Where is the Arcane Strike qualification coming from? I believe earlier today Mark replied to a question stating that the Kineticist SLAs do NOT qualify you for Arcane Strike. That would cut a piece out of the damage totals.I took Arcane Strike out of the comparison. If Mark said it doesn't count, then hey... I'm not sure why the spell-like abilities don't count. That's beyond my pay grade! :-)
I also fixed Feel the Burn to be +2/+2 at 6th instead of the +1/+1 carryover from levels 3 to 5. Thanks!
It doesn't count as a prereq because it isn't arcane, it's psychic.
So Mark, quick question! Is the Occult Adventures playtest going to be a single draft or multi draft format?
Like should we expect a new draft of the document before Nov. 24th?
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While dependent on the CR, I have a PF bestiary with statistics (it is on my other computer at home) that has information on resistances of enemies. Something like 14% of enemies at CR 8 have an average Fire Resistance of 10 while another almost 10% have immunity and it only increases in potncy and frequency with time. Sure the Pyrokineticist can get expanded element for more blasts but it's been shown how badly the non-touch blasts pale compared to archery. Just food for thought. :D
I will say that Eram the hydrokineticist, who has over 100 hours of playtest in Skull and Shackles and has so far been a major badass, uses the current playtest build of kineticist.I'm beginning to wonder if Mark isn't being all 'sneaky sneaky' and gave us an intentionally underpowered version of the Kineticist to see if we can't buff and break it in ways he didn't expect. Meanwhile, he's keeping the full powered one all to himself and running that one through his spreadsheets and stuff and tweaking it based off the playtest.
It would be a sneaky and yet, brilliant move.
To be fair, comparing all of the variants, the Hydrokineticist is also the most versatile and has the most utility on top of it's blast.
I would also question the 100 hours of playtesting to ask how much of that is actual mechanics of combat and of the remainder, what actually does he do? Not being snarky, but the class seems significantly lacking in the out of combat anything department.
It's Skull and Shackles, so without getting into major spoilers, his two top holy crap awesome noncombat factors have been cleaning the bilge faster than people thought someone with his physique could do and being awesome at drinking contests. He's gotten about as much out-of-combat stuff as the other characters, except the captain because she's the captain.
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Let's see... A fairly optimized 10th-level Kineticist could have...
Dwarf Aero-Kineticist 10:
Str 7 Dex 18 Con 22 Int 13 Wis 16 Cha 5
His to-hit with an Air Blast is... +7 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Weapon Focus (if applicable) +1 Bracers of Falcon's Aim +1 Point-blank Shot
That's +14. Damage is 5d6+11.
He needs to suffer 3 points of non-healable damage just to have the same accuracy of a Warrior. Another 2 or 3 if he wants to compensate for his lack of weapon enhancement bonuses.
So... That's 6 non-healable damage per turn. 5 if he uses an move action. To attack once. From 30ft. While provoking AoO.
Am I missing something? Because if this is really underwhelming.
So Mark, quick question! Is the Occult Adventures playtest going to be a single draft or multi draft format?
Like should we expect a new draft of the document before Nov. 24th?
As the playtest mentions, don't expect a second draft. However, it is possible that there will be one for some of the classes.
I will say that you have been doing great for this class so far, my kineticist brethren. We have been present in 100% of all the posted playtests so far (even the Occultist one had a kineticist), and you guys have given the most in-depth theorycrafting as well. Right now we have more posts on kineticist than the other 5 classes combined! With that in mind, I fully suspect that you will have given me the perfect tools I need by the end of the first month, so if there is a second phase, I think it's unlikely to have kineticist (that way we can get more data for the other classes). But that's only based on these first few days. A lot can change in a month!
Let's see... A fairly optimized 10th-level Kineticist could have...
Dwarf Aero-Kineticist 10:
Str 7 Dex 18 Con 22 Int 13 Wis 16 Cha 5
His to-hit with an Air Blast is... +7 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Weapon Focus (if applicable) +1 Bracers of Falcon's Aim +1 Point-blank Shot
That's +14. Damage is 5d6+11.
He needs to suffer 3 points of non-healable damage just to have the same accuracy of a Warrior. Another 2 or 3 if he wants to compensate for his lack of weapon enhancement bonuses.
