"Amulet of Mighty Fists" + "Greater Magic Fang" = totally legit? +"Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes"=?


Rules Questions


Amulet of Mighty Fists

Greater Magic Fang

These two definitely work together by the reading; that is, I can use Greater Magic Fang to give up to a +5 enhancement bonus to unarmed strike, and then use the Amulet of Mighty Fists to give up to +5 in special bonuses (not enhancement bonuses, obviously). I just want to make sure that there is no special rule somewhere that says I can't do this, as it seems to bypass the normal pricing structure for weapons.

I'm making a Druid/Monk gestalt-variant, so this is a very potent combination if so. (As an aside, man the idea of an elemental monk is cool)

If that works, which I'm fairly certain it does, what happens if you throw in a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes into the mix? There's nothing in the wording that would disallow it, but it would let you get up to an equivalent of a +16 bonus on your unarmed strikes (you would lose one +1 due to the non-stacking +1 enhancement bonus you would need to put on the Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber

This is very similar to having a +1 Holy Cruel Merciful Greatsword and using Greater Magic Weapon on it. In each case it is perfectly legal as long as you keep in mind that enhancement bonuses don't stack.

Keep in mind that normal weapons could have a total of +14 with full str GMW so this isn't far off and further limited by the body wraps inability to apply the bonus to all attacks.


Well, getting a +16 total equivalent bonus is right out because you explicitly cannot have a total bonus greater than +10 by the general magic weapons rules. Aside from that, this seems legit. It would, essentially, be the same as having a +1 Flaming Freezing Longsword and casting Greater Magic Weapon on it. The +1 is supplanted with a (for the sake of example) +5, but the Flaming and Freezing are still there.


Umm im seeing both give enhancement bonuses and i thought u couldnt get above a +5 on weapons but once u get to +5 u can add equivalent enchants up to a +5.
Am i mistaken from reading both are enhancement bonuses?

Scarab Sages

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The +10 rule is broken all the time. Furious, Bane, and so on. You can go above +10 total bonus as long ad the bonus is not coming from the weapon itself.

You could have +5 in abilities from an AoMF, another +6 from the bodywraps, +5 from GMF, and a pair of deliquescent gloves for another +1 from corrosive.


Redneckdevil wrote:
Am i mistaken from reading both are enhancement bonuses?

Enhancement bonuses are the bonuses that add flat pluses to hit and damage with a weapon. Things like "holy" and "flaming" are the equivalent of +1 for the purposes of general item power and pricing, but they explicitly stack with enhancement bonuses.

And, yes, I just found, in the magic weapon rules, thanks to Kazaan:

Quote:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.

So, no combining all three for +16. But the amulet and greater magic fang do work well together.

Thanks!


When used to add special weapon abilities, those aren't enhancement bonuses but have "equivalent to such-and-such enhancement bonus value" for the purpose of determining price and total enhancement on the weapon. So, while Flaming and Frost each are equivalent to adding +1 to a weapon, they aren't, actually, enhancement bonuses in and of themselves. Basically, when it says, "+1 Longsword", it's a Longsword that adds a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls. If it's a +1 Flaming Longsword, it still adds +1 enhancement to attack and damage, but also applies the Flaming property and is priced as if it were a +2 Longsword.


Is there any RAW on what happens if you are using items that *would* grant more than a +10 bonus to an attack? For example, do you get to choose which of the bonuses apply, to a max of +10 equivalent? Or is there no RAW, and thus it's up to the DM?


Rudy2 wrote:
Is there any RAW on what happens if you are using items that *would* grant more than a +10 bonus to an attack? For example, do you get to choose which of the bonuses apply, to a max of +10 equivalent? Or is there no RAW, and thus it's up to the DM?

I think you are misunderstanding, you can't have on the weapon itself more than a +5 enhancement. Some special ab ilities can function to raise beyond this, such as bane or furious. You could even combine these to stack. For example, a barbarian wielding a +5 furious human bane weapon against a human would receieve a +9 bonus in total (5+2+2). So, just so you understand the other half on enhancements you have on a weapon don't add to the attack or damage bonus the weapon provides. Only enhancement bonuses do that.

As to whether or not the total effective bonus on the weapon can exceed +10, it seems to me that it can. But it has not be clarified enough. The closest is this FAQ:

Quote:

Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?

For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.

Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.

Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increate the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).

The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.

So, nevermind what I was just saying. +10 is a hard cap. If you a had a +5 furious human-bane flaming corrosive frost weapon (all special enhancements equivalent to +1) then when you acivated furious and the bane effects you would lose some of the other to bring it down to the +10 cap. I guess, as the user you get to choose.


Furious doesn't change the equivalent bonus of the weapon itself, even when active. That is, furious doesn't make a +10 equivalent weapon into a +11 equivalent weapon when it activates. Rather, it increases the actual *enhancement* bonus from +5 to +7; the weapon remains a +10 equivalent weapon. Same thing with bane.

