Qlippoth and Great Old Ones?

[samuraixsithlord]

What's the difference between the two? Are Great Old Ones Qlippoth that are stuck on the material plane or are they the same.

I always felt that making them separate entities was kind of redundant. Seeing as they both basically want the same thing.

[thenobledrake]

That's kind of like saying me and my buddy Nick are the same guy because we both want a sandwich.

[Generic Villain]

Two completely different categories. No Great Old Ones are not Qlippoth stuck on the material plane, and no they are not the same. Also they do not basically want the same thing. Both are largely unknowable and alien, but Qlippoth would really like to exterminate all mortal life (and their souls), whereas Great Old Ones are far more diverse in their desires. Shub-Niggurath for example loves birthing mortal life. (I know Shub-N is technically an Outer God, not a Great Old One, but you get the idea).

To put it another way, Qlippoth are a distinct race of outsiders. Great Old Ones are godlike entities that, thus far, are all of the aberration type. Qlippoth have their own godlike entities (as explored in Beyond the Doomsday Door), but they are not Great Old Ones.

Is there a thematic overlap? Yes. Is that all it is? Pretty much.

[Drejk]

There might be a slight possibility that qlippoths are to old ones the same that demons are to mortals. Both qlippoths and old ones are ancient and alien beings belonging to an older eon of existence predating anything resembling current mortal lifeforms. Could qlippoths be spawned by old ones? Maybe grown from dreams of the old ones? Or their souls, if that term can apply to old ones at all?

[Generic Villain]

Drejk wrote:

Could qlippoths be spawned by old ones? Maybe grown from dreams of the old ones? Or their souls, if that term can apply to old ones at all?

Based on everything I've read, probably not. You can check out everything James Jacobs has said on the matter, but here's a particularly relevant quote (edited by me to only include the relevant snippets):

James Jacobs wrote:

Trinite wrote:

James, in Golarion, there are a lot of different "horrors from beyond"-type alien worldwide threats. After a while, a lot of them seem kind of similar to me.

What would you say are the unique features of each one, and what might make each one the best option for a particular story? Here are a few that I can think of:

[snip]

2. Aucturn and the Dark Tapestry
3. Qlippoth

[snip]

[snip]

2) Aucturn is not part of the Dark Tapestry, but it's got Dark Tapestry influences. The Dark Tapestry itself is our name for "deep space," since "Deep space" sounds too science fictiony. This is the type of horror you see in movies like Alien or Event Horizon or The Thing, as well as the more famous Lovecraft stuff.

3) Qlippoth are essentially the wild animals of the Abyss. A mix of Lovecraft with a lot more ancient traditions; fear of the inhuman and utterly monstrous.

[snip]

Also, there's no suggestion that Great Old Ones are somehow responsible for birthing Qlippoth. For example, it is now confirmed that Rovagug is in fact a full Qlippoth god (as opposed to Qlippoth-turned-Demon Lord like Dagon, or a nascent Qlippoth Lord like Yamasoth). It is also hinted in Beyond the Doomsday Door that there are other full-fledged Qlippoth deities, on par with Rovagug. If anything spawned the Qlippoth race, it would be one of those. Think something like the Queen of Chaos from oldschool D&D (who was, by the way, transformed into an Obyrith [D&D equivalent of Qlippoth] in 3rd edition).

As for whether or not Great Old One souls make Qlippoth, that seems unlikely. The Qlippoth weren't even aware that the multiverse existed outside of the Abyss prior to nosy Proteans poking holes into reality. They certainly weren't connected with the Material Plane. It was only after the Proteans - and later Daemons - got involved, that mortal souls started filtering into the Abyss and transforming into Demons.

[Major_Blackhart]

It was confirmed that Rovagug was a Qlippoth God?
I thought it was heavily hinted at it, but nothing was ever made concrete.
When did they change their minds?

[Alleran]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

It was confirmed that Rovagug was a Qlippoth God?

