but down the road, once it's fleshed out with a few more products? I hope they look at this Conversion Guide as a living document and update/expand it as more content is created.
I think that the last few AP's have gone steadily downhill too, but my disappointment with the AP's escalated and started right around the time of the 2E announcement.
War for the Crown - I really liked the vast majority of this one. But with the 2E announcement coming out the Player's Guide was seemingly delayed until something like Book 3. That tempered my enthusiasm, frankly. For me, the glaring oddness to the AP
Spoiler:Opportunity lost, I think, for a more interesting AP.
was that we go from a potential civil war to all of Taldor uniting behind the "tragic prince" with little in the way of solid explanation (other than a couple of throw away lines of text to justify it).
Return of the Runelords - hey, it's Runelords! Awesome! Alaznist is the lead baddie though.
Spoiler:I get it, I guess, she's slated for 2E - so, it's Mary Sue makeover time for her. Fun to deal with Runelords, but disappointing that the two big names - one is neutered down in power, the other is pretty much off the table.
Xanderghul gets ganked off stage and there is a lesser version of him to deal with. Huh. Sorshen, the other powerhouse - co-opting the party and almost becoming that annoying DMPC - doesn't look like the group will be dealing with her.
Tyrant's Grasp - I would have thought the finale to 1E would have been much better than window dressing Golarion for 2E. You could play it for the sake of playing *something*, but what's the real point? Imagine doing Wrath of the Righteous, with a perma-TPK waiting at the end, and you don't even get to close the Worldwound with your sacrifice. That's Tyrant's Grasp. Another poster in another thread summed it up perfectly - Paizo was too attached to their NPC to let it be truly defeated.
I really think that Paizo was so focused on 2E that 1E became "this thing we need to wrap up" and the AP's reflect this.
Return of the Runelords for Sorshen - multiple volumes of that AP.
Tyrant's Grasp, Book 6 - Finale for 1E Dev entries and Nocticula's listing as a Goddess.
Sorshen's new look might be best described as sultry but tasteful in the artwork. Nocticula in Book 6 Tyrants Grasp? Ewww - one of the worst renditions (clothes or no) I've seen for her. Not a fan of that artwork at all. It's just plain bad.
All purely subjective, obviously. And nothing to do with the original purpose of the thread.
Well, unless Paizo has released something that addresses this specifically, I think you are pretty much stuck with RAI.
Keep in mind that the last little bit of Mythic that showed up - Psychic casters were able to designate if they wanted to be Divine or Arcane, and then the appropriate Mythic stuff would apply. So, it would not be unreasonable to assume Inspired Spell can cast Spirit Spells.
Consider - Shaman Spirit Magic regarding those Spirit Spells:"She adds the spells granted by that spirit to the list of spells that she can cast using spirit magic." AND "She can choose these spells from the list of spells granted by her spirits (see the spirit class feature and the wandering spirit class feature) at the time she casts them."
So, in my mind those spells clearly show up on the Shaman's Divine spell list, and thus, should be usable for Inspired Spell.
Just my 2 cents.
Mark the Wise and Powerful wrote:
Right there with you, even down to the ADnD 1980's references (I started with the 3 booklet White Box set).
Going forward? While I lament the loss of future AP's (I dropped my AP subscription), I figure that I can always follow the 2E discussions of each AP - likely lots of tips/hints/etc at where the future AP's are going to take Golarion - and use those as inspiration for homebrew adventures. I have no interest in trying to convert 2E back to 1E, and have so much 1E material, I can pretty much use what I have for the rest of my life. Each person's iteration of Golarion will be unique - and the end of the 1E line doesn't necessarily have to mean that your Golarion has to be frozen in time too.
I see the advent of 2E being just like the "Time of Troubles" (and other such) when WotC does Edition Changes. All the AP's are assumed to be completed going into the 2E version of Golarion. Great if you want to "reboot the franchise" but useless if you still want that uncertainty of playing through a 1E AP and letting the result impact your version of Golarion (well, at least if you have a persistent world and don't run AP's in isolation). There are AP's I still want to run, and have the result impact my version of the world, without regard for what will be 2E canon going forward.
Hello Paizo Customer service!
I previously requested that I finish off the 1st Edition AP and did not want the follow on item (#145 Hellknight Hill).
However, it was added to my order when I was alerted to the pending order today via email. Please REMOVE #145 Hellknight Hill from my order but KEEP #144 Midwives to Death.
AFter #144 has shipped you can cancel my subscription (which I think was already confirmed now).
Used a feather token (tree) placed dead center of a railway track once, right before a bridge over a very high chasm and timed so the train couldn't slow down enough to save itself...
Then the item was banned... :-(
I always liked turning a cow into a goldfish. Well, a herd of cows into goldfish.
Then taking them to a tavern and sponsoring a goldfish swallowing contest.
Dispel Magic and/or death of the polymorphed critter (usually via acid damage in the stomach) would, at least back in previous editions, cause the creature to revert back to original size.
Making for quite the Alien-esque "cowpocalypse" in the tavern.
Ouch on the toxic GM's - that's rough.
