| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My suggestions still remain:
- Rather than giving away free feats like Finesse (which has a DEX requirement right?) or Expertise (which has an INT requirement) just give them a bonus feat at lvl 1 so the player can pick.
- Change Swashbuckler Finesse so it incorporates any and all one handed weapons specifically for swashbucklers, if they choose to use Weapon Finesse.
- Don't force them to waste AOOs on Parry, let them waste Panache instead, so they don't have to take Combat Expertise just to use their class abilities.
- If DEX/STR swap isn't gonna happen, then perhaps an errata on Dervish Dance could be in place, I'm fine with DEX to damage being a two feat tax considering its game changing power, perhaps allowing DD to include all Finessable weapons and the Scimitar, plus reducing the required ranks in Perform to 1, allowing lvl 1 characters in classes who grant bonus feats at 1st level to have it at 1st level, and have options with it. This would be the perfect opportunity to incorporate it into a "core" book.
- Nix Bravery and have an ability called Dashing that adds CHA to saves, and make damn sure it says that it won't stack with Divine Grace.
Think of it as an Elven Curve Blade, only not curved and not necessarily Elven. Bastard swords are as light, elegant, and balanced as any Dex-based fighter could want, and by definition can be wielded just fine in one or both hands.I think having weapon finesse is enough, but it should include all of the weapons under that feat (elven curved blade, whip, etc.)
I don't get the Bastard sword interest. Even from a Historic martial arts background, fighting with a bastard sword or two handed sword is pretty different from rapier (there is obvious overlap depending on what master's work your reading, but the weapons are still pretty different) and I would equate it with a fighter or any other martial class.
The swashbuckler is solely meant to fight with light one-handed weapons and similar one handed martial weapons. That's why we get the precise strike bonus and other cool combat deeds, to make up for the low damage output of bigger weapons and higher strength damage.
Although I understand your opinion, I still disagree. I see the bastard sword as a weapon being closer to a Greatsword, rather than a sleek and elegant rapier. Plus a bastard sword would be more exploitable for damage output since it is a d10. And with the ability to switch between one and two handed, it could break the concept behind the swashbuckler in the hands of a power-gamer.
Book could include new weapons as well. I would love to see a sabre be a 1d8 finessable piercing/slashing exotic one hander. Although, the Dueling Sword kinda already exists.
Although I understand your opinion, I still disagree. I see the bastard sword as a weapon being closer to a Greatsword, rather than a sleek and elegant rapier. Plus a bastard sword would be more exploitable for damage output since it is a d10. And with the ability to switch between one and two handed, it could break the concept behind the swashbuckler in the hands of a power-gamer.
The average difference between a d6 and d10 is 2 damage, which is outweighed by its inferior crit range vs. a Rapier/Scimitar. Using it two-handed gets you a better Power Attack tradeoff, but that's not game-breaking in the slightest. As long as the Swashbuckler has worthwhile class features that key off Dexterity, and a decent source of damage, there won't be the temptation to make a Strength Swashbuckler with a two-handed Bastard Sword.
It's actually a good opportunity to give it some interesting class features to take better advantage of the fact that it can be used in one or both hands. Currently that's not actually all that useful.
And though this line of argument is pretty much entirely subjective, look up Albion's "Munich" sword, and tell me it isn't sleek and elegant.
Although I understand your opinion, I still disagree. I see the bastard sword as a weapon being closer to a Greatsword, rather than a sleek and elegant rapier. Plus a bastard sword would be more exploitable for damage output since it is a d10. And with the ability to switch between one and two handed, it could break the concept behind the swashbuckler in the hands of a power-gamer.The average difference between a d6 and d10 is 2 damage, which is outweighed by its inferior crit range vs. a Rapier/Scimitar. Using it two-handed gets you a better Power Attack tradeoff, but that's not game-breaking in the slightest. As long as the Swashbuckler has worthwhile class features that key off Dexterity, and a decent source of damage, there won't be the temptation to make a Strength Swashbuckler with a two-handed Bastard Sword.
