I'm pretty sure that being able to grab Weapon Specialization on top of precise strike is not a good thing.Why? Weapon Specialization's actually not all that good in comparison to other things you could do with the feat slot.
Maybe not immediately, but it means that in absolute terms, the swashbuckler has the potential to dip into the fighter's damage boosts, on top of its own. I wrote a class that similarly had a level-based bonus to damage, and it effectively replaced Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, and weapon training. Allowing them to do both may not be hugely imbalancing, but it does seem a little rude.
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I think they are actively trying to avoid front loading alot of classes in particular BAB 20 classes with features to make multi-classing less desirable/cheesy/muchkiny/beardy
Are you aware of how insulting andinaccurate this sentiment is?
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This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have the Swashbuckler fall slightly behind in flat damage (although it seems like one person's build had him evening out with the fighter pretty well) and be more useful in other ways, or have his damage boosted in a less direct way, than have Dex and Cha to damage. Its fine for a magic item quality because it's... well, magic.
The expanded crit ranges is a good start, though it doesn't come online until much later. Focusing on the bravado/intimidation aspect of the class at earlier levels could be an interesting way to handle it.
You have a point.
I rather see it doing things that normally can’t be done.Like moving and hitting more than once. Disarming more than one opponent. Having an ability that let it have reach with a none reach weapon.
Something similar to The Duelist’s Acrobatic charge or The Bard spell “Bladed Dash. I’d like it to be far more mobile.
Perhaps even get Bladed Dash as a Deed.
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Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benef it of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).It doesn't mention working or being treated in any way like a fighter's weapon training. There may be a line about hybrid classes I missed though.
It has 'weapon training' as part of its name, you gain it at 5th level, it gives +1 to attack and damage with all weapons in a certain group and improves by +1 per 4 levels.
You get Improved Critical instead of extra weapon groups as you level.
It works for the Polearm Master's Polearm Training, why wouldn't it work for Swashbuckler's Weapon Training?
If someone with better search-fu than I could quote that FAQ it would be very helpful. : )
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I think they are actively trying to avoid front loading alot of classes in particular BAB 20 classes with features to make multi-classing less desirable/cheesy/muchkiny/beardyAre you aware of how insulting andinaccurate this sentiment is?
You should say that to Dervish Bard, the Unarmed Fighter, or the Master of Many Styles/Maneuver Master Monks.
Multiclassing isn't cheesy, but having classes in the ruleset whose class features are so crippling/weak/uninteresting in comparison to their iconic front powers that they give no incentive to go over 2nd level in them is not desirable, and encourages mini-maxers into abusive builds.|
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It has 'weapon training' as part of its name, you gain it at 5th level, it gives +1 to attack and damage with all weapons in a certain group and improves by +1 per 4 levels.
You get Improved Critical instead of extra weapon groups as you level.
It works for the Polearm Master's Polearm Training, why wouldn't it work for Swashbuckler's Weapon Training?
If someone with better search-fu than I could quote that FAQ it would be very helpful. : )
Because it isn't a fighter's "Weapon Training" ; it is a Swashbuckler's "Swashbuckler Weapon Training".
There may have been a clarification since then or it may have been overlooked, but since the APG, all class features treated as the base feature they replace have a clarification similar to : "XXX is treated as a ZZZ's XXY for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of feats or magic items". I'd be happy to learn otherwise with the appropriate FQ ruling though.
I think they are actively trying to avoid front loading alot of classes in particular BAB 20 classes with features to make multi-classing less desirable/cheesy/muchkiny/beardyAre you aware of how insulting andinaccurate this sentiment is?You should say that to Dervish Bard, the Unarmed Fighter, or the Master of Many Styles/Maneuver Master Monks.
Multiclassing isn't cheesy, but having classes in the ruleset whose class features are so crippling/weak/uninteresting in comparison to their iconic front powers that they give no incentive to go over 2nd level in them is not desirable, and encourages mini-maxers into abusive builds.