So... That's 6 damage per turn. 5 if she uses an move action. To attack once. From 30ft. While provoking AoO.
Am I missing something? Because if this is really underwhelming.
I am not certain based on your post, but I think you're missing that feel the burn is active for the rest of the day once you spent that much burn once. You don't need to spend the burn each round to get the bonus.
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I am not certain based on your post, but I think you're missing that feel the burn is active for the rest of the day once you spent that much burn once. You don't need to spend the burn each round to get the bonus.Let's see... A fairly optimized 10th-level Kineticist could have...
Dwarf Aero-Kineticist 10:
Str 7 Dex 18 Con 22 Int 13 Wis 16 Cha 5
His to-hit with an Air Blast is... +7 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Weapon Focus (if applicable) +1 Bracers of Falcon's Aim +1 Point-blank Shot
That's +14. Damage is 5d6+11.
He needs to suffer 3 points of non-healable damage just to have the same accuracy of a Warrior. Another 2 or 3 if he wants to compensate for his lack of weapon enhancement bonuses.
So... That's 6 damage per turn. 5 if she uses an move action. To attack once. From 30ft. While provoking AoO.
Am I missing something? Because if this is really underwhelming.
Right, but his self damage was off, at level 10 the damage he would be taking is 10 points per point of burn, so 3 burn to max out his potential Feel the Burn for his level would be 30 points of unhealable damage. If he never used Burn again for the day.
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It doesn't count as a prereq because it isn't arcane, it's psychic.Really?? Wow... I don't like that precedence, I confess.
All those monsters in the bestiary that have spell-like abilties when a goodly amount should be "psychic" but are mostly all are arcane. That is the precendence I think should be followed.
Aahhh well.. thanks for the info!
There is the notification of the difference in Arcane, Divine and now Psychic scrolls as well. It makes sense, however, I just hope that with this book they actually make a clear effort to ensure everything is backwards compatible and any things, such as Arcane Strike here, are addressed... so we don't have more cases of divine charisma based casters being forced to use wisdom for certain spells simply because they are from an earlier source and a simple adjustment statement was not included in the new book.
So Mark, quick question! Is the Occult Adventures playtest going to be a single draft or multi draft format?
Like should we expect a new draft of the document before Nov. 24th?
As the playtest mentions, don't expect a second draft. However, it is possible that there will be one for some of the classes.
I will say that you have been doing great for this class so far, my kineticist brethren. We have been present in 100% of all the posted playtests so far (even the Occultist one had a kineticist), and you guys have given the most in-depth theorycrafting as well. Right now we have more posts on kineticist than the other 5 classes combined! With that in mind, I fully suspect that you will have given me the perfect tools I need by the end of the first month, so if there is a second phase, I think it's unlikely to have kineticist (that way we can get more data for the other classes). But that's only based on these first few days. A lot can change in a month!
After all this theory crafting I think it's pretty obvious where perceived strengths and weaknesses of the class are located. Play testing will find out for us whether these are just non-applicable theory or legitimate issues.
If you don't mind could you post what you consider to be the strengths and weaknesses of the class and what you want the strengths and weaknesses of the class to be so that we can all be on the same page in terms of your intent? A post containing that would probably be best timed for the last week of playtest since it requires quite a bit of feedback to determine the viability of the document.
I would love to see abilities that stop projectiles like stopping a hale of harrows with telekinesis or barriers of air, earth, fire, or water that blocks, deflects, or destroys such projectiles.
I would like to see an ability that lets you bypass energy resistance and do half damage vs immunity.
I think if you have control of fire, you should be able to put it out as well start it.
I think the ability to control a creature through it's blood, like bloodbending, would be awesome.
I think all elements should have options at level 1 to control there element not including there blast abilities.
I think Aether should get telekinesis at build into the class or at least much easier to get all it's abilities.
I would love to see more crowd control and utility based abilities for each element.
I would love to see a choice wich stat you base your powers, if not built into the class then through various archetypes.
I would love better skill points and bigger selection of class skills.
A lot more abilities that function like existing spells such as fly, levitate, move earth, transmute mud to rock/rock to mud, control winds, gust of wind, light, daylight, wall of ice, wall of fire, etc.
...
