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Why the Improved Snap Shot nerf, though? Was it genuinely overpowered? Something that gives archers a benefit for entering melee should probably give a pretty solid benefit. Also, an archer ranger/slayer won't be getting it until level 11 or so (scroll down to the Feat Outline table), at which point a lot of enemies will have 15 foot reach too.

Requiring archers to get within a 5-foot step of a full-attack from anyone in order to make AoOs against them makes Snap Shot and friends almost useless.

Keep in mind that if someone kills you with a reach weapon (or if they have natural reach of 10 feet or more, or if they use a ranged attack) they're outside the blast's area. So the feat isn't even guaranteed to do anything.

Imbicatus wrote:
If you combine it with From The Ashes, it is thematic and cool, and lets you die, damage everything around you, and immediately Phoenix self-resurrect.

Parting Blast doesn't work with From the Ashes, because it doesn't say that you die and come back, just that you transform into ash and then reform out of it. The fact that the two are incompatible is rather disappointing.

A Shaman with the the Witch Variant Multiclass can't qualify for Extra Hex even if they want to use it for another Shaman hex.

This could be fixed by replacing "She never qualifies for the Extra Hex feat" with "She cannot qualify for the Extra Hex feat through the hexes granted at 7th, 15th, or 19th level".

I'm having trouble understanding this, so it would be nice if I could hear from a developer on it:

The playtest Kineticist had piddly damage, about on par with a bow-using warrior (not fighter, warrior), and release Kineticist looks to be pretty much the same. Is there a reason why the Kineticist's damage output wasn't changed much from playtest to release?

And it's up! Just got mine.

SmiloDan wrote:

Mystic Bolt can be 1d6 per spell level capable of casting.

1d6 at 1st
2d6 at 4th
3d6 + 3d6 at 8th
4d6 + 4d6 at 10th
5d6 + 5d6 at 14th
5d6 + 5d6 + 5d6 at 15th
6d6 + 6d6 + 6d6 at 16th


Also, the range could increase by 30 feet for each increase in spell level.

That punishes Warlocks who who don't take all the casting talents. It would be better, were a change of this sort implemented, to set it a 1d6 at 1st level +1d6 per three caster levels after 1st (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th), with a maximum of 7d6. This also doesn't change the end-of-build average damage by very much.

Regardless of all that, though, can we all agree that Mystic Bolt should not have a level restriction?

Tharasiph wrote:
Can't you twf with a mystic bolt and thus also use say an Alchemists bombs as well? That's pretty powerful.

You wouldn't be able to TWF with bombs+bolts without Fast Bombs, which requires an 8-level "dip" into Alchemist. You can only spend talents on discoveries marked with a *, and Fast Bombs isn't one of those.

chbgraphicarts wrote:
Flame Effigy wrote:


Combine Avenge and Stalker, add more Warlock stuff, and just delete Zealot.

Yeah, but... then the question becomes "why not play a Slayer or Magus?"

Regarding Magus in particular: they cast from their own list. There's no 6ths-caster who uses the Sor/Wiz list, which is a big part of why I think Warlock should be expanded into its own class with proper 6th-level casting and a larger talent list (plus some core class features that actually complement the spellcasting, maybe something similar to arcane pool or arcane reservoir). Toss on an archetype that gets hexes and uses the Witch list, and then every full caster (other than shaman) has a 6ths-caster counterpart.

Rynjin wrote:

There's really no reason to actually playtest the Zealot.

Its BaB is the same, its saves are worse, and it has the spellcastng and the same class features as the Inquisitor...but less of them (lacking Bane, Judgement, Solo Tactics, Monster Lore, and the improvements to all of these).

It has no particular advantage over the Inquisitor unless you think Breath of Life as an SLA is enough to get you to play the class on its own.

Actually, it even has worse casting - 4/4/4/4/4/1 instead of 5/5/5/5/5/5.

Zealot not only has no reason to be playtested, it has no reason to exist.

