So. how does a GM build a swashbuckler NPC with standard stats of
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8?
Where do the 10 and the 8 go?
As the class is now, the Swash's stat priorities are: STR > CON > DEX and WIS > INT > CHA, same as any fighter or barbarian really.
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I think one of the reasons people have such different views of how the swashbuckler should be like is that the concept is all about how the character does things far more than what he actually does. Having charm, grace, speed, and dynamic action makes a swashbuckler, not the specific weapons or fighting style.Absolutely agreed. I'm just happy the class feels like a Swashbuckler. :)
Well, to be completely honest, I hope it plays like a Swashbuckler too ;-)
And CC's post right above is worrying to say the least. DEX and CHA last should be no way to build a proper Swashbuckler IMO
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As the class is now, the Swash's stat priorities are: STR > CON > DEX and WIS > INT > CHA, same as any fighter or barbarian really.So. how does a GM build a swashbuckler NPC with standard stats of
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8?
Where do the 10 and the 8 go?
I don't know whether to favor this post because its true or set it on fire because its true...
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I think one of the reasons people have such different views of how the swashbuckler should be like is that the concept is all about how the character does things far more than what he actually does. Having charm, grace, speed, and dynamic action makes a swashbuckler, not the specific weapons or fighting style.
Absolutely correct. All I want is for some mechanical tweaks to the mobility part and done tweaks/additions to some of the deeds. That way, the class fits the fluff, and we won't have to dip crazy classes (monk, barbarian, etc) to force it to fit.
Because STR and DEX both increase the To Hit, but STR also improves damage. Also, it only costs one feat to get 3 panache, regardless of how low your CHA is. INT, meanwhile, lets you use combat manoeuvres (because you need combat expertise) and if you dump your WIS you'll have a terrible Will save. Besides, as written you don't get weapon finesse until level two, leaving you completely useless until then.
Honestly I wouldn't even put INT up to 13 to get combat expertise. Just don't dump it below 10, or you'll start cutting into your (already low) number of skill points.
So. how does a GM build a swashbuckler NPC with standard stats of
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8?
Where do the 10 and the 8 go?
If I were building an NPC Swashbuckler, this is how I would do it:
Human Swashbuckler
Str: 13
Dex: 15 + 2
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
Level 1 Feat: Toughness
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Because STR and DEX both increase the To Hit, but STR also improves damage. Also, it only costs one feat to get 3 panache, regardless of how low your CHA is. INT, meanwhile, lets you use combat manoeuvres (because you need combat expertise) and if you dump your WIS you'll have a terrible Will save. Besides, as written you don't get weapon finesse until level two, leaving you completely useless until then.Honestly I wouldn't even put INT up to 13 to get combat expertise. Just don't dump it below 10, or you'll start cutting into your (already low) number of skill points.
An Int of 8, while not desirable, is not crippling. With your favored class bonus and extra human skill point, if you're human, make up the difference.
Is it standard practice to reduce skill point below the base total? That sounds terrible.
Is it standard practice to reduce skill point below the base total? That sounds terrible.
Yes, though it's a common (and IMO reasonable) houserule that negative INT modifiers don't reduce the number of skill points you receive.
And while it's not *crippling* to dump INT, it hurts more than it does to dump CHA, so you should dump CHA first. And while to-hit and damage are more important for you, I wouldn't underestimate skill points though, since having max ranks in a skill nobody else in the party has is a godsend when the time is right.
TBH if I was in charge of redesigning this class the first place I'd look for inspiration is Warlord Gambits.
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Dumping INT won't be as bad if the devs integrate Combat Expertise into the class like they mentioned. Increasing skill points to 6+Int would help too.
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Still working on my PFS lv1 gnome swashbuckler "Cornelius".
I am looking at opportune parry, and I feel like I am overly being punished by my flavor choice of being a small agile gnome.
Let me give you a bit of background:
I am already getting less strength, and because of my size, I am also less effective at performing combat maneuvers and defending against them... that's okay.. I have learned to live with that..