That said, if anyone can find a build that is outperforming a topped-out fighter archer without spending burn, please let me know so I can make some adjustments. It is my intention that such a build should not exist. That gives me lots of wiggle room for more cool utility stuff, skills, and that kind of fun stuff!I have to say I love the Kineticist.
However I don't expect one to be a DPR king by any means.
Yup! I just wanted to make sure to let everyone know that it was my express intention that we're not going to be doing more than the archer, thus giving breathing room for cool powers. If we do actually do more through some combination I didn't think of, then it's something to address!
Design Manager
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But since the Kineticist can target Touch AC you will see a huge swing in DPR in favor of the Kineticist.
Level 6: Fighter - Many Shot
Archer: +11/+11/+11/+6 4x 1d8+12
Kineticist: +11 (3d6+3)*150%+8The archer is doing 3d8+36 (average 50) damage at +11 to hit to the kineticists 30 average damage at +11 to hit. The archer also has that +6 to hit attack hanging about PLUS a hasted attack potential.
I might have made a typo error, but it should be the correct ballpark. The kineticist is so far behind in ranged raw damage... you have a LOT of room for "more cool utility stuff, skills, and that kind of fun stuff!"
Which is promptly negated when you factor in resistances, DR, criticals, etc. Accurate DPR projections are never even remotely close to being in the Kineticist's favor after the first couple levels. The class seems like it's an all day combat caster, but isn't actually that good at it. It also suffers from being so tied to its element that a single bad choice at character creation can make you useless for a fair stretch of the game (like bringing a pyrokineticist or even aerokineticist to the table and then finding out that the bulk of your opponents are tieflings and/or demons). 7th level is way too late in the game to finally be able to pick up an attack that actually works.
I think my biggest (remaining) issue is that the class has an astonishingly mediocre combat performance threshold which is supposedly making room for skill and utility facility that aren't reflected in the playtest document so far.
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Yup! I just wanted to make sure to let everyone know that it was my express intention that we're not going to be doing more than the archer, thus giving breathing room for cool powers. If we do actually do more through some combination I didn't think of, then it's something to address!...
That said, if anyone can find a build that is outperforming a topped-out fighter archer without spending burn, please let me know so I can make some adjustments. It is my intention that such a build should not exist. That gives me lots of wiggle room for more cool utility stuff, skills, and that kind of fun stuff!I have to say I love the Kineticist.
However I don't expect one to be a DPR king by any means.
Yes but, he is not only not doing more than an archer, he is so far not even matching an archer.
I think that is part of the confusion (frustration?) here. Many of us are wondering what exactly the perceived niche for this class is.
It is one thing to test a class and say, "It does this", but it is a more informative test to test a class against a set of parameters so you can say, "It does this and performs at xxx level compared to yyy class in this regard, while falling behind zzz class here and exceeds the expectations of aaa class when in this situation".
Hints at ideas are great, however, we as testers can only test what we have and you don't get accurate results if you don't know the actual boundaries of the testing environment.
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It's not as if the exsisting archers don't have good utility either. Every class of archer has non-damage options. Rangers track, skill, cast and have animal companions.
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Well, the Fighter archer is pretty limited to only damage... as the Fighter is another class with long suffering design flaws, namely in terms of skills and secondary utility... so a comparison between them and the Kineticist seems the most direct.
If you throw in the Ranger with it's spells, AC and additional abilities, it completely upsets the apple cart.
How long does Kinetic Cover last?
I would also like to see energy resistance against your element. Aether could be resistance to force, which would be interesting or some other defense like DR.
I would like an AC boost of some kind built into the class.
Would like a water ability to grant a swim speed.
A burn point system and once your out of your limited number points then take non-lethal damage and/or ailments like confusion, shaken, daze, fatigue, etc..
A physical and touch blast options from the start at level one. Though I can't think of one for fire.
Ability to make your blast a line or cone at 1st level.
Blast range starts at 30', but increases in range with level by 10' at 3rd and every 2 levels after to a max 120'.
More healing abilities maybe earth can grant fast healing while you are touching the ground or the ability to be healed by your energy type at high levels. Aslo improved versions of kinetic healing.
Some bonus feats would be awesome.
Ability to sense the presence of creatures(as blindsight) with an elemental subtype the same as your element. Aether might sense constructs, incorporeal creatures or something else.
