I have tried to keep up with all the posts but have missed some, but....
Has anyone done any play testing of a Swashbuckler against a normal fighter built to be like a Swashbuckler? I'd be interested to see what things only a vanilla Swashbuckler could do that couldn't be done by a fighter designed to be swashbuckler-ish.
It depends a bit on what you mean by "built like a swashbuckler." I mean, if you're going off dex and neglecting str, dumping a lot of stat points into int and cha, using a rapier exclusively, and refusing to wear more than light armor, the swash is going to have better AC and do more damage... but still snap like a twig in the face of any fort save.
If you aren't arbitrarily handicapping the fighter's stats equipment though, they have better AC, do more damage until the pendulum swings up in the teens, and can generally replicate all of the swashbuckler's deeds with feats that don't have the same limits on their usage.
This rather long post becomes a side by side comparison if you make your way down to the bullet point lists. Tone's a bit over the top now that I read back over it, but I think it covers most of the bases.
It depends a bit on what you mean by "built like a swashbuckler." I mean, if you're going off dex and neglecting str, dumping a lot of stat points into int and cha, using a rapier exclusively, and refusing to wear more than light armor, the swash is going to have better AC and do more damage... but still snap like a twig in the face of any fort save.
If you aren't arbitrarily handicapping the fighter's stats equipment though, they have better AC, do more damage until the pendulum swings up in the teens, and can generally replicate all of the swashbuckler's deeds with feats that don't have the same limits on their usage.
This rather long post becomes a side by side comparison if you make your way down to the bullet point lists. Tone's a bit over the top now that I read back over it, but I think it covers most of the bases.
This post shows a build comparison between a sword & board fighter and a Swashbuckler at 6. The Swashbuckler wins that round almost flawlessly (Fort save is lower by 2 points).
This post compares a 6th level Strength Swashbuckler to a 6th level Dexterity Swashbuckler. In this case, the Strength based Swashbuckler wins in damage but loses AC, Touch AC, Initiative, Reflex Save, and some thematically appropriate class skill bonuses.
This post compares another pair of 6th level Fighters to a 6th level Dexterity Swashbuckler. But their AC is honestly too low for them to even be a part of the conversation.
...and yet no response to this post? Again, I think you overvalue things like reflex saves and initiative. AC I can see to a point, but if it was so great why do so many melee characters pick damage? Because the best defense is a good offense. Especially in the binary system that is d20.
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As a fun thought, coming off of my Swashbarian build earlier, I was thinking about how this might be done with a more thematic approach. I think that there is a really cool build hidden in here, so I would like to present it. This is a sort of disciple of Cayden Cailean.
Human Urban Barbarian 2/Swashbuckler 11
Traits: Fortified Drinker, Fencer
Str:16 (+2 belt, +1 level)
Dex:22 (+2 race, +2 belt, +2 level)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:16 (+4 headband)
Feats:
H: Combat Reflexes
1: Weapon Focus (Rapier)
3: Extra Rage
5: Extra Rage
6: Swashbuckler Bonus Feat(Weapon Specialization: Rapier)
7: Extra Rage Power
9: Power Attack
10: Swashbuckler Bonus Feat(Greater Weapon Focus: Rapier)
11: Iron Will
13: Signature Deed (Bleeding Wound)
Controlled Rage (21 rounds/day)
Courageous Weapon adds +2 to all morale bonuses so,
Rage Bonus: +6 dexterity
Rage Power (Liquid Courage): +3 to saves versus mind-affecting effects during a rage for drinking once, +4 for drinking twice.
Rage Power (Good for what Ails ya): By drinking, may attempt a new saving throw against: blinded, confused, dazzled, deafened, exhausted, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, shaken, or sickened.
Crowd Control
+1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC when adjacent to two or more enemies. +1 on Intimidate checks vs. crowds.
