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Organized Play Member. 158 posts (384 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Organized Play characters. 4 aliases.


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Malus attempts to perceive the holder of the strings

Perception Take 10: 10 + 8 = 18

1) I mean, its an interesting build, but pinging for 3-6 damage a round and (probably) going second is going to be in a bad place against anyone with an attack that targets touch AC.

VinGoodman: this is the build's actual worst enemy (Anything with a gun, or an arcane caster with CL boosts on Snowball).

2) Power Attack makes no sense to use against a level 1 wizard (really any level 1 to be honest) with 6-10 health; what's important is hitting. With a 3/10 chance to die each attack received, are stilled CL1 magic missiles really the way to go?

3) I think with an Arcanist with Potent Spell (+2 CL), this gets a bit more realistic. At least then you are throwing 2d4+2 damage each round albeit only three times per day. You can't be playing a long game with a build like this against someone with decent health and a weapon, because you will lose that way every time.

TL;DR: This build gimps itself against other classes in its goal to prove me wrong and put high AC on a wizard, but still fails at its original objective of not fearing archers or fighters because it has an auto-hitting wet noodle on offense and no means of escape from combat. I appreciate your effort, and you did succeed in creating a character that does (probably) survive round one, but all you have done is reaffirm my convictions.

Are we talking about wizards or bards? Bards cast spells, but they are not casters in that their HD is higher and they can wear armor.

Charm Person has so much table variance with GMs that it becomes completely unreliable, and on top of that - even if it does work how you want it to - you are betting your entire livelihood on whatever or not your target fails their will DC. Also, still completely depends on going first.

Instead of dismissing what I wrote out of hand by mentioning 'gross assumptions', why don't you show me how I am erring with a wizard/sorcerer/arcanist build that doesn't 100% depend on going first to survive, given this tournament's restrictions.

OP: since recruitment is low, I would also like to put my name in to play a Skald in addition to the Arcanist.

I think darth_borehd is overestimating the power of level 1 spells just slightly is all. A few extra casts of grease or magic missile are not exactly breaking the game, haha.

As a caster, if you do not beat the initiative of an archer or 2-handed fighter and somehow down them in that turn, you are 100% dead every time. This is regardless of number of spells. You do not even have time to 'buff up' with something like mage armor, so you're sitting at approximately (ballpark numbers here) 8 health, AC 13-14. A martial that can't deal with that in a single round should have to return their sword/bow and retire out of shame.

If casters don't get new spells, then I assume damage taken will carry over for everyone from round to round?

Casters are already at a disadvantage without losing spells each round as this tournament really only runs to a maximum of level 5. Casters begin to 'catch up' to a lot of martial classes only once they get access to level 3 spells, and really only begin to surpass them starting with level 4 spells. Up until then, two-handed melee and archers reign supreme.

I think you can actually improve the gameplay in PbP by having a regularly used familiar/companion/eidolon created as a separate alias that also posts. You can have a lot of fun with creating its own personality and interactions with what is going on; something that is often missed in tabletop.

I would be interested in the Arcanist.

Am I understanding correctly that it is the same character gaining levels and not full rebuilds going on at each level?

I could see a Witch doing really well in this.

If you are referring to 'crest' as in the meaning of a family crest, perhaps having the riddle worded such that an answer is an alternate definition, like a crest of feathers or the crest of a hill?

The item you are looking for is called a Spell Lattice, also found in the Advanced Class Guide.

The Ring of Wizardry would probably only double the number of spells you can cast at a spell level, not the spells prepared. When it talks about 'Spells per day' in the Arcanist writeup, it uses that to mean the number of casts and not your preparation (for example, having high Int does the same).

You would think that Runestone of Power showing up in the same book as the Arcanist would tip one off that this is the correct item to use with an Arcanist.

Hint: Spell Lattices are also for Arcanists, as opposed to Pages of Spell Knowledge.

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From Gamemastering: 5 level 5 characters are considered APL 5 still. While APL +3 is considered 'Epic' difficulty, APL + 4 isn't even on the chart. Good luck to them.

