Swashbuckler Discussion


Class Discussion

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Question about Targeted Strike: Torso or Wings...

Spoiler:
Targeted Strike (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action
the swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to make a
single light or one-handed piercing weapon melee attack
that cripple’s part of a foe’s body. The swashbuckler
chooses a part of the body to target. If the attack succeeds,
the target takes the following effects, depending on the
part of the body targeted. If a creature doesn’t have one
of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted.
Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune
to these effects. Items or abilities that protect a creature
from a critical hit also protect a creature from a targeted
strike.
• Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the
attack but drops one carried item of the swashbuckler’s
choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items
held in a locked gauntlet aren’t dropped on a hit.
• Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and
is confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.
• Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and
knocked prone. Creatures with four or more legs or that
are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect.
Torso or Wings: Targeting the torso causes the target to
be staggered for 1 round.

The other 3 mention damage and hitting, but this one does not. Should I assume it does normal damage on hit and then staggers, or is it an autohit with no damage, or somewhere in between?


The rogue doesn't really make a good knife fighter.. He makes a good use of fienting which while used in knife fighting isn't quite the same. I want a knife fighter like Del Toro and Tommy Jones in The Hunted. Special forces knife fighting that the Apache teach the army as opposed to 'Look over there a seagull!' *kidney stab*.
The sword saint admittedly annoys me mostly because theres no reason not to put him in as heavy a suit of armor as possible which to me is a wonky thing for a duelist.
I like my mechanics to whenever possible to mirror help and reward flavor. Sure I can always house rule and change stuff but it makes my players uncomfortable so i try to avoid it.
Truth be told I like playing big smashy high strength dudes most. I recognize the awkward arbitrary nature of stats as D&D set them up, I don't even dislike them despite the places where stuff just doesn't work how it does in reality, that doesn't change the fact I'd like to see a dex/speed fighter be a doable thing and not feel like its going to lose out. They put things in the game that are so clearly sub par choices as to be laughable <I'm looking at you monk vows.> 'Monks will only take them if it fits the character though so that's fine.' is an excuse style that is only ever used to justify sub par options as opposed to the might be to good ones and that kind of leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Especially when one or two sentences along the lines of 'This character takes strength penalties to attack and damage as normal.' Would obliviate most of the "overpowering" that could be done from making the AC stat the Attack stat for one class. Admittedly I only ever lurk around here during playtests so I havent actually seen first hand anything the Devs have said about dex dam being to strong but I've seen more then a few posts of optimized casters soloing some of the appropriate level one shot adventure things so personally I cant fathom the problem with it..


It's definitely an attack (that's a statement from the start), but as it doesn't have the clause from the other ones it seems it does no damage.


Question about Pommel Swipe:

Spoiler:
Pommel Swipe (Ex): At 7th level, the swashbuckler can as
a swift action spend 1 panache point to make a surprise
melee attack with the pommel of a light or one-handed
piercing weapon she is wielding. The swashbuckler is
considered proficient with this weapon attack. The attack
deals bludgeoning damage, and gains a bonus on the
attack and damage equal to the enhancement bonus of
the weapon. The damage dealt by the pommel swipe is
determined by the size of the weapon being used. Small
weapons deal 1d4 damage, while Medium weapons deal
1d6 damage. Regardless of the weapon’s size the critical
multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the
swashbuckler can as a free action attempt a combat
maneuver check to knock the target prone.

Since it counts as a blunt weapon, none of the swashbuckler's other ability seem to count toward the attack including weapon training. Is this correct?


Playing around last night and discovered precise strike + quick draw + rapid shot = dagger throwing champion.


Whos_That wrote:

case and point, google the word swashbuckler, and see what you get.

1h and pistol, done.(they stated this will be an archetype)
scimitar, done.
Rapier, most common, and done.
dual wielding(less common, but still feasible)done.

Does anyone see anything remotely close to a 2h weapon?

Weapon choice is just one expression of what a swashbuckler, it is not a definition, just as a sports jersey is an expression of what an athlete is, but not a definition.

What is an athlete: Someone in peak physical condition who participates in sports.
What is a swashbuckler: An agile warrior who fights with skill and panache.

Can you possess the traits of an athlete even if you don't wear a sports jersey? Yes.
Can you posesss the traits of a swashbuckler even if you don't use a rapier/scimitar? Yes.

