Investigator Discussion


Class Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

With poison use being changed to another ability that can identify/neutralise poisons, it's worth keeping in mind that as a class feature, it shouldn't fall into the same trap as the monk's slow fall ability that gets unbalanced with a wizard's/sorcerer's feather fall @ 1st level plus all their other spells.


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Avatar-1 wrote:
With poison use being changed to another ability that can identify/neutralise poisons, it's worth keeping in mind that as a class feature, it shouldn't fall into the same trap as the monk's slow fall ability that gets unbalanced with a wizard's/sorcerer's feather fall @ 1st level plus all their other spells.

True story: it is probably going to be a super lame ability that no one cares about and will ever care about trading out. Pretty much the same a poison use is for the alchemist (unless the alchemist built around it).

Counter point: Who cares if there is also enough cool stuff there otherwise?

Silver Crusade

I see a lot of people saying that the Investigator is too SAD, and I'm not seeing it myself. It's no more SAD than the Alchemist, which came out fine. As it is now, it still has to make its way into melee which means it needs Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, as well as Intelligence for extracts and such.

I really am hoping without sneak attack we get an intelligence based way of boosting damage, but everyone who's saying it should take a move or god forbid a standard is really shooting this class in the foot. Maybe a move action, but a standard is going to make this class far too slow to participate in combat. I'd suggest a swift action to activate it. Still flavor it as studying things, make it based on knowledge, and possibly give you a +X damage, where X was your result/5 that lasted the entire combat. Now /5 isn't set in stone, it's more of a bench mark, but I'd burn a swift action and a point of Inspiration to get on average a +2/+3 bonus to damage against an opponent. This also gives you an automatically scaling ability on it, which lets you keep up your damage potential as well as pegs this as an intelligent battler.

Edit: Also as an aside, since Amazing Inspiration is such an obvious choice, I think it should be integrated into the class rather than being a discovery tax. I can't think of a character who WOULDN'T take this as soon as possible.


N. Jolly wrote:

I see a lot of people saying that the Investigator is too SAD, and I'm not seeing it myself. It's no more SAD than the Alchemist, which came out fine. As it is now, it still has to make its way into melee which means it needs Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, as well as Intelligence for extracts and such.

I really am hoping without sneak attack we get an intelligence based way of boosting damage, but everyone who's saying it should take a move or god forbid a standard is really shooting this class in the foot. Maybe a move action, but a standard is going to make this class far too slow to participate in combat. I'd suggest a swift action to activate it. Still flavor it as studying things, make it based on knowledge, and possibly give you a +X damage, where X was your result/5 that lasted the entire combat. Now /5 isn't set in stone, it's more of a bench mark, but I'd burn a swift action and a point of Inspiration to get on average a +2/+3 bonus to damage against an opponent. This also gives you an automatically scaling ability on it, which lets you keep up your damage potential as well as pegs this as an intelligent battler.

Edit: Also as an aside, since Amazing Inspiration is such an obvious choice, I think it should be integrated into the class rather than being a discovery tax. I can't think of a character who WOULDN'T take this as soon as possible.

We are saying that the attack itself is a standard action. It is not a standard action to buff and then attack. It is pretty much a bomb surrogate.


I don't recall seeing anyone say they were too SAD....might just not be paying attention.

Liberty's Edge

If intelligence based addition to damage/attack comes into play it is going to need to scale with level or in some way be limited so as not to become a dip class.

I think this is the best way to go with it, as it makes the most sense to the class, but I'm not sure how to approach it without causing other issues, particularly with ranged weapons.

I suppose you could make it an either or type of thing with melee to start and then later make it both.

I do hope they go ahead and switch it to something other than sneak attack, as it doesn't really fit the flavor.

Silver Crusade

Excaliburproxy wrote:
We are saying that the attack itself is a standard action. It is not a standard action to buff and then attack. It is pretty much a bomb surrogate.

I still feel like it should come with more, and that wasn't the vibe I was getting from things. At least for the move action ones. Bombs had the luxury of distance to them at least, but I guess these do get strength bonus added, so it evens out (since I can't see not picking up mutagen)

Cheapy wrote:
I don't recall seeing anyone say they were too SAD....might just not be paying attention.

I could swear I saw one of the Devs, Randy, say it somewhere earlier in the thread. I'll look for it later though.