CR 9 means a total of 6400 xp in your creation budget:

-A level 3 NPC with class levels comes in at 600 xp each
-A level 5 NPC with class levels comes in at 1200 xp

Total: 6000 xp

Okay, so you're on track to creating your CR 9 encounter.

The suggested stat spread for a ranged npc is:
Str: 11, Dex: 13, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 9, Cha: 8
(Be sure to add the +2 to Dex for being Human)

For gear, the table lists the following guideline for gearing:

Level 3: 780g (350g weapons, 200g protection, 80g limited use, 150g gear)
Level 5: 2400g (900g weapons, 1000g protection, 300g limited use, 200g gear)

So, for example, a composite bows are 100g + 100g/str + 150 MW. In this situations, for a 'fair fight', they are being overgeared (In your example, over 700g just on weapons). Perhaps something along these lines:

Weapons (slightly pushing it, but not too bad, make it up elsewhere):
Longsword (15g)
Composite (+1 Str) MW Longbow (350g)
Chainmail (150g)
Limited Use:
Tanglefoot Bag (50g) or Potion of Cure Light Wounds (50g)
(Go wild here, it mostly won't be relevant)

Lemmy wrote:

Wouldn't Vital Strike be too much, though? Admittedly, it would only bring the blast damage to Fireball levels, but doing it for free, all the time, every time might be somewhat excessive...

Then again... Blasting is all the Kineticist does. So maybe it's okay.

The real question is: how many fireballs do you need in a day?

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Someone is going to hate me for saying this, but I just don't want this to be the next Rogue.

As it stands, I would rather have any rogue at the table in PFS than have a Kineticist sit down. Kineticists do nothing but deal damage, and they don't even do it well.

The number of posts on this class speaks for itself: everyone really wants this to be cool and fun. People are looking forward to what this might be, but right now it is a pure damage class that brings no utility to the table.

What we're missing from the start, is a post from the developer explaining what his actual mission statement is, what his vision is. What does he want this class to do? We're getting bogged down on running numbers when there are bigger issues (and a lack of direction).

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Mark: I'm really confused here, because you keep saying you want to keep damage low so that there can be cool toys/utility. The problem:

-Fighter Archers have utility
-Kineticists do not (at least in comparison)

From the posts I have seen, people are struggling to push damage past what an expert npc class (posted on p11), and they at least get 6 skills/level and aren't restricted to a single element (or burning themselves extreme amounts to push composite blasts, or taking a severe dpr hit to use another elements basic blast assuming the target isn't also immune).

So I guess I have to ask: how do you see this class playing? What is its 'point'? How does it fit into a group in pathfinder?

Mark Seifter wrote:
That said, if anyone can find a build that is outperforming a topped-out fighter archer without spending burn, please let me know so I can make some adjustments. It is my intention that such a build should not exist. That gives me lots of wiggle room for more cool utility stuff, skills, and that kind of fun stuff!

What would those damage levels be?

Alright, I just wanted to post this build to show my issues with the Kinetic Fist Wild Talent (as it currently stands). What it essentially comes down to is, even when building it fairly extreme for damage, it just kind of falls flat (I will admit that I am by no means an expert in melee builds and usually build magic users):

Terrakineticist Kinetic Fist Build:

Half-Orc Bloodrager(Abyssal) 2/Terrakineticist 8
Expected AC of enemies: 24
Race Traits: Darkvision, Sacred Tattoo (+1 Luck Saves), Scavenger, Intimidating
Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored (double luck saves)

AC: 24 (+12 armor, +2 Luck, +1 Dex, -1 Size), T: 12, FF: 23
F: 14 R: 11: W: 6
BAB: +8/+1

Str: 16 +2 (30 in Rage, Enlarged)
Dex: 14 (12 Enlarged)
Con: 14 (18 in Rage)
Int: 12 (12)
Wis: 12 (14)
Cha: 7 (7)