The traits of an "agile, charismatic fighter" that this class is supposed to be are not negated by using a weapons like the elven curve blade a longsword.

On a side note, if you google the terms "wizard" and "samurai", who will find that 99% of the former are old men with pointy hats, and 0% of the latter are elves with great axes, and yet in Pathfinder for some reason...


Huh... Why is a gun-wielding Swashbuckler an archetype? Wouldn't that just be a Gunslinger? The classes are incredibly similar.

Seeing how hesitant Paizo is of allowing Dex to damage, I'd be surprised if the gun archetype ends up being a viable class. Firearms are the absolutely worst weapons in the game unless you're a Gunslinger or Trench Fighter, I'm not sure Precise Strike will help much.

Oh well, only time will tell...

Sovereign Court

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Quote:
What is a swashbuckler: An agile warrior who fights with skill and panache.

I would add that a swashbuckler is an agile swordsman who fights with panache using light weapons and mobility.

Currently the swashbuckler doesn't have enough mobility, and personally, I don't think an elven curved blade should be an option out of the gate with them (it's not a light or 1-handed weapon, but rather a specialized weapon that can benefit from weapon finesse).


Saker wrote:

Question about Pommel Swipe:

** spoiler omitted **

Since it counts as a blunt weapon, none of the swashbuckler's other ability seem to count toward the attack including weapon training. Is this correct?

It is an odd one for sure. There needs to be some clarification here.

On the one hand, you need to use a light or one-handed piercing weapon to activate Pommel Swipe, but on the other hand, it seems like the weapon then transforms into a bludgeoning weapon.

The interpretation could reasonably go either way.
RAI considerations:

1. Requires a light or one-handed piercing weapon to use.
2. States that you are proficient with this attack, suggesting that this might otherwise be something like an improvised weapon attack
3. Alters the damage die, damage type and critical hit properties of the weapon.
4. ...But keeps the weapon's enhancement bonus.

First way of looking at this: So, with weapon focus (rapier) and weapon specialization (rapier), you are still attacking with a rapier, just a different end. E.G. I would declare this action by saying that I make a Pommel Swipe with my Rapier. Regardless of the damage type, the actual weapon being used to activate this ability must be a light or one-handed piercing weapon. If it fudamentally changes to the point where it no longer qualifies as such, then how can the ability be used? Therefore, the Pommel Swipe is a different type of attack mode, but every feat and class feature I have that applies to a light/1-h piercing weapon will still apply, because the weapon is still such a weapon.... it is just being used differently for this attack.

Other Way of looking at this: You are NOT attacking with a light/1-h piercing weapon. You are attacking with the "pommel" of such a weapon. That pommel has its own stats (damage die, threat range, critical multiplier, damage type). You are proficient with this pommel and it uses the same enhancement bonus as the blade attached to it, but it IS a separate weapon. YOu would declare this action by saying that you are making a pommel swipe with the pommel of your rapier. Unless your feats are in the form of Weapon Focus (Pommel), you do not receive their benefits, nor do you receive the benefit of any other deed or feature that depends upon the use of a light/1-h piercing weapon.

Either interpretation seems valid to me at this point, and that is a problem. Getting some clarity on this ability would be very useful, because how good Pommel Swipe is swings wildly depending on how you read it. It would be good to know exactly how it was intended to operate.


I for one expected that the hybrid classes would fit a much narrower trope than the classes they are composed of. For the most part, the core classes are relatively generic broad classes meant to fufill multiple types of tropes (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, etc). Hybrid classes are tropes that lie in the middle ground between those two areas. That classes like Investigator or Swashbuckler are narrow in scope doesn't surprise me at all.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Look, if you can't even Errol Flynn with a quarterstaff with this class, something has gone awry. Using an elven curve blade or a two-bladed sword or whatever is just the fantasy icing on the cake; the point is that those should be supported options based on a swashbuckler that has a sensible variety of combat options. If you can't use a halberd, the class leaves something to be desired in a Three Musketeers inspired campaign, whereas if you can't do longswords and quarterstaves, you can't do Robin Hood. I don't want to be stuck with The Two Musketeers, I want all three. :)

MMCJawa wrote:

I for one expected that the hybrid classes would fit a much narrower trope than the classes they are composed of.