Taenia wrote:
Could you use Power Attack with Melee mystic bolt?

Why don't you read the feat first?

Power Attack wrote:

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

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Hm. First, it needs to say somewhere that you need to have a mentor to take this archetype; it's mentioned in the fluff that they fight alongside someone else, but having a mentor isn't actually required anywhere. Unless that's intentional.

Oath of Loyalty is pointless, IMO. A sidekick following his mentor's directions should be fluff, not mechanics. Any player who needs to be forced to have their character obey their mentor won't be playing a Sidekick in the first place. But it replaces Renown so at least I don't lose anything that I'd ever miss... or even notice.

I like luck pool. You'll want to specify that each point spent grants a stacking +1 bonus. The recovery method could be gamed by making a Perception check every round and/or casting Resistance on yourself and trying to save against it every round, so you'll want to gate the recovery somehow (maybe they can only recover 1 point per 10 minutes when not in combat?). It replaces Loyal Aid, which is fine, because a PC who stays in one area long enough will have a few allies regardless of any ally-granting class features.

Emulation is neat, especially gaining access to talents. Needing to meet prerequisites is annoying but kind of necessary. Would be nice if they could get two feats at 10th and three feats or two talents at 15th, with the action cost staying at a single move action.

Taunt is nice. Might want to say that the target is sickened until they attack the sidekick or until 1 round has passed, whichever comes first. Also this ability doesn't specify the level at which it comes online.

Harm's Way is alright but not particularly useful.

Take Up the Mantle isn't any good unless you change your mind about trading away the Startling Appearance chain.

Overall, the archetype is good. I'd take it for sure, but only because it gives up a mix of class features that aren't particularly great and gets some things that would be actually useful in normal play. The only things I'd miss at all are the Startling/Frightening/Stunning appearance line, and even those are very situational because it's not all that common for players to be able to get the jump on enemies that aren't just mooks.

Excaliburproxy wrote:

Warlock w/ Mystic Bolt:

[n/n-5] D=1d6+11; E(D)=14.5
Alchemist w/ Bombs:
[n] D=6d6+int; E(D)=21+int+(AOE splash) (if int is 5, one bomb is usually worth more than 2 rays given that the second attack is a -5)
Kineticist w/ Maximized Touch Composite Blasts [prelim]:
[n] D=36+1/2con; E(D)=36+1/2con (you get to make this for free as a full round action if you are mitigating burn well; this is better than the warlock if both hit)
Wizard with Scorching Rays:
[n-4/n-4/n-4] D=4d6; E(D)=14 (this will generally be more total damage than mystic bolt, but is also only a standard action)

Of these abilities, the Kineticist's is the most comparable (since it has "at will" use), and that beats the Warlock soundly. Perhaps that is okay given that at-will energy blasts are pretty much that class's schtick, but I think it is hard to argue that a Warlock can play a role as a major damage dealer in battle on mystic bolt alone.

The kineticist's is stronger, yes, but it also deals them 1 nonlethal (1 point of burn) per round at that level, since the Maximize metakinesis has a cost of 2. They can, however, use a move action to gather power and then attack with an Empowered Kinetic Blast at no burn cost, for an average of 31.5+0.75*Con. Still more than the Mystic Bolt's 29 damage (both touch attacks are going to hit in most cases), but Kinetic Blast is a core class feature of the Kineticist and Mystic Bolt is (nominally) an optional feature for the Warlock.

Personally I am advocating this as a fix for the Melee side of things. People keep saying that they should nerf down the Warlock side of things because the martial side of things are kinda weak, well I say buff up the martials with a Grit mechanic.

Wait, people want Warlock nerfed? That's stupid. Warlock is the only specialization that's actually good at the moment.

graystone wrote:
Going by this barbarian rage adds and rapid shot works (the only reason it doesn't normally work for a ray is the need for a full attack). I'd also think arcane strike should work.