Hit: (+8 BAB, +7 Str, +1 Amulet, +1 Weapon Focus)
Damage: (2d6 Viscious + 3d6 Metal Blast, +10 Str, +1 Amulet)
Claw +18 1d8 +5d6 +11 (Magic/Silver, Adamantine/Cold Iron as required, S/B)
Claw +18 1d8 +5d6 +11 (Magic/Silver, Adamantine/Cold Iron as required, S/B)
Razortusk +12 6d6 +6

1: Heavy Armor Specialization
3: Weapon Focus (Natural Weapon)
5: Razortusk
7: Eldritch Claws (Claws are Magic/Silver)
9: Extra Rage (+6 rounds)

Wild Talents:
1: Kinetic Fist (Form) (Burn 1)
6: Rare Metal Infusion (Substance) (Burn 2)
7: Expanded Element (Earth) (Gain Composite Blast: Metal)

Sandstorm: 10d6+10 (Burn 2)

Full attack (Rage)= 2*.7*(4.5+17.5+12) /.5(21+6) = 47.6/13.5= 61.1 DPR (Ignores all DR/Elemental Immunities)

WBL: 62000g
Gear: Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16000), Viscious Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (16000), Mithril Full Plate +3 (19500), Headband of Aerial Agility +2 (4500)(Wis), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (5000), Wand of Enlarge Person (750)

The problem? Using the term DPR is a little dishonest, as maintaining this damage requires 2 Burn/Round (Composite Blast). Using a normal earth blase drops damage 2d6/attack (True DPR 47.8). You can get all attacks as Adamantite/Cold Iron included (take one Infusion Specialization into Substance, one into form), but are spending another 1 Burn to do this per round (come to think of it, I'm not even sure about if you have to buy Rare Metal Infusion once/round or once/attack). This is in addition to the Burn you put into raising your DR/- (for defence and to protect from vicious weapons).

I played around with using Unarmed strikes instead (either as a base or dips into mutagenic brawler, for example), and the damage of the full round attack never comes close.

Things that could help:
-Feel the Burn applying to your melee/kinetic strike to hit/damage. (I think this will make a huge difference)
-Being able to Empower/Maximize the blast damage added to kinetic fist
-Access to bonus combat feats for Wild Talents
-Reducing some Burn costs related to how this works
-Being able to apply some Con to kinetic fist damage
-Raise BAB

TL;DR: You have to pay too much Burn just to be decent at kinetic fist, it cannot be maintained. You talk about making choices when building your character, I think that - as it stands - making choices down the kinetic fist path are very suboptimal.

1) Are you able to Empower/Maximize the Blast damage associated with Kinetic Claws/Weapon/Whip?

2) Can you apply a substance infusion to this damage? If yes, must you pay the burn cost for each attack in a round separately?

Enhance weapons song replaces it, so I would understand that you add rage powers to that song instead.

Berinor: being part of your move action doesn't make it a move. A move action is anything that takes about the same amount of time as sprinting your base speed.

Dave: Shift still moved a person. It says right in grapple that you cannot move. There are no exceptions (other than Shift somehow?)

Tarantula: You can very much use move actions during a grapple, such as drawing a weapon with a BAB of +0 (or using Dimensional Slide?).

Are these somehow the best arguments that exist out there for Shift/against Dimensional Slide?

Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Why does this work in a grapple, but Dimensional Slide does not?

Just because Dimensional Slide "counts as 5 feet of movement" (i.e. you now have 5 less feet you can move this turn), does not mean you actually moved five feet to use it.

To be clear on my position: I am not necessarily advocating that Dimensional Slide gets you out of a grapple, but that both Dimensional Slide and Shift should work in the conditions, whatever those are.

It's nice, but you lose out on the ridiculous power of a familiar!

What racial trait allows this? I've never seen it.

If you had an ability that increases your initiative for a number of rounds, would activating it have an effect after initiative has been rolled?

Specifically, this would be for an Arcanist taking the School Understanding(Divination) exploit to gain the school ability to always act in the surprise round and add half your wizard level to your initiative. Unactivated, this provides a flat +1 initiative and the acting in the surprise round, but for the cost of an arcane pool point you can act as if you had more wizard levels for a number of rounds.

FangDragon wrote:

I'm not sure I agree that exploits > feats.