People who can't game responsibly are going to happen no matter what you do. If Paizo didn't want melee fans to have to 'min-max' they should've written better melee. We're talking about a universe in which you can reasonably expect to have to stare down soul-drinking abominations (starting at Wights), DRAGONS (at any level!), towering demons wreathed in blasphemous sorcery, unstoppable metallic juggernauts, etc. In response to these horrific threats, we have...melee that can't keep up. That starts not keeping up at fifth level. That ends up wholly incapable of natively Fighting Evil by thirteenth level without caster support.
This is a bit of a problem; dipping is/was a solution. Better design would of course be a better solution.
I think they are actively trying to avoid front loading alot of classes in particular BAB 20 classes with features to make multi-classing less desirable/cheesy/muchkiny/beardyAre you aware of how insulting andinaccurate this sentiment is?
seems accurate.
To counteract the swashbucklers being useless at first level how about adding a line to swashbuckler finesse that states, if the character already has the weapon finesse feat then they gain a +1 on attack roles with light and one-handed piercing weapons, or maybe giving an extra panache point.
This way for games that start at higher levels that swashbuckler could forgo the weapon finesse feat, and games starting at level one a player could take the weapon finesse feat and still gain a boon at level two.
To counteract the swashbucklers being useless at first level how about adding a line to swashbuckler finesse that states, if the character already has the weapon finesse feat then they gain a +1 on attack roles with light and one-handed piercing weapons, or maybe giving an extra panache point.
This way for games that start at higher levels that swashbuckler could forgo the weapon finesse feat, and games starting at level one a player could take the weapon finesse feat and still gain a boon at level two.
They could also just let the finesse come online at first level; they're not gonna hurt anything by doing so (and the difference between a one-level dip and a two-level dip is fairly minimal).
If they just want bonus feats they would just dip Fighter. And they can't dip both Fighter and Swashbuckler.
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Personally what I'd love to see out of something with 'Swashbuckler' for a name is the ability to meaningfully utilize and reward mobility. I mean, when one thinks 'swashbuckling' does one not imagine fights on shifting decks in savage storms, progressing duels atop narrow canyon walls, acrobatic leaps and parries, and various things that combine You, That Chandelier, and The Enemy?
When I imagine the Swashbuckler, I generally imagine this.
Julio Scoundrel, distracting the enemy with his skill at defensive maneuvers, allowing the others to do their thing, all while avoiding any scars on his 'pretty' face. In this case, he his helping his allies flee. Other cases might be allowing the party spellcaster to get off a powerful spell, or using Butterfly Sting to get the Barbarian/Bloodrager an automatic crit with his massive greataxe.
Whereas the Fighter would likely go for a killing blow faster - and a Swashbuckler should still be able to do that should he want to. In such a case, he would utilize Precise Strike.
So yes, mobility should be certainly utilized. In fact, in Panel 4 of that page, it almost looks like Julio is using the Recovery deed.
In fact, Butterfly Sting would be an extremely useful feat for a Swashbuckler - if he has an ally that uses a x3 or x4 2h'd melee weapon. Barbarian/Bloodrager with a Scythe/Greataxe would work. Using that feat, standing side by side with his brutish ally, the duo would rip face open like no tomorrow.
And, since it was pointed out that Weapon Finesse allows you to use your dex to cmb with a finesseable weapon, this swashbuckler could easily work to trip foes - allowing his ally to again, slaughter them.
It might not be as glorious of a job, but nor is being your average 'god wizard' with control spells, or the cleric with his buffs and heals. You will, however, tear through encounters.
Just hopping in again to say that the minimum 1 panache point regardless of CHA needs to go. My best SB builds right now are 7 charisma, which hurts my soul as I sit here building characters and watching Princess Bride. Non-Charismatic SBs shouldn't be ENCOURAGED. See my (and many others) previous post on multiple attribute dependency.
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For the most part I like this class. The only two issues I see with it are the lack of firearms and the oddly implemented swashbuckler finesse.
Personally, I think both of these issues could be handled by taking out the Swashbuckler finesse ability and changing it to a multiple option Swashbuckling Style (similar to the Ranger Combat Style) that grants access to a limited number of feats.