Deeds:
Derring-Do, Opportune Parry, Riposte, Recovery, Menacing Swordplay, Precise Strike, Swashbuckler Initiative, Pommel Swipe, Swift Feint, Targeted Strike, Bleeding Wound, Evasive, Subtle Blade
Panache Pool: 3
Gear:
+2 Furious Courageous Rapier
Celestial Armor (+3 chainmail/counts as light/+8 max dex)
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of alluring charisma +4
Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor (or tankard of the drunken hero)
Winged Boots
Cloak of Resistance +3
Ring of protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Gloves of Dueling
FROM HERE ON OUT ASSUME RAGE:
DEFENSES
HP: 131
AC: 34 (10, +8 dex, +9 armor, +2 ring, +2 amulet, +3 nimble)
Saves:
Fort: +12 Ref: +19 Will:+8 (With one drink, +13 vs Mind Affecting)
OFFENSES
Attack Bonus: +28 (+13 bab, +9 dex, +4 weapon, +2 focus feats, +4 training, -4 power attack)
Damage: 1d6 + 21 + 20 (+3 str, +8 power attack, +4 weapon, +4 training, +2 spec, +11 precise strike, +9 bleeding wound)
Full Attack: +28/+23/+18, 1d6+41 (15-20/x2)
Drink up and use controlled rage for a huge dexterity, AC is good, Saves are fortified a bit by Liquid Courage and Fortified Drinker, and you can drink to reroll saves against a lot of the worst effects out there. Damage is excellent... Your drinking horn is always full of mead and you can use it to get some cool effects.
So yeah... bit of a high level build, but it would work at early levels as well. Controlled rage is a great way to pump up dex, and with the Cayden connection, you fit really well thematically. Fortified Drinker (trait) gives you +2 to will saves versus mind effects for 1 hour after taking a drink, Liquid courage stacks with that, and Good for What Ails Ya lets you reroll saves that you do fail. So this helps the swashbuckler's generally terrible saving throws and at this level makes him a better combatant as well!
So, you're entire ranting post basically boils down to "Hey, being vague is bad, say something more specific"? And you don't recognize the irony in that argument? As you are not criticizing any thing specific, you're vaguely saying you didn't like how pointed the comments were? Seriously?
I didn't even really mean that I think it's a weak power (although I do), I just meant that I think more specific feedback is more useful than broad generalizations.
It basically boils down to "being vague is bad because it can lead to misunderstandings." I gave examples of things against which Parry didn't effectively defend in the hopes of showing the problem with being too vague; if developers hear a lot of feedback about "good defensive powers," it could send the message that the Swashbuckler's defensive capabilities don't need any work or, worse, that they should be toned down. Basically, saying how good opportune parry is while neglecting to mention that it's only particularly good in very specific situations is problematic. Opportune parry needs work if it's supposed to work against large groups, monsters, or really basically anyone who isn't a medium-or-smaller 3/4-or-worse BAB class fighting at close range without spells.
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It depends a bit on what you mean by "built like a swashbuckler." I mean, if you're going off dex and neglecting str, dumping a lot of stat points into int and cha, using a rapier exclusively, and refusing to wear more than light armor, the swash is going to have better AC and do more damage... but still snap like a twig in the face of any fort save.
If you aren't arbitrarily handicapping the fighter's stats equipment though, they have better AC, do more damage until the pendulum swings up in the teens, and can generally replicate all of the swashbuckler's deeds with feats that don't have the same limits on their usage.
This rather long post becomes a side by side comparison if you make your way down to the bullet point lists. Tone's a bit over the top now that I read back over it, but I think it covers most of the bases.
Thanks. I admire anyone who has been following every post in this thread!
As an aside, I had a thought about the whole parry/riposte issue and panache/AoO cost issue. (Noting that we have a Swash 4 in the RotRL campaign I am GMing).
Given the number of builds that go Crane Style to get the once per round "miss", what if the Parry/Riposte mechanism was altered to be similar to Crane Wing/ Crane Riposte. They both have the same game effect - an attacker that would have hit you once now misses you and you potentially can attack him in return.
Something along the lines of:
Level 1:
Parry - once per round while fighting defensively, if you have at least one panache point, you can parry an attack so that it automatically misses (no dice roll, no panache cost)) You need to be defensively focussed to parry
Riposte - if you parry then you can spend one panache to riposte. This also use up an AoO.
Level 3:
While fighting normally you can spend a panache to parry. While offensively focussed you can still parry but it will cost
Level 6:
At the start of your turn, give up your lower iterative attack to have a "spare" extra parry you can use any time before the start of your next turn.You can increase your defensive capacity but at a direct cost to you offensive capacity
Parry while not fighting defensively. If you want to parry more than one per round you need to spend a panache point per extra parry
Level 9:
While fighting normally you can parry once per round for free. You are a talented swordsman and getting in a free parry every few seconds is well within your amazing skills
Level ?:
Be able to parry attacks allies provided you can reach the attacker and you meet the other conditions for parrying.You are so skilled and combat aware that you can counter multiple attackers at once.
