Where does it say that? I read "can unleash at will". It's not nailed down to a standard like an Alchemist's bomb.The problem with that statement Ivan, is that the vital strike feats would also apply, wich to me would be broken.But blast is not an attack action but a standard action
Spell-likes and Su abilities are Standards unless otherwise stated.
They don't otherwise state.
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So Mark... can we please lose the free hands requirement on the charge-up move action, and just flavor it as "Drawing the element around you"?
I'm not arguing for or against, but he immediate repercussion would be every kinetecist carrying a shield. At the very least, this would be a mithral buckler.
I'd personally like to see a class feature that lets them count a weapon's enhancement bonus for their attack and damage rolls.... or something.
An extra few AC when they're otherwise limited to light armor (or losing levels or a Feat) is hardly a big deal I'd say.
An ability that grants them a constant mage armor effect but scales(max+10) would be cool.
The saves feel off for some elements. Shouldn't a telekinetic have a good will save? Should a terrakinetic really have a good reflex save. Maybe the class could have different saves based on element. Or maybe just make the saves fort and will.It's about moving stuff with your mind. Including yourself. And the power source is yourself, hence the con. Reflex and Fort seem totally appropriate to me.
"Moving stuff with your mind" can be directly translated as "force of will". A strong will save makes great sense. A fort save is about how resistant you are to effects like poison. Why is my mind power making me better at that? How does reflex factor in at all.
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I think what is missing from the Kineticist class is class abilities that can strongly affect narrative.
Elements and their relationship with narration:
A Pyrokineticist who uses fire to uncover the truth in things (e.g Zone of Truth spell).
A Aerokineticist who uses air to view places that are far away (e.g a lesser version of the Scry spell.)
Burn class ability and hurting yourself in the name of correcting injustices of the world.
Even though high DPR is empowering for many players (myself included), it's sometimes less empowering for others.
Roleplaying games have the power to act as a form of catharsis, you may not be able to correct the injustices in the real world, but you get the opportunity to do it in a fantasy world.
And voluntarily personal harm to combat the cunning nature of evil (finding the illusive trail of a serial killer) is epic and could be more empowering than a high DPR.
From my personal experience, for many players (especially female players, a common sight at my gaming table) "empowerment through influencing narrative" is an important factor in class selection.
This is some good stuff right here! It helps tie the Kineticist in closer with the Occult themes of the book, gives them more narrative power than "I can go here because of *Movement type*"
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"Moving stuff with your mind" can be directly translated as "force of will". A strong will save makes great sense. A fort save is about how resistant you are to effects like poison. Why is my mind power making me better at that? How does reflex factor in at all.
Not gonna argue with you about Reflex, but Fort makes sense considering how this class seems to have a lot of focus on their strength of their body (Constitution affects their powers, Burn mechanic uses their bodies' energy to a painful level as extra power)
"Moving stuff with your mind" can be directly translated as "force of will". A strong will save makes great sense. A fort save is about how resistant you are to effects like poison. Why is my mind power making me better at that? How does reflex factor in at all.The saves feel off for some elements. Shouldn't a telekinetic have a good will save? Should a terrakinetic really have a good reflex save. Maybe the class could have different saves based on element. Or maybe just make the saves fort and will.It's about moving stuff with your mind. Including yourself. And the power source is yourself, hence the con. Reflex and Fort seem totally appropriate to me.
What really brings the mind into this? This is less "my brain is super strong and can influence my surroundings" and more "I have the power to do this! It's part of me and instinctual in a way."
This mode of control can be seen in the Human Torch, Ice Man, Benders in Avatar, and many other forms of media.
"Moving stuff with your mind" can be directly translated as "force of will". A strong will save makes great sense. A fort save is about how resistant you are to effects like poison. Why is my mind power making me better at that? How does reflex factor in at all.The saves feel off for some elements. Shouldn't a telekinetic have a good will save? Should a terrakinetic really have a good reflex save. Maybe the class could have different saves based on element. Or maybe just make the saves fort and will.It's about moving stuff with your mind. Including yourself. And the power source is yourself, hence the con. Reflex and Fort seem totally appropriate to me.What really brings the mind into this? This is less "my brain is super strong and can influence my surroundings" and more "I have the power to do this! It's part of me and instinctual in a way."