I strongly disagree. Just finding the middle ground between two classes should open up all kind of creative doors. If anything, the hybrid classes shows how narrow some of the core classes are.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

@RJGrady: I understand the point you are trying to make along the lines of giving more of a fantasy setting and feel to the swashbuckler. At the same time the swashbuckler, much like the duelist, excells at using a one handed piercing weapon and nothing in their offhand or a buckler.
It's just what the class was fit for. I see your argument as asking for an arcane archer to be able to use slings because it fits that style that you are imagining.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It can be fit for whatever it is fit for. One of its parent classes is based on a gun.

The arcane archer is a prestige class designed to play up the elven affinity for both magic and bows. If it were a base class, available to characters of any case, there would be no reason to make it bow-only. I don't have any problem with an arcane slinger.

Also, enabling quarterstaves and halberds would not be more a "fantasy feel," it would be more of a swashbuckler feel.


MMCJawa wrote:
I for one expected that the hybrid classes would fit a much narrower trope than the classes they are composed of. For the most part, the core classes are relatively generic broad classes meant to fufill multiple types of tropes (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, etc). Hybrid classes are tropes that lie in the middle ground between those two areas. That classes like Investigator or Swashbuckler are narrow in scope doesn't surprise me at all.

Certainly one can see that the Venn Diagram overlap is always going to be smaller than each original circles. That doesn't mean that these classes need to be quite as narrow as some of them are.

Instead of swashbuckler, the Fighter/Gunslinger could have been a rather broad class containing the possibility of many different "paragons of a particular weapon style". A dirty fighting warrior with lots of underhanded tricks, for example, could have fit very well into this overlap, as could the obvious warrior using a blend of guns and melee weapons. Swashbuckler also fits, but I would prefer a broader version than the one that we have seen. Hopefully archetypes will help to broaden its scope.

The investigator is actually a much broader class. The name is a bit specific, but really it is an alchemist that has a greater focus on skills. There are so many options in that class that you could bend it many different ways to realize many different concepts outside of the "investigator/detective" trope. The swashbuckler is far more limited. The class has literally ZERO options baked in.... no choice in weapons, no choice in weapon training, no choice in deeds, no choices outside of skill points and feats really. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but it does seem far more narrow than it needs to be.


There are enough stories, movies, styles and whatnot out there to justify almost any kind of weapon being used with light or no armor and a finesse like level of skill. Just the Wheel of Time does it with two handed swords, short spears and... Mat's weapon is something between a spear and a naginata? i wouldn't say any of them are swashbucklers but if this is the dexterous fighter than this is the class everyone will look at for making those kinds of fighters. I wouldn't be upset for an archetype that gives up the "broad" weapon group of a swashbuckler for a dedication to one specific kind of weapon. kind of like how the Kensai gets proficiency and focus with any one weapon. In fact the Kensai is the closest i can think of to the light dexterous fighter under the current rules with their INT to AC. And they have to make due with 3/4 attack bonus and D8 HP. Also the whole spell stuff which some people dont actually want for their front line types.

Sovereign Court

RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way.


Whos_That wrote:
scimitar, done.

Huh? All the abilities require a piercing weapon, which a scimitar is not. Unless I've missed an update or something. I'd be relieved to be wrong; a Swashbuckler being able to use its abilities with a heavy pick but not a cutlass is laughable.

Googleshng wrote:
As it stands, the scope of the class is really narrow, yeah. The general design approach to it though largely seems to be based around that one Erol Flynn-ish concept and getting it to work right, at the expense of all else.

It still really doesn't do this, though. There's really no aspect of fighting using your environment, which is a pretty big part of nearly every swashbuckling character mentioned in this thread. Robin Hood kicks over tables to trip enemies, flings chairs with his off-hand, and so on; Jack Sparrow and Turner attack each-other as much with the blacksmith's shop as their swords. That's just one problem.

Kobash wrote:
RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way.

The point he's making is that there are archetypal Swashbuckling characters who use those weapons as their preferred weapons.


Knifechief wrote:
Whos_That wrote:
scimitar, done.

Huh? All the abilities require a piercing weapon, which a scimitar is not. Unless I've missed an update or something. I'd be relieved to be wrong; a Swashbuckler being able to use its abilities with a heavy pick but not a cutlass is laughable.

