So I'm running a Swash for PFS. While building the saves were just going to be too bad so I decided to dip. I just leveled to 3. I didn't play swash at level 1 as it is just way underwhelming and not a front liner there even with Str build. AC is just low. So I rebuilt for level 2 and was Swash/Paladin. Now this level of play was not bad. I went Half Orc with scarred tattoo and fates favored. My saves are +5/+5/+4. stats are 18/12/12/7/10/16. I am wearing plate mail and useing the buckler so AC is good for tier. I realy enjoy the parry, it saved me in the Dalsine Affair at the end. Now at level 3 taking 2nd palading level boost saves to to +9/+8/+8 this makes me feel way better than a strait swash build. Strait swash and not having room to add to wisdome or raise con too high realy makes the class hard to play strait. I look forward to going strait swash for the rest of my career to see how it goes,
Side note not sure if this has been asked or covered. Can Swash parry a melee touch attacks. I assume yes. Just checking. Thanks.
I gave both 10 strength, as the damage and hitting will be based on precision and Dexterity. I really only had enough points for 3 decent ability scores, and that meant Dex, Int (for Combat Expertise and skill points), and Cha (for social skills, another important trope of swashbucklers and key to panache).So many people claim that ACG class X (just jump into the class discussion forum) is MAD but they are not. I think the source of this is that people think class x should be able to do great at y and expect that there is no tradeoff involved if they build class x to do great at y. Doing great at combat maneuvers however is a huge tradeoff (in a 15p buy at least). If you put a 13 in the only true dump stat of the swashbuckler you can't expect him to keep up otherwise. Combat expertise is nothing you have to take and you could just build another class into duelist if you think you NEED it.
Related to that people keep wondering why class x is not doing great at y when they have build a character exactly like the class should be built. The swashbuckler class advertises that a physical less powerful character can still take on brutes in melee. Then they build a gnome with 5 str and feel disappointed when they see how badly they suck in melee... That gnome might be ok after he got weapon finesse and when precise strike starts to kick in (at least if he manages to lift his rapier). Less powerful however doesn't necessarily mean weaker by a wide margin. I don't remember that swashbuckler in literature generally had a below average strength (maybe with the exception of Reepicheep). Most swashbuckler I saw in movies and literature were physical fit and trained combatants. That means ABOVE average strength. They are just not as strong as hercules or hulk. As mentioned earlier the advertisment would still be true if they are of high enough level. The whole issue with players building 7 str 20 dex chars and write rage posts afterwards that read like "OMFG WHY NO WEAPON FINESSE AT LVL ONE" and "NEED DEX TO DMG" sound to me like a level one wizard wondering why he can't cast like a level 20 wizard although he maxed int to 20. Just put 12-14 points in str. Most literature swashbuckler would propably fall into that range and real world fencer are no weaklings by default (quite the contrary their forearms are usually better developed than those of trained athletes following other disciplines). BTW historical rapiers weighed just as much as historical longswords.
Well, I was going with the approach, "What feels like a swashbuckler to me, damn the consequences!" He has a 16 Dex and 14 Cha; not earth breaking by any means. I could have gone with above average Str, but instead chose to place a 12 in Con for better Hp and Fort saves. I could have taken Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in there, but instead went with Improve Disarm and Acrobatics to make him a mobile, agile technique fighter over raw damage. And he is still doing well at 3rd and 4th. At 5th the Weapon Training with its Improved Critical makes Panache much easier to reboot, and I've taken Extra Panache (Grit) as a Feat to cover my lack of super high Charisma.
The truth is, with the Extra Grit Feat, you don't need anything other than Dex to play a Swashbuckler; but a lot of the fun of the iconic character is outside of combat or the way he performs in combat. That means you should have some decent (not massive) alternate ability scores and a good skill selection. At least, in my humble opinion. :)
I love the talking in combat with the class, I know you can do this with any class, but it seems more fitting with the swash. I kept offering the Magus a chance to surrender as I parried his attacks telling him he had no hope in our duel. It wasn't until one of our party members decided to provoke from him even against my/our recomendation not too considering he was holding a charge of shocking grasp. Well or course the GM crited and the PC was 2nd level with only 13 hp so well yeah he died. After this I smited and decided the play talk and askinf for surrender was over. I love the flavor of the class. My only real problem with it is the saves and weapon restrictions feeling not other choice besides rapier for str build and the obvious dervish dance scimitar. Looking forward to see what changes are made. And I only have 3 panach and had no trouble refilling as I droped an number of bad guys.
Why do you say one attack per round? The playtest does not have that limit and neither does signature deed. If you used signature deed on parry you can use it dex+1 times per round with the only cost being giving up opportunity attacks you would have otherwise done.Well, RAW, yes. So at 11th level you can pick ONE of them (I'll assume Parry for the sake of this discussion). You'll get to Parry one attack against you per round for the cost of an AoO (which isn't reduced by Signature Deed), and on the off chance Parry does work, you can spend a panache and another AoO to attack back. Not particularly fearsome (better get Combat Reflexes previously)...[Snip]
**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
[Snip]
• In the Precise Strike deed, change the second sentence to "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler." Delete the third sentence. Only creatures immune to sneak attacks are immune to precise strike. In the second paragraph, replace the first sentence with the following: "As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack". Add the following to the end of the paragraph: The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other ability that reduces the amount of panache this deed costs".
[Snip](Sorry if this is a repost)
... So this means we can use Signature Deed for Opportune Parry & reposte?
Exactly:
Lvl 11 - Signature Deed Opportune ParryLvl 12 - Signature Deed Riposte
Now you don't have to worry about Panache for the two main draws of a Swashbuckler, and you're only limited by your max dex + 1 (which will turn out to be the main ability score for this class)
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Played a Swashbuckler this weekend for Skull and Shackles. I loved this class at level 6 (I should see it in action at level 7 in a few weeks).
The skills worked out wonderfully, and with Signature Deed for Derring-Do I was able to use it every time I made an acrobatics roll, which I was taking a lot of advantage of to do things life balancing on the rail on the edge of the ship, or to tumble between enemies to get to a better position.
Due to some role-playing that had been going on I was caught without any of my gear but a Ring of Protection and my +1 Agile Rapier. After taking half my health in damage from a fireball I was attacked by the Big Bad of the encounter who, without any of my equipment, only had to hit a 16 to get me. If it hadn't been for Parry I'd have been rolling up a new character.