One Swashbuckling Style option could be Weapon Finesse. Another could be Exotic Weapon Proficiency (which could be drawn from a limited list of weapons like firearm, whip, etc.). This option would let those who like swashbucklers gun-free to remain so, but also allow for the possibility of firearms which are a Gunslinger's (and many swashbuckling pirates) iconic weapon. This also covers a few bases for those wanting to play this class in PFS, as they could take Gunsmithing at 1st level and then get access to firearms at 2nd.
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Here's my solution to the lack of weapon finesse at first level:
Swashbuckler Finesse: At second level, the Swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. If she already possesses the Weapon Finesse feat, she instead gains one combat feat for which she qualifies. She also gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against weapons usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Also, needing 13 Str to power attack with a rapier annoys me. I wouldn't mine seeing Piranha Strike reprinted in the ACG with it slightly changed to allow use with all finesse weapons.
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At this point I am so frustrated while playing this character, but still committed to it.
The problem I am having with the swashbuckler is based on this wording: "The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before that attack roll is made." Both in real life and in the online communities, when a gm rolls an attack they are normally saying it as the same time they are rolling. There is absolutely no time to respond with opportune parry. In the current module I am in at the moment, it has been ruled by the current gm and in agreement by the few other gamemasters who are playing in it (one a four star gm) that in reality there is no point in which this ability can be used in the current games.
This ability was the the main reason I wanted to play this class. Its an amazing ability, but we are being blocked from using it in the games.
At this point I am so frustrated while playing this character, but still committed to it.
The problem I am having with the swashbuckler is based on this wording: "The swashbuckler must declare the use of this ability after the creature’s attack is announced, but before that attack roll is made." Both in real life and in the online communities, when a gm rolls an attack they are normally saying it as the same time they are rolling. There is absolutely no time to respond with opportune parry. In the current module I am in at the moment, it has been ruled by the current gm and in agreement by the few other gamemasters who are playing in it (one a four star gm) that in reality there is no point in which this ability can be used in the current games.
This ability was the the main reason I wanted to play this class. Its an amazing ability, but we are being blocked from using it in the games.
Seriously?
The GM in question cannot accommodate you? And other people seem to think that is totally cool? Why don't you just have him roll up your next character for you since that way he won't have to strain himself in the name of having fun.
Wow. Maybe I'm being harsh because I'm depressed from rolling up sub-par swashbucklers while watching Inigo wrecking guards in a hallway, but that seems to fly right in the face of everything a GM is supposed to do: make the game fun.
Back to the topic at hand, Parry and Riposte feel a little overpriced as I work through some RotR encounters. Considering that a barbarian can skip parry and go right for riposte with Come and Get Me (albeit with penalties a SB could never hope to withstand), I wonder if it would be better to allow for Riposte to not cost either the panache or the AoO (prefer AoO since I think there should be a reason to have Charisma). Possibly receive Riposte at a later level to account for this? Just spitballing while I make a million characters.
Knick,
I think expax has a point. Even with a friendly DM, he has to stop and check for EVERY single hit on the swasbuckler which will slow things down considerably.
Making it work after the hit would solve that problem, as well as the overpriced problem (since I think someone figured out the action is wasted 70% of the time... that math seems about right)
I totally agree with Parry being decided after the hit in order to save resources, although it creates a metagame problem at my table where all dice are rolled in front of the screen. That said, as I person who has been running games for over two decades, I have never had a problem with a quick question. Giving the player one second to decide by saying "the monster attacks you. Parry?" is not that big of a deal. It's basic table management. Slow down a little? Sure. Slow down considerably? No way. Also, once the SB is out of AoOs or Panache you can stop asking that round. I mean, how do they handle dual-cursed oracles or any other immediate ability?
Going back to the Parry thing though, I see the argument to elect to do it after the hit is rolled, which will not only make the panache point worth spending, but also speed up combat. I think the devs, however, worded Parry the way they did to accommodate Riposte, because if you choose after a hit is rolled, you can never take advantage of Riposte on a miss. It is sort of like my Jedi Master in Star Wars with a DC of 49 who could never be missed by only 5 and therefore never deflected a blaster shot ever.
So I see both points, and maybe the solution is to allow the selection either before or after the roll.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have the Swashbuckler fall slightly behind in flat damage (although it seems like one person's build had him evening out with the fighter pretty well) and be more useful in other ways, or have his damage boosted in a less direct way, than have Dex and Cha to damage. Its fine for a magic item quality because it's... well, magic.