This mode of control can be seen in the Human Torch, Ice Man, Benders in Avatar, and many other forms of media.
I'd say the word telekinesis is loaded enough to suggest you are using your mind. That's why I suggested the saves may be based off your element.
But are ice man or human torch any more resistant to disease as compared to mind control, because that's what those saves would suggest.
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Aura moderate conjuration; CL 7th
Slot wrists; Price 2,000 gp (+1), 8,000 gp (+2), 18,000 g[ (+3), 32,000 gp (+4),
50,000 gp (+5)
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DESCRIPTION
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These item appear to be wrist or arm guards etched with symbols of the four elements
Kinetic Bracers grant the wearer's ranged attack spells and spell-like abilities an enhancement
bonus, just as though the wearer were attacking with a ranged weapon. Both bracers must be
worn for the magic to be effective.
Alternatively, Kinetic Bracers can grant ranged weapon special abilities. See Table: Ranged Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities.
Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage rolls.
Kinetic Bracers cannot have a modifier bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5.
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CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
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Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator's caster level must be at least three times
the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the ranged weapon special abilities;
Cost 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 go (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5)
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Just from the first glance at the doc, my wife and I really want to roll up water and fire kineticists, respectfully. Composite blasts are our favorite part because we tend to roll characters that work in tandem with each other, so I'm really hoping that they get expanded in the final book :)
Alright Tirisfal, this feat is just for you and your wife to playtest, and I expect a playtest session on its pros and cons. No one else can use this feat.
Tandem Composite [Teamwork]
Whether you are shooting your flame into your partner's water to create steam or chilling your partner's air to create a snowstorm, you can combine elements together with another kineticist to deadly effect.
Prerequisites: Kineticist 1st
Benefit: You can spend a full-round action to ready a special action to activate a simple blast of your choice with another character within 15 feet who has this feat.
Whenever another character with this feat takes the special action to ready for your turn, if you fire a different simple blast on your turn that can form a composite blast with the other character's blast, the two simple blasts combine to form a composite blast. The composite blast deals damage as if formed by a kineticist with a level the average of your two caster levels, and its caster level is also that level. One of you may provide a form infusion appropriate for the composite blast, and the other may provide a substance infusion appropriate for the composite blast. Each of you takes burn separately for these infusions. Only the character who didn't take the special ready action can apply metakinesis to the blast, and they are the only one who can gather power to reduce the blast's cost (since only they have a move action to take just before blasting). However, whatever metakinesis they apply affects the entire composite blast. If the two characters are not adjacent, the origin point of cones, lines, and other effects that normally originate from a vertex in a character's square instead originate from a vertex in the square located halfway in between the two characters (where the twin blasts meet and form the composite). The blast uses the Con modifier of whoever provided the substance infusion and the Dex modifier of whoever provided the form infusion. If only one infusion was provided, the other participant provides the missing modifier. If there are no infusions, the two participants can choose which Dex modifier and which Con modifier to use, but in any case the same participant can't provide both.
(...)
I like the idea, but the bracers shouldn't affect spells. Casters are powerful enough as they are. OTOH, they could affect thrown weapons! That way they would not only help the Kineticist, but also make thrown weapon builds more viable!
I don't think it's necessary to limit it to +5, though. Let their enhancements work like a normal weapon. They already have the disadvantage of occupying an item slot (in fact, they could be an slotless item).
At a quick glance, Hydro seems to be the most versatile in talents. Initially I thought they suffered in mobility options, but they can Iceman flight. Are they lacking in anything?
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At a quick glance, Hydro seems to be the most versatile in talents. Initially I thought they suffered in mobility options, but they can Iceman flight. Are they lacking in anything?
