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I feel like there needs to be more varied options for the inspiration since as it stands most of the abilities you gain are either removing the need to pay inspiration costs to use inspiration on those skills or just buffing the ability. That is all fine and dandy but eventually that is going to run out of steam and become an uninteresting choice for character advancement especially considering how many skills don't really require you to keep them maxed out in order to be viable. That being said I do like the inspired intimidation and how you can use it to extend the length of a demoralization and hope we can get more abilities that do that, find some new way to utilize a skill that makes sense with a mechanic built around brilliant moments of inspiration.
I also echo the feelings on the poison use but feel like it would make more sense if their were more inspiration ability options that could be used to work with the mechanic.
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My first impression was "Holy crap this is OP!" then I started comparing it to classes that were not the rogue class... I really do think that this class will almost completely replace the rogue for anybody who cares about system mastery. Its' very existence makes rogue a 'Trap option.' That being said I think it is time I gave up on the rogue being a valuable party member and jumped on this Investigator thing.
I'm the only one here who think that with the slayer and the investigator we can forget the Rogue? We've got the skill monkey version which is honorable in combat I think, and the dark killer verion too.
So Rogue just getting more and more useless? ^^
Shhhh, don't talk about replacing the rogue...
EVERYTHING IS FINE HERE JASON, WORKING AS INTENDED
seriously though, its nice to see a versatile rogue-like class that can make that trope really shine
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I am in -love- with this class. And I seem to be in the minority, but I like the poison use, too; but maybe better off as a talent for this guy?
BRB, making an investigative medieval forensic detective specializing in identifying and utilizing chemicals and toxins, Shamrock Mansion.
All of my <3.
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[list]Yeah, it does. Investigators are supposed to solve crimes, not create them.Poison use felt out of place to me
It would make sense for an investigator to be good at recognising, safely handling and counteracting poisons. Knowing how to apply them safely to weapons might be a consequence of that, there's no obligation to use that knowledge. So a different focus on poisons? Bonuses on healing poisons?
I love it! Maybe make it a scalable bonus to damage that the investigator can take advantage of too.I agree with your stance on sneak attack. Maybe extra damage based on perception checks, (seeing weak spots, previous injuries, etc.) since it fits with observation/deduction.I just had a thought, and maybe it's too good, or just doesn't benefit the Investigator PC enough, but what if the Investigator was able to grant the Sneak Attack to an allied character- ie, giving them the benefits of his observations. I know there's an Inspiration ability (Inspirational Awareness) that does something like that already, but just tossing out some ideas.
Might as well go ahead and replace the sneak attack with bonus teamwork feats in that case. Sure, it's a power downgrade, but as it stands this is a very powerful class, and probably can deal with it and still come up swinging.
Other than the poison parts not really fitting with the fluff of beng an investigator I think this class looks great. Lots of customizing available.
Good work!
This is a tricky one to analyze. I'm generally liking what I see, but there's an awful lot of permutation to it when investigator talents can emulate both alchemist discoveries and rogue talents. On that now, how much recursion can you get there? Can I take the ninja talent rogue talent with my investigator talent?
The inspiration mechanic is the highlight for me, which I wouldn't mind seeing expanded somewhat. How does it interact with natural 1s though?
Inspirational Expertise is a nice one too, reminds me of 3.5's paragnostic apostle. It does hammer home the weird way in which these can largely stand in for bards though.
Might as well go ahead and replace the sneak attack with bonus teamwork feats in that case. Sure, it's a power downgrade, but as it stands this is a very powerful class, and probably can deal with it and still come up swinging.
Something like the Cavalier's Tactician ability, then?
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It's worth noting that the poison and alchemy abilities are a part of the literary canon of Investigators: Mr. Holmes, archetype that he is, was a phenomenal chemist.
I think the "free" uses of Inspiration on certain skills might be a bit much, but they do serve to emphasize where an Investigator would normally spend their skill points, versus a Rogue or Ninja.
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The only items missing for the character I'm looking to build is access to Cognatogen and free insperation use for bluff(you can get it for diplo and intim so it seems there should be the option).
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Poison should be taken off; if nothing else to make it fit into PFS and most campaigns.
As to the character build, they can get the ability to aid another twice a round at level 3. Throw in Adopted (Halfling), Gloves of Spellstrike (and the feat), and some benevolent weapons and armor and you have a character that can hand out potions to friends, have a bevvy of them for himself via alchemical allocation, and give away +5-+6 to hit twice a round while bodyguarding all of those around him.
And they are about as good as combat-alchemists for the combat end, maybe a tiny bit better with the sneak attack.
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Investigator type characters are my spirit animals so I'm pretty happy about this.