The expanded crit ranges is a good start, though it doesn't come online until much later. Focusing on the bravado/intimidation aspect of the class at earlier levels could be an interesting way to handle it.
I back this idea 100%
I agree with damage slightly behind the fighter. I feel that the best class at fighting should always be the fighter. That said, when a construct rolls into combat a SB is a lot less than slightly behind, and the party wizard isn't in a great place either. Planning to test that out soon.
The reason I'm posting right now, however, is that I love Menacing Swordplay. A lot.
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TLDR
Elven curve blade should have a chance with this class
All the piercing stuff made me think fencer was a better name but I disliked the thought of disallowing the classic long sword or sabre.
Please make the class more about dex/speed/agility and less emphasized on piercing.
I do not think I will ever play a spellless(resource managed classes also include Psionics, Bo9S, arcanum, ect) but I did get the feel this was heading towards what so many people say they want for the dex based combatant.
The weapon finesse at level 1 (and moving parry etc to level 2) I suppose is possible but what if players are using non finessable slashing/piercing weapons (not sure there are any but stay with me).
I wouldn't especially miss panache at level 1 if there was a worry about too appealing of a first level for dips. The only panache ability I was really using at level 1 was retreat, and I it was a pretty dicey and advanced tactic only coming into play when things had 2 or 3 attacks at that level.
Worrying about players who aren't using finessable weapons is just kind of silly though. Might as well say "I'm worried about how the gunslinger class works for people who don't use guns." This is a class designed to make a very specific sort of character viable, by modifying the hell out of a fighter. If you aren't trying to make that sort of character, you don't need these modifications, and a regular fighter works just fine.
Alright, built a 5th level character.. he's getting more likable. I think with this class the early levels would be the most painful - though I do understand the 'not wanting to frontload' the first level stuff.
Heres my 5th level version of the above character:
Julio, The Dashing Swordsman
Str 14, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14
These are really interesting to me. Mainly in how similar they are to what I'm doing over here in terms of where stats really just have to be committed. With this here 25 point build, you hit the minimum str for power attack etc. which makes a world of difference but... this is also being done with a 25 point build. If you're running APs (or playing PFS I believe?) you're limited to 15 points, which simply is not enough to cover all these bases without some sacrifices you shouldn't be asked to make.
To this though I must yet again countergument vehemently.
2. Cha bonus to all saves at 2nd level would be too good, especially for the purposes of people dipping two levels and continuing with another class.
How so? A two level dip into paladin gets you the same ability, the same BAB, better saves, detect evil, smite (which frontloads all the cha based bonuses to hit AC and saves), and lay on hands. Are you really suggesting people would rather come in 2 levels for fake weapon finesse instead of all that?
4. And yet again I really cannot understand this logic at all. Why would you shoe-horn the class into a highly limited choice of builds and weapons ("Oh, you're playing a swashbuckler and want to know how to play it ? Just pump dex and pick Dervish Dance and Power Attack because all other options will make you suck hard at your job."), when we definitely have the opportunity right now to help design a class that allows for a wide variety of characters, efficient at their job, versatile in their builds and tactics and fun to play ? What does it bring to everyone's table if your class can only be built in a single fashion if it wants to survive adventures ?
Pathfinder has always been all about choice even if some are less optimal than others. There is no reason to dedicate time and work designing a one-trick pony whose other choices aren't even suboptimal but stupidly weak, when it would take the same amount of time beginning right now to design an awesome class covering a lot of roleplaying grounds all the while keeping the panache/agility overall thematic.
We've got the chance to help build a cool class right now, and a lot of simple suggestions have already been made which if integrated to the Swashbuckler's skeleton, would balance nicely all builds based on specific weapons, tactics, damage, AC, feints and combat maneuvers. The Dervish Dancer would still be a potent option with balanced strengths and drawbacks. The Power Attack-ing swashbuckler would still be a potent option with balanced strengths and drawbacks. The rapier/dual wielding/light weapons/exotic weapons/cloak and blade/buckler wielding swashbuckler would still be a potent option with strengths and drawbacks. Same for the mobile spring-attacking swashbuckler or the one fighting defensively, or the one with style feats, or the unarmed one, etc etc.