Not really much Water Kinetics is the best Kinetics. I think it is followed by aether, then air, and finally earth and fire. I almost thing that fire is the worst one right now.
Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
"Moving stuff with your mind" can be directly translated as "force of will". A strong will save makes great sense. A fort save is about how resistant you are to effects like poison. Why is my mind power making me better at that? How does reflex factor in at all.The saves feel off for some elements. Shouldn't a telekinetic have a good will save? Should a terrakinetic really have a good reflex save. Maybe the class could have different saves based on element. Or maybe just make the saves fort and will.It's about moving stuff with your mind. Including yourself. And the power source is yourself, hence the con. Reflex and Fort seem totally appropriate to me.What really brings the mind into this? This is less "my brain is super strong and can influence my surroundings" and more "I have the power to do this! It's part of me and instinctual in a way."
This mode of control can be seen in the Human Torch, Ice Man, Benders in Avatar, and many other forms of media.
I'd say the word telekinesis is loaded enough to suggest you are using your mind. That's why I suggested the saves may be based off your element.
But are ice man or human torch any more resistant to disease as compared to mind control, because that's what those saves would suggest.
What are and are not good saves is completely arbitrary.
What about a man with armor suggests they have good Fort saves? Honestly the fact that they're so mobile in armor actually indicates they should have a good reflex.
Oracles have strong will saves despite not gaining their power through faith, but from a Gods blessing.
Gunslingers have strong fortitude because why?
Swashbucklers don't have strong fort despite the media archetype being good at resisting alcohols, poison, and sometimes sickness.
Saves are arbitrary and it's better to think less about what they should be fluffwise.
So much this! This is what I was trying to say earlier about the Codex Alera stuff. We need more powers like these to keep the kineticists from being one trick ponies. These sorts of powers, plus 4 + int mod skills, a few more abilities like Slick and Kinetic Cover, and some sort of general move/manipulate your element ability (possibly also including countering opposing elemental effects) and I think this class won't need to worry about matching fighter DPS, as it'll have a stronger depth, flavor, and utility that'll make up for any DPS loss.I think what is missing from the Kineticist class is class abilities that can strongly affect narrative.
Elements and their relationship with narration:
A Pyrokineticist who uses fire to uncover the truth in things (e.g Zone of Truth spell).
A Aerokineticist who uses air to view places that are far away (e.g a lesser version of the Scry spell.)
I would love to see it integrated as a class ability, however even as a archetype option it could extend the appeal of the Kineticist class.
Catering to both Avatar and Codex Alera fans.
IMO,often themes and mechanics are wrongly categorized as two separate entities, sometimes they are, many times they are not.
I love Mark Seifter's decision to create a unified entity (of theme and mechanics) by combining thematic class skills with elements.
Justin Alexander (The Alexandrian) and System Mastery:
"Mastery of the game”, IMO, takes many different forms. As far as character creation goes, IMO, it boils down to knowing the system well enough to create the effect you want. When a lot of people talk about “mastery of the game”, however, they’re narrowly talking about creating the specific effect of an awesome combat build."
Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
If a Pyrokinetic got "combustion bending" and thus received a Bludgeoning or Piercing, non touch, non-elemental basic blast do you think that would suffice? It would require very little reworking of the composite Blasts and Infusions.
I think good fort saves makes sense for kineticist, though good will saves make better sense then good reflex saves.
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Price +1 bonus
Aura moderate evocation; CL 8th; Weight -
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DESCRIPTION
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A Kinetic weapon is able to channel the energy of a Kineticist's Kinetic Weapon or Kinetic Whip spell-like ability.
When the wielder uses either ability, he may choose to channel it through the weapon, replacing the weapons
attack profile with wielders Kinetic Weapon[i] or [i]Kinetic Whip's profile. The weapon type does not change
(i.e. if the weapon is a dagger, is remains a dagger for purposes of feats and proficiencies) For example,
a kineticist channeling a 5d6 cold Kinetic Weapon through a dagger will have a profile of (5d6/20/x2) unless
modifed by feats or special abilities. The Kinetic weapon must be appropriat for the ability used (i.e. one-handed
or light for Kinetic Weapon or have the reach property for Kinetic Whip). Attacks made while channeling have their
burn reduced by 1 and benefit from all enhancement bonuses and special ability's of the weapon.