I thought it was heavily hinted at it, but nothing was ever made concrete.
When did they change their minds?

I don't know that "they" ever changed their minds so much as keep it quiet until more recently-ish.

Link here.

[Zhangar]

The Qlippoth article, Before Sin, that came with Beyond the Doomsday Door (PF 64, which is what James is referring to in Alleran's link) puts forth the "theory" that Rovagug is the greatest of all qlippoths.

The regular qlippoth lords are in the CR 22 to 25 range (Yamasoth is statted out in Before Sin at CR 24). Rovagug is far, far beyond those beings in terms of scale and power.

The Qlippoth are hostile to ALL life, but especially that on the prime material, including the Great Old Ones and their followers.

The Qlippoths would gladly scour the Great Beyond of everything that isn't Qlippoth.

The Great Old Ones are less hostile to us and more... let's say incompatible. Their ideal universe isn't one where we'd be able to survive.

Some of the Great Old Ones aren't even malevolent. Bokrug's Chaotic Neutral, and while it's incredibly vengeful, it isn't malicious.

Cthulhu and Hastur, on the other hand...

[Generic Villain]

Zhangar wrote:

Stuff

Very well put - and better than I managed upthread.

Also I made a mistake up there: So far, two Great Old Ones are aberration types (Cthulhu and Hastur), but Bokrug is a magical beast. This is more evidence in my book that the Great Old Ones are a far more loosely defined group than the Qlippoth. They have very little in common except for the fact that Lovecraft and his circle of fellow writers dreamed them up.

[The Golux]

Two things must ye know about the Great Old Ones:

First: they are Great!

and Second: they are Old!

[Axial]

Great Old Ones and Qlippoth are alike in that they are both Eldritch Abominations.

[Gorbacz]

Basic difference is that Qlippoth actually do give a flip about mortal life . Well, in a quite a nasty way, because they wish to eradicate mortals, because no mortals = no sin, no sin = no demons, no demons = Abyss is QlippothLand again, baby! That's basically their MO.

On the other hand, most GOOs don't even pause to consider the existence of mortals. Sentient life barely registers on their radars, if at all. It's cosmic evil time, and your +5 flaming kukris don't matter.

[Drock11]

If anything as far as their very broad agendas are concerned I think Qlippoths match up better to deamons than to Dark Tapestry creatures.

[Major_Blackhart]

You know, I was wondering about Qlippoth, Rovagug, Demons, worship, and sin in general.

There were some greater qlippoth that became demon lords down the line because they became worshiped and flush with the powers of sin because of it, making them a target of their fellow qlippoths. The best examples of this I can think of is Cyth'V'sug and Dagon.

Now, Rovagug is worshiped, and it's said the strength of his faith is at it's greatest that it's ever been. In addition, word of god states that he is indeed a Qlippoth Lord, the MOST powerful of them all, and essentially the MOST powerful being in existence. Being worshiped and the fact that he grants divine powers means that he acknowledges his worship, though he sees it as a means to destroy.

Now, here's my thing: If he were a Qlippoth, even the most powerful in existence, wouldn't he recoil naturally from such worship, as other Qlippoth and Qlippoth lords do? It's a fact that they don't like it, and that they view sin as something horrific, breeding demons and other creatures that are their enemy by simply existing. Also, isn't it a possibility that he, being flush with sin, might ascend to some other form? Sin affects Qlippoth in such a way. Would Rovagug, as the greatest of Qlippoth, be equally affected by sin and worship?

Also, how would other Qlippoth view Rovagug? I would think it would be with fear, perhaps even hatred. Why? For several reasons, one being that he seeks to destroy EVERYTHING, not just reality but it's implied even Qlippoth.

[The NPC]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

You know, I was wondering about Qlippoth, Rovagug, Demons, worship, and sin in general.

There were some greater qlippoth that became demon lords down the line because they became worshiped and flush with the powers of sin because of it, making them a target of their fellow qlippoths. The best examples of this I can think of is Cyth'V'sug and Dagon.

