This is a lot closer, mechanically, than the paizo pdf version. Much more balanced, d easier to build mechanical variety, and role play build freedom as well.
It is amazing at how often someone can say the same thing over and over without looking at any of the evidence to the contrary.
At this point I have no idea what else I can possibly say, so I am just waiting for the FAQ to prove us right. I mean, we have used simpler analogies, standing FAQ's, and even cold hard evidence from Paizo's own product, and they still want to argue the point. I am just following the thread hoping for a FAQ at this point.
james maissen wrote:
No, no he wouldn't. Think of it like this. There two hallways. One is the sorcerer hallway, and each door contains something you get if you leveled as a sorcerer.
The other is the PrC hallway. The doors there contain what you get when you level as the PrC.
Fly, a bloodline spell, is locked behind a door in the sorcerer hallway, because it is gained as a bloodline class ability.
When you level in a PrC that grants +1 spellcasting, you get to open a door that gives you spells per day, and spells known. Since fly is still locked behind that door (because it is given as a class ability, and therefore not a "spell known" until you have the key to open the door), you do not get it. The only way to get it is to do one of three things:
1. Take levels in sorcerer until you can open the door.
Spells known, in the literally definition, is a misnomer in this case. Yes, if you have fly, you know it. However, in this case, it is simply the name of a class feature. Yes, if you gain fly through a bloodline power, you know the spell. But that's not what the class feature means. It means you have a spells known table, that tells you what you get when you gain a sorcerer level. That table is advanced by a +1 spellcasting PrC.
If it helps you, think of this: The design team recently ruled on the TWF while THF fighting thing because it was "too powerful". If they think THAT is too powerful, why on Golarion would they rule that a sorcerer would gain everything that matters in a PrC, and not have to take any more sorcerer levels.
If that were the case, you would never see any sorcerers, ever, that didn't PrC as soon as they got the chance.
I really, really, hope this helps you.
Shadowcat is not confused, nor am I. I'm on my phone, and didn't feel like retyping your quotewhen I accidentally deleted part of it. Shadowcat is trying to get you to realize your own confusion by making you answer very simple questions that will make you see the truth of the matter. Spells known is a game mechanic, bloodline spells is a different game mechanic. Spells known is advanced, the other is not.
For reference on bloodline spells:
That quote debunks your entire argument. linguistically, by RAW, the words "in addition to" means they are not counted as spells known, but as a class ability. Do you know the spells? Of course. Literally, you know them. Mechanically, they are a class ability and are not leveled by a PrC other than one that specifically says so.
I'm the one DM'g. Just thought I'd drop by. I will be making some minor changes here and there, but yes, the PC's will be lawbreakers. I'm not changing anything plot wise, just a few tweaks to the ship combats, and some npc's. Nothing major.
I'm very interested in the monk. The OP is very good at backstories and playing in both character and alignment.
Sword and pistol looks like a great feat, but are all the prerequisites too steep for a cleric 15 gunslinger 5? The character is for skull and shackles, and will alternate cleric and gunslinger levels until the five levels are reached. He has the trait that raises his cl for his cleric by two. He is Dex based with a rapier, and weapon finesse.
I settled on a human cleric with a three level dip into gunslinger, starting at gunslinger for the first level for the benefits. This makes for excellent saves, and a better skill selection. Here it is:
Cleric 1 / Gunslinger 1
AC 17 (chain shirt)
I'm on my phone, so I left out the class granted stuff. I took only one domain so I could have a viper familiar, for fluff.
And wondering, what traits, feats, and stats YOU would choose to make a swashbuckling, derring-do cleric.
Granted, I know making a DEX based cleric who can still heal and be the parties sole source of divine magic can be tough, I believe it can be done. Are there any traits that make climb and acrobatics class skills? I haven't found any...
I'll post my own build later, when I'm not on my phone.
20 point buy.
^^ Not to be also unhelpful, but that was a pretty good save.
On topic, my uncle ran an ogre mage in 3.5 that did TWF with greatswords and he was an absolute beast. the only way our DM was able to contain his damage to a reasonable level was to constantly stuff us in tiny hallways. Your DPR may not be the best in the game ever, but it'll be a lot better than 90% of any other TWF build, I think.
This is why I prefer 20 point buy anyway. You get the same results (for the most part) as if you had rolled well, and you get to allocate them where you want. It allows the optimizer in my party to have his precious dump stats. It allows my two role players to spread their stats out and have the weaknesses and strengths they envisioned for their character, and it allows my player who ALWAYS runs a rogue or bard (or a rogue/bard) to have the stats he needs, where he needs.
Everyone is happy. It is then on me, as the DM, to come up with encounters, both social and combat, that play to the parties strengths and weaknesses, and give everyone a chance to shine.
I think this is the mindset your party needs, or I see a lot of inter-player drama with you, and that usually culminates into a bad time.
And that is not what GAMING is about, right?
Was the cleric out of spells? That would make sense as to why he was up front. I mean, you stuck the party with a BRUTAL encounter at level 1, and by your tone, you seemed to have it out for the cleric to begin with.
So in fairness to the player, what was the situation with HIM? Out of spells? New to the game? Didn't know how many spells per day he had? Didn't have any more spells that would help the combat, so he tried to help with melee?
I have to be honest, I ran a battle cleric in 3.5 with almost the EXACT same statline, and he was a beast in combat. Not because he beat things to death with a pointy piece of metal, but because his DCs were hard to beat. His spells did tons of damage. And you know what? He sucked for the first few levels because he never had enough spells.
As a DM, it is YOUR responsibility to award player ingenuity. Give him a break every now and then if he ran out of spells. Pull some punches if he is new and didn't know that a monster with three attacks could kick him senseless at level 1. If he doesn't know the system, help him. If he is building his character like this to be more awesome in a few levels, don't purposefully try to kill him.
However, there is a flip side to that. If he does know the system, and did that because he made a truly DUMB decision, then you are more than welcome to let the dice fall where they may. A character dying from a player's dumb decision is permissible. A character dying because the DM has a personal vendetta against him for being unoptimized....
Well, that calls for a new DM.
This is probably one of my favorite items as well.