So, I look at opportune parry, and I am hit with a -4 to perform that if I parry against a medium creature's attack.
I feel like saying "Come on.. I am paying the price of my small stature enough.. please don't punish me more"
(I think a small agile swashbuckler, should be viable, as it fits the theme, so there should be a mechanical way to support it, without too much punishment. Otherwise, you will largely just see taldan swashbucklers)
I mean, I don't see why that build should be that bad a parrying.
Thanks.
P.S. sorry if that was covered before. I did not read the 1,769 previous posts.
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Yeah, that -4 size difference penalty needs to go. It unduly penalizes Gnomes and Halflings, many of whose racial feats are geared exactly towards confounding the big folk in melee. And it punishes everyone later on in the game, when very large enemies are practically routine.
I'm not going to harp on it too much until they post the revisions they mentioned.
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Is it standard practice to reduce skill point below the base total? That sounds terrible.
it is not a practice that I usually engage in, but for the play test, I didn't have a whole lot of choices. I was sticking with swashbuckler instead of taking a dip into something else which would change my stat allocation somewhat. For instance, a dip into MoMS would have helped saves and feat selection, making it easier to raise int, lower Cha, take extra grit, and open up weapon focus/specialization space, allowing for a lower Str and higher Int and Dex, making combat expertise and trip/disarm more available. I hope that they fix some of the need to dip in order to make all that possible.
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Yeah, that -4 size difference penalty needs to go. It unduly penalizes Gnomes and Halflings, many of whose racial feats are geared exactly towards confounding the big folk in melee. And it punishes everyone later on in the game, when very large enemies are practically routine.
I'm not going to harp on it too much until they post the revisions they mentioned.
Absolutely agree.
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I believe dumping Charisma should not be a standard option for a Swashbuckler. In fact, I'd say that a swashbuckler can't have pinache at all unless they have a charisma of 11 or 12 - sort of like a wizard or sorcerer requiring a minimum ability score to cast their spells.
For those who wish to play a smart, but ugly, swashbuckler, maybe an archetype would allow pinache to come off intelligence somehow.
I believe dumping Charisma should not be a standard option for a Swashbuckler. In fact, I'd say that a swashbuckler can't have pinache at all unless they have a charisma of 11 or 12 - sort of like a wizard or sorcerer requiring a minimum ability score to cast their spells.
For those who wish to play a smart, but ugly, swashbuckler, maybe an archetype would allow pinache to come off intelligence somehow.
That's kind of the point people keep making. Swashbucklers should be dexterous and charismatic, but, currently, the best way to play a Swashbuckler is to dump Charisma, take an Extra Grit feat, and go Strength Prime.
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That's kind of the point people keep making. Swashbucklers should be dexterous and charismatic, but, currently, the best way to play a Swashbuckler is to dump Charisma, take an Extra Grit feat, and go Strength Prime.I believe dumping Charisma should not be a standard option for a Swashbuckler. In fact, I'd say that a swashbuckler can't have pinache at all unless they have a charisma of 11 or 12 - sort of like a wizard or sorcerer requiring a minimum ability score to cast their spells.
For those who wish to play a smart, but ugly, swashbuckler, maybe an archetype would allow pinache to come off intelligence somehow.
Correct. Which I pray they change with the rewrite.
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That's kind of the point people keep making. Swashbucklers should be dexterous and charismatic, but, currently, the best way to play a Swashbuckler is to dump Charisma, take an Extra Grit feat, and go Strength Prime.I believe dumping Charisma should not be a standard option for a Swashbuckler. In fact, I'd say that a swashbuckler can't have pinache at all unless they have a charisma of 11 or 12 - sort of like a wizard or sorcerer requiring a minimum ability score to cast their spells.
For those who wish to play a smart, but ugly, swashbuckler, maybe an archetype would allow pinache to come off intelligence somehow.