Dervish Dance


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Uggh... yeah, how is it that the swashbuckler has no abilities relating to difficult terrain?

Leap attacks, rope-swinging attacks, ignoring difficult terrain during a charge.

To the point about a swashbuckler "being able to use X weapon even though none of their features work with it"

Why shouldn't they be able to use a quarterstaff? Or an improvised weapon? Or a spear etc. as their chosen weapon? I can see how a one-handed piercing weapon really fits well, but if you make the class more about dexterity, a rakish personality, a tactical mindset over brute force, skillful tricks unavailable to other fighter types, wit, charm, bravado etc etc... then a ton of possible weapons also fit. Pretty much anything that can be seen as relying more on speed and skill than strength and force. So a Great Club, Greatsword, Earthbreaker etc, would not fit.. but a longspear, a sawtooth sabre, a spiked chain, a quarterstaff... sure thing.

And considering the void that exists where a dexterous martial class should be, it would be nice if the swashbuckler class were broadened to include these concepts.


Knifechief wrote:
Whos_That wrote:
scimitar, done.
Huh? All the abilities require a piercing weapon, which a scimitar is not. Unless I've missed an update or something. I'd be relieved to be wrong; a Swashbuckler being able to use its abilities with a heavy pick but not a cutlass is laughable.

From the Dervish Dance feat:

"You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability)."

This is a big reason everyone keeps saying the class just needs to get dex damage on its own. The wording of that feat is ridiculously complimentary towards this class.

Knifechief wrote:
Googleshng wrote:
As it stands, the scope of the class is really narrow, yeah. The general design approach to it though largely seems to be based around that one Erol Flynn-ish concept and getting it to work right, at the expense of all else.
It still really doesn't do this, though. There's really no aspect of fighting using your environment, which is a pretty big part of nearly every swashbuckling character mentioned in this thread. Robin Hood kicks over tables to trip enemies, flings chairs with his off-hand, and so on; Jack Sparrow and Turner attack each-other as much with the blacksmith's shop as their swords. That's just one problem.

Well, the class kinda needs a major overhaul regardless, but the clear intent seems to be "here's some cool stuff you can do in exchange for being crazy limited in your weaponry."

Knifechief wrote:
Kobash wrote:
RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way.
The point he's making is that there are archetypal Swashbuckling characters who use those weapons as their preferred weapons.

I find the situations where you want to pull a bow out as a mainly-melee guy, you want it to be a composite longbow with a nice str bonus so your hits really mean something. A swashbuckler can't really afford the feats to have a bow as a proper backup weapon, get deadly aim on it and so forth, and if you aren't prioritizing str, a straight 1d10 isn't going to make a huge difference. That sort of damage works best when casters and such are just trying to finish off wimpy mooks.

But anyway, I still say once the class gets to a point where it's working as intended, the way it's set up really lends itself well to supporting different weapons/fighting styles via archetype. Replace light or one handed piercing weapons (or "swashbuckler weapons" because I really think a specific list is the way to go) with whatever we're going for, replace deeds A B and C with X Y and Z. Tada. You have a crazy dance-y staff fighter or rigging swinging pirate or gymkata fighter or whatever.


Kobash wrote:
RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way.

I think there's a difference between have a lots of options but a prefered style of fighting versus have a lot of options and only having 5 weapons that allow you to use your abilities. I'm pretty sure the only ones that fit the bill are the dagger, short spear, short sword, rapier, and, oddly enough, morningstar.

No other martial class is so limited in options, except the monk and brawler, but that's because their shtick is not using weapons at all.


Ellis Mirari wrote:
Kobash wrote:
RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way.

I think there's a difference between have a lots of options but a prefered style of fighting versus have a lot of options and only having 5 weapons that allow you to use your abilities. I'm pretty sure the only ones that fit the bill are the dagger, short spear, short sword, rapier, and, oddly enough, morningstar.

No other martial class is so limited in options, except the monk and brawler, but that's because their shtick is not using weapons at all.

By my count there are 43 light or one handed piercing weapons.


Ellis Mirari wrote:

I think there's a difference between have a lots of options but a prefered style of fighting versus have a lot of options and only having 5 weapons that allow you to use your abilities. I'm pretty sure the only ones that fit the bill are the dagger, short spear, short sword, rapier, and, oddly enough, morningstar.