Liberty's Edge

Excaliburproxy wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:
With poison use being changed to another ability that can identify/neutralise poisons, it's worth keeping in mind that as a class feature, it shouldn't fall into the same trap as the monk's slow fall ability that gets unbalanced with a wizard's/sorcerer's feather fall @ 1st level plus all their other spells.

True story: it is probably going to be a super lame ability that no one cares about and will ever care about trading out. Pretty much the same a poison use is for the alchemist (unless the alchemist built around it).

Counter point: Who cares if there is also enough cool stuff there otherwise?

I always wished that instead of bombs alchemist just had the ability to add poison to weapons as a swift action that did bonus damage similar to sneak attack, with similar limits to what was put onto bombs.

I never really cared for the whole mad bomber things.

Maybe something like that could make sense here, although poison use seems on the move now...

This one is tough.


ciretose wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:
With poison use being changed to another ability that can identify/neutralise poisons, it's worth keeping in mind that as a class feature, it shouldn't fall into the same trap as the monk's slow fall ability that gets unbalanced with a wizard's/sorcerer's feather fall @ 1st level plus all their other spells.

True story: it is probably going to be a super lame ability that no one cares about and will ever care about trading out. Pretty much the same a poison use is for the alchemist (unless the alchemist built around it).

Counter point: Who cares if there is also enough cool stuff there otherwise?

I always wished that instead of bombs alchemist just had the ability to add poison to weapons as a swift action that did bonus damage similar to sneak attack, with similar limits to what was put onto bombs.

I never really cared for the whole mad bomber things.

Maybe something like that could make sense here, although poison use seems on the move now...

This one is tough.

I was just saying that actually. Ha. (well, not exactly the nd6 progression exactly, but poisons for a low level attack option)

N. Jolly wrote:


I still feel like it should come with more, and that wasn't the vibe I was getting from things. At least for the move action ones. Bombs had the luxury of distance to them at least, but I guess these do get strength bonus added, so it evens out (since I can't see not picking up mutagen)

For range, you can do it with a crossbow too.

Liberty's Edge

i thought about this a bit since my last post, as is , at least in PFS, not sure if this class is playable, to much of a liability in combat for to long.

Suggested fix, others have suggested an int based variance of some kind and my suggestion would be something similar..... but not exactly the same.

Knowledge is Power: Starting at second level an Investigator can, as a swift action, access the combat situation and apply his knowledge of his opponent to the combat. Roll the appropriate knowledge check for your opponent (which can be augment by inspiration) as if identifying the target (10 + the monster’s CR most of the time). A success gives the investigator +1 to attack and damage vs that opponent (or type if more than one of the same type) as well as +1 AC vs that opponent (or type) for the remainder of the combat. For every 5 achieved over the target DC this is increased an additional +1. All bonus for this ability are Insight Bonus. This ability can not be used while the investigator is flat footed.

I ran this idea by a few folks and they liked it because knowledge, which should be this Class power, is giving it just that, and knowledge checks are most commonly used to find out how to deal with critters anyway. Also it allows for character specialization if desired. Your investigator could be really great at dealing with fey, but not so great with devils etc...

food for thought...........


So now that sneak attack could be potentially be taken of the table perhaps it's replacement could still be the same in spirit, like getting a bonus to damage if you have a higher intelligence than your target.


neferphras wrote:

i thought about this a bit since my last post, as is , at least in PFS, not sure if this class is playable, to much of a liability in combat for to long.

Suggested fix, others have suggested an int based variance of some kind and my suggestion would be something similar..... but not exactly the same.

Knowledge is Power: Starting at second level an Investigator can, as a swift action, access the combat situation and apply his knowledge of his opponent to the combat. Roll the appropriate knowledge check for your opponent (which can be augment by inspiration) as if identifying the target (10 + the monster’s CR most of the time). A success gives the investigator +1 to attack and damage vs that opponent (or type if more than one of the same type) as well as +1 AC vs that opponent (or type) for the remainder of the combat. For every 5 achieved over the target DC this is increased an additional +1. All bonus for this ability are Insight Bonus. This ability can not be used while the investigator is flat footed.

I ran this idea by a few folks and they liked it because knowledge, which should be this Class power, is giving it just that, and knowledge checks are most commonly used to find out how to deal with critters anyway. Also it allows for character specialization if desired. Your investigator could be really great at dealing with fey, but not so great with devils etc...

food for thought...........