Here are my thoughts on what the class was like, laid out as best I can:
Opportune Parry: This was useful, but we had to house rule the costs after the first combat. I could make a parry as long as I had a point of panache and spent the opportunity attack. It otherwise functioned as normal.
Repost: When I used this it made the encounter. It helps that it was a critical hit but the chance to completely shift the tide of battle with this class ability was awesome.
Recovery: I used it once to see how it would play out and never used it again. The +2 to AC was alright, and we had enough space that I didn't provoke the opportunity attack, but in a tighter battlefield I would rather turn to Opportune Parry and see how it plays out. At least then I'm only getting attacked by one opponent.
Menacing Swordplay: Unfortunately this didn't come up, entirely because I forgot that it was there. *facepalm* Next time I'll be making better use of it.
Precise Strike: This was awesome. I get that it is really the source for the Swashbuckler's damage, and so it has to be pretty good, but I was getting a ton of extra damage from it by spending panache. The two-hander barb made a hit for 41, I followed up with two hits for 38. Her's was a crit, mine were not. It helps that I was given the okay for the agile weapon, so my dex was a factor, but otherwise I attribute my damage output entirely to this.
Swashbuckler Initiative: Free bonus to my initiative. 'Nough said.
Bravery: Never came up.
Swashbuckler Finesse: It freed me up a feat, and my GM cleared it to qualify for anything that uses Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite.
Nimble: As I was stuck in the rather compromising situation of having no protective gear other than my Ring of Protection, the dodge bonus offered by this helped me out on two different occasions. Thank goodness for dodge bonuses.
I admit that the dice were rolling in my favor on game night, and I rolled about five crits during the curse of the game, but I feel like the class is really well done. A few tweaks to the mechanics and I think that this will be a repeat class for me many times in the future. There's just something about the agile, precision fighter that has always drawn me in.
I'll post up more thoughts as they happen, but till then thank you for the awesome playtest, and thank you all for the feedback. It's been great to watch it all come together.
Why do you say one attack per round? The playtest does not have that limit and neither does signature deed. If you used signature deed on parry you can use it dex+1 times per round with the only cost being giving up opportunity attacks you would have otherwise done.
Unless you have Combat Reflexes, you only get one Attack of Opportunity (therefore one Opportune Parry) per round. The High-Strength Low-Charisma builds don't worry about that because Opportune Parry is a weak mechanic.
The whole issue with players building 7 str 20 dex chars and write rage posts afterwards that read like "OMFG WHY NO WEAPON FINESSE AT LVL ONE" and "NEED DEX TO DMG" sound to me like a level one wizard wondering why he can't cast like a level 20 wizard although he maxed int to 20. Just put 12-14 points in str. Most literature swashbuckler would propably fall into that range and real world fencer are no weaklings by default (quite the contrary their forearms are usually better developed than those of trained athletes following other disciplines). BTW historical rapiers weighed just as much as historical longswords.
It's nothing like that at all. At level 1 a Wizard has a few good tricks, and a Crossbow for the rest of the time. He's supposed to be carried to a certain extent by the martial classes. The Swashbuckler, being a martial class and therefore expected to do his share of the heavy lifting, should not have to be carried through the low levels.
To an extent, the martial classes are front-loaded already. Low levels represent low fantasy, and a Mundane Melee Fighter is a low fantasy concept. At high levels the martial classes are high speed death machines, but the casters are the very masters of creation.
Yes real-life fencers are fit athletes, but the point about MAD still stands. That 14 Strength could have been 14 Wisdom to partly make up for that crippling Will Save. It could be 14 Intellect to get a decent number of skill points and the Combat Expertise line. Look at it this way, if you rolled up (or were given) an array with an 8 in it, where would it go?
- Not Strength, because some forumgoers successfully lobbied to retain it as a requirement.
- Not Dexterity, because you're presumably using it to hit, among some other little perks.
- Not Constitution, because you need it even more than most people as a melee fighter with a bad Fort save.
- Not Intelligence, because you would like Combat Expertise feats, and enough skill points to cover at least your basics.
- Not Wisdom, because your Will save sucks as it is.
- Not Charisma, because your class features use it.
This is MAD by definition.
As my Swashbuckler levels up, I'm experiencing a lack of options. Fighters always feel like they're nothing but options. A fighter can be Dex-based, Two-Weapon, Two-Handed, Mobile. Even if it's not to the same degree, I feel like there should be some choices with this character. As has been mentioned, even weapons I gravitate towards a rapier unless I want to go Dervish and then I use a scimitar - end of list. More than Weapon choice, I'm not making a choice with my abilities, just waiting for the next round of Deeds to open up. I have my feats, but I feel so many of them are already spoken for in order to make the most of my abilities (Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw).
Gunslinger feels similarly, as it felt to me like the main choice I was making was pistol or musket, but I think that if this is really going to be a mix with a Fighter: I think more choices would be worthwhile. What about a signature weapon? I could make a Swashbuckler focusing on a cutlass (Jack Sparrow), or another one focusing on a quarterstaff (Little John?), still another might use a whip (Anthony Hopkins from Zorro?). Perhaps more bonus feats, or some choice in the style of your Deeds?
My friends and I were discussing what we wanted out of the swashbuckler, and hit on what we think is an interesting mechanical option. Replace Bravery with:
Dashing strike: When you use the attack action, you increase the critical threat range of your weapon by +1 per 4 levels of swashbuckler. This increased threat range is not multiplied by Improved critical or effects such as Keen.
What this means, is when you take a standard action attack, your critical range goes up, which refuels your panache more reliable, as well as adding damage. Combined with the Vital strike line, it will encourage players to use their move actions to set up an attack, either by actually moving (in awesome swaashbuckling style), or using improved feint to set up their attack against a highly agile opponent.
Considering the rapier (THE main weapon of the Swashbuckler) has a threat range of 18-20 and that goes up to 15-20 at 5th level, that is sort of already there. Only better for most characters under 16th level.
As my Swashbuckler levels up, I'm experiencing a lack of options. Fighters always feel like they're nothing but options. A fighter can be Dex-based, Two-Weapon, Two-Handed, Mobile. Even if it's not to the same degree, I feel like there should be some choices with this character. As has been mentioned, even weapons I gravitate towards a rapier unless I want to go Dervish and then I use a scimitar - end of list. More than Weapon choice, I'm not making a choice with my abilities, just waiting for the next round of Deeds to open up. I have my feats, but I feel so many of them are already spoken for in order to make the most of my abilities (Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw).