Pretty sure you can't use spell-like abilities while raging.

graystone wrote:
So I'm clueless why it's been said rapid shot or arcane strike don't work as they seem to work with rays. It must be special rules for Mystic Bolts.

If it is special rules for Mystic Bolts, it needs to be called out in the ability description when UI goes to print. Personally, I think Arcane Strike should be applicable to Mystic Bolt like it is to all other rays. What's the design reasoning behind it not applying?

SmiloDan wrote:

Instead of being a wannabe inquisitor, what should the zealot's role be?

I propose they should be about guilt and forgiveness and redemption. I think they should have some diabolical-based powers, and seek justice as a way to atone for their infernal gifts. They do this by sacrificing their wellbeing for the sake of others.

In essence, they would tank. They would have an ability to draw the attacks of their opponents away from their allies and toward themselves. They would also have judgment-like abilities called wards that would protect them from these attacks.

Wards would be (almost) purely defensive, possibly granting DR/-, fast healing, bonus hit points and the like. Possibly bonuses to AC & CMD and saving throws. Energy resistance, and maybe even fire shield-like effects. I think an interesting ward would be gaining 1d6+Charisma modifier temporary hit points each round for 1 round, possibly increasing by 1d6 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

They would still get the Divine Training II-VI talents, but with spells taken from the cleric/oracle class list. Keep the Divine Training, Discern Lies, Domain, Life Ward, Penance Gaze, Stalwart, Stern Gaze, and Track talents, but add more that can emphasize divinations, preaching, and protecting the weak. They shouldn't be trying to re-build the cleric, druid, inquisitor, oracle, or paladin, but doing something divine and different.

Maybe an ability that heals others by causing non-lethal damage to the zealot? Maybe the ability to add her Charisma modifier to hit point total, Fortitude saves, and CMD too? Maybe a way to use the Intimidate skill to goad opponents into attacking her? Maybe a way to penalize opponents that do not attack her first? Maybe a list of bonus feats like Bodyguard, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and Toughness? Maybe they hear voice or have visions or premonitions; these can be used as wards (protecting the zealot from harm) and as ways to guide the zealot to where she can what she does best.

I also picture the zealot as being particularly potent against foreign faiths, rival divine agents (both mortal and supernatural), and other heretics. She would be a temple raider, a sacrifice rescuer, a relic hunter, a ritual disrupter. She would spread her faith in secret, hiding from the theocratic powers that be, and also working directly against them in vigilante role. She might have a way to disrupt Channel Energy, be particularly adept at countering divine magic, and also have specific resistances to hostile divine magic.

I think there should be enough interesting choices for Divine Training II-VI to not be the obvious options.

I like this concept. I want to see it implemented somehow. But I don't want to see it as part of the Vigilante. Dual Identity makes zero sense with this idea.

That's a systemic issue with the Vigilante; the dual identity mechanic and its follow-ups will always feel tacked on to the specializations, which are the real mechanical core of this class.

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Imbicatus wrote:

Are mystic bolts a part of any fighter weapon group?

Do Mystic Bolts benefit from Inspire Courage?

How about Divine Favor?

How about Unchained Barbarian Rage?

Hm. Let's see.

Are ranged touch spell-like abilities part of a fighter weapon group?
Do characters benefit from inspire courage with ranged touch spell-like abilities?
You get the benefit to attack rolls because that applies to all attack rolls. It's a weaponlike SLA, so you get the bonus to damage, too.
Can characters benefit from divine favor with ranged touch spell-like abilities?
Yes. See above.
Can characters use spell-like abilities during Unchained Barbarian Rage?

Mystic Bolt isn't its own weapon type. It's spell-like, so it resolves as a spell. Anything you can do with Acid Splash you can do with Mystic Bolt. See this thread for more on weaponlike spells.

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:
Can you TWO Weapon Fight with Mystic Bolts.. I.e each hand has Mystic Bolts.