Do people really want the class's main class feature to force a character to max every knowledge skill to be effective?

Liberty's Edge

Excaliburproxy wrote:
neferphras wrote:

i thought about this a bit since my last post, as is , at least in PFS, not sure if this class is playable, to much of a liability in combat for to long.

Suggested fix, others have suggested an int based variance of some kind and my suggestion would be something similar..... but not exactly the same.

Knowledge is Power: Starting at second level an Investigator can, as a swift action, access the combat situation and apply his knowledge of his opponent to the combat. Roll the appropriate knowledge check for your opponent (which can be augment by inspiration) as if identifying the target (10 + the monster’s CR most of the time). A success gives the investigator +1 to attack and damage vs that opponent (or type if more than one of the same type) as well as +1 AC vs that opponent (or type) for the remainder of the combat. For every 5 achieved over the target DC this is increased an additional +1. All bonus for this ability are Insight Bonus. This ability can not be used while the investigator is flat footed.

I ran this idea by a few folks and they liked it because knowledge, which should be this Class power, is giving it just that, and knowledge checks are most commonly used to find out how to deal with critters anyway. Also it allows for character specialization if desired. Your investigator could be really great at dealing with fey, but not so great with devils etc...

food for thought...........

Do people really want the class's main class feature to force a character to max every knowledge skill to be effective?

would they need every knowledge skill? not really, they could focus on what they want to focus on. This class is already going to want to have every knowledge skill anyway, just looking at its layout, its almost a given.


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What seems to be the most interesting is that the martial arts that we have seen in the the Sherlock Holmes movies, and, indeed the one mentioned in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's books is indeed Bartitsu.
He called it baritsu quite possibly for copyright purposes.

Here is a quick link to a wikipedia source.

Bartitsu

So, if we are to emulate the martial arts, why not just create a new "style" similar to Kirin etc.

Also, look it up on youtube. You will see some demonstrations there.


neferphras wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
neferphras wrote:

i thought about this a bit since my last post, as is , at least in PFS, not sure if this class is playable, to much of a liability in combat for to long.

Suggested fix, others have suggested an int based variance of some kind and my suggestion would be something similar..... but not exactly the same.

Knowledge is Power: Starting at second level an Investigator can, as a swift action, access the combat situation and apply his knowledge of his opponent to the combat. Roll the appropriate knowledge check for your opponent (which can be augment by inspiration) as if identifying the target (10 + the monster’s CR most of the time). A success gives the investigator +1 to attack and damage vs that opponent (or type if more than one of the same type) as well as +1 AC vs that opponent (or type) for the remainder of the combat. For every 5 achieved over the target DC this is increased an additional +1. All bonus for this ability are Insight Bonus. This ability can not be used while the investigator is flat footed.

I ran this idea by a few folks and they liked it because knowledge, which should be this Class power, is giving it just that, and knowledge checks are most commonly used to find out how to deal with critters anyway. Also it allows for character specialization if desired. Your investigator could be really great at dealing with fey, but not so great with devils etc...

food for thought...........

Do people really want the class's main class feature to force a character to max every knowledge skill to be effective?
would they need every knowledge skill? not really, they could focus on what they want to focus on. This class is already going to want to have every knowledge skill anyway, just looking at its layout, its almost a given.

That would be dumb. The optimal option would be to ALWAYS be to take every skill. That is a lot like having no choice at all.

But yeah. Game theory. Strictly dominant strategies.

The Exchange

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Cheapy hit's it on the nose here I think. Having a studied attack that allows you to add combat condition riders on attacks, bypass DR or resistances, etc would make it different enough from the rogue I'd love it. Sure, extra damage is nice. But Sickened for 1d4 rounds is more useful!


I actually think more debilitating attacks would be interesting, effective in combat, and fit the class much more than sneak attack. Inflicting penalties on attack, damage, etc. Fluff-wise, it could emulate that oft-cited scene from Sherlock Holmes - He's boxing his ears, and hitting at an angle to inflict pain and debilitate his opponent. It also allows for a physician finding pressure points, etc, or a gentleman duelist wrapping someone in their armpit with a cane, and knocking them to the ground.