It's actually a good opportunity to give it some interesting class features to take better advantage of the fact that it can be used in one or both hands. Currently that's not actually all that useful.
And though this line of argument is pretty much entirely subjective, look up Albion's "Munich" sword, and tell me it isn't sleek and elegant.
IF the developers decide to include something like a bastard sword as a weapon option, i think ti would make more sense to have it be in favor for an archetype build to better use it, like maybe getting rid of a swashbuckler deed or class skill to replace the exotic weapon proficiency. But as a basic swashbuckler, which is aesthetically Errol Flynn/Zorro/Dread Pirate Roberts/d'Artagnan, They don't wield bastard swords.
That IS a nice sword.Oakeshott Type XVIII swords are very beautiful. But it isn't a rapier, and I can't picture someone like Errol Flynn's Robin Hood swinging it around, when he could just thrust fast with a lighter blade and intimidate his opponent with a devil-may-care "a-HA!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That IS a nice sword.Oakeshott Type XVIII swords are very beautiful. But it isn't a rapier, and I can't picture someone like Errol Flynn's Robin Hood swinging it around, when he could just thrust fast with a lighter blade and intimidate his opponent with a devil-may-care "a-HA!"
There are street duelists in Italy circa 1500 who would be quick to inform you that their Sideswords were not rapiers.
More importantly Robin Hood would have no business wielding a weapon pretty far ahead of his time. Hollywood be damned.
Why add an exotic weapon proficiency? Why not just let them use it two handed as a martial weapon, like they already can?
The exotic weapon proficiency is necessary to wield a Bastard Sword one-handed. Story-wise it's meant to be that you are better trained with this weapon than most, so switching between one and two hands isn't a problem. Mechanically, its meant to balance out this ability by using a feat. They are great for Maguses, or someone who doesn't want to walk around with a greatsword on their back
That IS a nice sword.Oakeshott Type XVIII swords are very beautiful. But it isn't a rapier, and I can't picture someone like Errol Flynn's Robin Hood swinging it around, when he could just thrust fast with a lighter blade and intimidate his opponent with a devil-may-care "a-HA!"There are street duelists in Italy circa 1500 who would be quick to inform you that their Sideswords were not rapiers.
More importantly Robin Hood would have no business wielding a weapon pretty far ahead of his time. Hollywood be damned.
You're right! That's because the side sword is considered a transitional sword between a longsword and what we call a rapier, the 'missing link" that evolved parallel with the fashion of the time as cultures were transitioning from the late middle ages to the renaissance. Plus those Italians wouldn't even call it a Rapier, since that is a German word (I think?) and what we consider a "Rapier" didn't really become a common weapon until a bit after 1500
|
When we read the description of the Swashbuckler, our resident powergamer was cackling maniacally like a demented schoolgirl.
I agreed that it seemed very good (and broken in some ways). And that was when I thought that you had to select deeds much like Rogue talents, before I realized that you got all deeds as soon as you had the level. As such it seems rather overpowered to me.
Most notably, the targeted strike deed. At higher levels, a full BAB will very rarely miss. So it becomes an automatic disarm (no CMB/CMD, no AoO), an automatic trip or, even worse, an automatic Confusion (no save). And the latter in addition to dealing damage including Precise Strike.
How is this not overpowered ?
We feel currently that the swashbuckler is to the casters what the casters are to the martials. Why cast spells with SR and saves when you can just hit them on the head ?
Personally, my goal for suggesting the bastard sword was twofold - panache style class features with a two handed weapon, and a reason to use the bastard sword two handed other than losing your shield. I really can't see it being used one handed with anything approaching finesse, while two handed, it makes far more sense. It certainly makes more sense than some of the weapons that can currently be used (the heavy pick, for instance).
I could get down with that. like I said before, I'd like to see an archetype to cater towards this play-style and flavor.