No other martial class is so limited in options, except the monk and brawler, but that's because their shtick is not using weapons at all.

It's actually broader than that. If I recall, the whole list is: trident, scizore, cestus, wooden stake, light pick, heavy pick, mere club, brass knife, spiked gauntlet, boarding axe, gladius, starknife, switchblade, spiked shield, and sword cane.

Not that I disagree with the actual point, just in the interest of being accurate.

Tels wrote:
Dervish Dance

Hm, I'd entirely forgotten Dervish Dance let you treat a scimitar as a piercing weapon. Still, not what I was hoping for; Dervish Dance only works on the scimitar and the cutlass is, technically, a separate item. It's still more viable for a Swashbuckler to wield a pick or trident than a cutlass.

Sovereign Court

Ellis Mirari wrote:
Kobash wrote:
RJGrady, a swashbuckler is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. He can use a quarterstaff, halberd, or longbow just fine. However, none of them are his preferred weapon, and as such he shouldn't get all the perks when using them. A Dex focused Swashbuckler would likely be pretty good with a longbow, even without pinache, and I foresee a Robin Hood archetype in the future that might be able apply it in some way.

I think there's a difference between have a lots of options but a prefered style of fighting versus have a lot of options and only having 5 weapons that allow you to use your abilities. I'm pretty sure the only ones that fit the bill are the dagger, short spear, short sword, rapier, and, oddly enough, morningstar.

No other martial class is so limited in options, except the monk and brawler, but that's because their shtick is not using weapons at all.

As opposed to the typical fighter who rarely specializes in more than one weapon and, up until 19th level, has only one other special ability (armor training) over a swashbuckler? Also, more than a few swashbuckler abilities do not require a weapon at all.


Tels wrote:


By my count there are 43 light or one handed piercing weapons.

For most abilities you can count

Bite, Gore, and Sting natural attacks as well.

"So, whats your swordsman school mr tengu?"

"Alfred Hitchcock style!" *peck peck peck*


Remember, Kobash, that while the Fighter may only specialize in one weapon, like a Swashbuckler, he has the entire weapons list to choose from to specialize in, where the Swashbuckler only has a certain subset of it.

Sovereign Court

I'm well aware, but the swashbuckler can use his abilities with that entire subset. If he looses his rapier he can do nearly as much damage with a dagger (and maybe even a pointed stick depending on interpretation).

Liberty's Edge

In exchange for a -2 to hit, you can also use inappropriately sized weapons with the Swashbuckler abilities. For example, a medium swashbuckler can use a small Lucerne Hammer. I think this loophole should be shut down.

Spoiler:
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.


VargrBoartusk wrote:


The other group wants a dex based melee class that they can use to emulate the umpteen billion styles of combat where finesse is more valid then brawn. The knife fighter, stick fighter the unarmored iaijutsu duelist that there really is no support for under the current ruleset. this character *IS* Dexterous <note the different enunciation>. This character class could be a swashbuckler or any one of a dozen other things.

One of my hopes.. above.. in bold


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The class does sort of fit the wandering ronin archetype, apart from having to have a shortsword instead of a wakisazhi.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

when ultimate combat came out I made a great duelist build using a monk. went master of many styles for boar/crane/serpent style. Took the combat expertise feats as well and then into duelist. Because the unarmed strike could be piercing by then it worked with the duelist abilities and had GREAT flavor.

Scarab Sages

Tels wrote:
By my count there are 43 light or one handed piercing weapons.

20 of those he needs a feat to use without penalty.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Bhrymm wrote:
Tels wrote:
By my count there are 43 light or one handed piercing weapons.
20 of those he needs a feat to use without penalty.

or a race choice? It really depends on what you want to do.

Tengu
With the sword training you wouldn't need a feat. It is all on how you want to build your character.

Silver Crusade

So, the swashbuckler is an hybrid between the fighter and the gunslinger right?

Both these classes has strong FORTITUDE saves.
But the swashbuckler does not.

Not sure I agree with that.

Let the ability build sort that out.
If I see my character as very resilient, I'll put some some CON to reflect that. If I see him more fragile, I won't invest too much in CON.