Perhaps I'm greedy, but I want this class to be effective, and to match the vision I have in my head of numerous potential builds - not just a hard boiled detective. With sneak attack, even as a rogue: the playstyle to me is less, "My intelligent rogue observes your weak areas and capitalizes on them for her benefit" and more "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

Liberty's Edge

It is an alchemist hybrid. How about we take the bomb concept and change it to contact poisons that can be applied as a swift action to weapons. These contact poisons will that have various effects, one of which being damage along the same line as bombs.

Later you can apply it more often (like fast bombs), and you can change out the damage for effects as discussed.

Thoughts?

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8

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I've been working on a first level investigator for a Pathfinder Society game, and I can't figure out how to contribute when we have to fight something. As a reference point, one of my most successful pathfinder field agents is a bard with no strength or dexterity bonus.

I see there's been plenty of discussion already about the investigator's lack of offensive capability at low levels, but due to the investigator's heavy reliance on tools, it's difficult to compensate with equipment. Proficiency at my role cracking traps and locks requires thieves' tools (30 gp), and brewing my extracts requires an alchemist's crafting kit (25 gp), so over a third of the character's starting wealth is devoted to tools of the trade that don't provide anything beyond proficient use of my class features. That's money my comparably skillful bard spent on alchemist's fire, holy water, and alkali flasks. The ability to identify a monster is great, but my bard can do that and inspire courage and cast spells on other creatures.

Of course, this is all just speculation until I put it to the test. The game is scheduled for tonight, so I'll post a real playtest report as soon as I die get the chance.


Sam, one thing I investigated was using Craft Alchemy to craft alchemical items at a lower price. Since crafting costs 1/3rd, if you can just take 10 and make acid flasks, you'll have something to do for a while, with 3 times as many flasks as others would have.

I haven't run the numbers on this yet, but your concern about how much money it takes just to use the class features is a bit worrisome.


Excaliburproxy wrote:
Do people really want the class's main class feature to force a character to max every knowledge skill to be effective?

Pfft, its only six. That's what, like... all of your skill points from class alone?

Yeah, attaching class features to skills comes with that unfortunately. I'm not a big fan of it myself.


Basing bonuses or DCs on skills has a number of problems either way, as it is trivial to boost your skills. The /5 five thing works, but it's not quite as elegant as some other solution.

Grand Lodge

Question: If an Aasimar or Tiefling (non-humanoid) Investigator created an extract of Enlarge Person (spell normally only targets Humanoids) and drank it, would it work on them? I heard it works for Alchemists but I couldn't find anything in the text for Investigator that would allow it to work.


I have not gotten to play test this class and more than likely won't get to, but My GM is constantly complain about the alchemist and all it bomb ability’s. With touch ac just getting easier and easier to hit constantly doing damage or add effects ect, combing it with mutagen bonus to ac + increase to dex just makes it worse and worse and worse. There are not a lot of ways to counter this other getting behind full cover or removing visibility some kind of way.

The talk of giving investigator the ability get heal poisons sparked and idea. Maybe it would be nice for an for investigator to be a counter to the alchemist. Give him talent that lets him counter bomb much like spell casting counter spelling. As a ready action, as alchemist can counter bomb with a successful alchemy check to identy compant used and make a counter agent to the bombs or disable device for delayed bombs. They can use it x times per day int mod. A talent doing the same thing maybe make anti mutagen. Investigator can make an anti-mutagen, make it a check like dispel magic to remove the mutagen effect.

Don't make it too easy to do but make it at least possiable.


Drake Brimstone wrote:
Question: If an Aasimar or Tiefling (non-humanoid) Investigator created an extract of Enlarge Person (spell normally only targets Humanoids) and drank it, would it work on them? I heard it works for Alchemists but I couldn't find anything in the text for Investigator that would allow it to work.

As far as I know alchemist extracts work like potions and they aren't any different from having the spell cast on you. So your still an outsider and still can't be affected by a potion that would only affect humanoids. You can still take the infusion discovery through the investigator class though if I remember right, but that only lets you hand out your buffs and still doesn't make them work any differently on you.

The Exchange

I'd love to be able to Witche's Evil Eye someone as a melee attack. Get around the mind effecting an instead be tied to the rules of 'criticals or no'. So elemental and oozes would be immune to deblitation via attacks. But not anyone else!