It's a little like worrying about the viability of high str, cha-dumping builds. If you aren't trying to make a dodgy fencer, why aren't you just making a fighter?well, at this point that's being done to theorycraft how good they are. If the BruteBuckler is better than the high cha high dex swashbuckler, then I think its safe to say something has gone wrong.
Yeah, that I get. Cha definitely needs to mean more here, and I'm tempted to suggest they get a power at some point which forces them to add dex to damage instead of strength, just to nip weird abusive strength builds in the bud.
Speaking of nipping things in the bud, there's no way you could have a balanced swashbuckler with a bastard sword. You will not get the ability to combine precise strikes with two-handed strength bonuses, that feature exists as a replacement for the lost damage. So... we end up with this overly specific, wordy restriction against that, so you can hold an overly heavy sword in one hand. Maybe as some sort of archetype, but otherwise, I don't see it happening.
More testing results:
Apparently, as of this half-announced tweak, Debbie is allowed to keep her buckler, and damage undead. That's good to hear, because this playtest is about to bump into a giant pile of undead and will saves.
Level 4 is a pretty great benchmark for a regular fighter. Their power attack bonus increases, so that damage gap we just started closing got torn back open. We'll catch back up a bit over the next few, but this is a 3 steps forward 2 steps back sort of thing. All Debbie gets this level is a feat, which she is REALLY starting to wish could be power attack, but being 4 strength short, that's not happening any time soon, so heck with it. +1 Dex, and... Weird dealing with money at this level. Realistically I think I'd just be starting to save for stat boosters around this level. Dex and Cha to begin with, eventually in the very long run, the belt's going to be a str/dex combo, at an outrageous price for no benefit whatsoever besides being strong enough to wear that belt, and qualifying for one single honestly pretty vital feat she should have had all along ideally. Anyway, +9 to hit for 1d6+4, with 20 AC. Still no reason not to use combat expertise so that's effectively 22 but the straight fighter is doing twice that now, and all we have in consolation is that free intimidate.
Fortunately, the AP I'm testing with has kind of a dead level at 4 too, so... with the undead tweak, it's smooth sailing here. There's more saves to fail left and right, because again, the closest this class has to dump stats are con and wis, which line up with bad fort and will saves. Dex damage for this particular build is fairly manageable. Attack bonus and AC drop, but those are the two things we have plenty of. Dawn is more bothered by it, because she's losing damage from her baseline 1d6+8 (again, still behind the fighter). Level 5 is also nothing to write home about test wise. Level ups in Runelords happen in some weird places.
Grabbed the Precise Strike feat, confusing as that is, because hey, with how long it takes her to bring anything down, hopefully she's got a rogue friend to finish things off, and there isn't a whole lot else to do with this slot, besides grabbing dodge or unarmed strike to start a new feat chain up. Other than that, all she gets this level is Swashbuckler Weapon Training, which should be a huge huge deal, because she's getting Improved Critical for free, 4 levels than anyone else, while already using a crit-happy weapon. Look what it's actually doing for me her though and it's a lot less exciting. 30% of the time she hits for a whopping 2d6+6 damage before accounting for equipment bonuses. 18 Falchion fighter's regular damage is 2d4+13, the crits are doing 4d4+26, only half as rarely as these. The gap's potentially even wider if the fighter managed a 20 str at level 1 when he first accesses a belt since the +.5 at 22 adds on another point, and he might have weapon focus with one of those extra feats, but I'm trying to keep stuff like that off the table. Now, there is DEFINITELY a case to be made that every time I get one of these super common crits, I get a panache recharge, so I should really add the bonus from activating precise strike into that crit estimate. That makes it 2d6+11 on a crit... STILL below what any str based melee character (even another swashbuckler come to think of it) is getting with a regular hit.
Dawn, as always, fairs much better. 1d6+10 on a regular hit, 2d6+19 on a crit assuming we went for the panache boost. Still underperforming if you really crunch the numbers but it's not such a huge gap that I'm really that upset looking at it.