Rationale
Basically you can start off defensively and parry for free but as you go up in levels you get more options to parry - either while fighting normally or using up some of your offensive potential to boost your defences if required.
At mid levels you can boost your defense at the cost of one potential attack.
At high levels you should be able to parry and riposte virtually at will (provided you have panache).
At any level you can defend quite well with some panache in your pool but if you expend it then you will have to go on the attack to get more points to enable you to defend.
Anyway, that's my 2c worth :)
It depends a bit on what you mean by "built like a swashbuckler." I mean, if you're going off dex and neglecting str, dumping a lot of stat points into int and cha, using a rapier exclusively, and refusing to wear more than light armor, the swash is going to have better AC and do more damage... but still snap like a twig in the face of any fort save.
If you aren't arbitrarily handicapping the fighter's stats equipment though, they have better AC, do more damage until the pendulum swings up in the teens, and can generally replicate all of the swashbuckler's deeds with feats that don't have the same limits on their usage.
This rather long post becomes a side by side comparison if you make your way down to the bullet point lists. Tone's a bit over the top now that I read back over it, but I think it covers most of the bases.
Thanks. I admire anyone who has been following every post in this thread!
As an aside, I had a thought about the whole parry/riposte issue and panache/AoO cost issue. (Noting that we have a Swash 4 in the RotRL campaign I am GMing).
Given the number of builds that go Crane Style to get the once per round "miss", what if the Parry/Riposte mechanism was altered to be similar to Crane Wing/ Crane Riposte. They both have the same game effect - an attacker that would have hit you once now misses you and you potentially can attack him in return.
Something along the lines of:
Level 1:
Parry - once per round while fighting defensively, if you have at least one panache point, you can parry an attack so that it automatically misses (no dice roll, no panache cost)) You need to be defensively focussed to parry
Riposte - if you parry then you can spend one panache to riposte. This also use up an AoO.
Level 3:
While fighting normally you can spend a panache to parry. While offensively focussed you can still parry but it will cost
Level 6:
At...
The big problem with this is that many swashbuckler would then just ALSO take crane style feats... then a swashbuckler could automatically parry 3 attacks per round. I think that crane wing may have been a bit of a mistake on the part of the developers. It would have been fine as a "monk only" feat, but it gets thrown into a lot of builds nowadays.
I don't dislike parry as it is currently set up (by which I mean as an opposed attack roll), but I do think that it should be written differently. Primarily, it sucks to spend a point to parry and then have the opponent just miss all on his own. The decision to parry or not should probably come after the attack roll is made and the swashbuckler knows whether or not he is hit. With the severe limitation on panache points, this would be a very balanced ability even at 1st level.
This would actually be a BAD change if riposte were to stay the same because riposte is excellent, and it would be harder then to get a "successful" parry (since you couldn't parry weak rolls that already miss) BUT, since they are changing riposte into an immediate action anyway, this would work out for the best.
I also think that the -4 for a creature being larger than you should go or at least be changed to be "more than one size category larger" to give a little more leeway to the small swashbucklers out there.
I just want to say, though not really feedback on changes, that this class feels the most smooth. In otherwords, it feels like the best prepared class of all the ones in the playtest to us. There's very little I'd change with it, as right now it feels just about right.
There's also something to be said for using the same size modifiers for grapple checks, although that would be hard to word properly.
Changing parry to something that you can only declare after a successful attack roll is the suggestion I've been making too. It brings it in line with a well-tested ability that already exists (Mounted Combat), and leaves a rather narrow window where it's potentially useful (attacks that beat your AC, but not by so much you can't hope to beat them). This in turn means riposte loses the feature I still think is just plain abusive where you can get a free attack in if someone misses you by a mile, which hopefully reins it in enough to reduce the ridiculous costs involved.
There's also something to be said for using the same size modifiers for grapple checks, although that would be hard to word properly.
Changing parry to something that you can only declare after a successful attack roll is the suggestion I've been making too. It brings it in line with a well-tested ability that already exists (Mounted Combat), and leaves a rather narrow window where it's potentially useful (attacks that beat your AC, but not by so much you can't hope to beat them). This in turn means riposte loses the feature I still think is just plain abusive where you can get a free attack in if someone misses you by a mile, which hopefully reins it in enough to reduce the ridiculous costs involved.