Now, Rovagug is worshiped, and it's said the strength of his faith is at it's greatest that it's ever been. In addition, word of god states that he is indeed a Qlippoth Lord, the MOST powerful of them all, and essentially the MOST powerful being in existence. Being worshiped and the fact that he grants divine powers means that he acknowledges his worship, though he sees it as a means to destroy.

Now, here's my thing: If he were a Qlippoth, even the most powerful in existence, wouldn't he recoil naturally from such worship, as other Qlippoth and Qlippoth lords do? It's a fact that they don't like it, and that they view sin as something horrific, breeding demons and other creatures that are their enemy by simply existing. Also, isn't it a possibility that he, being flush with sin, might ascend to some other form? Sin affects Qlippoth in such a way. Would Rovagug, as the greatest of Qlippoth, be equally affected by sin and worship?

Also, how would other Qlippoth view Rovagug? I would think it would be with fear, perhaps even hatred. Why? For several reasons, one being that he seeks to destroy EVERYTHING, not just reality but it's implied even Qlippoth.

The Qlippoth who changed allowed it to happen. They saw the power boost and the nw new change in Abyssal management and decided to get in while the getting was good.

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

It occurs to me that Rovagug's worshippers are... different. They're so utterly mad that they're the only evil group who Sarenrae, goddess of redemption, has ordered her faithful to kill on sight without even trying to give them a chance.

[Alex Smith 908]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

You know, I was wondering about Qlippoth, Rovagug, Demons, worship, and sin in general.

There were some greater qlippoth that became demon lords down the line because they became worshiped and flush with the powers of sin because of it, making them a target of their fellow qlippoths. The best examples of this I can think of is Cyth'V'sug and Dagon.

Now, Rovagug is worshiped, and it's said the strength of his faith is at it's greatest that it's ever been. In addition, word of god states that he is indeed a Qlippoth Lord, the MOST powerful of them all, and essentially the MOST powerful being in existence. Being worshiped and the fact that he grants divine powers means that he acknowledges his worship, though he sees it as a means to destroy.

Now, here's my thing: If he were a Qlippoth, even the most powerful in existence, wouldn't he recoil naturally from such worship, as other Qlippoth and Qlippoth lords do? It's a fact that they don't like it, and that they view sin as something horrific, breeding demons and other creatures that are their enemy by simply existing. Also, isn't it a possibility that he, being flush with sin, might ascend to some other form? Sin affects Qlippoth in such a way. Would Rovagug, as the greatest of Qlippoth, be equally affected by sin and worship?

Also, how would other Qlippoth view Rovagug? I would think it would be with fear, perhaps even hatred. Why? For several reasons, one being that he seeks to destroy EVERYTHING, not just reality but it's implied even Qlippoth.

I think the thing is that his followers are actually devote (weird as that sounds) they worship him because they want to serve him and fulfil his goals. Thus they aren't generating more sin because their hearts are pure (pure evil in this case but still) in their devotion to a higher power rather than worshipping him to get something for themselves.

[MMCJawa]

I suspect Rovagug is not affected by worshippers infecting him with Sin simply because he is one of the most powerful things in the cosmos. He is not a mere Qlippoth lord, and so it' unlikely his worship is really going to affect him much.

I always saw the Qlippoth as regarding him as the "final solution" to the sin problem, and suspect that they are probably one of the few outsiders to actively try to support and free him.

[Kthulhu]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

In addition, word of god states that he is indeed a Qlippoth Lord, the MOST powerful of them all, and essentially the MOST powerful being in existence.

I don't know that that's ever been stated officially. He was obliviously the single most powerful being involved in the struggle to lock him up, but that doesn't mean there weren't more powerful beings who didn't give a goddamn one way or another if he was locked up or free.