That's already been resolved elsewhere. You can't TWF with Mystic Bolt and Mystic Bolt, but you can TWF with Mystic Bolt + another weapon.

rainzax wrote:

Maybe Warlock should have spellcasting divorced from Talents, set up as a 4-level caster instead.

Could Extra Vigilante Talent be justified then?

Or maybe the Warlock and Zealot get proper 6th-level casting and give up half of their talents automatically. Then there wouldn't be any casting-advancing talents.

James Gibbons wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
James Gibbons wrote:

I wonder why they felt a level restriction was nesessary?

It would be the most powerful unlimited ammunition low level option i guess (the other being sling?)

Nah, the kinetic blast takes that place I think.
What is kinetic blast? I've seen it referenced a few times across these forums but I can't find what it is anywhere.

It's a class feature of the Kineticist, from Occult Adventures (it'll be out this summer). It's basically the 3.5 Warlock with an elemental fluff (think avatar: the last airbender). Kinetic Blast is a ranged touch that deals 1d6 per odd Kineticist level (1d6 at 1st, 2d6 at 3rd, etc). No iteratives with it, though, which is dumb.

Protoman wrote:
Dobreev wrote:
I've run with enough pre-Unchained eidolons to know that all the attacks don't really need to hit... just most.
Thankfully those eidolons are now an endangered species. Let's hope they get wiped out.

That won't happen, actually. Unchained Eidolons can have the same number of natural attacks, and still get access to the Pounce evolution. The only thing that Pathfinder Unchained actually managed to fix about the Summoner was the spell list. They even let Master Summoner remain an option, because that archetype was totally balanced.

LoneKnave wrote:

I was quite sure you can't apply conductive to ammo, but on second glance, this does not seem to be a thing.

Okay, so you take 3 levels of cartomancer witch, as her spell deck cards return instead of getting destroyed, saving you a massive amount of dosh, and this also gets you deadly dealer. and you can even use it to deliver touch spells, along with conducting a blast.

Warlock/witch sounds quite fun.

Ooh, nice idea. It comes online at level 7, though (Warlock 4/Witch 3). Which is another reason why Mystic Bolt shouldn't have a level restriction.

I don't think four separate classes are necessary, only two.

One class would be the Vigilante:
-at 1st level, they choose to have either full sneak attack (proper sneak attack, not this Hidden Strike nonsense) or full base attack bonus (maybe with a much slower sneak attack progression)
-can choose talents from both the Avenger and Stalker list, probably with some buffing/consolidation done to the talents
-gets the Dual Identity stuff as class features

The other would be the Warlock:
-same chassis as the Vigilante (d8, average BAB, 6+Int skills, good reflex/will)
-gets proper 6th-level prepared casting from the sorcerer/wizard list
-has access to an expanded version of the current Warlock talent list
-gets core class features that support their magical abilities
-would also have an archetype that grants hexes and uses the witch list, so every full-caster has a 6ths-casting equivalent

Then a number of archetypes (and a Variant Multiclass) could be written that grant the Dual Identity stuff to other classes.

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I definitely agree with you, Helcack. However, it's worth noting that combining all the talents into one list doesn't let a character get more than one type of casting - the abilities that grant casting to begin with (Arcane/Divine Training 1) are base abilities, not talents. Same goes for Hidden Strike and full BAB.

Helcack wrote:
You can make a character with 6 level arcane/divine and 9 level of the other one with on average d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 6 SP/lvl, and 1 good save who also has class features easily with prestige classes.

I'm skeptical but curious about this. Let's see a build that does all that.

Insain Dragoon wrote:

Nah the best idea I could see coming to fruition is scrapping Avenger and Stalker and somewhat combining them.

Make this "Batman"
In current media Batman is a strong and quick guy wearing heavy armor like a second skin and still capable of retreating silently into the shadows at a moments notice. You know what that sounds like to me? Avenger and Stalker combined. The Avenger can't even hide in plain sight. The Stalker can't even perform close quarter martial arts (Grappling, dragging, tripping, ect) properly. Both of these are Batman tricks. The Avenger and Stalker are incomplete when separated.