Now to grump, because it is also in my nature.
I'd take out the poison use/resistance and keep them for an archetype.
Maybe drop the SA by a dice or two here or there, or don't, not really too important one way or another to me.
And pick some abilities from the Sleepless Detective.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/sleepless- detective
I'm thinking: Canny Sleuth, add the various spell like abilities to the formula list (blood biography etc.).
Also, I like the alchemy, feels less like jr. wizard and more like a dude figuring things out in a lab.
Maybe a talent for using firearms for more modern aesthetic games? Or another archetype?
At this point you can obsolete two classes at once.
FINALLY a good detective class! Nicely done... although, just have the standard Sneak Attack progression, like getting it at 2nd level instead of 4th. Also, will the book come with new spells? Because I'm pretty sure you could have some cool ones to identify blood samples and such, like a real forensic expert ^_^
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I'm of two minds on the Investigator; the new mechanic (Inspiration) doesn't do much besides add plusses, so most of its combat ability is a copy of the rogue. I'd rather tone down the sneak attack (maybe 1d6 per four levels), while also giving him more tricks in combat with Inspiration.
As someone who still plays rogues and has damn fun doing it, and played with rogues in the last two campaigns I played in, I still love this class and don't see it replacing them.
I do really love that it gives me a Good Rogue kinda to play with rather than the flavor the regular rogue.
And I feel like poison use fits thematically for forensic purposes. Knowing how poisons work is important to identifying them.
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First (non-playtested) impressions:
I really like this class, just behind the slayer. I'm meh on the poison resistance, but the poison use seems uncharacteristic for the standard investigator (maybe it'd be a better fit in an archetype).
...Also, if the book contains an archetype that removes the Extract ability entirely and substitutes in something else nice, then it will definitely obsolete the Rogue in my book. Though honestly, I would love to see and play that archetype.
Yeah, my immediate thought on my first read was "What about an archetype that drops extracts and gains some form of mutagen, like a Professor Moriarty & Mr. Hyde?"
I agree with your stance on sneak attack. Maybe extra damage based on perception checks, (seeing weak spots, previous injuries, etc.) since it fits with observation/deduction.
Like I suggested for the slayer, I wish the designers would please give some consideration to replacing sneak attack (highly situational, high damage) with a form of the excellent Opportunities Aplenty ability (more frequent, less but still decent damage) from the Vicious Opportunist archetype. That would thematically seem to fit well with certain portrayals of Sherlock's combat abilities.
I just had a thought, and maybe it's too good, or just doesn't benefit the Investigator PC enough, but what if the Investigator was able to grant the Sneak Attack to an allied character- ie, giving them the benefits of his observations. I know there's an Inspiration ability (Inspirational Awareness) that does something like that already, but just tossing out some ideas.
And the Vicious Opportunist's Direct Allies ability would work here as well.
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I feel like all of the poison abilities are an ill fit for the investigator class and should be replaced. Also, not sure about the amount of sneak attack...
^- I agree with this. The investigator was the first class I flipped to because it's one of my favorite archetypes.
Personally I feel like this class would be a better "Bard/Alchemist" hybrid instead of a "Rogue/Alchemist" hybrid. The only rogue ability that really seems to fit here are the Rogue Talents, which could easily be replaced by Alchemist Discoveries (with a different list to pick from, of course).
Poison use doesn't really fit with the concept very well. Yes, Holmes was a phenomenal chemist but he didn't USE poison, he just identified it when other people did. The same goes with sneak attack. It isn't a terrible mechanical choice, but it just seems ... off. Even the more active literary detectives didn't really run around stabbing people in the kidneys.
Overall, I feel like this is a support class that doesn't really do much to support the party (other than winning at skill checks). Which is part of why I think Bard would be a better mix than Rogue.
I don't really like the inspiration mechanic as is. It seems a little clumsy. Some skill boosts cost points, but some skills don't so you can do it on every check? So some skills are always going to get a random bonus? I love the overall idea, I just feel it needs more legs. Maybe get rid of the "free use" bit and just give a class bonus to those skills, and then expand the list of things you can do with inspiration points (tie it into the talents/discoveries better so we get more Inspired Alertness and fewer Intellectual Inspirations).
1. Disguise - Holmes was well known for this. This class should have some disguise bonuses (faster application, short term bonuses, etc) even if they're just option abilities that you can select as you gain levels.
2. Deductive Skills - Not just a matter of being good at skill checks. Detectives should be able to get extra information from successful skill checks, like Perception, Sense Motive, or Survival, if they take additional time. They could deduce clues faster at higher levels:
Initial skill check that anyone could get: "The person who made these tracks walks with a limp and wears boots. He passed through here at a jog an hour ago."