Yes, but many of the strength builds aren't making this disclaimer, so I'm just giving my opinion again. :)
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I believe dumping Charisma should not be a standard option for a Swashbuckler. In fact, I'd say that a swashbuckler can't have pinache at all unless they have a charisma of 11 or 12 - sort of like a wizard or sorcerer requiring a minimum ability score to cast their spells.
For those who wish to play a smart, but ugly, swashbuckler, maybe an archetype would allow pinache to come off intelligence somehow.
That's what I would do as well. Panache points would be equal to your charisma bonus. Have a charisma penalty? You don't get to use abilities that use panache.
I believe dumping Charisma should not be a standard option for a Swashbuckler. In fact, I'd say that a swashbuckler can't have pinache at all unless they have a charisma of 11 or 12 - sort of like a wizard or sorcerer requiring a minimum ability score to cast their spells.
This just makes their MADness problems worse, honestly. IMO the actual way to solve the problem is to give them useful abilities that key off CHA, similar to how a Factotum can get INT to basically everything.
Between hinting on a podcast that this is going to be one of the three most radically changed classes in the second PDF, and seeing an internal playtest stat line dumping str and pumping the hell out of cha, it seems to me the thing to do right now is just to wait for that to hit and focus on some of the other classes for now.
Between hinting on a podcast that this is going to be one of the three most radically changed classes in the second PDF, and seeing an internal playtest stat line dumping str and pumping the hell out of cha, it seems to me the thing to do right now is just to wait for that to hit and focus on some of the other classes for now.
James also mentioned he had a lot of comments on the design of the class. So it could be that he played a Swashbuckler and didn't like how it turned out, and his comments could be along the line of what most people here have been saying.
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Googleshng, we've had some differences of opinion in the past, but I'm right with you now (and I'm starting to swing around to some of your other ideas actually after seeing so much discussion about strength vs dexterity with this class and some of builds that are coming out of it). Actually, I don't really want to make comments on the current situation with the swashbuckler because I feel the new version is already set and I'm hoping it will address most of these issues.
Also, everyone keep in mind James was playing a version twice removed from the current playtest, so this next version might not incorporate options that make a charisma favored character work.
Yup. That's why I'm waiting to make my next test build. Any new news on when the new pdf is coming?
Soon.
why would you favour STR over DEX for a swashbuckler? Likewise I'd have thought CHA would be higher up the list as it's what fuels the classes abilities...
Strength swashbucklers remind me of a character named Gorst from The First Law series of books (which are rad as f$#~). He is a fencer who developed his own style for tournaments using the heaviest swords that the rules allowed for. And that is awesome.
I will also note that most fictional fencers are not exactly weak of arm. Strength is merely just not the most important thing about their fighting style.
I know that I am pretty late to this party but I think the best version of this class would allow the swashbuckler to benefit from both strength and dexterity (maybe by giving the swashbuckler HALF og their dexterity modifier to damage at level 5).
Then I would give them some charisma based ability to offset some of their squishiness (caused by MAD diverting points from their constitution).
Perhaps they could get a panache power that lets them gain their charisma minus ten (not charisma mod) as temporary hit points under certain circumstances (like when an enemy misses them with an attack or even whenever the Swashbuckler spends a Panache point!)
Just some stuff that I would like to see.
Excaliburproxy, I would say Gorst is a fighter, not a swashbuckler. There's no finesse or pinache in his style, and his personality indicates a terrible charisma. He wears medium-heavy armor and hacks through things.
That must be what Paizo was going for in their first version, since it is the best build I have come up with...
Very optimistic for the next iteration. A lot of the other ACG changes seem to indicate that the designers really do listen to our ranting. One more reason to keep giving this company my money.
That must be what Paizo was going for in their first version, since it is the best build I have come up with...
Very optimistic for the next iteration. A lot of the other ACG changes seem to indicate that the designers really do listen to our ranting. One more reason to keep giving this company my money.
After today's horrid episode of ponies I need some good news.