But I dont wanna be Batman!
Well you don't have to. The Zealot and Warlock are not Batman. If the dev team makes more specializations those wont be Batman either. So just let this one be Batman. Also there are plenty of other classes that fulfill whatever role you're thinking of as a counterargument.

I would hardly call this light or medium armor

Same with this

I definitely agree about combining Avenger and Stalker. More on that below.

To be entirely honest, I think the best way to fix this class and concept would be to do the following:
1. Eliminate the Warlock and Zealot specializations.
2. Allow Vigilantes to select from both the Avenger and the Stalker lists. At 1st level, they choose either full BAB and sneak attack +1d6 at levels 1/5/9/13/17 or average BAB and sneak attack +1d6 at every odd level. Maybe give them a grit or panache pool or something.
3. Make Warlock into a class of its own, with proper 6th-level spellcasting, a bigger talent list, and core class features that actually support their magic use. Put it in a different book. This would fill the currently-open niche of a 6th-level casting class that uses the full sorcerer/wizard list. Maybe it could have an archetype that gets hexes and uses the witch list, so every full caster has a 6ths-caster to match. Zealot doesn't need its own class, because it's a clone of the Inquisitor with a few tweaks.
4. Make a bunch of archetypes that grant dual identity and the subsequent disguise abilities to most if not all other classes. Fighters give up Armor Training (and maybe their 1st-level feat), Wizards lose Arcane Bond (and maybe the 5th and 15th level feats), Clerics only get one domain, etc. The current Zealot and Warlock specializations could be represented by archetypes for the Inquisitor and whatever class results from step #3.

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Seriously, making us choose between it and Arcane Training II at 4th level is mean.

What's the reasoning behind the level restriction anyways? I don't see any possible balance problems with opening it up for 2nd-level Vigilantes.

Milo v3 wrote:

And I see this in the middle of the first playtest battle (frightening appearance is very fun even if it's for one round).

hmmm... Being able to stealth even against darkvision is a nice ability, the moving along walls sounds delightfully creepy, and it still lets the warlock use it's mystic bolt and spells. I'd prefer if it was more than once per day, but it is a playtest so it's sensible to be cautious with incorporeality.

Well, it doesn't let them cast. But there's nothing prohibiting (Sp) or (Su) abilities, so Mystic Bolt is still in.

I agree about the uses/day. Maybe it can be used in 1-round increments? If that's a bit much it could be kept at 1/day for levels 6-13 and become usable in 1-minute increments from level 14 onwards.

Overall, though, definitely a fun ability. I'd take it on a Warlock for sure. Thanks for sharing it with us, Mark!

Edit to add: I got ninja'd by the man himself, suggesting the very same thing as I thought of :D

The black raven wrote:
Extra Anchovies wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
They really need to get rid of the whole "you lose your abilities in social mode" rule. It causes more problems than concepts it helps to create.
Strongly agreed. The same effects can be created by having a character just refrain from using their abilities when in social form.
What then should be the penalty for not refraining ? Some kind of Ex-Vigilante clause ?

No. No penalty at all. What I was saying was a character should be able to access their talents when in social form, and if the character wants to keep their powers secret they can just not use those talents in social form.

The black raven wrote:
Way I read the blog's comments, Dev said that it was ONE mystic bolt each round and that's it. You can still make other attacks in the round, as long as they are not mystic bolts.

Oh geez. If this happens I won't like any of the specializations.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Two alignments in one brain??!?!? I can't truly grasp the two alignment concept... really they should have a real alignment and perhaps their mundane/social alias should "pretend" to be a different alignment for the sake of blending into the society they live in, but to have two separate alignment in one brain just borders too much on multiple identity disorder to me... or maybe that's the point? I mean oracles have "curses" and this vigilante, well, he's just bat s@#% crazy and you have to accept it? if not, make it "Vigilante have one true alignment, but they can pretend to be any one other alignment within one step of their true alignment for the purpose of spell effects, alignment detection, and so on."