Gunslinger feels similarly, as it felt to me like the main choice I was making was pistol or musket, but I think that if this is really going to be a mix with a Fighter: I think more choices would be worthwhile. What about a signature weapon? I could make a Swashbuckler focusing on a cutlass (Jack Sparrow), or another one focusing on a quarterstaff (Little John?), still another might use a whip (Anthony Hopkins from Zorro?). Perhaps more bonus feats, or some choice in the style of your Deeds?
I proposed a Combat Style major class feature way, way back. Now that I think about it, it's probably best if we get the base Swashbuckler class right, with a Rapier/Sabre and Buckler, and use Archetypes for the different combat styles.
You can't pick up signature deed twice.
Is it listed somewhere in the FAQ/Messageboard that you can't take it more than once? (RAW doesn't indicate it & my quick peek over the faq/google search couldn't find anything saying that it you are only limited to 1 signature deed)
Peter
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Giving Swashbucklers the ability to add Dex modifier to damage and removing Precise Strike and maybe even the free Improved Critical would make for a much simpler class.
Weapon Finesse at 1st level is necessary if the class truly wants to be a Dex-based melee warrior. I don't see the problem with that.
If the purpose of the class is being a Dex-based melee warrior, then just make it a Dex-based warrior! There is no point in advertising this class as a Dex-centric and then refusing to give it anything related to Dex out of fear of it being too powerful.
Worrying about it being a dip class for those who want a dex-based warrior makes as much sense as worrying about Gunslingers being a dip class for people who want to use guns or Monk being a dip class for people who want to fight unarmed.
Give Swashbucklers effective and flavorful class features at higher levels and players will have enough incentive to stick with the class. Making it weak at low levels just punishes Swashbucklers even more.
Oh, well... Nevermind. I saddens me to say it, but I'm just giving up on this class 'til someone from Paizo announces some more changes to its design. Dervish Dance remains the only way to make dueling a viable combat style.
You can't pick up signature deed twice.Is it listed somewhere in the FAQ/Messageboard that you can't take it more than once? (RAW doesn't indicate it & my quick peek over the faq/google search couldn't find anything saying that it you are only limited to 1 signature deed)
PeterUnless otherwise stated on the feat description, each feat may only be taken once. This is inferred from several feat descriptions accompanied by this bit of text:
"Special: You can gain this feat multiple times."
Touche
*now crosses fingers & hopes that the full ACG release will come with a stacking signature deed*
Edit: Here's the closest I can find http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q0aj?Taking-the-same-feat-multiple-times (Spell Perfection not stacking due to no "Special: Feat can be taken multiple, etc.")
Dex to damage is not about Need, and it isn't about damage output either.
let me say that again in big text:
The swashbuckler needs to add dex to damage because if it does not, it is not a dex-based class. Building a dex based swashbuckler with the class as it stands IS A TRAP!!!!!
Way to use overly dramatic straw-men.
I guess the fact Parry is based on multiple AoOs (and thus, high Dex) ; that your AC is determined by Dex ; that you are limited to light armors meaning you need Dex to both have good AC and Touch AC ; that your attack bonus is based on Dex ; that Reflex are based on Dex ; that Acrobatics and a lot of other useful skills are based on Dex ; that all of these mean nothing in making the final Swashuckler a Dex based class because it doesn't also add this modifier to damage.
Gee, I do suppose giving XXX to damage is the only way to design a class around using an ability score now. And here I thought the hours I spent in my free time writing public houserules, including some nicely-rated paid works for 3PP gave me a little bit on insight on the whole "writing cool class features for Pathfinder classes balanced around a theme and going beyond simple damage" thing.
The current Swashbuckler suffers issues and would benefit from really being re-focused on Dexterity ; but saying that it NEEDS to add it to damage for it to be the major ability score ? No, it doesn't NEED TO.
Maybe it could get more use out of Dex-based skills. Deeds with saving throws based on Dex. Performing Reflex saving throws instead of Fort/Will a limited amount of times per day. Adding Dex to confirm critical hits with high-crit modifier/low-crit range weapons. A way to also deflect missiles with a Reflex save or AoO. All of these increase drastically the importance of Dex. None add Dex to damage.
Again, I am going to keep saying this until it sticks.
Fighters... ALL melee fighters, every single one of them, get the same benefits from a High Dex as a swashbuckler. With armor training, a 22 dex fighter can get his full Dex bonus to AC with Mithral Full-Plate at level 11.
So, a fighter is looking at all the same factors: Reflex save, AC, dex-based skills, touch AC etc.
Been going on for years. Strength still wins.
The Swashbuckler adds Parry and Riposte to that last... okay, sure. But with a 14 dex (12 plus a belt off Physical Perfection by level 10) they still get 3 AoOs per round. You probably don't have so much Panache that you can parry and riposte that often anyway.
So, either you are saying that all strength based melee fighters have been doing it wrong, and should clearly have been focusing on dexterity for all this time, or the current status quo of melee = strength is still the case for swashbucklers.
If fact, since they do not get access to TWF (the primary reason that fighters who aren't ranged might end up with a high dex) they pretty conclusively get LESS benefit than a fighter would.
So the age-old problem of the Dex fighter is still here, and is not being cured by calling out all of the same bonuses that Dex applies to.
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Weapon Selection
The limited weapon selection is pretty bad too. When facing skeletons, the Swashbuckler had no means to deal any real damage. And because its limited to light or one-handed piercing weapons, the player barely considered using any other weapon. The Weapon Restriction needlessly hurts character variety.
Also, Swashbucklers really should be proficient with whips!
...akip a lot...
Final Considerations
At least up to 6th level, IME, Swashbucklers have:
- Limited weapon selection. (Heavens forbid you need bludgeoning damage)
I agree with whips, but they already have proficiency in Morningstar (B & P) which works pretty well to take out skeletons.
Again, I am going to keep saying this until it sticks.
Fighters... ALL melee fighters, every single one of them, get the same benefits from a High Dex as a swashbuckler. With armor training, a 22 dex fighter can get his full Dex bonus to AC with Mithral Full-Plate at level 11.
So, a fighter is looking at all the same factors: Reflex save, AC, dex-based skills, touch AC etc.
Been going on for years. Strength still wins.
The difference here is Precise Strike doesn't work when two-handing. Str fighter that can't two-hand would not win versus Dervish Dance or agile fighter.
I agree with whips, but they already have proficiency in Morningstar (B & P) which works pretty well to take out skeletons.
Yeah, but Mornignstars are quite possibly the least Swasbuckler-ish weapon in the game other than heavy hammers. I suppose cestus help.