If the class doesn't support elven curved blade right out of the gate, it's just going to make people want an archetype later to patch that overly restrictive concept of how to swashbuckle.
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In my opinion, swashbuckler is not a core fighter.
More like an archetype, in that it uses a select set of skills. They are more dexterous, employing the one handed weapon and free offhand duelist type of combat.
Giving a swashbuckling pirate a two handed weapon that they are spinning, parrying and riposting just seems like a two handed fighter weapons master. It doesn't have the flow, the same feel that a swashbuckler should. People wanting better numbers just for the sake of being overpowered really upset me in this regard.
And for those trying to justify that it fits an elven styled build seem to fail to recall that all elves are proficient with the "elven" weapons but as a side racial ability gain proficiency with "longbows (including composite longbows), longswords,
rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows)" because that already fits their style of elegance and grace.
EDIT: I omitted the line regarding the "elven" weapons as martial weapons because not all classes will gain all martial weapons. This means that it shouldn't be REQUIRED as an "elven" gimme weapon, but an option.
Rapier/wakazishi/short-swords/scimitar work fine as flavor adders, employing the "needed dex to damage scimitar" that soo many are in favor of, but still keep the iconic look and feel to the swashbuckler
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Part of the problem I see here is there seem to be two types of people that want to play swashbucklers at the moment.
One group wants the charismatic quipping lightly armoured fencer with all his ties to piracy romance rapiers and cutlasses they want the Errol Flynns and Jack Sparrows and maybe Sinbad when his enemies were claymation. They want to be able to do this not as a bard or rogue but as a full BAB frontliner. This character is dexterous. This character class is also kind of limited to this exact concept and mental image space.
The other group wants a dex based melee class that they can use to emulate the umpteen billion styles of combat where finesse is more valid then brawn. The knife fighter, stick fighter the unarmored iaijutsu duelist that there really is no support for under the current ruleset. this character *IS* Dexterous <note the different enunciation>. This character class could be a swashbuckler or any one of a dozen other things.
Its fairly obvious to me at this point that Paizo for whatever reasons has decided that the second group isn't going to get their thing and if by some chance they do It will not be using the swashbuckler as a vehicle to do so. Paizo has also made this game feel more like people are their character class. Fred the Fighter and Bob the Barbarian VS Fred the Begger Knight in service of the queen from a family to poor to afford a horse to send him <Their seventh son> off on so he learned to survive on foot and Bob the street urchin who learned as a boy the only way to keep the predators who hunted the cobblestones with fangs of iron duly gleaming in the flickering torchlight was to give into his seething fury drawn from his anger of the random chance of his social class. Now the Archtype rules both support this way of viewing things and help to make up for some of the limitations <I'm not a fighter I'm a Cad.> Neither approach is really better or worse then the other they're just different. It does however mean that if a class has a trope name then that class *is* the trope.
Neither of these groups are asking for these changes 'For teh min maxing' but because they have ideas in head space that they want to be able to use that rules space does not support. <Dexterous Two handed weapon fighting ? Not dumping a stat that is thematicly relevant to me but mechanicly useless ? Pshaw never>.
A few things that have to be kept in mind when dealing with d&d and it carries over to most 'Adventuring party' games ranging from this one to Shadowrun. the first one is Generalists suck. A character that is good at his 1 thing nearly all the time is better in a party than a character who is good at two things some of the time unless the party already has its guy for each task. The Swashbuckler is meant to take the 'Fighter' role. If the class cant fill this role then a sizable portion of gamers will be frustrated with it and find it unfun to play. It doesn't have to fill it in the same way but it needs to accomplish the same task with the same success rate. MC Frontalot and Ice-T are both rappers. They both Rap. They definitely do not approach it from the same way, and since both of them have fans who give them money both of them have accomplished their goal.