Book 5 does have a sidebar - though it's still not quite enough, I don't think. I was thinking that if there has to be a sacrifice, maybe just one of the PC's is all it would take...might make for a more interesting ending from a player perspective.
I'm vaguely reminded of an old picture of the three surviving members of what was probably a 10 member team toasting their fallen comrades at the end of Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Maybe something like that - you just need one pure soul to make the sacrifice.
And then future Golarion highschools can bear the PC's name, or something, as a tribute...
And for context you seem to completely conflate dying with losing. It’s not. The goal of the AP is to stop Tar-Baphon.
Actually, I believe the goal of the AP is to merely set TB back on heels for a while - we already know that in 2E, the 1E paths are presumed to be completed (successfully) and oh, what's this? Tar-Barphon is one of the new setting big baddies?
TB is still around after all the events of this AP. The players in this AP don't get to finish him off - they don't STOP TB, rather, they just slow him down and deny him his fancy nuke.
The goal of the AP, I firmly believe is:
Set the table for what Golarion 2E is going to look like. And that's pretty much it.
Just seems that it's getting quieter and quieter here. I mean, we are about to release Book 6 of Tyrant's Grasp and the entire AP has a underwhelming 439 posts as I write this. I would have thought folks would have been all over these AP's - Return of the Runelords and then Tar-Barphon? Like, where is everybody?
I'm starting to miss the liveliness of the message boards, TBH.
I'm really going to be interested to see how they write up the "what if the PC's fail" bit that is usually part of the last installment.
We already KNOW what happens if they succeed (2E pretty much gives that away).
As for "survival horror", I think somewhere along the way they forgot about the "survival" part.
I'd kinda be surprised if heroic sacrifice was the only option without some sort of "If PCs do things well, they can survive" thing since lot of APs have victory conditions were you get better result if you did better :p
Prepare to be surprised - the PC's future is bleak indeed. As Franz mentions above - there is a sidebar option suggested - but as written? All roads lead to some distinct unpleasantness.
I have to agree with Marco's comments - not a good design at all - unless you have player buy-in from the get go.
Of course, we'll have to wait until Book 6 to see how this all plays out - but I wonder - will the feedback loop that blows up Tar Baphon require ALL the obols embedded in the PC's? Or just some? Or what about just one?
Requiring an entire party wipe to end the AP "successfully" seems a bit of a stretch to ask of your players. I mean, you don't even kill off Tar Baphon, just set him back a bunch. Leaves an unsatisfactory taste in my mouth, frankly.
Now, if it just takes 1/4 to do the job - AND you apply GM fiat via the sidebar mentioned in Book 5 (wherein you, as GM, offer up a future resurrection for the sacrificed folk(s)), maybe it would work.
What bothers me about the design is the default seems to be leading the PC's to a perma-death at the end of the AP. I guess that's one way to retire high levels, but not one, as a player, I'm going to appreciate.
If I was a PC, right about the end of part 2 of the installment I'd be kinda pissed...
PC prospects going forward into Book 6 look bleak indeed.
So - just so I'm clear - the endgame for the PC's is to sacrifice themselves to create a feedback loop that blows up Tar Baphon and ends his ability to use Radiant Fire. However, given he's a lich (and what we already know about 2E so far...) he is coming back, just without his superweapon. And that's the goal of the AP, in a nutshell?
Effectively, from a metagame perspective admittedly, the PC's get to perma-death themselves in order to set the table for how Golarion 2E is going to look. At least the devs had the foresight to put in a sidebar suggesting the helpful NPC can arrange something for PC resurrection sometime in the future, after they've heroically sacrificed themselves. Gee, thanks for that.
What I eagerly await now is the "what if the PC's fail" outlines that typically show up in Book 6 of the AP's. This kind of 'ultimate sacrifice' might work ok in some groups, but I know groups that would take the boon (having their obols recalibrated to positive energy), and head for the hills.
Yup, Marco called it - and just wait until you read Book 5 of Tyrants Grasp...we learn pretty much what's in store, and the endgame goal, for the PC's.
And without a certain sidebar kicking into play via GM fiat, frankly, the endgame kinda sucks. Hoping, but not optimistic, about how Book 6 plays out. Seems more of a "hey, lets set Golarion up for 2E, finale" rather than ending the 1E Adventure Paths on a high note.
Run the encounter as planned. Start with Bill and the NPC's - giving the lone PC the chance to consider various courses of action.
If the assassins look as buff as you say they are, their swift and brutal execution of the NPC's should be a clear warning for the lone PC that he try to escape (or die).
It's a flying ship - if I was that lone PC, first thing I'm doing is jumping off this flying death trap when I get wind that an Alpha Strike of Assassins is on board.
Now, if aforementioned PC doesn't actually have a snapleaf or other method to survive a 20d6 plummet to the ground (when they own a flying ship...), I'd say, kill away. And let the lesson sink in...
I know Mythic doesn't have a lot of love - but for something like a Dragon, even 1 or 2 Mythic ranks could help even the odds.