Again, there is NO need to shoe-horn the class when it can be balanced with a number of lines in the rules you could count on one hand.
The idea with dex-to-damage at level 4 is to allow people to play a dex-based swashbuckler without making dervish dancer a more or less mandatory feat. This class gets access to a decent variety of weapons (which could stand to be a lot more decent, I'd really like to see a list of "swashbuckler weapons" with some hand-picked variety in place of "light or one-handed piercing weapons" for all these abilities), but if you actually try and play with those weapons, and make use of the free finesse you're being handed, this is what you end up with. A level 5 fighter who doesn't qualify for half the combat feats that does 1d6+6 damage, or 2d6+7 on a crit. It just plain isn't viable. And this isn't even "a fighter who can do some extra stuff." This is a more limited fighter, specialized in a very narrow field of weapons, which don't do significant damage.
If you have at least a 14 cha like Debbie here, that's never going to be worth a feat slot. You can coast by just fine on just the two points. If you have anything less than 14 cha, you are given at least the 1 freebie point, which is almost all you need. Take a single feat and you can dump what feels like it should be the second most important stat for the class to no adverse effect. Honestly, I'd even suggest removing that "(minimum 1)." Probably want to replace it with a note about not bottoming out from temporary penalties/cha damage though.I don't understand why you feel the actual, current playtest's swashbuckler has enough panache already. Just to parry and counterattack, you need 2 points, and doing that effectively neuters your damage output if you haven't at least 16 Cha.
How would you find the place to pick 1 more panache point with a feat under the current incredibly starved ruleset ?
If you dig out the segment of my playtest with the level 5 build posted I think it was, there's a point where I really give a long-winded analysis of parry/riposte. Short version, it is complete garbage. You will always have better uses for that panache, odds of it ever saving you from an attack are terrible, the AOOs are too costly... the only way I could see it being useful would be if the panache and AOO costs were combined, making it a single ability, in which case hey, you still have nothing that requires 3 points in your pool.
I also already covered the notion of getting extra panache from non-cha sources. It would make charisma a no brainer dump stat, which it should not be for this class.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have the Swashbuckler fall slightly behind in flat damage (although it seems like one person's build had him evening out with the fighter pretty well) and be more useful in other ways, or have his damage boosted in a less direct way, than have Dex and Cha to damage. Its fine for a magic item quality because it's... well, magic.
The expanded crit ranges is a good start, though it doesn't come online until much later. Focusing on the bravado/intimidation aspect of the class at earlier levels could be an interesting way to handle it.
At this point, you're really asking for a totally different class than what we have here... which I'm pretty sure is just "rogue" actually. This is, flat out, a highly specialized fighter. Specialized in the sense that it is giving up its main two advantages (versatility and reliability of weapon options, having their cake and eating it too with heavy armor and dex/movement), to just commit to a single weapon type.
Really, it should be doing more damage than a regular fighter under ideal circumstances, because it doesn't have ideal circumstances as often, and doesn't really do anything a fighter can't.
That theorycrafted damage readout for them is based on a lot of rather sketchy assumptions, including a feat that does not actually exist, and I believe on being able to spend panache for damage on every attack, which... is not actually a thing that can be done. Swift action to activate, and you have to have the point to spend.
In practice, especially with a dex build, I think you always wind up trailing slightly behind a fighter when you really try to do it, according to any way I can put one together, and that's with the assumption that you are somehow adding your primary stat to damage and taking power attack.
The goal with the changes I'm suggesting is to get a narrowly specialized fighter to a point where it almost has the damage output of a non-specialized fighter, using whatever weapon they feel like using.
I definitely see the argument to add Dex to damage, but I still don't agree with it. Am I crazy? I think it could be overpowered; combined with adding level to damage (that can also crit) and the class abilities that increase your crit range. Coupled with some feats (like vital strike or power attack) and I'm dishing out pretty good damage with just rapier similar to a fighter at the same level (maybe a bit less, but whatever). I think being able to use dex with damage would maybe be too exploitable by powergamers. Then we'd all just sink our best two stats into Dex and Cha. I'm expecting a lot of beef for this
WITH THAT SAID- the class's damage output might be a bit weaker, but I think the developers did that purposefully due to the inclusions of deeds that let you do more on the battlefield instead of just shear damage. So I can see the trade off.