I definitely agree. Having two alignments is much too complicated. Your suggestion works much better.

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Ravingdork wrote:
They really need to get rid of the whole "you lose your abilities in social mode" rule. It causes more problems than concepts it helps to create.

Strongly agreed. The same effects can be created by having a character just refrain from using their abilities when in social form.

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Alexander Augunas wrote:
It might be better to bake the whole spells per day class bit into the 1st level arcane training / divine training ability and power up the avenger and stalker abilities to compensate.

Agreed. My personal suggestion is to give the Warlock and Zealot full 6th-level casting (ending at 5/5/5/5/5/5 spells per day) and make them give up their 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level talents.

Mechalibur wrote:

This is also bad for most urban adventures, which would probably start in a metropolis or similarly large environment.

My suggestion for the ability would be to allow an option to affect a certain sized community among a city. For example, when you get renown at 3rd level, allow it to affect a district or neighborhood among the city with around 200 people. This would work out well if the PCs sort of have a go to place for downtime after their adventures.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works already, actually. There's nothing that I've read that specifies that a large city can't be made up of smaller communities, each with their own geographical or demographic qualities (e.g. the north side slums or the gnomish district).

Samasboy1 wrote:

Yes, the requirement to keep taking Arcane/Divine training feels clumsy.

Not being able to take casting PrCs is a disappointment.

The Warlock or Zealot seem made for concepts like cult leader, outlaw priest, schismatic, or similar ideas.

But you can't take advantage of Demoniac or Diabolist for you secret fiendish cult master, you couldn't take Dissident of the Dawnflower for your hidden Taldane worshipper of Sarenrae, and if you want your secret member of the Grey Gardener's to actually take the prestige class you're boned.

This is easily fixed, though - have the caster specializations give up the 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th-level talents automatically, in exchange for a proper, normally-scaling 6th-level casting progression.

Kyrrion wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Let's face it, many of the talents should be put into a "general" category accessable by all specializations, or else should be repeated among multiple specializations.
I wholeheartedly agree with the "General" category. Does anyone else feel like the specializations might as well just be archetypes?

The two casting specializations might work better as archetypes: take away the 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level talents, and the base ability, in exchange for a proper 6th-level casting progression plus access to the relevant talents.

Milo v3 wrote:
Tels wrote:

I have not yet read the full document. Been ill and passed out after reading the Warlock title.

In my opinion these are a good thing. Slow fall is too weak to be acceptable as a whole talent, and fighter + ability to do more than just stabbing people is a good thing. Fighter shouldn't be used as a measuring stick.

Agreed. The only time when fighter should be measured against is for damage numbers.

Milo v3 wrote:
Edit: I hope that the warlock gets so artificer stuff in the end, magic a gadgeteer is difficult right now but having a talent that gave a item crafting feat as a bonus feat in the same vein as the avengers combat talent would be useful.

It would be cool to see an "inventor" specialization where they get an alchemy progression, can take bombs as a talent (Warlock would lose access to bombs) and get a bunch of cool crafting stuff.

Blueskier wrote:

I'm thinking of 2w fighting with a dervish dancing +1 conductive scimitar and the bolt as the off hand attack. It should work, right?

Edit: what about Power attack and Risky striker with a melee bolt? They're kosher, right?

By RAW: Power Attack no (doesn't work with touch attacks), Risky Striker yes.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Extra Anchovies wrote:
That's pitifully bad. The casting specializations should have the full 5/5/5/5/5/5 of the other 6ths-casters.
That's spells prepared the way Arcanists do, meaning they can actually cast way more spells than that per day (6/6/6/6/5/5 by 20th, actually). They can cast that one 6th level Spell they get 5/day by 20th level...and switch it per day.