Oh pardon me and my arrow to your -4 AC or to HIT.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8

Cheapy wrote:

Sam, one thing I investigated was using Craft Alchemy to craft alchemical items at a lower price. Since crafting costs 1/3rd, if you can just take 10 and make acid flasks, you'll have something to do for a while, with 3 times as many flasks as others would have.

I haven't run the numbers on this yet, but your concern about how much money it takes just to use the class features is a bit worrisome.

Thanks for pointing that out! I'd forgotten that alchemists were allowed to craft their own alchemical items in organized play. I expect to use a good number of alchemical items, so crafting them should offset the tool costs after a few missions.

Liberty's Edge

How about something like this

"Toxins (Su): Investigators are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful contact poisons that they can use on their enemies. An investigator can use a number of toxins each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. These toxins can be applied to weapons as a swift action. Toxins are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of toxic material from being created and stored. In order to create a toxin, the Investigator must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the investigator can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster's component pouch. Most inquisitors create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of toxins they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the investigator for years."

Add a mechanic like fast bombs for when they get multiple attacks...something like that.

Dark Archive

TLDR

I feel the class takes too long to feel you are enjoying it. 3rd level to finally feel it is on it's way is too long. I loved many UM discoveries but care nothing for these or the base discoveries.

Poison is terrible, too much gp, too low DC. Worst of all i have to remember to make the saves every round and remind the penalties every turn. A major pain, irritant. I also see little reason an investigator would use poison other than a sleeping agent to subdue or truth serum in interrogation.

Please just give him the same ability of a grenadier and let him.add acid and similar stuff. The extra hp damage is easy & useful.

I like inspiration.

I have no problem with the investigator taking the place of the rogue in the next edition.

Grand Lodge

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Sam Polak wrote:

I've been working on a first level investigator for a Pathfinder Society game, and I can't figure out how to contribute when we have to fight something. As a reference point, one of my most successful pathfinder field agents is a bard with no strength or dexterity bonus.

Now that they've mentioned the possibility of removing sneak attack and pulling the class a bit further away from the rogue, I'll throw out another poke for the idea of making the investigator a Bard/Alchemist instead of a Rogue/Alchemist.

Without sneak attack, the only remaining tie-in to the rogue class are the talents ... which could easily be covered by alchemist discoveries.

Plus, if you use bard as a base instead of rogue then you can tie Inspiration in as a replacement for Bardic Performance. Then you won't have to invent a new chain of feats to play with Inspiration. You can just get extra mileage out of the existing feats.

Like Bardic Performance, rounds of Inspiration could be spent to:

1. Power certain discoveries
2. Give the investigator a bonus to their own combat abilities (similar to the archeologist archetype) for a round as a swift action.
3. Give a timely bonus to a single ally as an immediate action.

Unlike a regular bard, who can give bonuses to the entire party, an investigator could only boost a single ally. BUT it could be done immediately, to boost (and sometimes save) an ally who would otherwise fall a bit short.

Unlike an archaeologist, who only has to boost himself, an investigator has a lot more possible demands on his limited pool of inspiration points. Which means there ends up being a choice each round and you have to be more careful about burning through Inspiration too quickly. Do you boost yourself this round, or save your inspiration to give the fighter an extra +1 on her will save? You could also make the self-boost a choice, so the investigator could boost AC or saves, but only one per round. At higher levels, they could boost more than one.

EDIT: I also think these abilities should be mostly non-magical. You'd have the same limitations as Bardic Performance (the investigator needs to be seen/heard) but giving a bonus to an ally would be fluffed more as "shouting a timely warning". Or maybe something on the lines of "Luckily, before we got into this fight, I deduced our enemy would lead with a color spray and told Ms. Fighter to brace herself right from the start." Even though the player didn't know what would happen, the investigator character was on top of it.


Cheapy wrote:

Sam, one thing I investigated was using Craft Alchemy to craft alchemical items at a lower price. Since crafting costs 1/3rd, if you can just take 10 and make acid flasks, you'll have something to do for a while, with 3 times as many flasks as others would have.

I haven't run the numbers on this yet, but your concern about how much money it takes just to use the class features is a bit worrisome.

Did Sean ever cancel the needing a full round action to ready a splash weapon? This thread is long so I might have missed it if he did, but if he didn't, I can't go against what the developer told me in person for PFS, so that will weaken my poor playtest Investigator.


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I expect table variance.


So, i have a question to ask those participating in this discussion.