The hard cap of +10 is to prevent the combination of things like the three things I mention in the title of the thread. That's clear now.

What remains unclear is what happens if you have multiple sources, such as the Greater Magic Fang, Amulet of Mighty Fists, and bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, which bring the equivalent bonus of the weapon above +10. There is a hard cap of +10 on equivalent bonus, so they can't all work properly. I'm wondering if the wearer gets to choose which ones do function, but there isn't any RAW to support it either way, I don't think.


No, if the bonuses increase because of the target type -evil/bane- to get to go above the 10.


You choose which order they apply.


Well, the point is moot in regards to AoMF with GMF because both have a max of +5. Bodywraps, though, have a max of +7 (and you must have +1 for weapon abilities). In order to meet the requirement that the Bodywraps must give its +1 in order to grant weapon abilities, I'd say you start with Bodywraps +1 and all abilities the Bodywraps grant. So you start with a +7 total bonus (+1 and +6 worth of abilities) and then can use up to +4 from GMF which goes "over" the +1 from Bodywraps to net yourself a +4 attack with +6 worth of abilities. This avoids awkward issues like trying to "decide" between separate abilities.

@Imbicatus: This FAQ states otherwise: +10 is the hard cap even including effects such as Bane or Divine Bond. So if you had a +4 Bane Brilliant Energy Longsword (total +9 equivalent bonus), the Bane effect which would normally up it to +6 is "capped" by the +10 hard limit so you'd only end up with a +5 effect against valid Bane targets. Same would apply to the gloves; they'd add Corrosive only if there's "room" for it.


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I disagree with the interpretation of the FAQ, in part. While bane/furious/etc. do increase the enhancement bonus of the weapon, as is clearly stated in the FAQ, I do not think it is meant to increase the bonus-*equivalent* of a weapon, though that part is murky.

When they say that the +10 limit is a hard cap, my interpretation is that they mean it is there to prevent things like a magus or paladin stacking +5 worth of abilities on top of their already +10 weapon, and things like that, not that when a bane weapon is used against the appropriate creature type, it suddenly loses some of its other abilities, which is silly.

Note the wording: "you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities"; no mention of bane or furious or the like. I admit it could be interpreted either way, though.


Oh, and the question of how you "decide" between separate abilities is an important one, because, for example, if I have a magus with the Bane arcana, it may be important that I be able to "override" one of the existing enchantments on my weapon, even if I can't go over +10 equivalent.


stuart haffenden wrote:
You choose which order they apply.

Is this just how you would play it (which makes sense), or is there some ruling somewhere that says something along those lines?

EDIT: This question is actually quite important, because I can, say, have a monk with Greater Magic Fang for +5 enhancement, An amulet of mighty strikes with +4 equivalent in bonuses (say, Holy and Phase Locking), and then have a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes on it with four different kinds of bane. Even though I can't stack beyond +10, if I can choose the order in which they apply, I can pick and choose which of the bane abilities from my body wrap apply on the fly.


There are some complications with this.

Amulet of Mighty Fists works, giving a bonus to all natural and unarmed attacks, and can be enchanted with up to a +5 total equalivent of abilities.

Magic Fang does not affect unarmed attacks, only one natural attack.
Greater Magic Fang works the same but can give a +5 bonus to one attack, which can be made Permanent, but requires a CL of 20 for the +5.
Or it can give a +1 to all natural attacks.
Multiple castings and multiple permancies can be done on multiple natural attacks.

Body Wraps are a bonus to one attack a round (actually 1 attack per 5 of your BAB) which must be activated which means, according to the polymorph rules under which Wildshaping works, that they cannot be used while wild shaped.

Rule (from description of polymorph effcts):
Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.

I suppose you could have yourself wrapped after you wildshape as long as you're not shaped as a fire elemental and the wraps are sized correctly for your new form.

Of course, to use monk abilities with natural attacks requires two feats (weapon focus and feral combat) per natural attack, though it has been FAQ'd to allow all flurry attacks to be taken with the same limb or weapon.

A multiclassed monk/druid would need help to get the CL 20 needed for GMF.
And since his BAB will not reach +15 in 20 levels, he would only be able to use the bodywrap effect twice a round.
(While a 15th level monk has a BAB of 15 for the purpose of flurry only, it says this BAB counts for flurry only and not for other effects.)

At that point, your bonus would be:

+5 from GMF
+5 in effects from AMF
+6 in effects from Bodywrap (actually +7, but the +1 would overlap)
for a total of +5 to hit/damage and +11 equal in special abilities
(bane and such enhancements would have additional effects)
twice a round

All for about 1/3 of the WBL of a 20th level character.

edit: And I'm wrong about the gmf as Rudy2 comments.
I read the part about not changing non-leathal to leathal and got it wrong.