As it stands, the scope of the class is really narrow, yeah. The general design approach to it though largely seems to be based around that one Erol Flynn-ish concept and getting it to work right, at the expense of all else. I'd assume though the plan is, once that's working right, to cover some of the other bases with archetypes. Any given swashbuckler would be shoehorned into a very specific weapon set (although the default option here does need to open up a little), and a deed list to match. Stick fighting seems doable enough like that. Treat a quarterstaff as a valid swashbuckler weapon, swap a couple deeds around, tada. I'm guessing the sword-and-pistol option mixes and matches swashbucker and gunslinger deeds. I could see an unarmed/improvised archetype with more focus on maneuvering and such.
Not sure if this is the class for the other things you mentioned there though. Iaijitsu honestly feels like more of something you'd want to do through feats... and even then, I'm not sure the game supports it well in general. Massive damage bonus but only on the first attack against a given target doesn't quite seem right, but how else would you work it? Knife fighting is already what rogues are theoretically about. Piranha Strike lets you do it well with a dex heavy build. I could see brawler handling it if you want a proper flashing blades sort of thing. I might be picturing something really different from what you're thinking with that though.
Iaijutsu is already covered by the Sword Saint Samurai. Or a dude with Vital Strike.
Neither are very good, but there you go.
I think the core of the class should stick with the archetypal Swashbuckler image. Your Errol Flynns and Jack Sparrows and Sinbads as Boartusk put it.
But even in that niche it's super limited. The fact that it doesn't function with a cutlass is just plain WRONG. Expanding Precise Strike to light/1H Slashing AND piercing weapons would go a long way towards opening up SOME concepts there that fit the archetype.
Then make class Archetypes that expand to more tangential things. I wouldn't mind seeing an Iaijutsu master, a Knife Fighter, or even an Improvised Weapon User. But that's for later, core class focus is for now.
And the core class, IMO, should stay a bit more limited, at least in concept execution.
Rogues knife fight well enough, but what if you wanted a full BAB knife fighter? That is, not someone who sneaks up and stabs people in the back, but someone who straight up murders fools with a knife.
As for Iaijutsu, you could always add a feat with Quick Draw as a prerequisite that allows you to draw a weapon and attack with it in the same motion.
The biggest problem that Pathfinder faces when it comes to building a DEX based fighting class is that D&D was designed under the popular yet erroneous belief that sword fighting prior to the invention of the rapier was more about brute strength than dexterity or tactics (a lie commonly told by early rapier masters to get more students into their schools). Because that design never changed, STR is both the to hit and the damage stat, relegating DEX to the AC stat. Swapping damage for survivability isn't so bad at low level, when most of your damage comes from the damage die than static modifiers anyway.
The problem shows up later on down the line, when almost everything can hit you on a 5+ regardless and you're still not able to kill things quickly enough. Piranha Strike is a useful replacement for Power Attack, but it's not in the core books. Dervish Dance meanwhile makes the Scimitar the best weapon for this class, which I would assume is unintentional, and precise strike makes up for not using a two handed weapon or a weapon in each hand.
Quite honestly, I feel like the best way to support DEX based fighters would be to change the Weapon Finesse feat itself to allow for adding DEX to damage in place of STR (half your DEX bonus, perhaps, so that the feats that allow the full DEX bonus aren't suddenly redundant), and putting Piranha Strike into the core book lineup, making the trade-off between damage and unarmoured AC a smaller one. Then, the Swashbuckler class can concentrate on giving you awesome stuff to do with your Panache.
This is just a long standing problem with the game... the best knife fighter? Probably a big strong ranger that can use TWF without having to "waste" his best stat on dexterity. That really is the state of the game.
Eventually every rogue enthusiast learns this disappointing truth, that they would be better served focusing on strength over dexterity. That particular issue is two-fold. Not only is dexterity an underwhelming combat ability, but the skill system progresses in such a way that ability modifiers are rapidly overtaken by skill points, training bonuses and items.
It feels like the best knife fighter should be agile and quick-fingered, but its just not the case, and the same becomes true for every melee weapon, because they are all treated the same and strength is king. Frankly, it seems silly to me that finesse (and its mythic counterpart) aren't just baked in to the game.