I'm thinking that with even a single rank, you can add Dual Initiative to the critter - which would make for a nasty surprise even for a seasoned group of players (if they weren't expecting it).
At 2nd rank: Dual Initiative (feat) + Amazing Initiative (2nd rank ability) (plus rebuild the Dragon with Improved Initiative (regular feat) and Mythic Improved Initiative (mythic feat)) and suddenly, you've got yourself quite a powered up Dragon.
Well, DrDeth's cliche party literally predates 1st Edition - no thief in the old White Box, 3 booklet setup - I think thieves showed up with the Greyhawk supplement that came later.
Nice call out to the early days, DrDeth!
Make Heirophant your main choice, and dual path into Champion for damage (you can max your damage on a crit, etc - tons of damage dealing choices here). If going full on 10 mythic ranks, the DR 10/- that Heirophant gets is pretty solid capstone (plus other goodies too).
Inspired Spell - think about what you might be able to do if you go with a multiple ranks in Divine Source (Universal Path ability starting at rank 3) as well as having your Inquisitor spells ready as needed? The flexibility is huge.
Perhaps she can pull a Mao-style Cultural Revolution and force the artists to become farmers....?
But, that might lead to a rather high body count, and subsequent slide back into Evil, so Tippy-style it is! Or, trade art for food...the Hold of Belkzan is starved for art, the orcs yearning for post-modern art pieces knows no bounds....
Let's hope Arazni isn't the next candidate for redemption, then. I haven't read Tyrant's Grasp but if the trend you're describing continues, she'll probably be next. :p
Oh, I bet we are in for some new lore about Arazni come 2E...with the events of Tyrant's Grasp as the catalyst.
Also, as Erudite Malefactor opined, there seems to be a "type" and Arazni fits the description, for the most part. Pure conjucture, obviously.
I'd have been much happier if they left them "as is", frankly. It's as if all these powerful evil entities cut from some "specific cloth" keep getting Mary Sue Makeovers.
Maybe Paizo can throw me a bone and have Iomedae fall from grace and takeover for Nocticula...
I vaguely remember a neutral chromatic dragon mentioned somewhere (I forget what color and which neutral alignment).
Ok, despite some entertaining discussions on eugenics, here's a possibility:
Olohimba (a green) worships Pharasma. Pathfinderwiki doesn't list an alignment (which they do for almost all the other dragons they have cataloged). With Pharasma being Neutral, we might have one serious contender for a "neutral' Chromatic dragon w/Olohimba.
Hermea humans are bestest humans!
Mengkare did nothing wrong!
Better breeding through genetic manipulation is a great pastime, especially when you've got a long, long lifespan. It's Good because it's for the Greater Good. And it's Good to be Good. All Gold Dragons know that. If you aren't with them, you aren't Good. And if you aren't Good...well, Dragons have to eat too.
Mengkare/Hermea - "Building better people for a brighter future."
(defectives will be disposed of...often with a delicious sauce suitable for a Dragon's refined palate.)
So, don't think I've seen this one...but I wasn't reading too closely...
Use a Heightened and Extended Mount spell to fire off a really high level version of the spell for your horse.
Then cast Alter Summoned Monster and flip said horse (and it's very long duration) for something from the appropriate Summon Monster level.
Day long+ summoned monster to do your bidding. The higher you can Heighten the Mount spell, the crazier the options for Alter Summoned Monster...
EDIT: adding a couple of links:
Dave Justus wrote:
Hmnnn - Nice catch, I stand corrected - one might argue that the second casting produces a differing result given the change in the wind in the area (from the first casting), but I'd pretty much be inclined to rule that it's two or more identical spells operating in the same area, as you suggest.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Ah well, the strategy is still sound - just wait for a breezy/windy day, and then hit the army with it to escalate to tornado level wind force.
Alternately, if they can find a way to boost it past caster level 10, you can pretty much go from calm day to tornado in one go. But you need a bit more caster levels to pull it off.
Control Winds - Druid / Shaman level 5
At 10th level: 400' radius = 800' diameter (reasonable if the army is in tight formations). Keep the eye of the storm small.
First casting, assuming no wind, boosts the wind levels. Second/Third castings you can bring it all the way up to a Tornado level event - That should pretty much kill off the vast majority of those caught within it.
Find a way to sneak it into a Greater Glyph of Warding (Shaman could pull it off) and create some glyph bombs.
Ok - so whether your agree or disagree w/Gorbacz, he did manage to describe some of my own gaming moments. Looking at that XP column and thinking "next session, if I don't get killed, I'll make the next level". It put myself and my players always a bit on edge right before leveling...there was excitement, sense of danger, etc. It was fun! Also - if you died, especially back in earlier editions, we house ruled loss of xp rather than a Con point - which just added to the tension as you closed in on your next milestone.
That being said, from a more story driven perspective, I'd love to run an AP without worrying about XP, and doing it Magnuskn's way. I'd like players to worry less about xp harvesting, and more about the storyline - so, maybe the murder-hobos DON'T have to clobber everything in their path just to garner the holy grail of XP.
Varun Creed wrote:
So did I. Can someone post a link? ;-)