[Major_Blackhart]

Well, I don't know.
Just because there weren't beings of incredibly power like those Lovecraft gods who probably didn't help doesn't mean that they were more powerful. I suspect it just means that they have such a different rendering of reality that they failed to realize the existential threat that is the Rough Beast.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Personally, I've always figured that for Rovagug, godhood was actually a downgrade...
He/she/it/(???) pretty much really only is cognizant of the Rovagug worshipers in the same way we notice that we need to clean our windshield off after driving through a cloud of mayflies.
Which, in a way, does put Rovagug somewhat in a similar light to the GOO, but not really the rest of the Qlippoth.

[Dragonchess Player]

Major_Blackhart wrote:

In addition, [James Jacobs] states that he is indeed a Qlippoth Lord, the MOST powerful of them all, and essentially the MOST powerful being in existence.

(emphasis mine)

Well, that's probably debatable. ONE of the most powerful, yes. THE most powerful, unknown.

Rovagug is an ascended qlippoth (like Lamashtu is an ascended demon) and the most powerful Golarion deity (so powerful that the rest of them combined could only imprison him). However, comparing Rovagug to Azathoth? Who knows? When it comes down to it, does it really matter for the consistency of ash left from a PC?

[TwiceGreat]

It matters for the curious and those who would like to know the entire story?

For PCs: Lore? If it all goes to final hell, maybe your last option is to fight fire with fire?

If Rovagug is free'd, you're doomed - but what if in those last few moments, you complete the ritual of the Key and the Gate and tear the door open and just...*interplanetary teleport the hell outta there*?

I think the question if a very interesting one. I don't really like the entire 'what's this monsters power level' argument in practice, but it is cool to think about how these great beings compare to each other, or even view each other - something the developers have been frustratingly vague about.

I would like to know more.

[Joshua Goudreau]

Azatoth is the most powerful being in existence. :D

[TwiceGreat]

^I tend to agree.

[Izar Talon]

I also think that Azathoth is the most powerful being in existence. If Pathfinder follows the full mythology of Lovecraft, the entire universe exists as a byproduct of Azathoth's fevered dreams emanating from his court at the center of the universe.

But then again, I also believe that the Outer Gods are more powerful than the "normal" gods. The "normal" gods are beings of the Outer Planes, but the Outer Gods are beings of the Material Plane, and I believe that makes them inherently more powerful. But that's just my opinion, and I have no idea what the official position is.

[Zhangar]

Actually, a number of gods, such as Desna, and even Asmodeus, come from the prime material plane, and most chose to relocate to the Outer Planes to take advantage of their mutability. Desna actually lives in a star on the Prime Material.

Also, James Jacobs recently indicated that Rovagug is stronger than Azathoth, though only by a matter of degrees (as a result of Rovagug actually being intelligent). Which is more a sign of how ridiculously dangerous Rovagug is than anything.

My hunch is that Azathoth, the Center of All, and Yog-Sothoth, Time itself, are the only Outer Gods that might be outright stronger than the regular members of the Golarion pantheons.

[Kthulhu]

You forget Shub-Niggurath

[Kthulhu]

Zhangar wrote:

Also, James Jacobs recently indicated that Rovagug is stronger than Azathoth

link?

[RJGrady]

I imagine that Rovagug's worshippers are singularly focused on the end of all mortal life. I imagine he bestows powers and accepts spiritual energy as he sees fit, without actually caring for his worshippers in any specific way. If he acquired a mortal soul or larvae, he'd probably just eat it as an afternoon snack and go back to doing his thing.

[Icyshadow]

Kthulhu wrote:

Zhangar wrote:

Also, James Jacobs recently indicated that Rovagug is stronger than Azathoth

Link?

I am equally curious of this. Someone get us a confirmation!

[Seventh Seal]

Icyshadow wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

Zhangar wrote:

Also, James Jacobs recently indicated that Rovagug is stronger than Azathoth

Link?

I am equally curious of this. Someone get us a confirmation!

For those who probably should pay attention when a T-rex has something to say in his own q/a thread, here you go:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=801?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here

The relevant information is in the seventh post (or James's third post on the page) from the top.