It's not as if the exsisting archers don't have good utility either. Every class of archer has non-damage options. Rangers track, skill, cast and have animal companions.
Agreed.
Ranger, Slayer, Paladin, Bard, Calvalier/Samurai, Warpriest, and Hunter all have very strong archer builds while having a large amount of Utility. In particular Paladins, Rangers, and Slayers have some of the highest DPR while also having loads of HP, utility out the wazoo, and the ability to become a switch hitter by simply taking power attack. Bards, Hunters, and Warpriests also have fairly powerful archery builds that are more in line with the DPR of the Kineticist, but are also 6th level casters. In the case of Hunters and Bards they have great skill use and other class features for utility purposes such as the animal companion and Performance. Warpriests get one of the best prepared caster spell lists and can turn empty spell slots into useful scrolls as well as a lot of Clerics.
Fighter and Zen Archer Monks weren't included in the list because they had less utility.
Maybe the point in comparison we should be using for Kineticist is the Bard Archer? The Kineticist would make the most sense with DPR higher than the Bard Archer and Utility lower than the Bard Archer.
I kind of wish that Pyrokineticists could use Deadly Aim to up their damage a bit, but the feat specifically calls out that it can't be used with touch attacks.
Mark, what do you think of the idea of taking a page from the gunslinger and making an exception that allows Kineticists of all types use Deadly Aim, and not just the standard AC targeting ones? (at least I think Gunslingers can use deadly aim...)
Well, the Fighter archer is pretty limited to only damage... as the Fighter is another class with long suffering design flaws, namely in terms of skills and secondary utility... so a comparison between them and the Kineticist seems the most direct.
If you throw in the Ranger with it's spells, AC and additional abilities, it completely upsets the apple cart.
Fighters get ranged combat maneuvers and enough combat feats to do archery and something other than archery.
Mark, what about combining two Composite into a great composite? Limitation being that they must share an element.
So an air/fire composite could combine with any composite using either air or fire, like an air/earth or a fire/fire.
Mark, what about combining two Composite into a great composite? Limitation being that they must share an element.
So an air/fire composite could combine with any composite using either air or fire, like an air/earth or a fire/fire.
Right now, there does exist one "great composite", using aetheric boost. Metal with aetheric boost and a few others do the most damage, pre meta.
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I will say that Eram the hydrokineticist, who has over 100 hours of playtest in Skull and Shackles and has so far been a major badass, uses the current playtest build of kineticist.I'm beginning to wonder if Mark isn't being all 'sneaky sneaky' and gave us an intentionally underpowered version of the Kineticist to see if we can't buff and break it in ways he didn't expect. Meanwhile, he's keeping the full powered one all to himself and running that one through his spreadsheets and stuff and tweaking it based off the playtest.
It would be a sneaky and yet, brilliant move.
Mark, I have a concern regarding this. The first, is that from what I (and it seems most others) can see, Water is BY FAR the best element in the current play test rules. Combined with the fact S&S features mostly humanoids as opponents (very few of which feature resistances from my memories), it could be skewing you're results.
I have been trying to build a Level 7 Melee GeoKinetic for like 4 hours, and honestly, I keep running into a "Pay-Wall" of Burn that seems impossible to overcome.
I might just be building at an odd level, but using my "Big Gun" hits me with a massive 5 Burn in one round! (Empowered, Metal Whip Attack). Now, granted, that's me going Nova. But unlike, say, a Magus, If I miss with that attack (And as a Geo Im targeting FULL AC with a +11) I'm eating 35 non-lethal damage (In addition to the likely 14 im carrying from Flesh of Stone), and I can't try again.
Geo's really need some type of love.
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Fighters get ranged combat maneuvers and enough combat feats to do archery and something other than archery.Well, the Fighter archer is pretty limited to only damage... as the Fighter is another class with long suffering design flaws, namely in terms of skills and secondary utility... so a comparison between them and the Kineticist seems the most direct.
If you throw in the Ranger with it's spells, AC and additional abilities, it completely upsets the apple cart.
Agreed, however, outside of an attack roll of some sort, be it damage or maneuver, a Fighter brings little to the table, so it is the most "fair" comparison to the Kineticist as is.