Some of the Exploits are very good but if you want to build a blaster there's a bunch of required feats: Spell Focus(Evocation), Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, Empower Spell, Intensify Spell, Quicken Spell

Similarly if you want to play a god wizard style arcanist there's a bunch of different feats you need: Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Persistent Spell, Dazing Spell, Improved Inituative, Heighten Spell

If you want to buff your summons exploits aren't going to help you with that, you need: Spell Focus (conjuration), Augment Summons, Superior Summons, Evolved Summon Monster, Summon Good/Neutral Monster etc...

You mostly listed metamagic feats, so I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with me. With access to the Potent Magic Exploit, do you really thing spell/greater spell focus are worth two feat slots?

I agree that if you're building a blockbuster arcanist, then you need to focus on that sort of a build.

I still strongly disagree that focusing your feats only on slightly improving your summons is anywhere near optimization, but I don't think we will ever agree if you think that's a strong build.

I think a good discussion point would be the feats question for an arcanist build.

I believe that in a lot of cases (you highlighted them in blue) there are exploits far superior to nearly all feat choices available. I think it can be a very short list for the guide of feats that are actually superior to these exploits, or provide something that you cannot get through exploits (examples: Improved Familiar, additional metamagic feats).

BretI: Usually the chronicles for these scenarios state that you select the character it is applied to at the time the chronicle is being written, not at the beginning of the scenario.

What about if you had multiple boons of the style posted above from different scenarios you played. Could you apply them all to the same newly generated character?

Imaginary situation:

I show up to play the freerpgday special Risen from the Sands using one of the level 3 pregens included in the module. My pregen dies or gains some sort of permanent condition during the adventure. It says that you normally must clear conditions at the end. Let's say the pregen gained a permanent negative level somehow.

What if I don't want to pay to have this pregen's negative level removed? For your own character, they would die, but do you care about the pregen? What if the conditions cost more to clear than the module provides? With the pregen, are you forced to clear these conditions out of your own gold? Or do you just choose not to assign it and walk away?

I know what you COULD do (e.g. assign it to a junk spare PFS number), but what is in the spirit of the rules?

Kind of confused about all of this, let me know if I'm not being clear enough.

Why are you even posting in this guy's optimization thread, DakLightHitomi? Do you really think that this is the place for your personal soapbox?

I'm not sure that the best way to run an Occultist is to boost the summons, but instead I think you should try to focus on your normal spellcasting through metamagic feats and extra exploits and let your summons be an amazing compliment instead.

AndIMustMask: I don't see language like that anywhere in my copy of the ACG. I'd think you would need some sort of fancy feat to be able to add metamagic to supernatural abilities.

Oh, I think we just skipped everything after the final combat, and went straight to the head GM reading the concluding paragraph to the room :( Thanks Disk Elemental abd Steven.

I have played this scenario about a month ago at a convention.

I noticed in several places online people have spoken about the twist ending and how fun it is. I have been wracking my brain trying to recall what it is, and am coming up empty.

Could someone please PM me (because people don't like spoilers posted) if they know what this is referring to? I would really appreciate it. I guess the details are just hazy because it ran quite late, and at the time we were probably too elated to be done and survived to focus on what was going on.

Thank you.

Please cancel my Pathfinder Campaign Setting subscription. I will continue my Pathfinder Roleplaying Game subscription.

Unfortunately, these products in the Campaign Setting are not what I expected them to be and do not wish to continue this ongoing subscription.

If you would like to discuss this further, please PM me on the matter.

Thank you!

Great video, haters gonna hate though.

That's a really good idea, Kestral287. Which Arcanist archetype would be best in that situation?

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I don't really get how that's any different from dumping strength and picking up a handy haversack, or dumping dexterity and wearing really good armor. Its just not that big of a deal unless you make it one.

I would do just fine with dumped Charisma in a heavy diplomacy game because I generally invest in Diplomacy at every level (made possible by having extra skills due to a high int). The penalties just aren't there to make one regret it, unlike having your main combat mechanic fail.