What do we expect the investigator to do in combat?

I understand that we want him to be able to handle himself in a combat situation, and believe that should be a standard for every class.

Do we want the investigator to take out the minions? take out the main badguy?

Do we want him to debuff others in combat, making it easier for the rest of the team to remove the threat?
Do we want a sneak attack type of ability where he does mass damage under certain conditions? (This seems to be what we don't want.)

We need more clarity on what we expect the investigator to actually do in combat.
Once we have this clarity, we can begin to focus on a solution much easier.


...they could have an ability where they puff on a pipe and it creates obscuring mist!


I was okay with sneak attack, but not with almost full progression.
Maybe the investigator could have an ability to inspire insight in battle granting the party bonuses if he makes a knowledge/perception/sense motiv check?

Otherwise half sneak attack and something that makes inspiration useable in battle


The more i think on it, the more the movies seemed to use this method.

Prescient Attack (Su)

Prerequisite: Magus 6

Benefit: The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, allowing him to anticipate his opponent’s defenses. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus against the magus’s attacks until the end of the magus’s next turn.

and

Prescient Defense (Su)

Prerequisite: Magus 9

Benefit: The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack, granting him a premonition of his enemy’s intentions. The magus gains a bonus to his AC and on Reflex saves equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) against attacks by that opponent until the beginning of his next turn.

Or

Foresight
Associated School: Divination.

Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the diviner’s fortune and scrying adept powers of the divination school.

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Foretell (Su): At 8th level, you can utter a prediction of the immediate future. While your foretelling is in effect, you emit a 30-foot aura of fortune that aids your allies or hinders your enemies, as chosen by you at the time of prediction. If you choose to aid, you and your allies gain a +2 luck bonus on ability checks, attack rolls, caster level checks, saving throws, and skill checks. If you choose to hinder, your enemies take a –2 penalty on those rolls instead. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

But it seems that a good way of duplicating the movies is by adding the below spell to the investigator's list.

Moment of Prescience

School divination; Level sorcerer/wizard 8, witch 8; Domain luck 8, memory 8
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 hour/level or until discharged

DESCRIPTION

This spell grants you a sixth sense. Once during the spell's duration, you may choose to use its effect. This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, combat maneuver check, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. Alternatively, you can apply the insight bonus to your AC against a single attack (even if flat-footed). Activating the effect doesn't take an action; you can even activate it on another character's turn. You must choose to use the moment of prescience before you make the roll it is to modify. Once used, the spell ends. You can't have more than one moment of prescience active on you at the same time.

All are great methods of working that sixth sense into combat.


Azran wrote:

I was okay with sneak attack, but not with almost full progression.

Maybe the investigator could have an ability to inspire insight in battle granting the party bonuses if he makes a knowledge/perception/sense motiv check?

Otherwise half sneak attack and something that makes inspiration useable in battle

They actually have that ability, if they identify a creature they can spend a use of inspiration to grant all allies +4 on attack roles versus creatures of that type for 1 round. It is a darn good ability.

I think that the easiest way to trade out sneak attack for something more thematically appropriate is to limit the uses per day just like bombs for the alchemist (which have the same 1d6 per odd level progression conveniently)

If you bootstrap that activated, limited-use damage usage to a regular attack (not a touch attack like a thrown bomb), eliminate splash damage, and make the damage physical just like a sneak attack, but also remove the dexless/flanking condition.. you have a great merger of the two abilities.

Make the uses per day equal to lvl+int just like inspiration/bombs and let the Investigator use this once per round (possibly more with a talent)

You can drop down the dice progression a bit if needed, but this would be a perfect solution for this class. They would end up with one moderately decent attack per round that could feasibly be used with any of their iconic weapons (fist, sword cane, a pistol, a crossbow, a sap, whatever they want to do)


Seriously, who are these fictional detectives that are not good at sneak attacks? We're not talking Jessica Fletcher here.


RJGrady wrote:
Seriously, who are these fictional detectives that are not good at sneak attacks? We're not talking Jessica Fletcher here.

Personally, I just don't like the flavor of underhandedness inherent to sneak attack. Certainly you can re-skin that idea and make it fit the theme, but if there is an opportunity to change things from the outset, I would prefer that option.

