High-Impact Unlimited Hexes! The fact they could be your primary form of contribution to combat and your spells actually took a backseat to them often made the witch feel like it was more than just another Int-caster.
Eclectic but also Focused Spell List! Spooky flavor abound (Lipstitch was my favorite spell in 1e, hands down) as well as a number of different focuses that also managed to avoid being as diverse as the wizard/sorcerer.
Off-list Patron Spells! A natural addition to the last point, patron spells let you choose another area or two that your spell list didn’t naturally cover to give you extra options.
Indifferent:
Familiars. They’re pretty neat, but they also felt like a liability. I often just had my scorpion/dodo/cursed teddy bear sit in a bag or nest in my hair so it wouldn’t get targeted. This led to me often forgetting they were there other than a +4 initiative on my sheet.
Oddball Hexes. Some hexes were clearly there for flavor and no other reason. If you were to make a character who could reliably use their hexes, you generally didn’t take stuff like cauldron or coven.
Dislike:
On-list Patron Spells? These always bugged me. A number of Witch Patrons gave you mostly spells already on your spell list, which always felt like a waste. It’s not that there’s no benefit to getting them added to your familiar for free, but it’s certainly less interesting than new spells you don’t normally get to access.
Lack of Patron Mechanics? Patrons felt like a list of spells, and that’s all they ever really were. I never even considered making them mean more to my character in their backstory.
Familiar Death Punishment? The main reason why I never really wanted to play with my pet. Having your character be actively harmed for trying to use their familiar in combat is pretty lousy (and it only feels worse in the playtest
unfortunately).
I am of two minds about this issue. On one hand, I absolutely agree, I wish Witch had a single spell list and the lessons provided far more spells added to your familiar (especially off-list spells). On the other, I definitely understand wanting to avoid a specific spell list with your concept (occult isn’t the best tradition for something like a medicine person who is receiving their magic from a guardian nature spirit.)
I think it would be best if we didn’t have to choose between those options. One of the main problems people have had with the patron is that it doesn’t have much theming going on, so wouldn’t that be greatly ameliorated by giving each of the lessons a group of spells added instead of just one? Or heck even just make your first lesson choice give you the backbone of your extra spells in addition to your list? I don’t know, but that kind of idea could kill two birds with one stone.
Is this problem unique to 2e witches? I've played with a witch PC in my 1e games about 75% of the time and the familiar rarely if ever got a mention outside of RP. This seems like creating an issue where one doesn't need to exist. Yes there are ways a familiar can get killed but a d##++ead GM can just as easily choose to go after a Wizard's spellbook or a cleric's divine focus.
I’d say with familiars getting much more emphasis as a class feature, it isn’t exactly fair to compare a GM targeting the squishy monkey who is actively helping his witch to an inanimate object that may or may not even be at hand to target.
I think it’s safe to say that, at the very least, Paizo doesn’t want players to consistently feel disappointed by missing studied strike (either the study check or the accuracy check), so it’s absolutely worth our time to communicate that it doesn’t feel very good. However, at this point they do probably get the point considering how many posts and topics have been made about it.
I’m definitely seconding (thirding? Fortiething?) lessening the penalties for losing your familiar. It’s super counterproductive to give a class a familiar and tell the player how cool it is only to penalize that player for actually remembering it exists. Just having the familiar come back the next day is perfectly fine. Your punishment for your familiar getting killed is that you can no longer use your familiar that day and maybe you get a scolding from your patron. It doesn’t need to be any more than that.
More feats for that hair please. I don't care if I'm a lot less effective than a martial, I just want the hair to be a decent option like it was in PF1.
What does the PF1 hex have that the PF2 version doesn't? What does it need for you to be "decent"?
Reach is the big one. The hex has 10' reach and the archetype's reach starts at 5 and increases every 4 levels. The archetype could also do a lot of different maneuvers using INT instead of STR (tripping, pulling, grappling w/ constrict and strangle).
I think if witches were to get subclasses for their patrons, rather than have them be indicative of who your patron is, I’d rather have it be defined by your relationship to your patron. Like, if you had a patron who hid their identity from you, your subclass would be “The Unknown” or something. Whereas if your patron was a force trying to influence you it could be “The Tempter”. That way the actual identity and abilities of your patron would still be defined by what lessons they can teach you.
Honestly I think the best/only change that really needs to be made to make Int more impactful is to make study a suspect some form of intelligence skill check.
Edit: Better yet, an enemy Will save against class DC as someone said upthread.
You are correct, the Alchemist uses the listed DC for the item unless they take the Powerful Alchemy feat (which still only applies to items made via quick alchemy).