Reading the rest, but you're wrong about the very first thing: Magic fang can plainly apply to Unarmed Strikes, by the description of the spell

EDIT: Excellent point about the bodywrap of mighty strikes and activation RE: Polymorph effects; that did not even occur to me.

Since this is a gestalt-variant, I'll be advancing both druid and monk, and so the CL is not an issue.


Gestalt really helps for this.
Craft Wondrous to reduce the cost helps as well.

If you're going mythic, there's a rank 1 ability under hierophant that lets you take one form using wildshape and not count its use against your number of wild shapes per day.
There's also the mythic natural spell casting feat which allows you to use spell completion and spell trigger magic items on your person while wild shaped.
It doesn't help with the body wraps, but could come in handy.


If you had a weapon that already had weapon abilities on it, using an ability that ups your enhancement level (ie. Bane) wouldn't "displace abilities but it could run square into a wall that is +10 max. In the example I gave of a +4 Bane Brilliant Energy, you have a weapon that gives +4 enhancement, bane which is a +1 equivalent, and BE which is a +4 equivalent. Neither Bane nor BE will be displaced, but trying to add +2 to your +4 will run you into the +10 max wall because a +6 Bane BE weapon would have an equivalent value of +11. So, instead of granting the full +2 from Bane, it grants as much as it can to get you up to a total of +10 and you end up with an, effective, +5 Bane BE weapon. Weapon abilities would clearly count as "other unusual abilities". So I guess the only situation in which this would arise would be a combination of AoMF and Bodywrap where the AoMF gives +5 worth of abilities and the Bodywrap gives +6 worth of abilities. You can't have +11 worth of abilities, period and the Bodywraps must contribute their +1 so you have, effectively, +9 worth of abilities out of +11 if you want any of the abilities off the Bodywraps. I'd say that since the AoMF is "always on" but the Bodywraps need to be activated per hit, all of the abilities from AoMF apply de facto, then the +1 required by Bodywraps, leaving you with +4 out of the +6 Bodywrap abilities. It's a corner case without clear precedent so it's a matter of table variance how it is handled. Here's how I'd do it:

Lets say you have 6x +1 abilities on the Bodywrap. You can get up to +4 from those abilities in this example. Put the 6 abilities on scraps of paper and pull them from a box until you get your +4 allowance. So you effectively get a random 4 out of the 6 each attack. If some of the abilities are higher than +2 and you don't have "room left", simply kick that paper out of the box and re-draw until you get an ability you can use.

PS: Feral Combat Training only applies to a single natural weapon and it is not designated as a feat you can take more than once. So if you had Claws, Bite, and Tail, you could only take FCT for one and only one of them.


Again, I disagree with your interpretation of the FAQ RE: Bane, but I think we may have to agree to disagree about that. While it's somewhat unclear, I don't think there is any intention of Bane, even reading that FAQ, being limited to only giving +1 of its bonus; that's too convoluted to think that's what the intent in that rule is. Again, I think they are only trying to communicate that you can't use class abilities to add equivalent bonuses beyond +10, and I don't think bane is "unusual". *shrug*

I kind of like your random idea, but I think if I was running it at a table, instead I would have the player be able to change which abilities applied as a standard action (per the normal using a magic item rules).


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The original question was phrased to ask about both the +5 enhancement limit and the +10 equivalent bonus maximum. It explicitly addresses the +5 bonus in two separate cases; Bane which allows you to break the +5 enhancement limit and Divine Bond which doesn't. But the answer for the part of the question on the +10 maximum is a blanket statement; it's a hard cap. You can't interpret that term in any other reasonable way, especially since it doesn't similarly break it down to say that "weapon effects like Bane let you break the +10 limit but not class or character abilities like Divine Bond". It is all-encompassing.

Regarding the abilities, some do need to be activated by standard actions (ie. Flaming) so maybe any that are "always on" can be always on by default and any that need to be activated or only apply in certain situations need to be "swapped out".


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The key phrase in the FAQ in question is "The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities." And so, the question is whether the bane/furious ability becoming active actually changes the bonus-equivalent of the weapon. I contend that it does not.

A +5 dragon bane weapon, as used by example, has a +7 "enhancement bonus against dragons". This is distinct from saying it has a +7 enhancement bonus, or that its bonus-equivalent changes.

It's not a question that is answered clearly by that FAQ; I acknowledge that you could interpret it either way.

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Rudy2 wrote:
It's not a question that is answered clearly by that FAQ; I acknowledge that you could interpret it either way.

Usually this results in table variance. Avoid it unless the GM is static and signed off. Otherwise you may get frustrated if you don't take the conservative route.


Already checked a bit ago, and she agrees with my interpretation of the rule, so it's all good. Thanks, though.

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