Same low Skill points
Entire ability set based on direct damage.
Minimal non combat utility.
Limited non damage in combat utility.
Only the Fighter has better to hit, better health, better AC in most cases, and better bonuses that don't cause self inflicted damage.
The other archer types either have more skills, more utility, more special abilities or improved attack benefits that just put them in another league from the Kineticicst as currently written.
I will say that Eram the hydrokineticist, who has over 100 hours of playtest in Skull and Shackles and has so far been a major badass, uses the current playtest build of kineticist.I'm beginning to wonder if Mark isn't being all 'sneaky sneaky' and gave us an intentionally underpowered version of the Kineticist to see if we can't buff and break it in ways he didn't expect. Meanwhile, he's keeping the full powered one all to himself and running that one through his spreadsheets and stuff and tweaking it based off the playtest.
It would be a sneaky and yet, brilliant move.
Mark, I have a concern regarding this. The first, is that from what I (and it seems most others) can see, Water is BY FAR the best element in the current play test rules. Combined with the fact S&S features mostly humanoids as opponents (very few of which feature resistances from my memories), it could be skewing you're results.
I have been trying to build a Level 7 Melee GeoKinetic for like 4 hours, and honestly, I keep running into a "Pay-Wall" of Burn that seems impossible to overcome.
I might just be building at an odd level, but using my "Big Gun" hits me with a massive 5 Burn in one round! (Empowered, Metal Whip Attack). Now, granted, that's me going Nova. But unlike, say, a Magus, If I miss with that attack (And as a Geo Im targeting FULL AC with a +11) I'm eating 35 non-lethal damage (In addition to the likely 14 im carrying from Flesh of Stone), and I can't try again.
Geo's really need some type of love.
Is your infusion specialization not form? Next level you can get form again and then your lovely whip will be free! Free I say! (note: just the whip will be free, not the metal empower)
Yup it's form. I forgot to mention that was employing Rare earth as well (My bad). Considering that Rare Earth is one of the "Selling Points" of the Geo, I thought it was fair to include it.
Added Move action Reduction
Edit to Add Math:
Whip 2 Burn (-1)
Metal 2 Burn
Rare Earth 2 Burn
Total 5 Burn
Move Action -1 Burn
New Total 4 Burn (28 Non Lethal)
Melee Geo is Sad Geo
Suggestion: Make Rare Earth cost 1 burn to replicate Silver/Cold Iron, with an additional +1 Burn if used for Adamantine.
Quick (probably silly) question. Would all of the blasts work under water?
Also a talent suggestion while I'm here. Perhaps a greater earth sight? Essentially it stays on all the time or requires a swift or immediate action? Then one could more feasibly play a blind character, albeit needing to use a kineticist to do so. But still awesome IMO.
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Looking at some of the AoE effects possible, such as Sharding, Cyclone, Explosion, the saves are all "Dexterity based". Why is that when the save DCs and other effects are based on Constitution? While I understand that the person trying to avoid the blast is relying on their dexterity, why is the blast itself being based on the Kineticists dexterity?
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So, I tried today building some kineticist NPCs to fight the PCs in my group. I had a chance to take the adventure to some elemental themed places and a graveyard themed demiplane. In this game we have: an elven paladin, a human witch, a dwarven inquisitor, an elven ranger, a halfling druid, a samsaran oracle, and a human barbarian. All of them are 15th level, 25p buy and reasonably equiped for their level.
I made 7 kineticist NPCs for each encounter, with no magic items (it was not the intent to provide material rewards for those encounters) but with persistent magical effects that provided the same bonus as standard equipment for their level. They all were made with the same 25p buy and 15th level.
The fights ended quickly, as the NPCs had little protection from the PCs attacks. First I used pyrokineticists, each one going after one PC. That didn't go well for the poor pyros. Lack of will made them easy targets for the witch and the oracle, lack of AC made them die quickly from attacks.
At the second, I used hydrokineticists and changed tactics. They concentrated blasts into one PC at a time, managing to to kill the witch (that returned shortly after receiving a breath of life). While the fight lasted a bit longer, I felt the same issues although they avoided more attacks.