If there’s one thing I can agree with in this thread, it’s that I wish Mutagenist got a better feature for level 1. Yes, being able to become expert in unarmed at level 7 is good, but it does basically nothing until then (the rules don’t even spell out mutagens can’t be used by someone they aren’t made for), and even when it comes online, it feels like it is just playing catch-up for the Alchemist not being expert in unarmed as part of their class.
Small question that I'm not sure if it has been answered, but does Shifter's Fury prevent your other natural attacks from benefiting from the DR bypass/crit modifier part of Shifter's Claws or just the damage die increase?
The spell that springs most readily to mind is commune.
-Core (no extra Additional Resources required)
-same level
-fits the theme of Rites
-requires a material component which can benefit from the subdomains power (as permanency did)
-fairly useful in PFS
Ah, so it means 1.5x Str and +3 Power Attack, but no bucklers. Interesting! The 1.5x Str is probably mostly wasted, as this feat allows you to use Slashing Grace as well, but this would be the only case in which you could get +3 Power Attack with a weapon that qualifies for that feat and also Precise Strike!
Some of the feats from Armor Master's Handbook might get shields back in the mix. ^_^
Yes, Unhindered Shield even makes Bucklers available to you, if you so choose to use the feats for it!
Also, I don't remember who wrote the Shelyn PrC (I wrote the ones for Ashava, Cayden Cailean, and Sarenrae), but that is seriously one of my all-time favorite prestige classes. That plus the feat makes for a VERY cool character concept--I need to see if I can't find the time to try that Prestige Class in PFS or something at some point.
Speaking of Bladed Brush, are you wielding the Glaive as a 2-handed weapon still, or is it effectively one-handed with the feat? It might just be my own personal confusion, but I just wasn't entirely sure how it worked.
I can see why you might be confused, but I'm certain you're still using it two-handed. It allows the weapon to be used for precise strike even though it is not light or one-handed.
Ah, so it means 1.5x Str and +3 Power Attack, but no bucklers. Interesting! The 1.5x Str is probably mostly wasted, as this feat allows you to use Slashing Grace as well, but this would be the only case in which you could get +3 Power Attack with a weapon that qualifies for that feat and also Precise Strike!
Also, I don't remember who wrote the Shelyn PrC (I wrote the ones for Ashava, Cayden Cailean, and Sarenrae), but that is seriously one of my all-time favorite prestige classes. That plus the feat makes for a VERY cool character concept--I need to see if I can't find the time to try that Prestige Class in PFS or something at some point.
Speaking of Bladed Brush, are you wielding the Glaive as a 2-handed weapon still, or is it effectively one-handed with the feat? It might just be my own personal confusion, but I just wasn't entirely sure how it worked.
That too, but a bodyguard who can't protect his ward from arrows is pretty pathetic, especially since he can't really leave their side to kill said archers. (This is what I mean by the idea behind it being weaker, the character concept that would want it essentially breaks down.)
Bodyguard: The Bodyguard feat says that I can spend one of my attacks of opportunity to use aid another to increase the AC of an adjacent ally, but it doesn’t say one way or the other whether this removes other restrictions on aid another? Particularly, do I need to threaten the attacking enemy? Also, has that enemy provoked an attack of opportunity from me?
You still need to fulfill all requirements of aid another, including threatening the attacking enemy. Bodyguard uses up one of your attacks of opportunity for the round, but the enemy hasn’t provoked an attack of opportunity from you, nor are you making one (which is relevant for abilities like Paired Opportunist).
There's something that feels really wrong about Bodyguard not working against ranged attacks (it makes the feat and the idea behind it much weaker), but I guess we can all hope for an eventual errata to change that...
One thing I've developed a serious distaste for is the Quick Footed Halfling racial trait.
Why? What's wrong with halflings being as fast as humans?
I agree, but understand someone getting annoyed with an alternate racial trait that is, for most purposes, always better than what it replaces.
(Especially since the movement speed increase arguably makes you better at Acrobatics than the skill bonus, as Acro checks are taking at huge penalties when moving greater than half speed)
That is a very interesting side case. In the normal case, I think it simply uses your phantom's attack, including whatever feats the phantom has, plus any effects currently on the spiritualist. "Attack bonus" is defined in the combat chapter as BAB+Stat after all. You don't need to do any more math than you would if the phantom was manifested. Just pull out its stat block and apply Inspire Courage, haste or what have you.
Because an exciter doesn't actually have a manifested phantom, I would default to the spiritualist's stats instead of statting out a phantom that can never manifest. Definitely something to clarify in Horror Adventures!
I had assumed that interpretation of the base class, but yeah the archetype is something that really needs clarification.
I miiiight have some vested interest in using an Exciter in the near future...