I do agree with the argument that class abilities that are feats should count as prerequisites for other feats. For example- "Nimble" is Dodge with a different name. I think it should count for Dodge so I can get Mobility. I KNOW that with the Gunslinger that this isn't the case, but the gunslinger is a ranged character, so it's less necessary. The Swashbuckler is a front-line fighter, and is meant to be "nimble" so I can hop around the battlefield and stab enemies. But using a precious feat to get an additional dodge bonus, just so I can have the prerequisite for Mobility is a bummer, since I already have that feat built into my character.
You cannot make this class work with only two stats. Try and put together a build where everything is in dex and cha, and you will see major problems. I'm trying to do it right here, and this character is a complete joke every other level, and otherwise just kinda sad.
You're also overestimating the utility of deeds. As I keep pointing out, panache does not work like a ki pool. It's more like having a floating feat that shuts off every time you use it and turns back on when you crit. All the theorycrafting where you're doing fighter-equivalent damage is assuming any time you have more than 1 panache, you are immediately burning it for extra damage. If you give that up, you can basically spend it for a combat maneuver, a dodge, or a novelty skill bonus.
How so? A two level dip into paladin gets you the same ability, the same BAB, better saves, detect evil, smite (which frontloads all the cha based bonuses to hit AC and saves), and lay on hands. Are you really suggesting people would rather come in 2 levels for fake weapon finesse instead of all that?
The difference is, Paladin's MUST be Lawful Good to even take the class, and if you ever break that alignment, or be anything other than a Lawful Good Paladin, you loose what you dipped for.
Paladin is, in many ways, the most defining class in the game. If you are playing a 19th level Fighter/1st level Paladin, every one is going to call your character a Paladin because that one single level of Paladin defines what your character can and can't do more than the 19 levels of Fighter do.
As a Paladin, you can't lie, you can't cheat, you can't steal, you can't murder, you have to help good people, you have to be noble etc. etc. etc.
The Swashbuckler has no such restrictions. If Swashbuckler got Charisma to saves at level 2, many classes (like Oracle, Bard, Summoner, Sorcerer, maybe even Clerics) would take that 2 level dip to shore up weak saves. Bard's especially could make great use of the Swashbuckler benefits, along with their own Bardic abilities.
Monks are, arguably, the only class that can dip Paladin and not be overly restricted, since they already have to be lawful as it is (except Martial Artist). However, Charisma is also the one stat that Monks can get away with dumping, as it's the only stat they don't really need.
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I decided to work out the DPR of two builds, to see if Dervish Dance is as compulsory as everyone says.
One build uses a rapier, the other a scimitar.
The target has an assumed AC of 20. Panache to double the damage of precise strike was not modeled.
Hopefully I have not made any mathematics errors… I'm sure people will correct me if I have... :-)
The results were interesting.
The Build at level 4:
The Dread Pirate Westley Roberts
Level 4 Human Swashbuckler (20 point buy)
Str 13
Dex 18 (16 + 2 racial)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
AC: 22 (Armour +5, Buckler +2, Dex +4, Nimble + 1)
Touch: 15 Flat Footed: 17
Saves: Fort: 3 Reflex: 9 Will: 2
BAB: 4
Rapier Build Feats: H: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialisation (Rapier).
Scimitar Build Feats: H: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance.
Equipment: Chain Shirt + 1, Buckler + 1, Cloak of Resistance + 1, Rapier or Scimitar + 1, Fancy Pirate Clothes.
Melee: rapier + 10 ( 1d6+4 / 18-20) + 4 precise strike.
Melee: scimitar +9 (1d6+5 / 18-20) + 4 precise strike.