Now, in some hypothetical world where Dawn was allowed to take Power Attack without the strength requirement (or maybe even got it as a bonus feat, like she's getting improved crit) we'd be looking at 1d6+14 (2d6+23 crit) vs. 2d4+13 (4d4+26 crit). That actually balances out just about perfectly right there... and it's pretty consistent across all levels too.
Level 6 is pretty dead, especially if that suggestion to replace bravery with a one time cha bonus to all saves. Not the worst place to toss it as a bonus feat?
|
Swashbuckler: A This is what the Slayer should look like. +5/+5 to all attacks and full BAB, but without the action ineconomy and paperwork to track your targets.
Panache is a great mechanic, and allows swishies a ton of interesting options in combat. Save them for parries? Spend them on ripostes? Extra damage? I really like it.
Deeds don't provide a "monetary" bonus, and some of the panache abilities are unclear (swift feint, pommel strike) how they work. Can they substitute for an attack? They're terrible otherwise.
Targeted Strike: Head is too powerful, really. Torso needs to say if it does damage normally.
Because swashbucklers get it for free at 5th level. Reread the weapon training feature.
Deeds can go to second level if you're worried about people dipping into the class. Ninjas need to wait to second level to be a real ninja, swashbucklers can wait for that more than they can wait to be able to hit things.
How in the world is Debs rapier 15+ crit already?
Bolded for emphasis:
"Swashbuckler Weapon Training (Ex): At 5th level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one-handed or light piercing melee weapons. While wielding such a weapon, she gains the benefit of the Improved Critical feat. These attack and damage bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels beyond 5th level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level)."On paper, that sounds amazingly, game breakingly good. A minimum level 9 feat for free at level 5, wow! In practice though... well, see my last post for how the math actually breaks down on it.
An interesting note though- The only ability swashbucklers get which enforce an open-hand fighting style is precise strike, which is, again, the partial consolation for fighting with one hand tied behind their back. A two-weapon swashbuckler crits like nobody's business 4 levels before everyone else, with the same sort of output as any other two weapon fighter without sneak attacks.
I'm OK with that in principle, "without sneak attacks" is a pretty big caveat to that one. You still have to wait as long as everyone else to start taking all the other crit feats, and the more frequent crits in and of themselves don't suddenly make this more appealing than the tried and true two-handed weapon method of hitting real good. As a swashbuckler, you also get your panache recharged more often, but you lose the only deed that you're consistently going to want to spend them on at that level, so it's a bit of a wash.
Deeds can go to second level if you're worried about people dipping into the class. Ninjas need to wait to second level to be a real ninja, swashbucklers can wait for that more than they can wait to be able to hit things.
The good deeds require a 3 level dip. The only ones you get access to at level 1 (or 2 for the matter) are the novelty exploding skill bonus, and a couple defensive options which in practice don't help out enough that I could see anyone wanting to dip for them. Parry/Riposte is broken right now, combining them into a single ability and it's still a crapshoot (unless the class you're dipping from has terrible AC but a super high BAB I guess), and the circumstances where riposte is really useful really don't come up unless, like a level 1 "properly built" swashbuckler, you routinely get into prolonged exchanges with things that have more attacks than you and aren't inclined to switch to less annoying targets.
Played with one tonight with a level 3 party (gunslinger rogue whose concept was swashbuckler was rerolled as one) and the class seemed alright at this level, at least to be in the party with one. The nimble let the SBuckler wear lighter armor than she had been so made the climb check she had to make easier, did okay in combat. Deeds seemed to keep the player interested, but weren't so slow that game play felt bogged down. I didn't feel like they were over or under powered to the point my PC would notice in character, no out of character complaints like if they'd just rolled up a core rogue.
You sound like you want the play test to address some much more basic issues than the classes. The current version of Pathfinder is all about making the scimitar conga line. One more class feature that does that won't hurt, and won't be the place to stop it.