So, I hope I'm not flagged for being off-topic, but I do feel this is related. My biggest question concerning this class is in regards to Bonded Manifestation. Specifically the ectoplasmic version, in which at 8th level, you get tendrils in which "the spiritualist can use one or both tendrils to attack creatures within her melee reach (using the attack bonus and damage dice of her ectoplasmic manifested phantom)".
What does using the phantom's attack bonus mean, in this case? The phantom is not manifested, so does it mean it uses their Dexterity/Strength bonus and not the Spiritualist's and their BAB in addition to any feats, etc the phantom possesses? Do buffs on the Spiritualist affect these attack rolls? Does the Spiritualist add the damage bonus from the phantom's Str to these rolls? Can the Spiritualist use Power Attack on these attacks?
spoilers for specific archetype interactions:
This raises particular questions for the Exciter archetype from Horror Adventures who doesn't *have* a manifested phantom but still gains this ability, would they still be able to apply feats to their phantom for this purpose so that non-Anger phantoms get to add more than +1 Str to their attack roll or get improved natural attack?
I haven't seen any one of these in 16 years of 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder, while playing 3-4 groups weekly.
Besides, what is broken about mounted combat? Unless you allow ragelancepounce nonsense?
I'll assume you're talking to the OP, as I've literally never been in a group without the main frontliner wielding a 2-handed weapon because it's just statistically the best, especially every barbarian ever.
The only real "too common" build that I can't stand is the conjurer/diviner wizard (aka *The* wizard build). One being their arcane school, the other being a majority of their spells.
EDIT: Also a shout-out to Druids with a Tiger Animal Companion, that's another no-brainer option.
Having looked at a friend's copy of HA, we were both confused: Does the Hybrid Form for the Mooncursed still lose all equipment like it's alternate form would?
No, hybrid forms tend to not loose equipment, and when you use polymorph effects you don't "lose" equipment anyway, it fuses into your body until you change back (at least that's my understanding of it).
Yes I know you don't lose it forever, but my concern was with the Shifting Rage alternate form acting as a polymoph effect and the Hybrid Rage not specifically saying you weren't still an animal for all intents and purposes (just that you gained usable hands, bipedal movement and speech.)
Having looked at a friend's copy of HA, we were both confused: Does the Hybrid Form for the Mooncursed still lose all equipment like it's alternate form would?
The spell list is a problem, but honestly, what really kills Magical Child is the lack of unique talents. It effectively loses access to around 10 talents each version of the base Vig has baked in, while not getting anything in return. That plus half its talents being traded fro one of the worst 3/4 caster spell lists and a familiar+ really makes it underwhelm.
My only guess without looking directly at the source would be that it was supposed to affect other shields at one point as well? I will have to see for myself when my group has access to it.
No they don't.
They use of a buckler prevents Slashing/Fencing grace, spell combat and it interferes with weapon finesse(penalty to hit) if you actually want to get the benefit from buckler AC.
Yes, they do. This also implies they would work with Spell Combat, though using the hand the buckler is on to cast the spell would negate the AC bonus. You are correct that Bucklers apply ACP to Finesse, but that is easily rectified by purchasing a Masterwork Buckler (ACP: 0)
Also a feat to allow bucklers to not count as using the hand they are on, allowing Swashbucklers, Magus and Monks etc to use them (Unhindered Shield, needs Shield Focus)
Wait, WHAT? Bucklers already don't count as occupying the hand.
This is how I would handle it as well. Especially as the Metamorph seems be designed to be both an infiltrator and a sideshow act. It would be nice to get an official answer if only for PFS play.
I would also like official comment, I know about the polymorph effect taking away racial abilities, but would like to make sure that the discoveries are not considered "part of your original form." Tumor Familiar feels like it especially shouldn't be lost (or could be in familiar form and rejoin after the transformation).
The Roaming Exorcist from Undead Slayers Handbook gets 4+Int, (very arguably what the Standard Cleric SHOULD get anyway), and also has the Unseen Revealed and Curse Seeker abilities that could fit very easily into an "Intrigue" style game, with Dispossession and Curse Eater possibly coming up rarely as well.
That's not even bringing up the amazing Herald Caller archetype from Monster Summoner's Handbook that gets 4+Int skills, bonus summoning feats and the ability to spontaneously cast summon spells for the tradeoff of a domain and harsher alignment restrictions on summoning.
So, this is partially a question for UI, but mostly a general polymorph question, but would Alchemist discoveries like the Tumor Familiar, Wings and Extra Arms be lost when using a polymorph effect (most relevantly the Metamorph's main ability)?
If so, that's unfortunate as it makes even fewer talents viable for the Metamorph to take.
Power Attack can be used as long as it is not a touch attack. Same for Deadly Aim. The ability says it works for all effects that modify all weapon attacks (and not a singular weapon) as long as they don't specifically call out a case where they would not work (i.e. touch attacks and Power Attack) or a specific weapon or quality that a Mystic bolt does not count as or have. Abilities that would require the Warlock to be wielding the weapon (i.e. Two-Weapon Defense and Dazzling Display) do not appear to work.