I would just leave size out of it altogether... big things already hit hard and can out CMB/CMD you. No reason they should have an advantage here. It would actually be nice to see the small character getting the advantage (since they get +1 to hit vs -1 for large etc.) in this particular area/class. The swashbuckler is supposed to be good at handling big brute types. This would be a great example.
Alternatively, they could change parry into a "dodge" that uses the same language as Mounted Combat but works off of Acrobatics. Any chance to give a bump to dexterous swashbucklers is a good thing IMO. Although, I do prefer the idea of a skillful parry, I do NOT like that it is such a gamble when spending a rather precious resource.
After the hit is where this needs to go. I am far more okay with declaring precise strike before the attack, because that does not depend upon an enemy's variable roll... it is all within the swashbucklers domain. Nothing says frustrating like spending 10 panache over 3 combats on attacks that all would have missed you anyway.
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I'm thinking... Why are so many abilities restricted to "as long as you have 1 point of Panache"? Does that limit make anything more balanced or interesting? I don't think so. In practice, all it does is reduce your Panache pool by one, since spending it all makes the Swashbuckler pretty much useless.
This class needs some serious mechanical revision.
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This class needs some serious mechanical revision.
I quite agree, but unfortunately the Dev comments on the blog make it sound like they don't. I expect minor tweaks at best. Hope that I'm wrong.
When they're not sure whether or not they need to give weapon finesse at level 1 there is a serious disconnect between what the Devs are thinking and what most people on this thread seem to be thinking.
The short answer is "because that's how Gunslingers work," but on the other hand, Gunslingers work that way because one of their deeds is to keep themselves from falling out of the fight if their guns misfire. Here, yeah, it just ensures no gunslinger past level 3 will ever spend that last point. I'm still in favor of pushing the class to use more charisma though, so I'd really prefer not to have the sole reason not to dump it go away.
I quite agree, but unfortunately the Dev comments on the blog make it sound like they don't. I expect minor tweaks at best. Hope that I'm wrong.
When they're not sure whether or not they need to give weapon finesse at level 1 there is a serious disconnect between what the Devs are thinking and what most people on this thread seem to be thinking.
Yeah... "Investigating ways to give Weapon Finesse at an appropriate level" still sounds hilarious.
Too bad we don't get little to no feedback here, I really want to know what the devs' thoughts on the Swashbuckler are. I'd like to see at least some of our concerns being addressed... Cha as a dump stat, Str builds being more effective than Dex builds, those awful saves, no access to combat maneuvers, no actual mobility... Anything.
Sadly, the current mechanics for the SB do not reflect the class flavor at all. Honestly, read the class description and see if SBs get to do anything even close to it.
The short answer is "because that's how Gunslingers work,"
And yet we get Precise Strike instead of Dex to Damage. -.-'
I still don't get why the devs are so scared of Dex-to-damage. Dervish Dance and Agile weapons have been around for quite some time now, and we don't see Finesse builds taking over, Str is still the norm and still considered a far superior option. It barely compensates for fighting one-handed.
Here, yeah, it just ensures no gunslinger past level 3 will ever spend that last point. I'm still in favor of pushing the class to use more charisma though, so I'd really prefer not to have the sole reason not to dump it go away.
Yeah, I understand that... But honestly, right now, dumping Cha to the ground and grabbing a "Extra Grit/Panache" feat is a much better deal anyway. I'd really like to see Cha getting more stuff. We have seen so many great ideas in this thread, already. All the designers have to do is pick a few of them.
I quite agree, but unfortunately the Dev comments on the blog make it sound like they don't. I expect minor tweaks at best. Hope that I'm wrong.
When they're not sure whether or not they need to give weapon finesse at level 1 there is a serious disconnect between what the Devs are thinking and what most people on this thread seem to be thinking.
Yeah... "Investigating ways to give Weapon Finesse at an appropriate level" still sounds hilarious.
Too bad we don't get little to no feedback here, I really want to know what the devs' thoughts on the Swashbuckler are. I'd like to see at least some of our concerns being addressed... Cha as a dump stat, Str builds being more effective than Dex builds, those awful saves, no access to combat maneuvers, no actual mobility... Anything.
Sadly, the current mechanics for the SB do not reflect the class flavor at all. Honestly, read the class description and see if SBs get to do anything even close to it.