I also know from personal experience that sneak attack can be a bit of a white elephant, in that it takes some work to get it to function at a high level. I also feel that changing sneak attack for the Slayer/Investigator to something that is a limited resource ensures that the Rogue, who gets unlimited sneak attacks, remains that King of that mechanic. This helps to preserve the Rogue, in a way, as a perfectly viable alternative.

Currently, the investigator might just be too good compared to the rogue. Changing sneak attack (in the method I suggested) ensures that investigators are not dependent on trying to finagle the sneak attack conditions but also that they can't overshadow any rogue that DOES manage to handle those conditions.


Lord_Malkov wrote:
RJGrady wrote:
Seriously, who are these fictional detectives that are not good at sneak attacks? We're not talking Jessica Fletcher here.
Personally, I just don't like the flavor of underhandedness inherent to sneak attack.

Well, rogue + alchemist doesn't lend itself well to the two-fisted detective archetype. I think we're pretty firmly in Sherlock/Batman territory, and both of them rely heavily on sneak attacks.


I think sneak attack fits, but I just want a new unique ability.


I just turned in my thesis draft and a government grant so it is time for my new favorite hobby:

Making up alternatives to sneak attack for the investigator.

1. Wacky Fun Smoke Bombs

Starting at level 1, the Investigator gets a number of smoke bombs per day equal to 3+int and an additional smoke bomb at every level there after. Smoke bombs come in two varieties at level 1:

Obfuscating bombs: creates a 10-foot radius cloud of smoke that obscures vision (total concealment). This cloud persists for 1+1d4 rounds and can be dismissed by a strong wind.

Choking bomb: creates a 5-foot radius cloud of smoke. Every creature inside this radius must make a fort save (DC 10+int+1/2 investigator level) or be staggered for 1 round. The smoke dissipates quickly.

Starting at level 4 they get acrid bombs.
Acrid bomb: Creates a cloud of smoke with a 10-foot radius that grants partial cover in and out and persists for 1+1d4 rounds. The vile smoke causes 1d6+int damage to all creatures that begin their turn in the acrid smoke cloud. This damage increases by 1d6 at 6th level and every two levels thereafter to a maximum of 9d6 at level 20. (fort save for half damage)

Investigators are immune to the effects of their own smoke bombs. Talents for more or modified bombs.

2. Bartitsu Mastery

The Investigator gains unarmed strike as a bonus feat at level 1. Gets monk progression for unarmed strike damage.

May deal unarmed strike damage with a rapier or sword cane as a monk equal to her level-4 if that is better.

Gain flurry of blows accept that the first attack in the "two weapon fighting" attack must be made with a cane sword or rapier and the second attack must be an unarmed attack.

3. Essentially Warlord Powers [from my home brew Pathfinder Warlord class!]

Gains a pool of an ability called "master strokes". 3+Int + every investigator level after the first.

Master stroke has two uses at level 1:

Telling blow: As a standard action, the investigator makes an attack with a one handed melee weapon or a crossbow with a +2 competence bonus to the attack roll. On a hit, the attack deals normal damage and the opponent becomes dazed until the end of the investigator's next turn. The at 3rd level and every 3rd level thereafter, the investigator's competences bonus to make this attack increase by +1. At 4th level and every two levels thereafter the damage of this attack increases by 1d6.

Strategic beat down: As a move action, the investigator may rally and coordinate her allies against a reeling foe for 1+1d4. Every ally that can see and hear the investigator in this period of time gains a +1 competence bonus on all attack rolls against dazed, stunned, staggered, blind, or sickened opponents. This competence bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. Moreover, during the duration of this ability each ally effected by this power may--exactly once per "strategic beatdown"--declare a melee or ranged weapon attack against dazed, stunned, staggered, blind, or sickened opponent a "reeling attack" before the dice is rolled. A "reeling attack" is a normal weapon attack, but if the attack deals damage to the enemy that enemy dazed until the end of the attacker's next turn.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I liked Sneak Attack, but I wanted to see it drawn down to 5d6 to 7d6. An Investigator shouldn't be nearly as good at Sneak Attacking as a rogue or ninja.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I liked Sneak Attack, but I wanted to see it drawn down to 5d6 to 7d6. An Investigator shouldn't be nearly as good at Sneak Attacking as a rogue or ninja.

Dislike!

I could go on but they are replacing it anyways.