Detective, after a few minutes: "The jogger was a male, mid 30's, and he recently visited Magnimar. Probably a merchant sailor, or someone who spends a lot of time at sea. You can tell by the shape of the boot heel and the faint scent of salt here by the toe...".
3. Planning & Insight - Hard to do in a tabletop RPG, but it could come in the form of the Detective giving bonuses to other characters, and being able to swap around some of their own spells on the fly (by spending Inspiration, for example). Instead of a big bonus or a lot of bonuses, focus on flexible & timely bonuses.
4. Forensic skills - With the proper setup, detectives should be awesome at identifying cursed items, potions, magical items, monsters, etc.
I do like the alchemy abilities, but I feel like they'd be better casting spells like a bard than using extracts like an alchemist. Especially if they have ways to disguise their spell casting.
I'd like more of a mix of a Gentleman/Gentlewoman Detective like Holmes, Dupin, and maybe some Lupin mixed with a splash of Occult Detective like Harry D'Amour, John Thunstone, and maybe John Constantine.
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Specific recommendations based on the thread so far:
1. Poison use should be moved into an archetype, and replaced with something else in the standard class.
2. I recommend leaving Sneak Attack as it is. This class doesn't need any nerfing.
3. *If* you do decide to reduce Sneak Attack, please replace it with some additional ability that will enhance the class's combat ability.
4. As I mentioned earlier, there should be a way to get freebie Inspiration on Bluff. I don't think that such an ability would trample on the Bard's niche of interpersonal skills.
5. Please make archetypes that swap out Extracts for other things. Some players don't like having to keep lists of spells/extracts and worry about a whole bunch of per-day resources. Some especially hate preparing spells/extracts, since they worry about making bad choices that waste their resources for that day. I suggest the following archetypes:
- A completely extract-free/spell-free investigator, who has no magical powers. Replace it with either more Inspiration per day and more Talents, or else something completely different. This archetype is for people who want to play non-magical Investigators.
- Make an archetype with a limited number of extracts known and the ability to spontaneously use them. This is for players who hate preparing spells.
6. General observation: this seems like a very expensive class to play. Especially at early levels, the Investigator is going to be spending a lot on disposable items to be combat effective. Some players really hate using disposable items. Later on, they are also going to want fancy gear like a Rogue, and will also need money to expand their formula book. Could they perhaps get a free crafting feat to help them out?
7. Very specific observation: why doesn't the Alchemist Discovery Talent allow Cognatogen? It seems like the most obvious and flavorful choice for an Investigator that I can imagine.
2. I recommend leaving Sneak Attack as it is. This class doesn't need any nerfing.
Buff it instead maybe then? At the moment at level one they don't have much going for combat.
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One possibility--when you use inspiration on attack rolls, it also adds to damage? You don't get that many boosts every day, but at least you can do 1 or 2 stronger attacks each day at low levels.
One possibility--when you use inspiration on attack rolls, it also adds to damage? You don't get that many boosts every day, but at least you can do 1 or 2 stronger attacks each day at low levels.
I'd imagine that would be too little, and you'd be draining away from the resource you use to be awesome at skill checks.
Bard still wins in the skill race too doesn't he? Not that that's really a bad thing.
One possibility--when you use inspiration on attack rolls, it also adds to damage? You don't get that many boosts every day, but at least you can do 1 or 2 stronger attacks each day at low levels.I'd imagine that would be too little, and you'd be draining away from the resource you use to be awesome at skill checks.
Bard still wins in the skill race too doesn't he? Not that that's really a bad thing.
Yeah, I wanted to start conservatively, since the class has to be careful about overshadowing the rogue. Maybe something else at lowest levels combined with reducing higher level sneak attack progression? Because the investigator is undoubtedly viable in combat at higher levels once it gets discoveries and sneak attack, but my playtest so far showed it to be lukewarm at best at combat at level 1, even when I paid 10 points to get a 16 Strength to ameliorate this. Now, it was still awesome, as Alistair aced Knowledge (Local) checks and ran a sting operation on a little old lady. Also we couldn't stop laughing at how silly the Student of Philosophy trait is when roleplayed straight (always focusing on logical arguments, which somehow used my Int instead of Cha). Balancewise those traits that swap ability scores on skills probably should never have existed (or should have been limited to if you rolled them randomly on the background chart as in Ultimate Campaign rather than given free run in PFS), but they're certainly amusing.
This may be a pretty narrow ability, but what about using inspiration points to allow sneak attack to apply to a single attack regardless if that attack meets the requirements to apply sneak attack in the first place? I have not read over the Investigator that much so I apologize if something like this exists already.