Just because you asked for it.

[EDIT:] (^_')

[Major_Blackhart]

Rovagug is quite intelligent, and patient as well, being quite possibly one of the oldest beings in existence. He did trick Sarenrae into creating the Pit of Gormuz after all, by playing on her own fury and anger.

[Zhangar]

Kthulhu wrote:

You forget Shub-Niggurath

I intentionally omitted Shubby. I don't feel that she or Nyarlathotep have quite the same oomph as Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth, and I may be erring by putting Yog-Sothoth at Azathoth's level.

They're still extremely powerful, presumably on par with Desna or Asmodeus, but not "it'd take a 10-on-1 dogpile by other gods to even have a chance to stop me" powerful.

[James Jacobs]

Whether or not Azathoth is the most powerful living creature in the Lovecraft universe is sort of a matter of opinion, but you can pretty easily argue the case. Lovecraft never really got into the "ranking of power" of his creatures.

But while Golarion uses some of Lovecraft's creations in IT'S universe... it is not the only source.

Azathoth is powerful, yes, on par with full on deities, but he is not the most powerful deity out there. Like Lovecraft, we don't have an official power ranking for the hundreds of deities that have interests in and around Golarion, but there are plenty more powerful than Azathoth. If only because unlike Azathoth, most deities have the power of reasoning and intellect.

[RJGrady]

Zhangar wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

You forget Shub-Niggurath

I intentionally omitted Shubby. I don't feel that she or Nyarlathotep have quite the same oomph as Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth, and I may be erring by putting Yog-Sothoth at Azathoth's level.

They're still extremely powerful, presumably on par with Desna or Asmodeus, but not "it'd take a 10-on-1 dogpile by other gods to even have a chance to stop me" powerful.

Shub-Niggurath is often underrated because she is primarily known through her heralds, offsprings, and possessions. She is an outer god of a completely alien form. I don't think she has the cosmic reach of Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth but as a physical god is almost unmatched. Also, her classification is in question, so I wouldn't have trouble relating her to the Qlippoth.

As a herald or spawn of Yog-Sothoth is almost certainly less powerful than Azathoth, though the distinction may be academic. As beings of the doorways, they are beyond anything in the Abyss in power.

[Psiphyre]

RJGrady wrote:

Zhangar wrote:

Kthulhu wrote:

You forget Shub-Niggurath

I intentionally omitted Shubby. I don't feel that she or Nyarlathotep have quite the same oomph as Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth, and I may be erring by putting Yog-Sothoth at Azathoth's level...

Shub-Niggurath is often underrated because she is primarily known through her heralds, offsprings, and possessions. She is an outer god of a completely alien form. I don't think she has the cosmic reach of Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth but as a physical god is almost unmatched. Also, her classification is in question, so I wouldn't have trouble relating her to the Qlippoth...

Heh. That's exactly what I've done with my group's highly-modified setting... Since the obyrith (D&D) have been equated with the qlippoth, the setting ended up with the former-obyrith(=qlippoth)-now-demon-lord Pale Night, the Mother of Demons, as an aspect of 'dear momma Shubby' (in our setting). Also, the term 'obyrith' has been recycled as her actual demon lord name. ('Pale Night' is, in my opinion, more of an epithet, not a name, so...)

It does also lead to complicated relationships between her and the other qlippoth and demon lords. After all: "Mother of Demons"... :D

So you're not alone. ^^

Carry on!

--C.

[EDIT for clarity.]

[Erebus of the Tapestry]

I feel like Qlippoth are greatly under represented in Pathfinder... I'd love to see a full expansion on them alone in the future, since they are perhaps my favorite 'group' in all of pathfinder. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[KtA]

Kthulhu wrote:

You forget Shub-Niggurath

Nah. Shub is just a particularly creepy fertility deity. It never made any sense to me to put her on the same level as Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth.