I really, really want this class to work. Both in fluff and crunch. But if it stays as it is, that just won't be the case... A Fighter, Gunslinger or Ranger with Dervish Dance still makes a better Swashbuckler.
Hell, even Barbarians can make better Swashbucklers!
The difference here is Precise Strike doesn't work when two-handing. Str fighter that can't two-hand would not win versus Dervish Dance or agile fighter.
That's offset by the fact that dueling is likely the weakest combat style in the game. It was not even close to being viable before Dervish Dance came around.
I'm all in favor of dropping Precise Strike and free Improved Critical for a much simpler Dex-to-damage mechanic. Swashbucklers wouldn't be able to drop Str bellow 10~12 anyway, since doing so means they can wear armor and carry their weapons and gear without suffering from encumbrance.
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Yeah, but Mornignstars are quite possibly the least Swasbuckler-ish weapon in the game other than heavy hammers. I suppose cestus help.
I really, really want this class to work. Both in fluff and crunch. But if it stays as it is, that just won't be the case... A Fighter, Gunslinger or Ranger with Dervish Dance still makes a better Swashbuckler.
Hell, even Barbarians can make better Swashbucklers!
I can imagine a pretty kick-butt Dwarven Swashbuckler swinging a morningstar :]
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The problem they are running into is that the class title & description don't exactly align with the mechanics of the class. Why would a combo fighter / gunslinger be a swashbuckler? Shouldn't that be a combination of a rogue & a fighter? We think of The Princess Bride, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc, when we think of swashbuckler, but a fighter and a gunslinger hybrid doesn't make me mechanically think of that.
This ends up reflected in the mechanics; which just seem to be out there. The high strength swashbucklers, while fine mechanically, seem to go against the class' concept as a whole. STR 18 is Ahnuld level strength.
I think they should make the class far more focused on maneuvers and acrobatic movement during combats. First thought would be the ability to split a full attack action during the class's movement, meaning they could take a full round action to move and make a full attack, but be able to intersperse their attacks throughout their movement; even during acrobatic maneuvers. So a level 11 swashbuckler could run up 10 feet, make an attack, flip over the table, make an attack while a part of the flip, and make their final attack as they land on the ground.
My thought is that neither Rogues nor Fighters have Grit/Panache. The gunslinger part of the hybrid provides the mechanics for Grit/Panache which has a decidedly swashing feel to it.
I agree that some mobility items are needed, but at what expense? Which trait already there would you remove? I think the +6 to a skill check from Derring-Do is supposed to emulate this, but a better solution may be to allow an mid-move attack, at the cost of 1 Panache.
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Some side notes for everyone to contemplate on the forums, You can take signature deed more than once, there is no statement declaring that you
cannot take this more than once, beyond the normal limitations of the feat, or the deed in question. If something costs 2 grit to use(or panache in this case) you can take it twice to reduce the cost to 0. not worth it in most cases, but i digress. This class REALLY has a chance to shine in any mythic oriented game. Currently running the Wrath of the Righteous game(playing, not running sorry) and our "Guardian" <tank> is effectively just a high damage dealer in melee with alot of HP. do take into consideration signature deed(11th) for parry, and signature deed(12th bonus) for riposte, and with those, mythic combat reflexes<allowing any number of AoO per round> Leaves you with unmatched deflection capabilities in melee combat. even without mythic, and if you bump your dex as high as it can go, you can get some pretty high number of parries/ripostes.
In my opinion, this class wasn't meant to be a "cannon" for damage like the bloodrager. It was meant as a finesse melee fighter with some awesome abilities. Sure, the AC will be lower with light armor and a buckler, high dexterity will overcompensate for that in addition to the dodge bonus we get anyways. Bet crit range in the system? sweet! Capstone of another crit multiplier? even better! the saves are quite lacking but at the same time, you can't have the best of every world. If people look at this class more as a great flavor, with some rad defensive and offensive capabilities, there shouldn't be much that we can't accomplish.
As far as the dex to damage, sure. Dip a feat into dervish dance if you NEEEEEED it, or go with the agile weapon enhancement. or go with mythic weapon finesse etc. there are alot of options if you have to be the powerhouse. i see this being my first character to stand in melee and hold the line better than anyone else ever could. Looking into the trip feats to ensure that they can't move past me as well.
Mechanically speaking, Gunslingers & Monk would be the best combination for a Swashbuckler. Just change their features to be based on Cha rather than Wis.
Think about it:
From Gunslinger:
- Focus on Dex
- Full BAB
- Proficiency with martial weapons and light armor
- Cha-based Grit
- Bluff and other social skills as class skills
From Monk
- Speed
- Unarmed Strikes (Robin Hood and Zorro were not fist-fighters, but they surely saw their share of unarmed combat. That said, the progression for unarmed damage should be halved for Swashbucklers)
- Access to Improved Maneuver feats (Although this should be expanded so they get the Greater versions as well)
- Cha to AC & CMD when not donning armor
- Cha-based Ki(fused with the Cha-based Grit)
Add a few bonuses to Acrobatics and better deeds and we have an amazing Swashbuckler.
Some side notes for everyone to contemplate on the forums, You can take signature deed more than once, there is no statement declaring that you
cannot take this more than once, beyond the normal limitations of the feat, or the deed in question. If something costs 2 grit to use(or panache in this case) you can take it twice to reduce the cost to 0. not worth it in most cases, but i digress. This class REALLY has a chance to shine in any mythic oriented game. Currently running the Wrath of the Righteous game(playing, not running sorry) and our "Guardian" <tank> is effectively just a high damage dealer in melee with alot of HP. do take into consideration signature deed(11th) for parry, and signature deed(12th bonus) for riposte, and with those, mythic combat reflexes<allowing any number of AoO per round> Leaves you with unmatched deflection capabilities in melee combat. even without mythic, and if you bump your dex as high as it can go, you can get some pretty high number of parries/ripostes.
In my opinion, this class wasn't meant to be a "cannon" for damage like the bloodrager. It was meant as a finesse melee fighter with some awesome abilities. Sure, the AC will be lower with light armor and a buckler, high dexterity will overcompensate for that in addition to the dodge bonus we get anyways. Bet crit range in the system? sweet! Capstone of another crit multiplier? even better! the saves are quite lacking but at the same time, you can't have the best of every world. If people look at this class more as a great flavor, with some rad defensive and offensive capabilities, there shouldn't be much that we can't accomplish.As far as the dex to damage, sure. Dip a feat into dervish dance if you NEEEEEED it, or go with the agile weapon enhancement. or go with mythic weapon finesse etc. there are alot of options if you have to be the powerhouse. i see this being my first character to stand in melee and hold the line better than anyone else ever could. Looking into the trip feats to ensure that they can't move past...