Level 3 is kind of the sweet spot for the class right now. It's when you get the real core defining class features, and it's the level before regular full-BAB classes start to really shine. The farther you get from that point, the more you see the cracks.
Anyone have statblocks from characters they've been testing besides me and those strength builds a while back? I'm curious if I'm overlooking anything besides dervish and crane.
For those who keep bringing it up, Daring-do is wordplay. It's a mash-up of the "correct" derring-do, and the word daring, a trait that any Swashbuckler should certainly possess. It's not a misspelling, it's an intentional twist on the normal word.
Just.... no. Not at all.
It's either a misspelling, or a pony nod.
As mentioned many times before, the saves at higher levels are going to be a problem; I have seen the fix many have asked for was to give an ability, like Divine Grace of the Paladin, to allow Charisma to saves. I was also thinking that, given the flamboyant swashbuckling style, something like this may be more appropriate and balanced:
With Style: The flamboyant fighting style of the swashbuckler combines quick maneuvering, witty repartee and certainly an element of luck. The Swashbuckler gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws and as bonus Hit Points. This bonus cannot exceed the Swashbuckler's class level.
The last sentence will prevent level dipping just to get the full bonus of Charisma to Saves and HP. I would give this at 1st level.
Thoughts?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
You regain panache from both crits, and from killing blows. If you have 3x or 4x crits, things aren't going to survive when you land them, and you'll get 2 points back anyway. Your panache can't exceed your cha bonus (at least within this playtest), so you should be maxing out when you land them anyway. Especially if you're going with a 15 point buy.
Plus honestly, I don't really see how swashbucklers being best off using high crit weapons is a problem to begin with, when high crit ranges are already associated with flamboyant fighting styles by design. It's a little like worrying about the viability of high str, cha-dumping builds. If you aren't trying to make a dodgy fencer, why aren't you just making a fighter?
In part, to avoid the 'importing scimitars to our Scottish Magi' bit. For the magus, there's no reason to not use the scimitar* so they get pidgeonholed. I'd like to see a mechanic that rewards the pick, or falcata** using Swashbuckler, and carrying the crit over to panache is a good idea. (glad I'm not the only one who thought of it.)
*
**
You regain panache from both crits, and from killing blows. If you have 3x or 4x crits, things aren't going to survive when you land them, and you'll get 2 points back anyway. Your panache can't exceed your cha bonus (at least within this playtest), so you should be maxing out when you land them anyway. Especially if you're going with a 15 point buy.
Plus honestly, I don't really see how swashbucklers being best off using high crit weapons is a problem to begin with, when high crit ranges are already associated with flamboyant fighting styles by design. It's a little like worrying about the viability of high str, cha-dumping builds. If you aren't trying to make a dodgy fencer, why aren't you just making a fighter?
In part, to avoid the 'importing scimitars to our Scottish Magi' bit. For the magus, there's no reason to not use the scimitar* so they get pidgeonholed. I'd like to see a mechanic that rewards the pick, or falcata** using Swashbuckler, and carrying the crit over to panache is a good idea. (glad I'm not the only one who thought of it.)
*** spoiler omitted **
**** spoiler omitted **
Why don't they just made a "SABER" that is the same as a scimitar, but it has a special description of "block". I mean, any of those weapons you listed as pretty exotic for a Scottish magus to be wielding. They might add new items to this book for the classes to use.
For those who keep bringing it up, Daring-do is wordplay. It's a mash-up of the "correct" derring-do, and the word daring, a trait that any Swashbuckler should certainly possess. It's not a misspelling, it's an intentional twist on the normal word.Just.... no. Not at all.
It's either a misspelling, or a pony nod.
I'm pretty sure Jrutterbush hit the nail on the head
I don't know what the devs are getting out of this, but this is the best fencing weapons/cutlass/Weapon Finesse thread I can remember ever reading.