Especially since there is another Mythos deity -- Abhoth -- who is basically the exact same being as the "modern Mythos"* version of her. The Call of Cthulhu RPG even lists Abhoth as an Outer God (for no reason that I can see).

The d20 Call of Cthulhu book has "flavor quotes" for all the monsters and deities, and the one for Shub is actually the description of Abhoth from Clark Ashton Smith's The Seven Geases!

*Because in Lovecraft's stories, there's not really any description or anything associated with Shub. Only a name that's invoked, and one hint in the co-written** story "The Mound" that she's (presumably) a fertility deity ("a sophisticated Astarte", IIRC).

**Though it's actually 100% Lovecraft. IIRC the other author's contribution boiled down to something like "write a story about an Indian burial mound with a ghost".

[godzillaboy6]

samuraixsithlord wrote:

What's the difference between the two? Are Great Old Ones Qlippoth that are stuck on the material plane or are they the same.

I always felt that making them separate entities was kind of redundant. Seeing as they both basically want the same thing.

Well, here is my thesis and its reasoning (I am hoping no one else posted this): Qlippoths are to Old Ones as Demons are to Demon lords. Here is why:

If one reads the lore behind Dagon in the fourth Bestiary, one would find that Dagon used to be a Qlippoth. It also states that Dagon's followers usually work with the followers of the Old Ones. This hints that there is, in the least, an alliance between the Great Old Ones and the Qlippoths. I know it was mostly made that way so that a demon lord that was originally a great old one himself (according to Lovecraft lore), but it is hard to ignore the fact that a qlippoth - turned - demon lord works with the Great Old Ones (according to the acts of the followers).

To add to that, I feel (and I am not the only one) I feel Rovagug is somehow related to one or both sides. For the argument that he could be related to both, he shares the fact that he is older with unknown and alien origins which is the same as both Qlippoths and the Great Old Ones. He shares the same alignment as both factions. The third detail is that he shares a similar love for destruction and nothingness. Many of the Great Old ones seek either the utter destruction/insanity of the human and all live and originate from deep within the void between the planes. Qlippoths desire to wipe out all mortals.

Even if the three parties mentioned (Rovagug, Qlippoths, and the Great Old Ones) all are not related, they at least have enough similarities and situations where they overlap to the point where they could on occasion work together. It would at least be a fun thing to work with during a campaign.

However, what I would love to see, would be a book similar to the book of the damned, but for the Great Old Ones and/or for Qlippoths and their lords. If it is the intention on Paizo's part that Qlippoths and Great Old Ones are in fact related in some way, then it would be cool to expand on that. I would also just love to see a Qlippoth subdomain, more Qlippoths (including a more intimidating looking high cr one), and prestige classes focused on following the causes and beliefs in the Old One and the Qlippoths.

[Kthulhu]

godzillaboy6 wrote:

I know it was mostly made that way so that a demon lord that was originally a great old one himself (according to Lovecraft lore)....

He shares the same alignment as both factions.

Many of the Great Old ones seek either the utter destruction/insanity of the human and all live and originate from deep within the void between the planes.

I wanted to correct a few things here. Lovecraft's Dagon isn't really one of his Great Old Ones, for a couple of different reasons. First off is that in the story where he first used that term, "Great Old Ones" seems to simply be a reference to Cthulhu's race, not the eclectic grouping of demi-god level entities. Secondly, Dagon isn't usually look at as being on that same level...he's a very old, very large, very powerful Deep One...nothing more, nothing less. So, in Pathfinder terms, I would probably use a skum, slap on a size increase to Colossal, maybe the paragon template from v3.5, and throw some cleric of Cthulhu levels onto him.

Secondly, the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods don't have a set alignment that they all follow. Some are Chaotic Evil (although I disagree with the Paizo take on some of those that are stated as CE), they can also range to Chaotic Neutral or Neutral.

Finally, with the exception of Nyarlathotep, most of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods don't care about the destruction and insanity that their presence brings to humans. Humans (and elves, dwarves, etc) are less than nothing to them. And in Pathfinder, most of these entities don't come from the void between the planes, they come from the Prime Material.