You're mixing up spells prepared and spells per day. The 6/6/6/6/5/5 is spells prepared, the 4/3/3/3/3/2/1 is spells per day.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Those numbers are spells prepared the way Arcanists do, meaning they can actually cast way more spells than that per day (6/6/6/6/5/5 by 20th, actually). They can cast that one 6th level Spell they get 5/day by 20th level...and switch it per day.

You can Cold Ice Strike 5/day (before Int bonus spells) at 20th, if you like.

No, actually. The 6/6/6/6/5/5 is spells prepared, the 4/3/3/3/3/2/1 is spells per day.

Zwordsman wrote:
I do think that taking it for another element should open up the abilit ty TWF with it. though i can see the dangers of that for sure

Mystic Bolt TWF would indeed be awesome.

But what are the dangers? Sure, they're touch attacks, but that means no Deadly Aim so between that and the average base attack bonus, it balances out (easier to hit, less damage). Any moderately optimized archer can put out a lot more than 1d6+level per hit from pretty early on, too. I can run the numbers if anyone wants me to.

Gisher wrote:
Paladinosaur wrote:
Also, I'm really confused by the number of spells it can cast. Is it supposed to be the same as spells prepared?

Here is my summary of the number of spells cast per day from another thread. This is different from the number of spells that can be prepared each day.


Warlock Spells Per Day

____________________1st____ 2nd____3rd____4th____ 5th____6th________Prerequisites__________
Arcane Training 1_______2______0______0______0______0______0________1st level Warlock, Int 11
Arcane Training 2_______4______1______0______0______0______0________4th level Warlock, Int 12
Arcane Training 3_______4______3______1______0______0______0________8th level Warlock, Int 13
Arcane Training 4_______4______3______3______1______0______0________10th level Warlock, Int 14
Arcane Training 5_______4______3______3______3______1______0________14th level Warlock, Int 15
Arcane Training 6_______4______3______3______3______2______1________16th level Warlock, Int 16

That's pitifully bad. The casting specializations should have the full 5/5/5/5/5/5 of the other 6ths-casters.

Paladinosaur wrote:

Thanks Anchovies.

I also can't figure out if a Warlock suffers Arcane Spell Failure Chance from medium and light armors.

They don't actually cast arcane spells (the type of casting isn't explicitly defined anywhere, but it's implied to be arcane). So by the current RAW, they can cast in armor. That's probably getting changed, though :(

Paladinosaur wrote:

I can't find the spells lists. What I'm I missing?

Also, I'm really confused by the number of spells it can cast. Is it supposed to be the same as spells prepared?

Warlock casts from Sor/Wiz list, Zealot from Inquisitor list.

The number of spells per day is determined by which talents you have. It's confusing and underpowered; they should just be given a normal 6th-level casting progression in terms of spells known/prepared/per day, and each casting talent should unlock the next level of spells, which they can start casting when they reach the right level.

LazarX wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
So far, just building a few characters, I'm not liking the class.
Have or did you actually PLAY any of these characters before passing judgement?

Theorycrafting and comparison to other classes (e.g. building an Avenger Vigilante, then building a Fighter, and comparing their numbers) can be just as helpful as actual play experience.

JRutterbush wrote:

How about this:

Create a table of spells per day just like other 3/4th casters. Then have each Arcane Training talent give access to its level of spells, using the spells per day table. So, for example, if you only ever take Arcane Training I, you're still gaining more 1st level spells per day as you gain levels, which makes it a better trade for other Specializations. If you take Arcane Training II and III, though, you'd get the full progression of 2nd and 3rd level spells from the table. If you never take IV, V or VI, you'll still gain more 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells per day as you gain levels, you just wouldn't gain any 4th, 5th or 6th level spells.

I think that would work pretty well, actually.

Agreed. Arcane/Divine Training I should still be automatically granted, but this would work nicely.

Huh. The casters should get to ignore failure for light armor, like all of the other 6ths-caster classes (Bard, Hunter, Magus, Inquisitor, etc).