I think the saves of the swashbuckler should follow the classes it was based on.


Bhrymm wrote:
Tels wrote:
By my count there are 43 light or one handed piercing weapons.
20 of those he needs a feat to use without penalty.

Regardless, my mistake. There are more.

Even so... are you really going to tell me using a light pick is more thematically appropriate to the Swashbuckler than a European longsword is? Because the only argument I've seen so far is that the rapier, scimitar, and pistol are the only "appropriate" swashbukcler weapons for the swashbuckler and yet the many weapons excluded by this rule are more closer to the "appropriate" weapons in design and functionally then a lot of those included, wether we include the feat limited ones or not.

@Kobash, if we're looking only at weapons the swashbuckler can use without penalty, that list is vastly smaller than the fighters and, again, includes a lot of weapons that don't fit the theme.

This whole notion of a weapon theme is silly. The only reason we keep seeing scimitars/cutlasses and rapiers in the hands of character denoted as "swashbucklers" is because those character happen to be written in a setting that is or is based on either the late medieval/pre industrial periods where those weapons were omnipresent.

Those weapons are used by everyone in those stories.

Pathfinder is not set in the real world late medieval/pre industrial period or anything remotely close. It is an environment where rapiers, katanas, and scimitars—weapons wielded by people oceans and/or centuries apart—all exist in the same sphere. Shed your hindering notion about what people called swashbucklers usually look like and think about what a swashbuckler could be in a world with elves and dwarves.


Knifechief wrote:
Hm, I'd entirely forgotten Dervish Dance let you treat a scimitar as a piercing weapon. Still, not what I was hoping for; Dervish Dance only works on the scimitar and the cutlass is, technically, a separate item. It's still more viable for a Swashbuckler to wield a pick or trident than a cutlass.

Scimitar 15 gp 1d4 1d6 18–20/×2 — 4 lbs. S — CRB

Cutlass 15 gp 1d4 1d6 18-20/×2 — 4 lbs. S — PoIS

That technicality isn't splitting hairs, its shaving them with an electron microscope. Besmara's favored weapon is even the scimitar.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cornelius De Bergerac wrote:

So, the swashbuckler is an hybrid between the fighter and the gunslinger right?

Both these classes has strong FORTITUDE saves.
But the swashbuckler does not.

Not sure I agree with that.

Let the ability build sort that out.
If I see my character as very resilient, I'll put some some CON to reflect that. If I see him more fragile, I won't invest too much in CON.

I think the saves of the swashbuckler should follow the classes it was based on.

Many people have stated their opinions on the fact that they believe this class should get good fort saves as well as reflex.

IMHO, look at what the class gets on a breakdown and then tell me you believe the class NEEDS it.

1) full BaB
2)4+int skills(fighters are at 2, same with paladin, also full BaB classes)
3)extra +5 dodge to ac, in addition to the parry ability
4)bravery(yeah, it's only against fear saves but still)
5)evasion, uncanny dodge and improved(all of which are amazing)

In short, the multitude of class abilities that this class gets way exceed the need for a second good save. sure it will be harsh at times to handle casters, but the swashbuckler was meant as a melee combatant for swordplay. The base fighter only has one good save but has tons of bonus feats as well. I don't see the argument some say as "both fighter and gunslinger have it, why doesn't the swashbuckler?" because the swashbuckler focuses on the agile aspect. the gunslinger has both, and the fighter is pure fortitude.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Knifechief wrote:
Hm, I'd entirely forgotten Dervish Dance let you treat a scimitar as a piercing weapon. Still, not what I was hoping for; Dervish Dance only works on the scimitar and the cutlass is, technically, a separate item. It's still more viable for a Swashbuckler to wield a pick or trident than a cutlass.

Scimitar 15 gp 1d4 1d6 18–20/×2 — 4 lbs. S — CRB

Cutlass 15 gp 1d4 1d6 18-20/×2 — 4 lbs. S — PoIS

That technicality isn't splitting hairs, its shaving them with an electron microscope. Besmara's favored weapon is even the scimitar.

Cutlass isn't even in any of the core books, so anyone splitting hairs about the difference already cares way more than I do.


Yes. The class needs it.

Not all of those things are at all weighed equally, and it's not just against spellcasters.