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CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
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Craft Magic Arms and Armor, spectral hand; Cost +1 bonus
What are and are not good saves is completely arbitrary.
What about a man with armor suggests they have good Fort saves? Honestly the fact that they're so mobile in armor actually indicates they should have a good reflex.
Oracles have strong will saves despite not gaining their power through faith, but from a Gods blessing.
Gunslingers have strong fortitude because why?
Swashbucklers don't have strong fort despite the media archetype being good at resisting alcohols, poison, and sometimes sickness.
Saves are arbitrary and it's better to think less about what they should be fluffwise.
Fort represents your ability to "tough something out". Any archetype that is based on being tough has a high fort. Gunslingers are based on western heroes like John Wayne who were famous for being tough.
Reflex represents your ability to react quickly enough to get out of the way. Archetypes who are known for being light on their feet get good reflex, such as rogues or swashbucklers.
Will represents your ability to stay focused. It is possessed by almost all spell casters and those who rely heavily on spell like abilities.
Saves are not arbitrary. They fit to the character archetype and a telekinetic should have a good will save. And a geokinetic probably should not have a good reflex save.
If a Pyrokinetic got "combustion bending" and thus received a Bludgeoning or Piercing, non touch, non-elemental basic blast do you think that would suffice? It would require very little reworking of the composite Blasts and Infusions.Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
It would help. Then it would only have the same problems as every other Kineticist (DR).
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(...)I like the idea, but the bracers shouldn't affect spells. Casters are powerful enough as they are. OTOH, they could affect thrown weapons! That way they would not only help the Kineticist, but also make thrown weapon builds more viable!
I don't think it's necessary to limit it to +5, though. Let their enhancements work like a normal weapon. They already have the disadvantage of occupying an item slot (in fact, they could be an slotless item).
A flat +5 bonus is pretty trivial to a dedicated blaster who is already getting +3 damage per die. It also takes away the casters ability to wear Bracers of Armor.
That said, I added the word attack to clarify this only meant to apply to spells requiring a to-hit roll (mostly rays).
Slotless items double in cost.
It would help. Then it would only have the same problems as every other Kineticist (DR).If a Pyrokinetic got "combustion bending" and thus received a Bludgeoning or Piercing, non touch, non-elemental basic blast do you think that would suffice? It would require very little reworking of the composite Blasts and Infusions.Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
At level 7 you have the choice of either basic blast, so you're only truly hosed against opponents with both Fire Resist/Immunity AND DR.
....That describes some scary high level enemies.
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At level 7 you have the choice of either basic blast, so you're only truly hosed against opponents with both Fire Resist/Immunity AND DR.It would help. Then it would only have the same problems as every other Kineticist (DR).If a Pyrokinetic got "combustion bending" and thus received a Bludgeoning or Piercing, non touch, non-elemental basic blast do you think that would suffice? It would require very little reworking of the composite Blasts and Infusions.Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
Demons love kineticist's
For lunch.
At level 7 you have the choice of either basic blast, so you're only truly hosed against opponents with both Fire Resist/Immunity AND DR.It would help. Then it would only have the same problems as every other Kineticist (DR).If a Pyrokinetic got "combustion bending" and thus received a Bludgeoning or Piercing, non touch, non-elemental basic blast do you think that would suffice? It would require very little reworking of the composite Blasts and Infusions.Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
IE every Evil Outsider in the game. Except Rakshasa, I believe are the only ones. And maybe Kyton. But they're the smallest category anyway. Daemons, Devils, Demons, Qlippoth, all have both DR and either resistance or immunity to Fire. That's a solid chunk of the bestiary in just one Type.