If you can take a feat more than once, it will specifically say so in the feat's description. You sounds like one of those cheesers who tries and takes Spell Perfection twice....
After reading a lot of post in this thread I have to say that Be forced to a single combat style is bad.
I think i have to say it again
Be forced to a single combat style is bad.
Why a finneseable weapon in one hand and the other hand free is the only style considered? TWF, rapier + light shield, trhowing weapons, all of those shoudl be at least doable with the class.
This is Pathfinder, Nicos."Throwing Weapons" and "doable" do not belong in the same sentence. :P
That said, I have nothing against a TWF Swashbuckler or one that focuses on Str, but the class is supposed to be mainly about Dex-based melee combat, so I really don't understand this hesitation to give them things that make Dex-based melee combat possible.
The difference here is Precise Strike doesn't work when two-handing. Str fighter that can't two-hand would not win versus Dervish Dance or agile fighter.Again, I am going to keep saying this until it sticks.
Fighters... ALL melee fighters, every single one of them, get the same benefits from a High Dex as a swashbuckler. With armor training, a 22 dex fighter can get his full Dex bonus to AC with Mithral Full-Plate at level 11.
So, a fighter is looking at all the same factors: Reflex save, AC, dex-based skills, touch AC etc.
Been going on for years. Strength still wins.
Actually, as it is currently written, you CAN two-hand your weapon with precise strike. You just have to two-hand a one-handed piercing weapon. This doesn't work for a Rapier, but it does work for a Heavy Pick.
That is pretty easily cleared up, but if the Swashbuckler got Deft Strikes to use dexterity instead of strength, then it would have the caveat that it wasn't multiplied when using two hands.
In any case, as it has been regularly pointed out. Precise Strike is only making up for the one-handed, no TWF combat style. It is not adding anything above or beyond that. It does seem to outpace that a little bit at the very high end, but it also falls very short of it at the low end... so it all evens out.
Take a str fighter using a 2-hander vs. a str swashbuckler with a rapier (we can ignore weapon training and feats.. just looking at damage die, strength and power attack differences). Each will start with an 18 strength, get to 22 at level 8, and 24 at level 14 (can be done faster depending, but this is an easy comparison):
lvl 1:
Fighter: From offhand +2 from strength, +1 from power attack, +3.5 from weapon die
Swashbuckler: Gains nothing, no precise strike yet
Result: Fighter wins by +6.5
lvl 3:
Fighter: still getting +6.5
Swashbuckler: gains precise strike +3
Result: Fighter wins by +3.5
Lvl 8 (both now have 22 str):
Fighter: From offhand +3 from strength, +3 from power attack, +3.5 from weapon die
Swashbuckler: +8 from precise strike
Result: Fighter wins by +1.5
lvl 10:
Swashbuckler is now ahead by 0.5
Lvl 12:
Swashbuckler is ahead by 1.5
Swashbuckler stays ahead for the foreseeable future, but they are very close. EG at 16 both have 26 strength, fighter is getting 12.5 from his offhand, swashbuckler is getting 16 from precise strike, swash wins by 3.5 damage.
The comparison is less kind when considering a TWF fighter, and in that case a fighter just wins across the board, but either way. Precise strike is only making up that ground lost by losing a fighting hand.
Subbing it for dex to damage would still make this a very gimpy class unless the swashbuckler could, in fact, use two weapons. If that is the case, then I would totally agree with such a change.
I like the idea of cha based "grit".
I think that this class should be dex based fighter since the whole point of even getting this class is to have an effective dex based combatant. This is a niche that has been needed for a very, very, long time.
I think it should be prof. with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, buckler, whip, and maybe fire arms.
I also think it should have 6+int for skill points otherwise it looks like it has all the class skills it needs.
I agree that for dex-based there shoudl be weapon finesse at level 1 and some kind of dervish dance (for every fineeseable weapon) at level 3 or someting.
but that should not be the only option.
I agree. I just want to see the "Dex-based melee warrior with good mobility" part work before we get to think about other options. It's not like you need a lot of effort to make a Str-based front-liner, after all.
Ideas for Swashbuckler:
Weapon Proficiency: All light and martial weapons, as well as whips and firearms.
Armor Proficiency: Light armor and bucklers.
6 skill points per level
2 good saves: Reflex and whatever else the designers want. Fort seems like the obvious choice. Creating a "Force of Personality" feat or class feature (Cha instead of Wis to will saves) would open so many different character concepts for so many classes that I honestly don't understand why this doesn't exist yet.
Add Cha to rolls made to confirm criticals
Panache: Cha + 1/2 level would work wonders. But we seriously need better deeds. There are some great suggestions in this thread.
Mobility: Cha to Acrobatics, Escape Artist and Sleight of hand skill checks. Also to AC/CMD against AoO provoked for moving though a threatened square.
Parry and Riposte could simply work like Snake Style (but based on Bluff) instead of costing Panache points. Especially considering the limitations those deeds have.
Instead Swashbucklers should be able to spend Panache to:
- Add Cha to attack rolls.
- Move without provoking.
- Ignore Difficult Terrain for 1 round
- Reroll a failed save
- Reroll a failed Dex or Cha-based skill check
- Get an extra attack
- Stand up from prone as a free action and without provoking AoO.
- Draw an weapon (or pick it up from the floor) as a free action without provoking AoO.
- Use an immediate action force a concentration check on a spell casters no more than 60ft away from the Swashbuckler.
- Move as a swift action (perhaps at later levels, say, 10th and beyond)
Panache is a very limited resource, it should be much more useful than it currently is.
Unfortunately, because Swashbucklers have Weapon training and access to Weapon Specialization, they are unlikely to be given more flavorful abilities.
Lemmy,
I think adding Cha to confirm critical hits on top of Swashbuckler Weapon Training would break the Panache mechanic wide open. I believe this class is awful at achieving its theme, but I agree with the designers that Panache should be a somewhat limited resource. In my limited playtesting so far it is more available than you might think.
I would like to see the minimum 1 panache rule replaced by a 1+CHA bonus. I only suggest this because, unlike the Gunslinger, those "if you have one panache" deeds are far too valuable to ever give up, and, again unlike the gunslinger, there are more opportunities (assuming Combat Reflexes) to spend it. I say replaced, because a class designed to make dexterous, charming, and witty fighters should not have so little penalty for tanking the Charisma stat.