The short answer is "because that's how Gunslingers work,"And yet we get Precise Strike instead of Dex to Damage. -.-'
I still don't get why the devs are so scared of Dex-to-damage. Dervish Dance and Agile weapons have been around for quite some time now, and we don't see Finesse builds taking over, Str is still the norm and still considered a far superior option. It barely compensates for fighting one-handed.
Here, yeah, it just ensures no gunslinger past level 3 will ever spend that last point. I'm still in favor of pushing the class to use more charisma though, so I'd really prefer not to have the sole reason not to dump it go away.Yeah, I understand that... But honestly, right now, dumping Cha to the ground and grabbing a "Extra Grit/Panache" feat is a much better deal anyway. I'd really like to see Cha getting more stuff. We have seen so many great ideas in this thread, already. All the designers have to do is pick a few of them.
Well, you do get dex to damage.. you just have to wait until level 11 for bleeding wound, which is conveniently the same level when you can take Signature Deed. WHy can't this be done earlier or baked into the class? NO IDEA!
Why do they continue to write things like Bleeding Wound and Boar Style feats to be ridiculously confusing and not follow the actual normal rules for bleed? NO IDEA!
Seriously... having a bleed effect and a bleed damage type is ridiculous. Somebody needs to change that.
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Havn't heard from a dev. in quite a while. How much of our feedback has been constructive in your eyes? Don't want to beat any dead horses and a lot of folks are making the comparison between str and cha builds, as well as a comparison between other "core" builds and how they feel the swashbuckler lacks. Any thoughts?
The big problem with this is that many swashbuckler would then just ALSO take crane style feats... then a swashbuckler could automatically parry 3 attacks per round. I think that crane wing may have been a bit of a mistake on the part of the developers. It would have been fine as a "monk only" feat, but it gets thrown into a lot of builds nowadays.
Then make the Swashbuckler version work exactly the same as normal Crane Style feats and explicitly state you can't have both.
The big problem with this is that many swashbuckler would then just ALSO take crane style feats... then a swashbuckler could automatically parry 3 attacks per round. I think that crane wing may have been a bit of a mistake on the part of the developers. It would have been fine as a "monk only" feat, but it gets thrown into a lot of builds nowadays.Then make the Swashbuckler version work exactly the same as normal Crane Style feats and explicitly state you can't have both.
I made this suggestion a long way back, because Crane Style is so good that nearly all Swashbucklers will take it. It's so good that many will even dip Monk to get it and Snake Style, to make a character like this one.
The combat style would improve defensive fighting with a scaling bonus to dodge AC and a scaling reduction in the attack roll penalty, which also replaces Nimble. It would also be a good class feature to "unplug" for the Archetypes - Rapier/Dagger, Sword/Pistol, and Longsword.
Again, if you want to stop people from dipping, make the base class good enough that dipping won't be worth it.
Havn't heard from a dev. in quite a while. How much of our feedback has been constructive in your eyes? Don't want to beat any dead horses and a lot of folks are making the comparison between str and cha builds, as well as a comparison between other "core" builds and how they feel the swashbuckler lacks. Any thoughts?
It's a bit frustrating how little direct developer feedback there is in this thread next to say the ones for Arcanist and Hunter, but again, just because we aren't hearing anything about any of this stuff doesn't mean changes aren't being looked into. For instance, over in the Ask James Jacobs thread we have this extra bit of crypticness:
2) I was playing 6th level. My stats were Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 7, Cha 18.
3) I enjoyed it, but had a lot of feedback. I played a version of the class that's 2 steps adjusted from the public one, so I can't say much more about it for the moment.
For that stat line to be at all playable at that level, either he is REALLY easy to please, or some fixes are being played with. Either way, revised PDF's due out in not too long, so we'll see what changes.
"Two steps adjusted".
I'm guessing one of those adjustments involves Cha to saves because having a +0 Will save at 6th level is terrifyingly bad.
And a bonus to carry capacity because jesus JJ, why else would you inflict a Str penalty on yourself?
"Two steps adjusted".
I'm guessing one of those adjustments involves Cha to saves because having a +0 Will save at 6th level is terrifyingly bad.
And a bonus to carry capacity because jesus JJ, why else would you inflict a Str penalty on yourself?
Because JJ is the creative director and the character's stats felt right to him when placed that way? Just a thought.
Because JJ is the creative director
Objection! Relevance?
and the character's stats felt right to him when placed that way? Just a thought.