Yes, I will admit that there are different ways to play the game, but if you balance your character around all the types of encounters that exist in the game (combat, diplomacy, traps, exploration, etc), then dumping charisma will give you the most bang for your buck.

Meanwhile, I have no idea how one would decide that a 'charisma' is tied only to how a person looks, but if you have the kind of GM that makes up their own definitions of words, then uses those made up definitions to punish the players, then I don't really know what I can do to help you out. There is no good looks stat.

For everything else, there's Charm/Dominate Person ;)

*If you would like to discuss this further, feel free to send me a PM. That way, this thread can keep focused on a discussion about the guide being written.

DarkLightHitomi: Its honestly not that big of a deal if you do ignore them. Loading up on Cha as an arcanist would put you at what? 14? dumping to 9 or even 7 still doesn't make that big of a difference across the spread (-3 or -4 from where you 'could' have been).

Having your spells work awesome or being more survivable (dex/con) in exchange for an additional 15% failure rate on diplomacy seems like a no brainer.

Fruian: I would have no disagreement with you if this was just for an Arcanist Build Guide.

Thelemic_Noun: Possibly worth noting, the Bloodline Development exploit might be ranked a touch higher just because it can grant you an Arcane Bonded object, if you happen to not be a fan of familiars.

Show me an Arcanist build involving an elemental attack exploit, and I guarantee you that a better Arcanist could have been made using a different exploit.

You're a full caster, you have lots of better ways to target fortitude than by using your arcane pool and a charisma based DC.

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Well, points in Dex/Con and a few gold for a light crossbow accomplishes much more than points in Cha and a lost arcanist exploit (especially considering that Cha doesn't even add that much to the elemental attack spells, e.g. dumping Cha still works).

Thelemic_Noun wrote:
andreww wrote:

Your recommendations for Charisma are pretty terrible. Very few of the Exploits actually use much charisma and it generally tends to be the terrible elemental blasts. Charisma can very easily be a dump stat for Arcanists and even one using stuff like the dispel probably dont need more than a 10 to start with.

For the first four levels at least, acid jet and ice missile are actually somewhat good. They don't scale as well as spells, but at the early levels they offer a bit of flexibility. The stagger effect of ice missile is pretty effective, for example.

So is it an 'optimization guide', or a 'kinda okay build for the first four levels guide'?

He's okay, but he's no p248. I want that character, in that pose, as a figurine for playing.

I wonder how valuable EE day 1 characters are going to be on the open market if the game survives two years.

You will never narrow the gap, as that goalpost will always keep moving.

You are confused about how MMOs work. They reward time spent playing along with a skill set mastery, not a mastery of searching kickstarter and joining alpha tests early.

So you really don't understand how this will be bad for the game's ability to attract new subscribers? That no matter how good you are, you will always be behind someone that happened to notice a kickstarter was happening?

I think the point, which is extremely valid, is that if anyone joins after him and equally puts all of their xp into pvp that person will never be as good.

This is worrying, and something that would prevent a lot of potential players from ever joining. It's the opposite of a system that rewards skill and/or dedication to mastery.

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Human Occultist Arcanist 3

Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Augment Summoning
Evolved Summon Monster

Arcanist Exploits:
Potent Magic (+2 CL of DC to a spell)
Either Familiar or Arcane Bonded Item (Craft Wondrous Item at level 3?)

Evolutions I like (for one of your summoned creatures):
Bleed (Claws): One Eagle gains 1d6 bleed on both claw attacks.
Pounce: Able to full attack after charging.
Slam: Your elemental gainst a second slam attack
Magic Attacks: All attacks by this creature are magic for overcoming DR

You get all of what a summoner has, but trade an eidolon for access to the sorcerer/wizard list, buffed spells and a familiar or arcane bonded item. Plus, unlike Summoner, you are a completely SAD class (needing only intelligence). Dump that Str/Cha/even Wis.