[godzillaboy6]

Kthulhu wrote:

godzillaboy6 wrote:

I know it was mostly made that way so that a demon lord that was originally a great old one himself (according to Lovecraft lore)....

He shares the same alignment as both factions.

Many of the Great Old ones seek either the utter destruction/insanity of the human and all live and originate from deep within the void between the planes.

I wanted to correct a few things here. Lovecraft's Dagon isn't really one of his Great Old Ones, for a couple of different reasons. First off is that in the story where he first used that term, "Great Old Ones" seems to simply be a reference to Cthulhu's race, not the eclectic grouping of demi-god level entities. Secondly, Dagon isn't usually look at as being on that same level...he's a very old, very large, very powerful Deep One...nothing more, nothing less. So, in Pathfinder terms, I would probably use a skum, slap on a size increase to Colossal, maybe the paragon template from v3.5, and throw some cleric of Cthulhu levels onto him.

Secondly, the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods don't have a set alignment that they all follow. Some are Chaotic Evil (although I disagree with the Paizo take on some of those that are stated as CE), they can also range to Chaotic Neutral or Neutral.

Finally, with the exception of Nyarlathotep, most of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods don't care about the destruction and insanity that their presence brings to humans. Humans (and elves, dwarves, etc) are less than nothing to them. And in Pathfinder, most of these entities don't come from the void between the planes, they come from the Prime Material.

Before I begin, I would just like to say that you made some good points. However, here are some counter-arguments:

Although Dagon may not be as strong as Cthulhu, I have found many sources that label Dagon as strong as many of the Great Old Ones. Along with that, Dagon already has stats in the Fourth Bestiary of Pathfinder.

On that note: I would like to discuss the dispute of whether the the Great Old ones are, in fact, Chaotic Evil. Although, it isn't all of them, it is majority. However, since Lovecraft himself didn't write it, and because of the way Pathfinder and other role play games are set up, it could be changed.

Although you are right that each Old One has their own individual goals, they still harbor the Apocalypse, which still leads to the destruction and insanity of the mortal races.

Finally, for the Lovecraft lore versus the Pathfinder lore, the discussion is over the interpretation from the Pathfinder company and community. Although Lovecraft was the creator of the The Great Old Ones and all associated mythos, it is still what is being discussed. For example: if this was Lovecraft's lore, Cthulhu would be impossible to kill. However, because it is Pathfinder lore and the such, Cthulhu is a cr 30 that is able to killed under the proper conditions. Also, arguing Lovecraft's true intention and what he would want for the Pathfinder versions of his beasties is a hard argument due to the fact that H.P. Lovecraft isn't alive anymore.

Even though I could continue pushing for my points, I actually found that there was a flaw in my thesis. The one detail I relied on that connected Qlippoths to the Great Old Ones, didn't work. Due to a misunderstanding in a phrase in Bestiary 4's description of Dagon, it hinted more toward the Qlippoth hating him rather than siding with him.

The main reasons though that people are trying to connect the two, are simply (to my understanding) that the Qlippoths lack a God that they are connected to, and that the Great Old Ones lack an outsider race that is just for them. Although there are many outsider races that would serve the Lovecraftian demigods, They have other masters to serve that are more closely associated with them. If more information was given on Qlippoth and their possible masters, and more information on the minions of the Great Old Ones (which may be happening with the companion book "Occult Mysteries")then we could see if they are truly connected or not.

[Zhangar]

Heh. Note that the CR 30 Pathfinder Cthulhu still can't be killed. The best you can ever do is put it back to sleep.

Also, Dagon's an ancient Mesopotamia deity who predates Lovecraft by approximately 4,400 years, though now he's far more associated with HPL's works.