Air and earth had similar results, the DR didn't help against their magical weaponry, and although I tried using cover and distance to protect them, the PCs quickly caught up. Telekinesis made some fun moments as the PCs were bombarded with tombstones, but also not very challenging.
From this test I noticed some things:
1-This class is made for combat, but lacks survivability. The need for a free hand together with light armor makes a lousy AC. Also, withe they had some pretty decent Fort save, My NPCs had horrible Will saves. I had to spent their points in Con, Dex and Int (to have some minimum skills, like acrobatics, sense motive, and perception). I wanted them to make some amazing defenses in immediate actions, it would belong there.
2-They did good damage, similar to other classes, but had to take an awful lot of burn. It was good for one encounter, but if they had not died, they would have had a hell of a day from that point on, crippled by permanent damage. That said, if burn were recovered on a encounter basis, things could go better.
3-I wanted more feats to build them. Some bonus feats would be welcome, and not by far overpowering. While they were made for combat, they had no utility options (as they were never supposed to live to use them) But it felt like the number of wild talents was right for combat. I would create a separate pool for utility talents.
4-Their attacks made quite a visual effect. More options of area attacks and multiple attacks would be welcome.
Conclusion: The class has a beautiful concept, can grow much in power and still be balanced. There is ample room for swift and immediate actions talents, and some combat improvements.
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Mark, I have a concern regarding this. The first, is that from what I (and it seems most others) can see, Water is BY FAR the best element in the current play test rules. Combined with the fact S&S features mostly humanoids as opponents (very few of which feature resistances from my memories), it could be skewing your results.
I'd kind of been tip-toeing around that same idea myself, but basically, Skull & Shackles is nothing like any other AP I've played. It's... weird. It's very combat light through the first book, doesn't have the breadth of creature types I'm accustomed to seeing elsewhere, and it's almost as though the Hydrokineticist was tailor made for that AP, which may give the character a "shine" that it wouldn't possess in other environments.
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OK, the wording on Impale is also a bit contradictory;
You extend a long sharp spike of elemental matter along a line, impaling multiple foes. Make a single attack roll against each creature or object in a 30' line, staring with the closest target.
OK, seems simple enough, by that wording you make an attack roll against each target in the line.
If the result is a critical threat, roll to confirm only against the first target you hit
Now it seems as if the intent was a single attack roll against ALL the targets, but a crit would only effect the first one in the line? It says if THE result is a critical threat, singular.
Just curious what the intent is there. Is it supposed to be, "Roll one attack against each single target in the line, and only the first attack can be a critical threat". Or is it "Roll a single attack to hit all of the targets in a line, and only the first target can be critically hit".?
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A couple of thoughts I have about this class, and how to really make it fun.
1. Same camp as many: Geo is the way to go none of this Terra nonsense.
2. Kinetic Fist needs a new name Elemental Body, or Kinetic Embodiment maybe.
3. Elemental Fist, Kinetic Whip, and Kinetic Blade need to be persistent effects with a rounds per level, or until dismissed duration to make them really worth it. Also give us 2 handed and double weapon form infusions.
4. Feel The Burn could be worded more clearly to indicate that the bonus is persistent until the burn is healed, and as I suggested a page or 2 ago, allow the burn bonus to act as the enhancement bonus on a weapon for purposes of overcoming DR. by 15th level we gain the ability to bypass alignment DR at an opportunity cost of 5xlevel nonlethal. I think thats pretty reasonable and will clear up any complaints about DR.
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Some baseline theory crafting makes me think this class needs some big buffs.
Relying on Feel the Burn to keep your attack on-par with a Full BAB class totally destroys the character. Average HP, unmodified by Con or other feats and abilities, subtracting max Burn for FtB:
Level 1: 8
6: 24.5
10: 18.5
16: -4.5
20: -26.5
Just some small numbers to point out that Burn should NOT be required to keep the Kineticist on par with the attack levels of other classes.
An option to do non-lethal with the blast.
An ability for earth to create crystal shards(piercing) that has additional effect like sleep, bleed, slow, etc.
Light based blast ability that blinds and does more damage to undead(especially vampires) would be awesome.
A holy blast that does extra damage vs evil outsiders. Also other aligned blast as well.
Ability to summon creatures with your blast would be nice.
Ability to create tendrils of water like the octopus defense in Avatar the Last Airbender.