I do like some of your Deed suggestions. I could see a couple of those competing with doubling Precise Strike in certain situations.
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Again, I am going to keep saying this until it sticks.
Fighters... ALL melee fighters, every single one of them, get the same benefits from a High Dex as a swashbuckler. With armor training, a 22 dex fighter can get his full Dex bonus to AC with Mithral Full-Plate at level 11.
So, a fighter is looking at all the same factors: Reflex save, AC, dex-based skills, touch AC etc.
Been going on for years. Strength still wins.
The Swashbuckler adds Parry and Riposte to that last... okay, sure. But with a 14 dex (12 plus a belt off Physical Perfection by level 10) they still get 3 AoOs per round. You probably don't have so much Panache that you can parry and riposte that often anyway.
So, either you are saying that all strength based melee fighters have been doing it wrong, and should clearly have been focusing on dexterity for all this time, or the current status quo of melee = strength is still the case for swashbucklers.
If fact, since they do not get access to TWF (the primary reason that fighters who aren't ranged might end up with a high dex) they pretty conclusively get LESS benefit than a fighter would.
So the age-old problem of the Dex fighter is still here, and is not being cured by calling out all of the same bonuses that Dex applies to.
I'm saying yet again that I DO want Dex- and Cha- based swashbucklers. But ideally, each choice of weapons or combat style should come with its own penalties. For example :
- Dervish Dance would grant Dex to damage as it already does. But you couldn't wield a shield, Power Attack unless you also put points in Str or 2H PA unless you also sacrifice Dex to damage.
=> High constant damage, average spike damage, low AC, 1 less feat to work so reduced versatility, high panache regeneration.
- Rapiers would be the simplest, most effective weapon to use all day long right at 1st level, allowing to wield a buckler or off-hand weapon. => Average permanent damage unless you invest in Specialization early, average spike damage, high AC, high panache regeneration.
- High-crit modifiers weapons could benefit from a deed granting them a potential critical hit on their next one-handed attack roll. This mechanic has precedence in the game and would reward high risk/high reward combat styles ; plus the spike damage wouldn't hurt that much as long as you don't add +5 to damage right from a Dex modifier.
=> Average permanent damage unless you invest in Specialization early, very high spike damage, high AC, low panache regeneration.
- Other one-handed weapons like the Longsword or the aldori dueling sword would allow to 2H wield them, thus making Power Attack a potent damage boost when out of panache despite their lower crit range.
=> High permanent damage, average spike damage, varying low/high AC, slight MADness, average panache regeneration.
- Light weapons would be usable in more situations and as off-hand.
=> Cannot be judged at all before a revision but ideally would grant above-average permanent damage, average spike damage, low AC, high feat cost, very high panache regeneration.
EACH of these builds would be based off Dex and Cha. The only ones with an interest in putting 13 Str would be the one-and-a-half-hander with longsword/dueling sword and the TWFing one to stack damage outputs. If you make Str or Dex modifier not stack with Precise Strike for example, you basically make 10 Str not an issue, and 13 Str would become a point-buy tax leading to Power Attack, so you have the CHOICE to pick that or not at the expense of lower skill points, hit points or Will saves induced by putting 3 more points in an ability score that will have no use except for your carrying capacity and some other skills.
If you add Dex to damage as a boost for everyone, you'll 1: have to cut something else to balance things out, and obviously the option which will receive the nerfbat will also be one of the most thematic and tactic since it allows you to deal more damage when you need it; and 2: you'll make high crit-range even better but will pigeon-hole the class into not granting benefits to other weapons out of fear they multiply too much bonuses.
You currently complain that swashbucklers are too similar to Dex-based fighters. Cool then, all the more reasons to focus on deeds granting awesome, unique tricks as the Swashbuckler's real deal and schtick, instead of begging for swashbucklers to basically be fighters based on Dex. You complain about fighters being the same yet basically want exactly that : a Dex fighter.
Right now the swashbuckler's deeds still need some work (panache cost too high for Parry/Riposte ; a mobility option akin to the mobile fighter ; maybe a critical hit button with a high panache cost, etc). Likewise, if the swashbuckler wants to remain relevant at his job without being inredibly feat starved and MAD, it needs a way to ignore some prerequisites of thematic dueling feats - namely the 13 Int, Combat Expertise and Dodge prerequisites. For the latter I'd like a way to treat Nimble as Dodge for the prerequisites of feats. I already have a +1 dodge bonus to AC, I don't want to take a feat tax when I already fill both the fluff and crunch of the following feat branch.
Also, no, you don't get to 2H piercing weapons with precise strike. The wording is clear in both execution and intent :
a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield.
"With a one-handed piercing melee weapon" means you only do that on a one-handed weapon, not a weapon wielded in two hands which would become two-handed. Likewise, wielding a 2H weapon in one hand makes it count as a one-handed weapon.
"A swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" : if you are two-handed, you are wielding a weapon in your other hand, even if its the same as your off-hand's. Even by stretching the RAW it's obvious you're not supposed to 2H this weapon and I'm sure we can expect a clearer wording in the final document.
Lemmy,
I think adding Cha to confirm critical hits on top of Swashbuckler Weapon Training would break the Panache mechanic wide open. I believe this class is awful at achieving its theme, but I agree with the designers that Panache should be a somewhat limited resource.
Weapon Training should be replaced with "You add Dex to damage when suing weapons of the selected weapon group". It'd be a nice middle ground between Weapon Training and Gun Training and remove any risk of Swashbucklers outdamaging Fighters
In my limited playtesting so far it is more available than you might think.
Then we have different playtest experiences. In teh game I GMed, the player adamantly refused to use more than 1 Panache point because losing Precise Strike was too crippling, and he couldn't afford Cha higher than 14 without making his already terrible saves suck even more.
I would like to see the minimum 1 panache rule replaced by a 1+CHA bonus. I only suggest this because, unlike the Gunslinger, those "if you have one panache" deeds are far too valuable to ever give up, and, again unlike the gunslinger, there are more opportunities (assuming Combat Reflexes) to spend it. I say replaced, because a class designed to make dexterous, charming, and witty fighters should not have so little penalty for tanking the Charisma stat.
I'd rather see characters being rewarded for good Cha scores than being punished for having a low one.
I do like some of your Deed suggestions. I could see a couple of those competing with doubling Precise Strike in certain situations.
I'd rather remove precise strike and replace it with the Dex-to-Damage version of Weapon Training. It'd be simpler, easier and far more elegant than creating all sorts of convoluted mechanics to try and compensate for it.