Dagon's always been an abyssal lord in D&D, though I don't think he had stats until 3rd Edition. In 3rd Edition he was one of the few Obyrinth lords. Qlippoths replaced the Obyrinths in Pathfinder for various legal reasons, though the relationship between demons and qlippoths is considerably more hostile than the relationship between demons and obyrinths.

Dagon's agenda definitely doesn't line up with the qlippoth agenda - Dagon's big on unholy fertility rituals to allow all sorts of new and interesting semi-mortal abominations to be born, while qlippoths are opposed to pretty much anything that results in more mortal life.

Dagon and the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones may have some overlap, but they aren't allies. I think Dagon's followers are too "normal" for the Outer Gods.

Wake of the Watcher Spoilers:

Part of the plot of Wake of the Watcher revolves around Mi-Go followers of Shub-Niggurath invading, subduing and forcibly converting a clan of Skum that serves Dagon. The skum cleric on the cover is a former cleric of Dagon who's been turned to Shubby. Anyways, the Mi-Go then seek to create a breach through which Shubby can enter Golarion.

[MMCJawa]

Well...I think one of the reasons why Great Old Ones don't have their own outsider race is that they are deliberately held to be creatures of the material plane. Because of this, they rely on "mortal" servitor races, such as Migo, Gugs, etc.

Although this does raise an interesting point...what happens to priests of Cthulhu and Hastur and such when they die?

[Zhangar]

I assume most of them go to the Abyss, as appropriate for chaotic evil psychopaths who follow things that don't maintain divine realms. But that's probably a very good question for James Jacobs.

[IxionZero]

Heh, that is a good question. Being that the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods don't give a fart in the wind about the 'soul economy' that most deities are involved in, I would assume their worshippers wind up trapped in Purgatory, but maybe they will be judged for their actions and sent to Hell/the Abyss/Abaddon? Or maybe worship of such things destroys anything resembling a soul and they get the sweet reprieve of nonexistence? Seems hardly fitting for the madness and atrocities that they would spread in life though.

[Wrong John Silver]

I'm sure an enterprising daemon is willing to work out a deal to act as the caretaker for souls of followers of the Great Old Ones. It would be in line with Pharasma's rulings, and you'll never have to worry about those souls again. Win-win.

[James Jacobs]

MMCJawa wrote:

Well...I think one of the reasons why Great Old Ones don't have their own outsider race is that they are deliberately held to be creatures of the material plane. Because of this, they rely on "mortal" servitor races, such as Migo, Gugs, etc.

Although this does raise an interesting point...what happens to priests of Cthulhu and Hastur and such when they die?

In this case, the bulk of these souls likely go to the Malestrom (if they're chaotic neutral), the Abyss (if they're chaotic evil, which is the majority), or Abaddon (if they're neutral evil). Some do bypass the whole thing and go directly to one of the outer gods or great old ones without ever going to the Boneyard—typically when they're sacrificed in just the right way at just the right times with just the right magic.

Anyway... if you look at it this way, from a qlippoth viewpoint, the qlippoth actauly do NOT have a reason to ally with the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones, because those who worship them are mostly chaotic evil and their souls end up going to the Abyss and fueling more demon transformations. Worship of the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods ends up making more demons, and that's not what the qlippoth want.

Of course... they keep their focus on the end goal of eliminating mortal life rather than taking on those that they worship. In this case, the qlippoth and the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods are mostly spooky ships passing in the night that don't interact much at all... they may look similar, and they may sail the same ocean, but they don't have much cause ever to directly interact.

[RJGrady]

Dagon may not be just a Deep One. There's actually reason to believe the Deep Ones, as a race, were produced from combining the DNA of whatever he is with piscine and human life.

[IxionZero]

If followers of the Great Old Ones wind up demon fodder most of the time, what about Rovagug's own followers? Being chaotic evil as a matter of fact, they would wind up in the Abyss would they not? Or does Rovagug collect those souls to prevent more demons arising?

Forgive me if this is answered somwehre obvious, I need to do more reading up on the gods of Golarion.