Been working on an idea, and was hoping that running it by the forums here might help me fill in some gaps. The quick summary of the build is:

Half Orc (Sacred Tattoo, City Raised, Intimidating, Darkvision)
-Favored class bonus (Skald): Can rage an extra round/day
-Fortune's Favored (Add +1 to any luck bonus you receive)
-Comunity-Minded (Any morale bonus you grant lasts extra 2 rounds)
Skald (Fated Champion) 1/Slayer (Vanguard) 2/Skald (Fated Champion) X

A bit more of a breakdown looks like this:


Level 1: Skald (Fated Champion) 1
Feat: Skald’s Vigor – While maintaining a raging song, gain fast healing equal to the song’s strength bonus
Bonus Feat: Extra Performance – You can use performance an extra 6 rounds per day (PFS replaces Scribe Scroll with this)
*At this point, your allies gain +2 morale to Str and Con, +1 to Will, -1 AC, and you gain Fast Healing 1. You rage for 9 + CHA rounds/day.

Level 2: Slayer (Vanguard) 1
Studied Target (Ex): As a move action, study a target to gain +1 on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, Weapon attack and weapon damage.
Lookout (Ex): Add ½ Level to Initiative Checks (This appears to not be class dependant, worst case it becomes a static +1)

Level 3: Slayer (Vanguard) 2
Tactician (Ex): Add Teamwork Feat (Amplified Rage – When raging adjacent to someone with this feat, increase morale bonus by +4 to Str and Con), once per day as standard action, grant to all allies in 30’ 3 + ½ level rnds (Replaces 2nd level Slayer Talent)
Feat: ??? Generally my feats will probably go into Extra Rage Powers, but noting that those from the feat seem to only work on myself.
*At this point, if you are adjacent to an ally, any ally, while both are raging and you grant this, you will have +6 Str/+6 Con, and the Skald gains Fast Healing 3

Level 4: Skald (Fated Champion) 2
Watcher of the Weave: Gain an insight bonus to initiative equal to ½ your Skald level (Initiative will start going through the roof)

Level 5: Skald (Fated Champion) 3
Feat: ???
Rage Power: ???

Level 6: Skald (Fated Champion) 4
Uncanny Dodge: You are never caught flat-footed, nor do you lose dex bonus to AC when attacked by invisible.

Level 7: Skald (Fated Champion) 5
Feat: ???
Far Seer: Give up spell slots to cast from Sorcerer/Wizard, Bard or Cleric lists. Spells that predict the future cost one less, spells that cause damage use one more.

Level 8: Skald (Fated Champion) 6
Rage Power: ???

Level 9: Skald (Fated Champion) 7
Feat: ???

Level 10: Skald (Fated Champion) 8
Improved Uncanny Dodge: You can no longer be flanked.
Inspiring Rage bonus to stats increases to +4, will bonus is at +3.

Level 11: Skald (Fated Champion) 9
Damage Reduction: Gain DR 1/-
Rage Power: ???
Feat: Improved Skald’s Vigor – Your allies share your fast healing while you rage song
*At this point, you grant your fast healing to allies (and gear would probably be put together to improve morale bonuses). Your initiative is quite high, and you can rage for a total of 27+Cha rounds/day (How long is combat again, generally?)

So that's the core of it. That's 3 Rage Powers and 3 Feats unaccounted for, and I'm kind of torn between focusing on two handed feats (I will probably use a reach two-handed weapon) or just picking 3 personal rage powers. Maybe something like this:

Personal Rage Powers:
-Quick Reflexes: Can make one additional attack of opportunity per round while raging.
-Lesser Spirit Totem: Spirits slam an opponent adjacent to you
-Spirit Totem: Ranged and melee not adjacent to you have a 20% miss chance

Rage Powers:
-Superstitious: Gain a morale bonus vs spells, SLAs and SUs
-Witch Hunter: Extra Damage vs Spellcasters
-Disruptive: Gain the Disruptive Feat

What do you think?

Vanguard Slayers gain the following ability at first level:

At 1st level, a vanguard adds 1/2 his level (minimum 1) to initiative checks.

Normally abilities like this read something along the lines of "adds 1/2 his slayer level".

In contrast, you see a similar ability granted by the Divination School for Wizards:

You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.

Does this wording make a one level dip in Vanguard extremely favourable as all characters would gain 1/2 character level added to initiative?

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