Might be. I felt it was more fun to make a big deal out of it though.
"Two steps adjusted".
I'm guessing one of those adjustments involves Cha to saves because having a +0 Will save at 6th level is terrifyingly bad.
And a bonus to carry capacity because jesus JJ, why else would you inflict a Str penalty on yourself?
Now, now... He probably has a Cloak of Resistance, so maybe his character had a +1 instead of +0... Not that it makes any difference, of course.
I'm also curious about how he managed to work with Str 8. Could it be that JJ doesn't use the Encumbrance rules? Or at least doesn't mind having his character encumbered all the time? With such a low Str score, it's unlikely that his character will be able to even carry his armor and weapon, much less his magical gear.
I'm also curious about how he managed to work with Str 8. Could it be that JJ doesn't use the Encumbrance rules? Or at least doesn't mind having his character encumbered all the time? With such a low Str score, it's unlikely that his character will be able to even carry his armor and weapon, much less his magical gear.
He's probably outfitted with muleback cords. It's a pretty cheap item for a level 6 character with a low strength.
I'm also curious about how he managed to work with Str 8. Could it be that JJ doesn't use the Encumbrance rules? Or at least doesn't mind having his character encumbered all the time? With such a low Str score, it's unlikely that his character will be able to even carry his armor and weapon, much less his magical gear.He's probably outfitted with muleback cords. It's a pretty cheap item for a level 6 character with a low strength.
Too bad they occupy the all-too-important Shoulder slot. Maybe JJ uses custom magical gear?
traveler's outfit - 6 lbs
mithral chain shirt - 12.5 lbs
mithral rapier - 1 lb
handy haversack - 5 lbsIt's a tight fit, but that comes to 24.5 lbs, 1.5 lbs under the light load limit of a strength 8 character. Assuming that he drops his pack at the first sign of combat, he could have his cloak, his belt, and a mithral buckler with 2 lbs of capacity to spare.
I'm not sure mithral is that common by 6th level... But okay.
Personally, I'd buy a silversheen rapier instead and not go anywhere without an extra rapier and a longbow.
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Havn't heard from a dev. in quite a while. How much of our feedback has been constructive in your eyes? Don't want to beat any dead horses and a lot of folks are making the comparison between str and cha builds, as well as a comparison between other "core" builds and how they feel the swashbuckler lacks. Any thoughts?
You may not have heard from me, but I'm here and reading. I consider all feedback constructive. It has helped us a great deal in the iterations of the updated classes, which are on the way.
You may not have heard from me, but I'm here and reading. I consider all feedback constructive. It has helped us a great deal in the iterations of the updated classes, which are on the way.Havn't heard from a dev. in quite a while. How much of our feedback has been constructive in your eyes? Don't want to beat any dead horses and a lot of folks are making the comparison between str and cha builds, as well as a comparison between other "core" builds and how they feel the swashbuckler lacks. Any thoughts?
And the Old One lies in slumber in his city of R'lyeh, deep beneath the sea. The great horror that sees man and waits for his return, dreaming whatever dark dreams can be dreamt by one so ancient. He will come, and we will be forever tainted by the madness that composes his form. The only choice left is to accept our fate, and serve him. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
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You may not have heard from me, but I'm here and reading. I consider all feedback constructive. It has helped us a great deal in the iterations of the updated classes, which are on the way.Havn't heard from a dev. in quite a while. How much of our feedback has been constructive in your eyes? Don't want to beat any dead horses and a lot of folks are making the comparison between str and cha builds, as well as a comparison between other "core" builds and how they feel the swashbuckler lacks. Any thoughts?
Looking at that grin on your avatar and thinking of all of our "constructive feedback"... scared for what you are going to do to us poor Swashbucklers...
;) actually, cant wait to roll up a new Swashie, thanks for all your feedback to us!
LOL. I think people will be happy with the new design. Solved some problems with the class, still have some things rolling around the skull about it, but I'm excited to see what people think and how it plays. James Jacobs used the new design in an internal playtest last weekend and had a lot of fun with it. He also gave me some excellent feedback for bits of last-minute fine tuning.
Thank you all for all the great and positive feedback. I really appreciate it. Keep it up when the new document hits.