Yeah, it seems like a 5d6 is far to little damage.
However, if that was the final damage, it should either apply to all attacks, kinda like a bane, or there should be other debuffs that accompany it. Similar to Pressure Points of the ninja.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Inquisitor Feedback

Bad:

-Saves: Alchemist is Fort/Reflex, Rogue is just Reflex, so why is Inquisitor Ref/Will? I agree with the decision based on character flavor but when you factor in that they get poison use and no fort save it seems a bit disjointed. Which leads into my next point...
-Poison Use: I know a lot of people have already said it but poison use feels tacked on. When I think investigator I think of Sherlock Holmes, Harry Dresden, Dick Tracy. I can't actually think of a character that fits the given flavor but uses poisons.

Good:

-I absolutely love the concept. It was the very first class in the playtest that caught my eye. I instantly made a char and am playing it in my weekly game. Lvl 10.
-Inspiration is a very fun ability. I'm curious how it interacts with mythic. I like how you can get bonuses and grant them to friends based on your knowledge.

Suggestion: have you though about adding canny defense or something similar to iajutsu from kensai?

I think that's all I have for now. Will post more as I get to play it more, ust some initial feedback for now.


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An ability to add your int mod to melee damage would be nice;)


keep the 9d6 sneak attack in the class, or reduce it down to 7d6 at the lowest progression

Sherlock Holmes, Batman, the 2 most iconic investigators, used a lot of underhanded tactics, oh wait, from what i heard, Dick Tracy and Harry Dresden were also pretty underhanded. in fact, the concept of the underhanded detective is fairly well known. i'd personally give the detective a batman-esque way of using alchemical goods (such as poisons and smoke bombs) as a way to set up sneak attacks.

Grand Lodge

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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Sherlock Holmes, Batman, the 2 most iconic investigators, used a lot of underhanded tactics, oh wait, from what i heard, Dick Tracy and Harry Dresden were also pretty underhanded. in fact, the concept of the underhanded detective is fairly well known.

Sherlock Holmes didn't actually do much fighting at all (outside the Robert Downy Jr. reboot). Most of the "combat" was with guns, but Holmes & Watson usually missed except that time they shot a dog. The idea that Holmes was good with a pistol comes from people saying that he was known to be a good shot, and the fact that he shot "V.R." into the wall of his apartment. But he doesn't exactly live up to his reputation in practice.

Same for the hand to hand stuff. There's an occasional bit of hand to hand combat, but it's all Victorian-style boxing that Holmes apparently excelled at. Not exactly "hit below the belt" kinda stuff.

And the whole "martial arts" stuff didn't come into play until after Holmes was killed off and Doyle had to bring him back. You never actually see Holmes use any special martial arts. That's just what he tells Watson by way of explaining how he survived the fight/fall with Moriarty (who, btw, is basically a one-hit-wonder. He was never mentioned before The Final Solution).

So sneak attack works well for the film versions of Holmes, but not so much for the book versions.

I also don't remember Dick Tracy being particularly underhand. He occasionally "socked" someone in the jaw, and frequently got into gunfights, but I don't recall anything that resembled a sneak attack. Lots of gadgets, not so much sneak.

Depictions of Batman after the 1980s are definitely ninja sneak attacky, but not so much before that. And Batman is a special case anyway.

Most of the iconic investigators wouldn't have fought at all. Nero Wolfe didn't even leave his house. Hercule Poirot and Miss Marple never threw a single punch. I haven't read The Moonstone in a while, but I don't remember any fighting there. Dupin just solved the crime and turned things over to the police.

Sneak attack isn't as much of a stretch as poison use. Holmes did pistol whip someone that one time, and the most recent Holmes films have set it up nicely. But it certainly isn't iconic to the investigator archetype.

Grand Lodge

RJGrady wrote:
Seriously, who are these fictional detectives that are not good at sneak attacks? We're not talking Jessica Fletcher here.

The list of detectives who ARE good at sneak attacks would be much, much shorter and generally more recent.

Most detective stories were focused on the mystery, and fighting was minimal or non-existent. And even the later hardboiled detectives tended to be boxers and wrestler types.

Sneaky underhanded fighting detectives are pretty recent. Sam Vimes, post-Frank Miller Batman, newer depictions of Holmes.

Having said that, I don't have any particular objection to sneak attack for the investigator. It may be a more recent development, but that doesn't mean it's a bad development.

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