I'm pretty sure Jrutterbush hit the nail on the head
I'm pretty sure he didn't, since that would be the most pathetic attempt at 'wordplay' in the history of the English language, and Paizo are above that (also hopefully above pony nods and it's just a mistake).
|
Cutlass. Exactly the same stats as a scimitar.
I will say that I think this class should have a longer list of weapons, not a blanket grouping of weapons, maybe even create a Weapon Group (then fighters could use it, as well) that really suits the class. You are never going to have a list that pleases everyone, though. They really should have some slashing weapons on their list (as a saber fencer, I would appreciate it).
As much as I would hate to pigeonhole a class, I think giving the class something that allows for dex to damage at say 4th level would be a nice gift, it could even displace precise up a few levels, if it needed to.
Swashbuckler Finesse would be better served to be moved to 1st level and then move Parry/Riposte to second level.
I will say that I think this class should have a longer list of weapons, not a blanket grouping of weapons, maybe even create a Weapon Group (then fighters could use it, as well) that really suits the class. You are never going to have a list that pleases everyone, though. They really should have some slashing weapons on their list (as a saber fencer, I would appreciate it).
Sabreur hate is really widespread :(
I'd greatly appreciate opening some of this up to some slashy swords, for similar (and more) reasons.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm also having a lot of fun! I think this thread is very constructive, and I really like what people have brought to the table.
It seems that people want to see similar stuff fixed, such as-
- the low Fort save
- weapon Finesse at first level instead of second.
- increase skills per level.
- The Opportune Parry/Riposte costs. Some people have suggested some really good solutions, like Parry requiring a panache point in your pool, but Riposte require spending a point
- Daring-do is the only non-combat deed, and it isn't worth the cost
- Not enough weapon options for the class (archetypes my change this)
- Precise strike doesn't let you do two-weapon fighting, which is a classic swashbuckler thing from the movies. Again, an archetype might fix this. Or maybe a feat?
I'm the kind of gamer who doesn't really like using archetypes except for a few that stick out, but this class has a lot of potential for really fun ones;
- A musketeer, where you can use a musket and maybe a bomb or two?
- Sword and pistol pirate
- drunken swashbuckler
- a masked hero/Zorro guy
- Two Weapon Fighting, who can use a dagger/light weapon/whip in the off-hand
- a "scoundrel" that uses Dirty Tricks/Improvised weapons in the off-hand
- a "wandering warrior" type. I already feel like the flavor is already useable with the samurai alternative class, but I can totally understand the appeal for this concept using the Panache/deeds mechanics
I think it would be awesome parry with a candlestick or a metal tankard in a tavern fight.
- a "wandering warrior" type. I already feel like the flavor is already useable with the samurai alternative class, but I can totally understand the appeal for this concept using the Panache/deeds mechanics
This is my other big reasons for hoping swashbucklers get some slashing sword support (besides sabreur pride).
I've got a growing notion for a character switching between 1 and 2 handed stance with the katana (or works as well with the bastard sword), getting Precise damage one-handed, big power-attack chops two-handed, so having a reasonable option for either. My gut feeling is that it could be a more fun take on the wandering samurai than the samurai class itself, but I've not really taken a good look at the numbers.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For those who keep bringing it up, Daring-do is wordplay. It's a mash-up of the "correct" derring-do, and the word daring, a trait that any Swashbuckler should certainly possess. It's not a misspelling, it's an intentional twist on the normal word.
Derring-do already means daring, so it's wordplay only in the sense that spelling cheese "CHEEZ" is wordplay. Even if it's an intentional misspelling, it doesn't add any meaning.
- a "wandering warrior" type. I already feel like the flavor is already useable with the samurai alternative class, but I can totally understand the appeal for this concept using the Panache/deeds mechanicsThis is my other big reasons for hoping swashbucklers get some slashing sword support (besides sabreur pride).