And the Old One lies in slumber in his city of R'lyeh, deep beneath the sea. The great horror that sees man and waits for his return, dreaming whatever dark dreams can be dreamt by one so ancient. He will come, and we will be forever tainted by the madness that composes his form. The only choice left is to accept our fate, and serve him. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.You may not have heard from me, but I'm here and reading. I consider all feedback constructive. It has helped us a great deal in the iterations of the updated classes, which are on the way.Havn't heard from a dev. in quite a while. How much of our feedback has been constructive in your eyes? Don't want to beat any dead horses and a lot of folks are making the comparison between str and cha builds, as well as a comparison between other "core" builds and how they feel the swashbuckler lacks. Any thoughts?
Hmmmm. Sure...I guess. :-/
Just made up a swashbuckler to test out DPR. It's fairly vanilla, focused on dex and using a scimitar and dervish dance with some attention to AC.
Vanilla Swashbuckler
Human (Taldan) Swashbuckler 11
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 33, touch 24, flat-footed 23 (+8 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +4 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 92 (11d10+22)
Fort +12, Ref +18, Will +10 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3, deed: evasive, deed: subtle blade, evasion, uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 adamantine scimitar +20/+15/+10 (1d6+19/15-20/×2+11 Precise Strike)
Special Attacks deed: bleeding wound, deed: menacing swordplay, deed: opportune parry, deed: pommel swipe, deed: precise strike, deed: riposte, deed: targeted strike, panache
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +11; CMD 36 (36 vs. disarm, 36 vs. steal, 36 vs. sunder)
Feats Dervish Dance, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Greater Weapon Focus (scimitar), Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar), Weapon Specialization (scimitar), Signature Deed (Bleeding Wound)
Traits indomitable faith, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +21, Bluff +4, Climb +11, Diplomacy +14, Knowledge (local) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Perception +14, Perform (dance) +5, Ride +11, Sense Motive +14, Sleight of Hand +20, Swim +11; Racial Modifiers deed: derring-do
Languages Abyssal, Common
SQ deed: recovery, deed: swashbuckler initiative, deed: swift feint, swashbuckler finesse
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +4 Mithral Chain shirt, +2 Adamantine Scimitar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Cloak of resistance +3, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Ring of protection +2, 885 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Deed: Bleeding Wound (Ex) Spend 1 panache as free action to do bleed damage to creature struck.
Deed: Derring-Do (Ex) Spend 1 panache to add 1d6 when making Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check.
Deed: Evasive (Ex) While have 1 panache, gain evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge.
Deed: Menacing Swordplay (Ex) While have 1 panache, demoralize struck opponent as swift action.
Deed: Opportune Parry (Ex) Spend 1 panache and 1 AoO to attempt to parry a melee attack.
Deed: Pommel Swipe (Ex) Spend 1 panache to make attack with pommel of weapon for 1d6/1d4 damage.
Deed: Precise Strike +11 (Ex) While have 1 panache, bonus to ak/dmg w/ light/one-hand piercing weaps.
Deed: Recovery (Ex) When attacked, spend 1 panache to step 5 ft. and gain +2 AC vs attack.
Deed: Riposte (Ex) When parrying, spend 1 panache and AoO to atttack your attacker.
Deed: Subtle Blade (Ex) While have 1 panache, immune to disarm, steal, sunder on your swashbuckler weapons.
Deed: Swashbuckler Initiative (Ex) While have Panache, can use a free hand to draw a light or one-handed piercing weapon as part of the initiative check.
Deed: Swift Feint (Ex) While have 1 panache, as standard action, deny creature Dex AC bonus until start of our next turn.
Deed: Targeted Strike (Ex) Spend 1 panache as full-round action to make one attack targeting part of foe's body.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Evasion (when Panache left) (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 2nd level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts made against these weapons.
Uncanny Dodge (Panache left) (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
The DPR is using power attack, precise strike, and bleeding wound (which uses signature deed so it is free and always up). I tried without power attack, and it lowered the DPR (as one usually expects). I count the bleeding wound damage as non crit multiplied (even though that is not explicitly stated, but it follows from the fact that it is said to be precision). Also I did assume that weapon finesse will be granted properly rather than the current odd sorta fashion.
DPR comes to 72.9
This is ahead of a sword and board fighter of the same level (62), but well behind a two handed fighter(111). The AC is close to that of the sword and board, and well ahead of the two hander.
I haven't tried a strength build instead to see if you can do better using a two handed strength style. It is likely, IMO. Also I took advantage of the fact that charisma is fairly meaningless unless you spend a lot, so I didn't. Thus I simply wouldn't use any deeds with cost on the build. I suppose that sort of defeats the purpose of it being a swashbuckler.