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I love the Investigator. A solid majority of my characters are Rogue/Arcane Casters. This does absolutely everything I look for from a Rogue, and then they added all of the things I like about the Alchemist, and none of the things I hate.
I like Poison Use, and thinks it fits thematically, but would not be upset if it were changed to require spending a Talent to get. An archetype would be a bit much, though, especially since its likely I'll hate whatever it's bundled with. :) Remember that Poison is expensive, situational, and really only good at low levels (which is the point where the Investigator apparently needs the most combat help).
Could an Investigator 6 who acquired access to Mage Hand (via, say Minor Magic Rogue Talent) qualify for Arcane Trickster? I don't play enough Alchemists to know if extracts count as spells for that purpose, especially in light of the SLA ruling.
As far as I can see, this is a perfectly good class, on par with most other classes in Pathfinder. I hope we get at least one archetype which replaces Poison Use with something more benign (yet still useful). This is a class I could easily see myself playing, and that is coming from a person which deeply dislikes Sneak Attack.
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I like Poison Use, and thinks it fits thematically
I'm asking this with absolute sincerity ... how does "poison use" fit thematically with the concept of an "investigator"?
Can you name one literary or cinematic investigator who has ever poisoned people? Not just "deduced that poison was used" or "identified the poison used" but actually made personal use of poison against opponents?
It would be one thing if poison use was an option that could be selected as a talent, or gained through a villainous archetype, but as a base ability?
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I like this class a lot, it really fits the skill monkey role, and the flavor is awesome. Combat wise he feels weaker than the rogue (arguable one of the weakest combat classes in the game) and stacking sneak attack throws him into the same hole the rogue is in.
Instead, I think it'd be much more interesting to see the investigator benefit from intelligence as an attack/damage stat (and make it either use per day or some other restriction to not make it a dip). I think that might be a better way to make him combat useful while still doing less than the main damage dealers.
And I'm in the boat against poison use.
I'm gonna go map out an elven investigator w/ the +2 to all knowledges feat now to make a knowledge god.
Yes, this class completely obsoletes the rogue but that is a good thing. It is balanced with the alchemist and inquisitor and is everything that the rogue should be. I really like this class.
I'm looking forward to the PCs having to face off against some of these classes this weekend.
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I like Poison Use, and thinks it fits thematicallyI'm asking this with absolute sincerity ... how does "poison use" fit thematically with the concept of an "investigator"?
Can you name one literary or cinematic investigator who has ever poisoned people? Not just "deduced that poison was used" or "identified the poison used" but actually made personal use of poison against opponents?
It would be one thing if poison use was an option that could be selected as a talent, or gained through a villainous archetype, but as a base ability?
batman - i at least remember him throwing knockout grenades...
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One possibility--when you use inspiration on attack rolls, it also adds to damage? You don't get that many boosts every day, but at least you can do 1 or 2 stronger attacks each day at low levels.
I like this idea. I also like the idea of using Inspiration to make a sneak attack. Which wouldn't give the investigator the sneak attack ability directly, but would still let the investigator do extra damage occasionally (and unexpectedly).
I definitely like having options, particularly since the Inspiration pool is such a limited resource. So the player could choose how to use those abilities depending on what sort of investigator they want to make. Using inspiration personally would make more of a combat pragmatist style "two-fisted" investigator, while using them to boost your allies would make for a more cerebral investigator who boosts the rest of the party.
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batman - i at least remember him throwing knockout grenades...I like Poison Use, and thinks it fits thematicallyCan you name one literary or cinematic investigator who has ever poisoned people? Not just "deduced that poison was used" or "identified the poison used" but actually made personal use of poison against opponents?
It would be one thing if poison use was an option that could be selected as a talent, or gained through a villainous archetype, but as a base ability?
Batman is a good reason to give the Investigator a variation of the "alchemst bomb" class feature.
But Batman doesn't usually run with batarangs dipped in poison.
And neither do any of the hardboiled or gentleman detectives in literature. Mostly because they don't have batarangs, but also because they don't, as a rule, poison people.
I'm not sure I see the 'investigator' part of this but as an alternative to a Rogue or vivisectionist alchemist I love it and cant wait to play it. It does all that I hoped and more.
I like Poison Use, and thinks it fits thematicallyI'm asking this with absolute sincerity ... how does "poison use" fit thematically with the concept of an "investigator"?
Can you name one literary or cinematic investigator who has ever poisoned people? Not just "deduced that poison was used" or "identified the poison used" but actually made personal use of poison against opponents?
It would be one thing if poison use was an option that could be selected as a talent, or gained through a villainous archetype, but as a base ability?
I could see Dexter (from the eponymous TV series) here. And I am pretty sure that James Bond has used laudanum drops before.