On the topic of the Metamorph, is it intended for the archetype to retain both Brew Potion and Poison Use? Those seem like odd remnants considering it loses Alchemy and the latter poison abilities.
Spoiler:
I honestly kind of hope they get errata'd into a new ability or something, as the archetype does seem to have very little until level 5.
EDIT: Also, do the extra limb, tentacle or wings evolutions work when the Metamorph is transformed? I was always unclear how those interacted with polymorph effects.
It would be a happy present to see this brought into PFS :)
This is doubly true for the Medium, a Charisma caster whose spell list had to specifically have these spells added to it. This is as good a time as any to try and get this rule functional.
It will definitely be banned in PFS, since they routinely ban anything that might lead to PVP. That Will save is going to be tough since the save DC advances faster than the save bonus does.
I don't foresee many GMs or player groups allowing it in home games either, it's way too detrimental in both the time it takes to resolve and the danger it poses to the party. I'm not a great fan of hamstringing a class option to being nearly unusable just to please people who want to "accidentally" murder their party.
Spoiler:
It's not even as if the archetype needs it as a balancing option. It has enough restrictions on how it can enter and leave its vigilante identity, as well as the fact their social identity doesn't get to benefit from several features.
Having read through the book, I have to say the Brute Vigilante is my biggest disappointment. I understand the idea of mimicking the whole "Hulk is uncontrollable" thing, but the PvP aspect and the difficulty of preventing it means it will probably never be viable as any kind of PC option, which is honestly worse to me than not fitting the trope completely.
I think people would have complained more about it not fitting than the PvP aspect.
I guess I just won't ever understand that complaint, because I can't see many, if any, players being able to use it as is. It is impossible to avoid this PvP mechanic, unlike other archetypes such as Cult Leader or Toxicant.
Having read through the book, I have to say the Brute Vigilante is my biggest disappointment. I understand the idea of mimicking the whole "Hulk is uncontrollable" thing, but the PvP aspect and the difficulty of preventing it means it will probably never be viable as any kind of PC option, which is honestly worse to me than not fitting the trope completely.
I don't think I'm allowed to share tidbits yet. :(
I know the feels. I was telling Amanda about how hard it was to sit on this last week. :(
I will say two things, however: 1) I have been quoted several times by various Paizo employees as having said that in my humble opinion, the new vigilante is my favorite martial class in the game. 2) There's a feat that made me chuckle because its essentially Mark's way of fixing an issue with one specific stat block. ;-)
Why assume it was me? I wasn't the development lead on feats or on those statblocks.
I know what feat you mean, and it was indeed me.
Now I don't have the book, but I think I know who you mean. He and his starknife thank you if that is the case!
As for the in-combat extracts, I'd say you're still better off than in the previous Action System. Where you would be juggling using extracts or making any attacks at all.
This is true, it is just that the choice is slightly harder at early levels. (I.e. is using an extract then moving into melee going to be more efficient than moving and making two attacks)
As for the Quick Study thing, I'd say that is a fair shake, however the GM is using UAE exactly as written since it is our group's first experience with it.
Honestly, I think it's a pretty decent system but is in dire need of case-by-case exceptions and clarifications, like some swifts need to be free actions and several abilities/feats (Vital Strike, Weapon of the Chosen, Pinpoint Targeting) need to be retooled for the system.
Playing as an Investigator in a Dragon's Demand campaign using UAE, I have to say it has worked out mostly fine for my character personally, but has some pretty glaring problems for corner cases.
E.g. There is literally no reason to take Quick Study considering it is the same action cost as normal Studied Combat. Also, one encounter involved wraiths that were able to take 3 attacks per round and give negative levels on hits, which was unnecessarily deadly (luckily we had a skeleton to tank the hits).
Ultimately, for my character, the only real change was that I got iteratives earlier and I felt like in-combat extracts were a tad more painful to use, as they had to be weighted against making 2 attacks.
Why not just play a bard? There is enough overlap in buffing spells, you have better combat ability, and you get performance. You can also pretty easily go into Arcane Archer or Dragon Disciple if you want to boost combat ability further.
+1 this myself, but he says he really wants Arcane Bond. (Too bad no archetypes, because there is a Bard one for that)
Advanced Weapon Training from the new Weapon Master's Handbook is the shot in the arm the fighter needed. It plus the Weapon Mastery feats do a lot to help improve the Fighter's ability to specialize in 1-2 weapons. I would say any archetype that keeps Weapon Training is much more valuable now because of these. (Eldritch Guardian+Mutation Warrior with these options sounds like amazing fun.)