Its really weird... They don't want Dex to damage, but give Precise Strike to compensate. But it's just not good enough, so they give the ability to double its bonus. But then, it's too good, so make it precision damage. But then, that's not good enough again, so add Weapon Training... And it goes on and on...Why? Why make it so needlessly complicated? They could simply write "You get to add your Dex bonus instead of your Str bonus on damage rolls made with weapons affected by Weapon Finesse. This bonus is not increased for using an weapon two-handed, but is still reduced for off-hand attacks".
There. Simple, easy, balanced and very fitting. One reading of that sentence and the player knows what it does.
Similarly, why create a whole different class feature that does basically the same as Weapon Finesse (with a lot of specific exceptions) instead of simply giving the class the Weapon Finesse feat?
Swashbucklers should be about cunning and mobility, not damage. That's why I keep saying the class is being held back by its Fighter half.
To Maxx,
The only complaint about Swashbucklers being too similar to Dex-based fighters is because the fighter is the better combatant. Lord_Malkov and I both feel that the Swashbuckler should be the better Dex-based fighter. Deeds are great, but at the end of the day the one that got everybody's attention was Precise Strike--because that one helps the alternate FIGHTER do their job and contribute to the adventuring party.
This is not a rogue alternate. This class is going to be expected to keep the wizard from getting eaten by the troll and to hold off that small horde of goblins at the door while the rogue figures out how to unlock the next one. This is a martial class, and it needs to be able to hang in there with the martials. The Fighter is the obvious comparison since this is, again and still, an alternate fighter.
So all we are asking for is a way to make the Swashbuckler the best at fulfilling the Dexterity-based fighter role. Like it or not, the success of a fighter is primarily graded on the ability to kill enemies without being killed. Now, I love adding style, and I agree that the extra stuff should also encourage Dex/Cha builds, but ultimately this alternate Fighter class has to be able to fill the fighter role.
Your other suggestions for "remaining relevant at his job" are also valid, and they would help the major stat dependencies, but your phrasing implies there is a relevance there to begin with. As it stands, I can make a Dex-based fighter or Str-based swashbuckler who is better at the job of killing enemies while not being killed than I can a Dex-based swash.
THAT is the complaint.
To Lemmy,
I see where your going with your suggestions. I think both Dex to damage and Precise Strike together aren't too much considering the other limitations (one-handed weapon, no off-hand), but I also see your point about it being very complicated. Possibly if you could still spend panache to get your level added to damage (as precision), but instead of flat level to damage against many targets, just get Dex to damage instead? That doesn't make up for the fighting style limitations, but it feels like a swashbuckler might actually spend that last panache point once in awhile.
All of that aside, I am still looking at the class as a gunslinger/fighter and you are aiming for gunslinger/monk, so there will be some differences.
I must concede my playtesting has been limited to this point, so I may be wrong on the Panache pool over extended testing. Not to mention I've been using Grumpy MacGrumperson a lot with his 5 CHA who never spends Panache. Once I get a respectable amount of playtesting in I will be posting in the other Topic.
Well I may be in the minority here, I think the class is pretty good myself, it needs a little work but not too much to make it really good though. it is very niche though I think and needs to be played in the correct style of game. I don't think a dungeon crawl is going to give the class much justice.
I'm not sure if anyone here has played or has seen the Rogue/swashbuckler archetype in action its pretty limiting to be honest and the player I have playing it in my game is getting a bit bored of it. Im GMing Skull and Shackles and this class is perfect for the game.
Saves are the same for both classes at level 7, swashie class has a much better BAB, bravery is the same as daring, the swashie has more weapon choices and can use a buckler, panache and deeds make the class interesting and versitile in combat, swashie has more HP, skills are pretty similar too.
There are a few niggles, as others have pointed out, weapon finese needs to be at level 1 and it needs to have dex as damage due mainly to the fact the class needs to use Rapiers to make the most of the class. The damage is not high at 1d6 so adding dex instead of strength is not going to break the game in any way. I have a Druid using a scythe in the game and the damage with his strength is far greater. Really not a game breaker at all.
The ability to regain Panache needs to have some way of regaining them using char based skills, swashies need this as they should be using social skills to the max too.
Combat reflexes as a feat is a must as the class can't make use of oppurtune parry and riposte without them.
I guess I may be seeing this from a different angle as the player built his PC months ago for my game using the archetype. He focused on Char (14) and Dex (18) with the other stats at 12 (Half Elf level 7, 20 point buy) he is focused on Rapiers. The way he plays him and the build he has is very much like this new class anyway. This would have been a better build I think.
Peronsaly I think maybe the class should have been a rogue/gunslinger hybrid not Fighter/Gunslinger.
Just realized if we're allowed to take Gunslinger feats, I can tank CHA back down, put those points in STR and CON and grab Extra Grit once or Twice.
-8 Cha + Extra Grit = 3 Grit
Vs
14 Cha = 2 Grit
Well I may be in the minority here, I think the class is pretty good myself, it needs a little work but not too much to make it really good though. it is very niche though I think and needs to be played in the correct style of game. I don't think a dungeon crawl is going to give the class much justice.
I'm not sure if anyone here has played or has seen the Rogue/swashbuckler archetype in action its pretty limiting to be honest and the player I have playing it in my game is getting a bit bored of it. Im GMing Skull and Shackles and this class is perfect for the game.
Saves are the same for both classes at level 7, swashie class has a much better BAB, bravery is the same as daring, the swashie has more weapon choices and can use a buckler, panache and deeds make the class interesting and versitile in combat, swashie has more HP, skills are pretty similar too.
There are a few niggles, as others have pointed out, weapon finese needs to be at level 1 and it needs to have dex as damage due mainly to the fact the class needs to use Rapiers to make the most of the class. The damage is not high at 1d6 so adding dex instead of strength is not going to break the game in any way. I have a Druid using a scythe in the game and the damage with his strength is far greater. Really not a game breaker at all.
The ability to regain Panache needs to have some way of regaining them using char based skills, swashies need this as they should be using social skills to the max too.
Combat reflexes as a feat is a must as the class can't make use of oppurtune parry and riposte without them.
I guess I may be seeing this from a different angle as the player built his PC months ago for my game using the archetype. He focused on Char (14) and Dex (18) with the other stats at 12 (Half Elf level 7, 20 point buy) he is focused on Rapiers. The way he plays him and the build he has is very much like this new class anyway. This would have been a better build I think.
Peronsaly I think maybe the class should have been a...