Earth element ability to control plants and plant creatures.
Some divination abilities would cool like stonetell for earth, scrying/greater scrying for water, etc.
More options for unarmed and weapon abilities.
Abilty to create a 30' burst effect centered on user plus additional effects like knockback, stun, entangle, etc.
Mark: Why are you using archers as a basis for the DPR, when a gunslinger is far better at the job, with touch attacks, and has some useful utility themselves? Balancing around the fighter is generally a bad idea as is, but basing this class's damage on it seems extra problematic.
I'd kind of been tip-toeing around that same idea myself, but basically, Skull & Shackles is nothing like any other AP I've played. It's... weird. It's very combat light through the first book, doesn't have the breadth of creature types I'm accustomed to seeing elsewhere, and it's almost as though the Hydrokineticist was tailor made for that AP, which may give the character a "shine" that it wouldn't possess in other environments.
Mark, I have a concern regarding this. The first, is that from what I (and it seems most others) can see, Water is BY FAR the best element in the current play test rules. Combined with the fact S&S features mostly humanoids as opponents (very few of which feature resistances from my memories), it could be skewing your results.
Reminds me of Paladins in Carrion Crown.
There are some class examples to balance the kineticist:
The Ranger:
Combat: Full BAB, access to good all day ranged damage, that can be improved later by limited abilities (spells). Reliable in close combat and has circumstantial bonus (favored enemy).
Utility:Has lots of utility power (wild empathy, nature bond, 6 skills with wide selection, favored terrain, woodland stride, spells, etc...)
Defense: d10 HD, medium armor and shields, minor healing magic, minor protective magic, evasion and improved evasion.
The Summoner:
Combat: medium BAB, access to good all day ranged damage (the eidolon), that can be improved by limited abilities (spells). Reliable in close combat (eidolon).
Utility:Has lots of utility power (evolutions, high Cha, summoning, spells that can transport anywhere, etc...)
Defense: d8 HD, light armor, medium healing magic, good protective magic, double HP pool.
Both classes fill similar niches, providing ranged damage reliably while having flavorful features. While they can do their job all day, they can burn up /day resources to excel. Those resources, however do not reduce their power after used, so they can keep doing their regular job afterwards.
I can understand being cautious from a design point of view around a class that has many "at will" abilities, but regarding combat balance, most of the time anything past 5 encounters/ day won't matter much. So, I would suggest to give the class some new toys, no need to fear a bit more of power.
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Design Manager
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There are some class examples to balance the kineticist:
The Ranger:
Combat: Full BAB, access to good all day ranged damage, that can be improved later by limited abilities (spells). Reliable in close combat and has circumstantial bonus (favored enemy).
Utility:Has lots of utility power (wild empathy, nature bond, 6 skills with wide selection, favored terrain, woodland stride, spells, etc...)
Defense: d10 HD, medium armor and shields, minor healing magic, minor protective magic, evasion and improved evasion.The Summoner:
Combat: medium BAB, access to good all day ranged damage (the eidolon), that can be improved by limited abilities (spells). Reliable in close combat (eidolon).
Utility:Has lots of utility power (evolutions, high Cha, summoning, spells that can transport anywhere, etc...)
Defense: d8 HD, light armor, medium healing magic, good protective magic, double HP pool.Both classes fill similar niches, providing ranged damage reliably while having flavorful features. While they can do their job all day, they can burn up /day resources to excel. Those resources, however do not reduce their power after used, so they can keep doing their regular job afterwards.
I can understand being cautious from a design point of view around a class that has many "at will" abilities, but regarding combat balance, most of the time anything past 5 encounters/ day won't matter much. So, I would suggest to give the class some new toys, no need to fear a bit more of power.
Considering that they're putting out a new version of the Summoner in Pathfinder Unchained that was written specifically because the original Summoner is considered overpowered, I wouldn't expect that as a balance point.
However, the Ninja, Inquisitor, Ranger, Zen Archer, Paladin, Samurai, Gunslinger, Slayer, Hunter, and Bard all make excellent points of comparison. Pretty much all of those classes can easily match or even substantially exceed the Kineticist's DPR, while simultaneously providing other substantial benefits to the party that the Kineticist currently seems to have no answer to.