I've got a growing notion for a character switching between 1 and 2 handed stance with the katana (or works as well with the bastard sword), getting Precise damage one-handed, big power-attack chops two-handed, so having a reasonable option for either. My gut feeling is that it could be a more fun take on the wandering samurai than the samurai class itself, but I've not really taken a good look at the numbers.
totally. I mean, the Samurai class can be used as an knight Errant too. But as far as making a Yojimbo style guy, really like the Ronin order for that class. Still, there isn't a "wandering warrior" archetype for the samurai alternative class, and an Archetype of the swashbuckler could really help that out.
If it had TWF and slashing weapon support, this class could THE Miyamoto Musashi class.
That would be reeeeeally fun!
|
|
a masked hero/Zorro guy
An archetype that added Disguise as a class skill and/or gave some sort of Disguise bonus as an alternate class feature would be really cool.
Not my favorite kind of Swashbuckler, but definitely an abslutely necessary literary figure to be emulated by this class.
Especially if there were supporting alternate Deeds. Possibly use Panache to aid in Disguise checks, or maybe the Archetype can regain Panache by succeeding at Disguise checks by a certain margin or under specific conditions?
Sword and pistol pirate
A Pirate archetype that splashed Cavalier abilities to emulate dashing leadership of a Pirate crew would be cool. I don't know how practical or desirable that is (considering that it would just be a rearrangement of existing class features), but a charming Pirate leader, maybe a "Dashing Captain" archetype (maybe it wouldn't even have to be Sea-locked, but just a Dashing Captain of anything, since Profession is already a class skill) would cover some well-known literary/media Swashbucklers.
I'd remove precision, change it to either dex or cha to damage (with a cap equal to level) and add support for the classic rapier/daggar and sword/buckler styles. The big thing people don't seem to get about fencing is that the off-hand is supposed to be doing something, swatting the sword away, or holding something to defend yourself with (and possibly attack!).
yes!
Swashbucklers should not be limited to "one weapon, one handed"
Rapier/ Main-gauche or fighting case (duel rapiers) should be an option...
of course they could end up becoming unique Archetypes
Honestly, why shouldn't an elven curve clade or a halberd be an option? Gunslingers get Dex to damage with firearm training, why not the same for the Swashbuckler?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For those who keep bringing it up, Daring-do is wordplay. It's a mash-up of the "correct" derring-do, and the word daring, a trait that any Swashbuckler should certainly possess. It's not a misspelling, it's an intentional twist on the normal word.
Maybe I'm not the only one who likes reading dictionaries. This entry hasn't been updated since 1895, but it's still plenty interesting!
derring do | derring-do, n.
pseudo-archaism.
The two words durring, dorryng, daring, vbl. n. from durran, dorren to DARE v., and don, do, pres. inf. of DO v., literally daring to do, which, by a chain of misunderstandings and errors, have come to be treated as a kind of substantive combination, taken to mean, Daring action or feats, 'desperate courage.'
The words come incidentally in their ordinary sense and construction followed by the object 'that' (= what, that which) in Chaucer's Troylus; whence, in an imitative passage by Lydgate, in an absolute construction more liable to misunderstanding; Lydgate's dorryng do was misprinted in the 16th c. editions (1513 and 1555) derrynge do, in which form it was picked up by Spenser and misconstrued as a subst. phrase, explained in the Glossary to the Sheph. Cal. as 'manhood and chevalrie'. Modern romantic writers, led by Sir W. Scott, have taken it from Spenser, printed it derring-do and accentuated the erroneous use.
I'd remove precision, change it to either dex or cha to damage (with a cap equal to level) and add support for the classic rapier/daggar and sword/buckler styles. The big thing people don't seem to get about fencing is that the off-hand is supposed to be doing something, swatting the sword away, or holding something to defend yourself with (and possibly attack!).yes!
Swashbucklers should not be limited to "one weapon, one handed"
Rapier/ Main-gauche or fighting case (duel rapiers) should be an option...
of course they could end up becoming unique Archetypes
The only problem is that some people will WANT to fight with only a single weapon in one hand. That is part of the image of a 'swashbuckler'. Its not the only way for sure, but it is a common one. If you balance the class for that style (the weakest form of fighting in the game) then also allowing other styles with no other changes would make them (potentially) too strong.