FLite wrote:

On the other hand, is the very uniqueness a dead giveaway?

If I have someone who sometimes is a valid target, and sometimes is not, how long before word gets out that this is a defining characteristic of vigilantes?

I would rather it read: "Any attempts to scry or otherwise locate the vigilante work only if the vigilante is currently in an identity known to the creature attempting to locate him. If he is in an identity unknown to the creature, the spell or effect has no effect, revealing nothing but darkness as if the target was invalid or did not exist. had made it's saving throw."

Yes. This NEEDS to be implemented. Perhaps with a clause that no-save effects treat the target as if they didn't exist, but I don't even know if there are any no-save scrying effects.

QuidEst wrote:
They don't use two mental stats… at least, not really. The only thing tied to charisma is Frightening Appearance. Nothing in Warlock gives you any benefit for a decent charisma score beyond it boosting some skills. Warlock lets you play an Int-focused Vigilante effectively.

Hm, you're right. I guess I was overestimating the presence of Charisma in the class's abilities. Warlock is probably fine where it is with Int-based casting, then.

I'd rather they be Intelligence-based, in keeping with the other prepared arcane spellcasters. Arcanist uses both Int and Cha, but they can get by with only Intelligence just fine (since Cha is only for the arcane reservoir stuff).

Entryhazard wrote:
The number of spell slots is really underwhelming

I very strongly agree. The two caster options need to be able to get full 6ths-caster spells/day (i.e. starting at 1 and scaling up to 5).

Why does the Warlock cast from Intelligence but still have Charisma-based class features (e.g. Frightening Appearance)? Selecting the Warlock specialization should change the Cha-based stuff to be Int-based, in my opinion. Making them use two mental scores when every other specialization needs one mental stat (or even zero, in the case of non-social Avengers and Stalkers) is odd.

In their current state, the casting progressions are really awkward and seem like they'd be annoying to play with. Why should a Warlock Vigilante have to wait an extra level for 3rd- and 5th-level spells? It would be better, in my opinion, if one of these two options were implemented:

Option 1:
Shift the spells known/prepared tables to match the standard every-three-levels progression of the other Bard-style casters, i.e. 3rd- and 5th-level spells became available one level earlier.


Reword the Arcane/Divine Training III and V talents (not the others, just III and V of each type) to the following (added or changed portions in bold):
[Arcane/Divine] Training III (Ex): The [warlock/zealot] vigilante gains the ability to cast one 3rd-level spell per day and increases the number of 2nd-level spells he can cast per day by three. A [warlock/zealot] vigilante must be at least 6th level, have [an/a] [Intelligence/Charisma] 13 or higher, and have the [arcane/divine] training II vigilante talent to select this talent. A [warlock/zealot] vigilante who selects this talent at 6th level does not gain the ability to cast 3rd-level spells until 7th level.
[Arcane/Divine] Training V (Ex): The [warlock/zealot] vigilante gains the ability to cast one 5th-level spell per day and increases the number of 4th-level spells he can cast per day by three. A [warlock/zealot] vigilante must be at least 12th level, have [an/a] [Intelligence/Charisma] 15 or higher, and have the [arcane/divine] training IV vigilante talent to select this talent. A [warlock/zealot] vigilante who selects this talent at 12th level does not gain the ability to cast 5th-level spells until 13th level.

Option 2:
Do away with the Arcane/Divine Training II-VI talents. Take away the level 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 talents of the Warlock and Zealot (so they only get five talents, at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18). The class table would still list all ten talents, but in the description of Warlock and Zealot, you could just add a sentence saying that they only get half as many as some other specializations. Grant them the full spells prepared/known progressions that they already have, but shift the 3rd and 5th level spells one level earlier. Give them a spells per day progression equal to that of the Bard, or Hunter, or any of the other Paizo partial-casters.

I'd prefer option 2, because it's simpler and more elegant, but option 1 sticks a bit closer to the class's current state.


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