There are plenty of creatures in the game that trigger Fortitude or Will save effects as their built in abilities.

Reflex is hands down THE WORST save to have as your only best in teh entire game. Reflex, on average, saves you from taking a bit of damage from some spells.

Fort and Will are where all the Save or Suck/Die spells and effects target, except maybe the Pit spells.

A frontliner who can't pass a Fort or Will save is at a severe disadvantage against any number of entire creature types/subtypes, including most Undead, Dragons, and Outsiders, two of which are some of the most common enemies in the game.

The otehr class abilities merely MAKE UP FOR other restrictions the class has.

+5 Dodge to AC? Makes up for not being able to wear Medium/Heavy armor. It just makes up the difference in AC.

Bravery? Attempts to enhance the shitty Will save. Like with teh Fighter, it fails miserably.

Evasion? Enhances something he's already good at. Neat ability, doesn't really help a whole lot.

Uncanny Dodge/Improved? Maybe if you get the first strike in you can avoid being Dominated, Paralyzed, or outright killed for a round.

Precise Strike? Makes up for the inherently Dex based nature of the class. As long as you're not fighting Elementals or some Aberrations. In which case, have fun I guess.

Full BaB is great.

4+Int skills is good (should be the default for every non Int caster).

Other than that it has little going for it where it counts.


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Whos_That wrote:

IMHO, look at what the class gets on a breakdown and then tell me you believe the class NEEDS it.

1) full BaB

Nearly meaningless unless your enemies are willing to trade blows with you, you can acquire pounce, or you can stack bonus damage onto your single highly-accurate attack.

Quote:
2)4+int skills(fighters are at 2, same with paladin, also full BaB classes)

2 + Intelligence is a travesty, not a comparison point.

Quote:
3)extra +5 dodge to ac, in addition to the parry ability

'Extra'. The Dodge bonus to AC is an attempt to compensate for lowered armor class in a game where armor class is the least efficient method of defense available. I mean, at least it affects touch spells?

Quote:
4)bravery(yeah, it's only against fear saves but still)

Bravery is a nifty filler ability that, in the grand scheme of things, means almost nothing. Fear can be a nasty effect but it's trivial to avoid too.

Quote:
5)evasion, uncanny dodge and improved(all of which are amazing)

Evasion is nice! UDodge less so, but it's useful sometimes, so hey. I'll take the bone where it exists.

Quote:
In short, the multitude of class abilities that this class gets way exceed the need for a second good save. sure it will be harsh at times to handle casters, but the swashbuckler was meant as a melee combatant for swordplay. The base fighter only has one good save but has tons of bonus feats as well. I don't see the argument some say as "both fighter and gunslinger have it, why doesn't the swashbuckler?" because the swashbuckler focuses on the agile aspect. the gunslinger has both, and the fighter is pure fortitude.

Fighter and Gunslinger are both deeply flawed classes and I'm hoping that the son (Swashbuckler) ends up greater than the father, frankly. This is an excellent chance to create a dynamic, mobile combatant that can embody tons of really striking movie and literature tropes. Wasting that opportunity with passive abilities would sadden me deeply.


I have to second the addition of another good save. When it comes down to it I'd rather lose out on class abilities than have only 1 good save (not that I think it needs to necessarily). In my time as GM I've had very few players or monsters lose a fight or die to a fumbled Reflex save, but they lose out to Fort saves all the time.


What about allowing the Swashbuckler to apply their Charisma bonus to Will saves?


Does anyone have an ETA on the arrival of the new PDF? There's only like a week left of the playtest...


LadyWurm wrote:
What about allowing the Swashbuckler to apply their Charisma bonus to Will saves?

That's been thrown around alot. Better than what we have but IMO not good enough. A good base saving throw will in the long run give you a much higher save.


Ellis Mirari wrote:
LadyWurm wrote:
What about allowing the Swashbuckler to apply their Charisma bonus to Will saves?
That's been thrown around alot. Better than what we have but IMO not good enough. A good base saving throw will in the long run give you a much higher save.

yes, but probably thematically more appropriate as well as reducing the desire to dump charisma. i actually want my dex/cha class to use those...