Power Attack: -2 / +4/
DPR Scimitar, no power attack: 6.89
DPR Rapier, no power attack : 6.94
DPR Scimitar, power attack: 7.35
DPR Rapier, power attack: 7.75
Winner Rapier! :-)
@ Googleshng- I don't know if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me about not using dex for damage, haha. But you quoted me and that makes me feel important :)
Yeah, but that won't keep up later, when the Dervish Dance Swashbuckler gets the feats he missed out on early to get Dervish Dance.
Yeah, but that won't keep up later, when the Dervish Dance Swashbuckler gets the feats he missed out on early to get Dervish Dance.
Kind of depends on whether or not that Rapier picks up Agile on his rapier or not. If he doesn't then the Dervish Dancer will indeed quickly outpace the Rapier.
One problem with Agile is that without access to a Wizard, a Magic Mart, or a sympathetic DM, you can't get it.
Another is that Agile is a property of your weapon, not your character. For a start, it's thematically disappointing. For another thing, if your gear gets taken away, a Dervish Dancer can pick up any Scimitar and get his Dex to Damage back. The guy relying on his Agile Rapier loses that damage until he gets his Rapier back. At least Precise Strike ensures he's not hitting like a complete pansy, but he's still behind.
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I'm thinking finesse at first, a "swashbuckling" weapon group, some tweaks to the parry/riposte, some tweaks to panache, and a dex to damage option would be perfect.
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Yeah, but that won't keep up later, when the Dervish Dance Swashbuckler gets the feats he missed out on early to get Dervish Dance.
At level 8:
The Dread Pirate Westley Roberts
Human Swashbuckler 8 (20 point buy)
Str 13
Dex 18 (16 + 2 racial +2 level)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
Rapier Build Feats: H: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialisation (Rapier), Defiant Luck, Inexplicable Luck, Greater Weapon Focus.
Scimitar Build Feats: H: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Defiant Luck, Inexplicable Luck, Weapon Focus
Equipment: Mithral Chain Shirt + 2, Buckler + 1, Cloak of Resistance + 2, Rapier +1, Agile or Scimitar + 2, Fancy Pirate Clothes, Clear Ioun Stone resonating in Wayfinder, Ring + 1, Amulet +1, Belt of Dex +2.
Melee: rapier +1, Agile: + 18 ( 1d6+10 / 15-20) + 8 precise strike.
Melee: scimitar + 2: + 18 (1d6+ 9 / 15-20) + 8 precise strike.
Winner: Rapier!
I think if a DM allows Dervish Dance, they will allow Agile Weapons.
Slashing is better at penetrating DR, but as Westley is a pirate, his rapier is better as he may have to fight underwater.
Also, this comparison highlights the importance of Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse not counting as a prerequisite for Dervish Dance. If you remove the Weapon Finesse feat tax on Dervish Dance, the Scimitar will be better.
You forgot to give the scimitar build Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Focus, which were the line of feats that magnuskn was referring to.
Winner: scimitar :(
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The scimitar build would have weapon specialisation, making it the winner.
Point taken, but the scimitar build would be one feat behind the rapier build.
That one feat may be extremely good - for example - crane riposte.
In any case, I think it illustrates that a scimitar build is not compulsory, and a rapier build is highly competitive, especially at low levels :-)
Yeah, but that won't keep up later, when the Dervish Dance Swashbuckler gets the feats he missed out on early to get Dervish Dance.
I hate Dervish Dance. You can use Dervish Dance, but you can't use Dervish Dance.
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I don't think a Swashbuckler should match a Fighter in DPR. In my opinion a SB should do about 25% less damage, because a SB gets more skills and skillpoints, plus a lot more mobility.
In a stand up fight on an open field the SB should lose to the Fighter. The SB should get hacked to pieces.
On a boat, on rough terrain, or in a banquet hall with chandeliers, stairs, and long drapes, the Fighter should lose to the SB. The Fighter would sink, stumble, or say make a terminal faux pas.
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I really don't want this class to be swamped with dervish dance. I really hope a dex to damage option is put in. I also really like the swashbuckler weapon group idea.
Where is this "a lot more mobility" you speak of? After mentioning it in the class description it is mostly absent.
I'll give you "some more mobility."
Where is this "a lot more mobility" you speak of? After mentioning it in the class description it is mostly absent.
+1