I'm not certain the class really needs to out DPR archers/fighters whatever. The aerokinetist can by 6th level fly all day and have a range or 240 with a miss chance for incoming arrows and such, at that point you have inevitibilty against most enemies. Water has enough utility powers that they aren't forced to just blast away they can throw up cover or heal instead. The archer may out damage them but you can have other things to do.
Air gets some nifty minor boosts, but not enough to build around. Having (essentially) constant Fly and Entropic Shield is not class-making.
Water has utility, but the other elements don't really. Which means teh class needs to go one of two ways: More DPR, or more universal utility.
I'd say a mix of both is in order (still think it should match the Alchemist, AoEs that do the same damage as your blast, multiple times a round, PLUS a useful spell list and other nifty bits).
Just had an Idea for an Infusion I would really like to see... Allow the attack to deal "Splash" damage within 5-10 feet of the target, equal to the attacks minimum damage, reflex save for half. Would be a good low/mid level way of getting an AoE attack.
At level 7 you have the choice of either basic blast, so you're only truly hosed against opponents with both Fire Resist/Immunity AND DR.It would help. Then it would only have the same problems as every other Kineticist (DR).If a Pyrokinetic got "combustion bending" and thus received a Bludgeoning or Piercing, non touch, non-elemental basic blast do you think that would suffice? It would require very little reworking of the composite Blasts and Infusions.Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
I like the idea.
IMO, the Kineticist is a specialized class and there needs to be some limitations to his (or her) ability.
Other Pathfinder classes (not all) have similar limitations and experienced players find ways (purchase magical items, select feats) to work around those limitations.
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If a Pyrokinetic got "combustion bending" and thus received a Bludgeoning or Piercing, non touch, non-elemental basic blast do you think that would suffice? It would require very little reworking of the composite Blasts and Infusions.Fire is definitely the least versatile, and most easily shut down.
I don't think my Pyrokinetic is going to fare well in the Tomb of Horrors.
For me it would help to get a second attack. But it is also the fact that for being the damage dealing element its ability to do damage is not that different then the others. Kind of like the earth element is suppose to be the defense element and yet it only has 3 defense options. Flesh of stone, Kinetic Form, Jagged Flesh. You might be able to say that tremor sense is a defense thing but it is more a perception thing. Water has 3 defense abilities. Shroud of Water, Kinetic Cover, and Shimmering Mirage.
Pretty much with the abilities as is the Fire element need more options and maybe more dmg then the other elements, such as a d8 if it is going to be the "damage" element. I understand that there will be more options in the final versions and I love that you can essentially fly with the flame jet abilities. And I will be trying to get a playtest in each of the elements. Right now I am playing an Aerokinetic and other then damage he does not contribute a lot to the party. His character sheet is in the playtest forum Here
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The problem is there aren't (as of yet) magic items of Feats to work around this limitation.
And I don't like the idea of being reliant on a magic item to be effective. I want my character to be strong because my character is strong, not because his bling is shinier than other people's.
1: It would REALLY be nice to deal with resistance/ immunity. I wouldn't want to have to take a blast that doesn't quite fit a concept I have in my head to make him viable.
2: More skills would be nice, since they do not really do anything out of combat. This looks like it will be addressed though.
3: I honestly think that the kineticist should have a way to deal with nonlethal from sources outside of burn, or it becomes the QUICKEST way to ruin their day.
I'm not certain the class really needs to out DPR archers/fighters whatever. The aerokinetist can by 6th level fly all day and have a range or 240 with a miss chance for incoming arrows and such, at that point you have inevitibilty against most enemies. Water has enough utility powers that they aren't forced to just blast away they can throw up cover or heal instead. The archer may out damage them but you can have other things to do.
It's a pretty fine line, but the goal for this class seems to be doing a decent amount of damage to a large number of enemy types while being AWESOME.
Not asking for Gunslinger/Archer levels of "pwning."
Class making no, but close melee can't do anything to you archery has trouble hitting you through an increasingly high miss chance and spellcasters need at least a medium range spell to do anything, while you can just blast away. My point was even without feats/items its well on its way. If they can beat out the archer in a shootout and still have all there other powers than what is the point in being an archer since they are pretty much a one trick pony.