Having played and run games with rogues build to be swashbuckling fencers, I have to hope and pray that a fighter alternate would be more effective at fighting. I don't want to sound like I'm demeaning your post, but I also don't feel a rogue to be the measuring stick of a fighter class.
Maybe you should see if this player wants to reroll his class to Swashbuckler and you can get some valuable playtest action for the developers. Although if nobody else can disable a trap that might be a tough sell. I do like that bit about gaining panache for social skills, but I don't know how one would mechanically balance that. I think if I were running the game I would incorporate awesome witty remarks and smooth pickup lines into the Daring Act rule.
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Just realized if we're allowed to take Gunslinger feats, I can tank CHA back down, put those points in STR and CON and grab Extra Grit once or Twice.
-8 Cha + Extra Grit = 3 Grit
Vs
14 Cha = 2 Grit
And if that doesn't help explain what is wrong with this class, I don't know what will. Sadly, you would be better served to tank CHA for that extra STR and CON. Until this class encourages making great Dex/Cha fighters (within the rules, not just in the description) it isn't doing it right.
To Lemmy,
I see where your going with your suggestions. I think both Dex to damage and Precise Strike together aren't too much considering the other limitations (one-handed weapon, no off-hand), but I also see your point about it being very complicated. Possibly if you could still spend panache to get your level added to damage (as precision), but instead of flat level to damage against many targets, just get Dex to damage instead? That doesn't make up for the fighting style limitations, but it feels like a swashbuckler might actually spend that last panache point once in awhile.
All of that aside, I am still looking at the class as a gunslinger/fighter and you are aiming for gunslinger/monk, so there will be some differences.
I must concede my playtesting has been limited to this point, so I may be wrong on the Panache pool over extended testing. Not to mention I've been using Grumpy MacGrumperson a lot with his 5 CHA who never spends Panache. Once I get a respectable amount of playtesting in I will be posting in the other Topic.
The problem is that the class is advertised as a agile and cunning combatant, but much like Fighters, Swashbucklers are not particularly agile or cunning.
I also don't think a "Spend Panache to add X extra damage" is necessary or even desirable. It doesn't compensate for losing Precise Strike, it doesn't make the class feel or play any more cunning or agile. It simply makes it hit harder, but if that's the whole purpose of the class, why even make a Swashbuckler instead of a Fighter?
Read the class description for Swashbucklers and see for your self how badly they fail at living up to it:
Whereas many warriors brave battle encased in a suit of armor and wielding large and powerful weapons, swashbucklers rely on speed, agility, and panache.
Except they don't. Swashbucklers are no more agile than any other character with Weapon Finesse.
Swashbucklers dart in and out of the fray, wearing down their opponents with annoying lunges and feints, and foiling the powerful attacks with a f lick of the wrist and a flash of the blade before delivering a fatal riposte that is carnage made an art form.
Again, that's not the case. Swashbuckler will stand still and full attack all the time! They have zero mobility-related class features (Derring-do is not even worth mentioning) and no easier access to iconic combat maneuver (such as Feint and Disarm) than any other class.
Riposte is barely useful because it costs 2 Panache points to use it. That's never a good deal. Especially when Parry has the possibility of being completely wasted. Even when Riposte works, it comes at high cost, so describing it as "carnage made art" is a cruel joke.
Role:Using fancy footwork alongside quick and precise lunges, the swashbuckler darts in and out of battle, harassing and thwarting her opponents.
Their attacks are not any more precise than anyone else, except for the fact that they use "precision damage", which actually makes them less effective than someone who is not as precise. Darting in and out of battle is not just sub optimal. It's a horrible tactic. Swashbucklers trying to do this will fail as martial classes: They will deal negligible damage and fail to protect their allies. (Not what one would expect from a Fighter/Gunslinger hybrid).
And of course, even if "darting in and out of combat" was not horribly useless, Swashbucklers are not better at it than any other class.
So, as it currently is, Swashbucklers are a terrible class because they fail to live up to their role and are not very good at anything else either. Their horrible saves also means they are unlikely to survive much longer than 9th level unless the GM keeps pulling his punches.
Yep that was kind of what I meant sorry, this class is better built than the archetype. I think maybe more Gunslinger than Rogue then maybe. Its hard to tell as some of the Rogue bits are useful too and Swashies are kind of loveable rogues really with a combat slant.
as for the rest of you're post...already on it. I'm helping him re-build it a little. Important things have already happened and some of the rogue things he needs to keep though so it looks like 4 levels rogue, and the rest in Swashie, and yes im doing the witty remark panache thing too. Some of his feats will need re-training too. However I don't think I can playtest it as Im going to be giving him the weapon finese feat with dex damage as I feel he should really have it. The rest stays as is though other than the fact he gets firearms as well so he can use a pistol (Razorcoast firearm rule, if prod in martial weapons you are prof in firearms, they play a bigger role in my game).
The problem with this plan is that the class has Deeds you'd actually want to use on a regular basis. Many commentators are planning on going with moderate to high amounts of Charisma AND picking up an "Extra Panache" feat. If you dump Charisma you're deciding on not using your deeds until the middle levels, when most builds will be able to afford picking up Extra Panache multiple times.Just realized if we're allowed to take Gunslinger feats, I can tank CHA back down, put those points in STR and CON and grab Extra Grit once or Twice.
-8 Cha + Extra Grit = 3 Grit
Vs
14 Cha = 2 Grit
Except that isn't true. You are guaranteed a minium of 1 Panache, which will let you keep the important Precise Strike damage bonus until you can take 'Extra Panache'. One could dump Charisma down to 5, a -3 penalty, and still maintain 1 Panache, and take 'Extra Panache' for a total of 3 Panache.
On the other hand, if you want 3 Panache from the start, you need a 16 Charisma either 5 Points + Racial bonus, or 10 points. Those are points that could be, mechanically, better suited to other scores.
For example, an Elf Swashbuckler could have STR 13, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 7 on a 15 point buy. If he takes Extra Panache, he has 3 Panache to play with.
If he doesn't tank Charisma, and wants that 3 Panache he needs a 16 Charisma, which as an Elf, requires 10 points of his 15 point buy. Meaning something else has to be tanked.
What will it be? His Dex? Needed for attack rolls, some class features and AC.
How about Strength? Needed for Power Attack and damage.
Con? Needed for HP and crappy Fortitude Saves.
Int? Needed for skills and Feats.
Wis? Needed for his crappy Will saves.
Mechanically speaking, Cha, much like the Monk, is the Swashbucklers only dump stat.