This brings up for me a very pertinent question.
What sort of bleed is bleeding wound?
There seem to be two types in Pathfinder. Bleed damage and bleed effects.
For example:
BOAR STYLE:
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Intimidate 3 ranks.
Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.
versus
BOAR SHRED:
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Boar Ferocity, Boar Style, Intimidate 9 ranks.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent’s flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent’s turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style.
So, Boar style seems to do bleed damage right away but not on subsequent rounds. Bleed damage, then, is damage that some creatures are immune and that is not reduced by DR.
The Bleeding Wound deed reads more like Boar Style than a recurring bleed. So with signature deed, a swashbuckler should be able to add damage to every attack, BUT I can never really be sure. Some clarity here would be great... or even just attempting to avoid this bit of confusion with regard to bleed.
Boar style and Boar Shred is fairly well known to be ...not clearly written, so I wouldn't base any decision on it until the UC errata hits and clarifies it.
Drbuzzard, why do you have 0 Panache?
Seems that Signature Deed shouldn't allow you to use a deed if you didn't even have the panache in the first place. You're powering the deed with your panache.
But if you don't have the panache, why would you be able to, even if the "cost" of the panache went down?
A lot of their damage comes from Riposte, something that the main method of DPR analysis won't take into account.
Boar style and Boar Shred is fairly well known to be ...not clearly written, so I wouldn't base any decision on it until the UC errata hits and clarifies it.
Right... So I am suggesting that we jump ahead and get some clarity on bleeding wound before the ACG goes to print.
If you can use this multiple times per round to get instant damage, it is a great deed. If you can only use it once, then it is far less eniticing as a use for a panache point.
Taking signature deed to effectively get Dex to Damage will be a very big deal... So I would like for this to be cleared up nowish.
Drbuzzard, why do you have 0 Panache?
Seems that Signature Deed shouldn't allow you to use a deed if you didn't even have the panache in the first place. You're powering the deed with your panache.
But if you don't have the panache, why would you be able to, even if the "cost" of the panache went down?
A lot of their damage comes from Riposte, something that the main method of DPR analysis won't take into account.
Panache is equal to charisma modifier (minimum 1), so he would still have that all important 1 point. Personally, I would drop a feat on Extra Grit(panache) to get up to 3, since with 1 point you are basically locked out of using any deeds.
Ah, I hadn't caught the mCha (min 1) bit.
So i just looked up the Boar Style rules thread and it says its answered in the FAQ... but no where i can see, how did that ruling turn out?
Heres hoping they both come out as Fluff descriptiors for untyped bonus damage :)
Ummm... answered in what FAQ? There is nothing in the UC FAQ that I can see... and I have been hoping to get a clarification on those feats for a while now.
My interpretation is that there is a separation between bleed damage (the type of damage dealt by an ongoing bleed effect which ignores DR and cannot be applied to certain things like elementals) and a bleed effect (which deals recurring damage that occurs at the start of the target's turn and can be stopped with magical healing or a heal check)
Is this correct? No idea! Could be... and it makes a few things work better... but some real clarity would be good here, because I have no actual rules to point to for my interpretation.
LOL. I think people will be happy with the new design. Solved some problems with the class, still have some things rolling around the skull about it, but I'm excited to see what people think and how it plays. James Jacobs used the new design in an internal playtest last weekend and had a lot of fun with it. He also gave me some excellent feedback for bits of last-minute fine tuning.
Thank you all for all the great and positive feedback. I really appreciate it. Keep it up when the new document hits.
Is pommel strike getting rewritten for clarity in the next PDF? It's the one deed I really don't want to see any changes to, but there is a serious need for clarity on exactly what bonuses apply to the attack and maneuver.
So this class practically obseletes Duelist? Good to know. I was hoping to make a two weapon fighter swashbuckler, but missing out on +level to damage seems like a huge penalty for not wanting to be a base class Duelist. There aren't many reasons to want to take Duelist anymore now that this exists. Most of the other unique things that Duelist has aren't that great or can be replaced by the bonus feats that Swashbuckler gets if you still want them. I'd love to have an option to make a two-weapon fighting swashbuckler, and I'd be super appreciative if the class wasn't practically forced to play with the exact same weapon style as a Duelist.
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I ain't got time for two different kinds of bleed.