Your conjectures are not based on any sort of optimization and it's obvious.
Class making no, but close melee can't do anything to you archery has trouble hitting you through an increasingly high miss chance and spellcasters need at least a medium range spell to do anything, while you can just blast away. My point was even without feats/items its well on its way. If they can beat out the archer in a shootout and still have all there other powers than what is the point in being an archer since they are pretty much a one trick pony.
Even though what you say may be true...
It's theory crafting, not playtesting. In a underground or indoor setting there is rarely a 'medium range.' 'What if' scenarios (or arm chair theory) only give a snapshot of the Kineticist's capabilities/limitations rather than a broad analysis.
@brad2411 great analysis of the classes. Having Int 11 and limited out-of-combat options is a reasonable parameter to make a judgement call.
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I have a couple of questions; I apologize if they have already been answered, or the answer is obvious to everyone else.
Re. Telekinetic blast: "You throw whatever unattended object happens to be around." Does this mean telepathically hurling something that is just sitting around, or do you have to physically throw the thing, and then it's carried on with greater telepathic force? The use of the word "throw" just had me wondering.
Re. Other elemental blasts
Obviously, to use telekinetic blast, you need an object or else the power is useless. Do you need some source element material for it to work, or is just summoned instantaneously as needed? E.g. Would Air Blast work underwater (without a source of air)?
What got me originally wondering about this was the Earth Blast, "You shape earth into clumps or jagged shards and send it flying..." that almost sounds like you have to manipulate some material e.g. balling up some mud, before making the blast. This seemed much different from the way I imagined e.g. Fire Blast. I suspect I know the answer (that you are able to summon the elemental material as needed) but some of the wording left me unsure. Thank you!
From what I understand you do not actually throw something you could say pick up a rock that weighs 5lbs. with your powers and that is thrown or any other item,
The elemental powers are all pulled from a different plane (ethereal plane). so no source material should be needed. How they work underwater I do not know. But is a good question.
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I was planning to play an Aether Kineticist who keeps a set of really cool looking rocks around that he levitates around and slaps people with during combat.
Okay I've been searching for this but couldn't find the answer. How exactly does Kinetic blade work? Do the blades resolve as touch attacks if the blast is a touch attack? Is it the same if you charge a weapon that you already have? I was going to try a melee build today but went blaster because I couldn't find the answer in time.
Side question, has anyone made a melee build yet? Can I see to compare thoughts on how I could have handled today's session?
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Okay I've been searching for this but couldn't find the answer. How exactly does Kinetic blade work? Do the blades resolve as touch attacks if the blast is a touch attack? Is it the same if you charge a weapon that you already have? I was going to try a melee build today but went blaster because I couldn't find the answer in time.
Side question, has anyone made a melee build yet? Can I see to compare thoughts on how I could have handled today's session?
"The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type."
So weapon does the touch ac if your blast does plus it allows you to make iterative attacks. So in other words a melee kineticist is where it is at.
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Okay I've been searching for this but couldn't find the answer. How exactly does Kinetic blade work? Do the blades resolve as touch attacks if the blast is a touch attack? Is it the same if you charge a weapon that you already have? I was going to try a melee build today but went blaster because I couldn't find the answer in time.
Side question, has anyone made a melee build yet? Can I see to compare thoughts on how I could have handled today's session?
"The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for a blast of its type."
So weapon does the touch ac if your blast does plus it allows you to make iterative attacks. So in other words a melee kineticist is where it is at.
What about Kinetic Fist? You're enveloped in the energy, but does it provoke attacks when punching? Do you need Improved Unarmed Strike?
I'm beginning to think that a force damage blast should be available for Aether at 1st lvl. Then you can have a more focused blast dealing more force damage (or force + another type) when you take a composite blast later.
I really really really would like my kamehame... I mean force blast :) Any updates on a line form talent? Or an expensive way to combine form talents? Line + Extreme range force blast for way too much burn... but just so cool!