Liberty's Edge

cuatroespada wrote:
Ellis Mirari wrote:
LadyWurm wrote:
What about allowing the Swashbuckler to apply their Charisma bonus to Will saves?
That's been thrown around alot. Better than what we have but IMO not good enough. A good base saving throw will in the long run give you a much higher save.
yes, but probably thematically more appropriate as well as reducing the desire to dump charisma. i actually want my dex/cha class to use those...

Make Bravery into Bravado and have it apply CHA Bonus to Will and Fortitude. Flavor works -- through sheer force of personality, swashbucklers are able to shrug off mental and physical attacks that would hamper others.

Remove higher levels of Bravado or have it add a +1 every 4ish levels.

Higher, but not broken saves, and adds a reason not to dump CHA.

EDIT: Spelling Gremlins


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Ran a session with some friends a couple days ago where I played a Swashbuckler. Kept it to Core material, so no Agile, Dervish Dance, Piranha Strike, etc. It was definitely enjoyable to play overall, and I had a lot of fun with the class features.

That said, there were definitely a few annoying points. One of the biggest actually showed up not in actual play, but during the build of the character. In the other Pathfinder classes I've built/played, the experience was like being shown the basic foundation to a house, and then getting let loose to build something on top of it, whatever my imagination came up with in terms of a direction to go in. Building a Swashbuckler, on the other hand, felt like being shown a fully constructed house, and then being told that the interesting work was already done, now go in and patch all the leaks and fix the foundation before the place comes down around your ears.

So much of the character build was just finding the "right" missing pieces to make the class work, at all. Realizing that you need to spend one of your feats taking Combat Reflexes to make your main early-level class mechanics even function. Realizing you need to use a rapier if you want to spend the least percentage of time frustratingly out of Panache and unable to use your class's interesting stuff. Realizing that you need to take both the Iron Will and Great Fortitude feats (and really, probably both the feat chains) to desperately try and make up for the fact that both of your two weak saves are the ones that can make you flat out incapacitated/killed/attacking-your-own-party if you can't reliably make them. And heaven help you if you start at level 1 and have to accept the slap-in-the-face of having to spend one of your feats on Weapon Finesse to hit things, before then getting it at level 2.

Overall, it didn't feel like "coming up with a build" so much as it felt like using my feats and traits and such to try and fit the last few missing jigsaw puzzle pieces into an existing one, such that the character doesn't die or help kill his allies.

It's not usually this way. When I've built Bards, or Sorcerers, or Barbarians, or even Fighters, I've built them with unique builds and focuses and play styles and methodologies. But for Swashbucklers, so much of your (theoretically) "chooseable" resources are tied up in just patching the class's weaknesses and missing pieces that I have a hard time seeing myself playing any other Swashbuckler build under the current rules that isn't more or less just another tweaked-and-refined version of pretty much the same one I made for our playtest. At least not until much higher levels once all the "essentials" have been obtained.


Clay: can you post your swashbuckler build? (or at least the stats/planned feats)


claymade wrote:

Overall, it didn't feel like "coming up with a build" so much as it felt like using my feats and traits and such to try and fit the last few missing jigsaw puzzle pieces into an existing one, such that the character doesn't die or help kill his allies.

It's not usually this way. When I've built Bards, or Sorcerers, or Barbarians, or even Fighters, I've built them with unique builds and focuses and play styles and methodologies. But for Swashbucklers, so much of your (theoretically) "chooseable" resources are tied up in just patching the class's weaknesses and missing pieces that I have a hard time seeing myself playing any other Swashbuckler build under the current rules that isn't more or less just another tweaked-and-refined version of pretty much the same one I made for our playtest. At least not until much higher levels once all the "essentials" have been obtained.

Its like this pretty much because the swashbuckler (as written) is more an alternat class for the gunslinger then it is a hybrid class. And the gunslinger suffers from alot of the same problems. It doesnt have chooseable options, and there are some clearly better choices with the core gunslinger, with some archetypes that let you mix things up a little. I would imagine if things dont change, for the swashbuckler your only real 'choice' you will make with regards to your class will be what if any archetype you choose.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

*starts chant* revised test, revised test, revised test*continues*

Would love to see the up to date info for the swashbuckler. We most likely won't get another revision to play test before it goes live. So I would like to see what changes have been made so I can rework my current swashbuckler to vanquish evil in the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path(currently in book 2) with my devilishly handsome azata- blooded aasimar.

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