What I would like to see is a class that works as a 1handed only dex based combat assuming only the options available in the rpg line (no dervish dance or agile weapons unless they get printed in this book), and have archetypes that allow things like 2handed finese weapons (elven curve blade) or a 2haned style or a rapier and buckler. Make it work for the basic style first, then add seperate options to make it work for the other things.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For those who keep bringing it up, Daring-do is wordplay. It's a mash-up of the "correct" derring-do, and the word daring, a trait that any Swashbuckler should certainly possess. It's not a misspelling, it's an intentional twist on the normal word.Maybe I'm not the only one who likes reading dictionaries. This entry hasn't been updated since 1895, but it's still plenty interesting!
[snip]
Those of us pointing out why it would be a really poor attempt at wordplay are doing so via the definition. It's not wordplay if you're just altering the spelling slightly to mean the exact same thing.
The very idea that it's somehow witty or clever to rewrite derring-do as daring-do and then pat yourself on the back is making Wilde spin in his grave.|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd remove precision, change it to either dex or cha to damage (with a cap equal to level) and add support for the classic rapier/daggar and sword/buckler styles. The big thing people don't seem to get about fencing is that the off-hand is supposed to be doing something, swatting the sword away, or holding something to defend yourself with (and possibly attack!).yes!
Swashbucklers should not be limited to "one weapon, one handed"
Rapier/ Main-gauche or fighting case (duel rapiers) should be an option...
of course they could end up becoming unique Archetypes
The only problem is that some people will WANT to fight with only a single weapon in one hand. That is part of the image of a 'swashbuckler'. Its not the only way for sure, but it is a common one. If you balance the class for that style (the weakest form of fighting in the game) then also allowing other styles with no other changes would make them (potentially) too strong.
What I would like to see is a class that works as a 1handed only dex based combat assuming only the options available in the rpg line (no dervish dance or agile weapons unless they get printed in this book), and have archetypes that allow things like 2handed finese weapons (elven curve blade) or a 2haned style or a rapier and buckler. Make it work for the basic style first, then add seperate options to make it work for the other things.
I'm among those that really want to see a one-handed or one-handed plus buckler finesse style pass the "Is this character good when measured against quadratic casters and Falchion Fred?" test. Generally in 3.5 and PF up to this point, that character is only possible with a lot of CharOp/Theorycrafting/wacky builds, such as Dervish Magus and similarly narrow builds.
I agree that archetypes would be a good way to enable different styles with the Swashbuckler, possibly nerfing or changing the numeric effects of the most powerful of the class's abilities in return for enabling them to be used with combat styles that the game's rules already have better support for?
But I think picking on Agile weapons is a bit much - sacrificing an entire +1 bonus on a weapon and the late acquisition in most campaigns, including PFS, balances it out - AFAIK the DPR math really takes a beating from losing +1 to hit and to damage that you give up when you drop +1 of the enhancement bonus to a weapon. It's still a net positive when an Agile weapon is wielded by a character that maxed out Dex, but I don't think it breaks the game because it comes at a serious cost and requires surviving 5-7 levels before you can have it, and by that time, Dex-based Swashbucklers probably need some sort of damage boost to not sit out of any combat involving crit-immune monsters.
Dervish is easier to access earlier *if* the Swashbuckler gains actual Weapon Finesse as a feat, or if the wording on the current ability is changed to include "The Swashbuckler is counter as having the Weapon Finesse feats for the purpose of qualifying for feats and prestige classes that require it."
Otherwise, if Swashbuckler Finesse can't be subbed in for the actual Weapon Finesse feat, the feat tax on having to take Weapon Finesse when you already have it as a class ability seems like it's painful enough that Dervish doesn't need to be punished any more than that.