One of the Brothers Three

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WRT repeating AP storylines, at least this one will have some difficulty forcing the players into the mandatory fiendish brothel.


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Remove any and all items whose only effects are casting X spell Y times per day. Every magic item should have a unique effects and the generalized ruleset for making generic items that replicate spells can be used if you must insist on including boring items in your games.

Substantially increase the power of fight-exclusive feats and combat feats in general. They are meant to be the main selling point of the fighter class, they should be of equal power to a whole new level of spellcasting. Feats that require 15th level monk or fighter should be as powerful as 8th level spells.


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It's really about time that goblins were made a core race. They make significantly more sense than half-X races or gnomes being core.


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Savage Rifts is so much better than actual Rifts.


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Well I got my copy.


My only real problem Fantasy Grounds is that I never really run monsters unmodified and my group generally doesn't like any pre-made adventure paths. So it's just about as much work to use Fantasy Grounds as it is to build macros for roll20.


Dazzling Display is the cornerstone of his build.


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I'm sorry to tell you but magic has seen profit growth literally every year of its history except for the year Homelands and Fallen Empires released.


Armstrong has amazing charisma, just no real ranks in any charisma related skill. Hence why he's able to inspire dedication and bonds of comradery just as well as all the other officers when s~+& really hits the fan.


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taks wrote:
Unlikely. The company is over 600 employees (total) and 5E is (or was) the highest selling fantasy TTRPG on the market.

Yes the highest selling fantasy TTRPG on the market makes less than 5% of the revenue of Magic the Gathering the single most popular table top game period in the current market. WotC is first and foremost a company to make Magic cards and everything else is at best secondary. D&D is not even mentioned in their share holders meetings, whereas Magic is toted as one of their top brands responsible for a substantial level of growth.

Hasbro only keeps making D&D for the cultural penetration value, if it makes a profit that's just a nice bonus.

edit: Just another point even in D&D's golden era of mainstream play the 1980s, the D&D tie-in novels outsold the actual rulesbooks by a factor of 4 to one. Dragonlance and Drizzt were more popular than actually playing the game.


Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:


Now from what I can understand, Wizards and pretty much Most 1st tier characters, Wizards, clerics, Druids what have you are capable of breaking campaigns in 2, but this generally only happens after you reach around level 15-16.

This right here is wrong. 4th level spells obtained at level 7 or 8 are about when casters start pulling far ahead of the pack.


Gorbacz wrote:
Well, kiddo, it's in your best interest that the "Stupid Starfinder" is a resounding success, because otherwise you might not see even 6 CS/PC in a year. 5E is in town and it's not taking any prisoners in the "fantasty RPG that can keep a medium-sized company afloat" category.

5E is more "capable of keeping a tiny-sized company afloat and pay for a lot of endorsements". Given teh D&D division of WotC is I think 9 total people.


So far testing it with my players hasn't resulted in any major problems one way or another. The Legendary Shifter in the party is keeping up with the summoner's eidolon and the unchained monk. Each of the three has had plenty of places to shine but not overshadow the others.


1) I have always run with magic weapons just adding special abilities. There is no reason for the enchantment bonuses to still exist if they are being provided by ABP. Additionally if a player is dual wielding just let both of their weapons get the maximum ABP bonus for their level. There is no point in penalizing someone for dual wielding more than they already are by the rules. Same goes for someone using throwing weapons, all their thrown weapons count as having the same enchantment.
2) I have always just allowed the spells to supercede the ABP bonuses. Though this does mean those spells actually lose effectiveness as levels grow. Items that grant those bonuses however are removed from the game.
3) NPCs get the bonuses if they're important enough for me to give them a full stat block, but monsters don't need it. They are already balanced to account for WBL. Also something to note most premade NPC statblocks already have statboosting items on them so they only need minimal adjustment if any. Though this does mean you need to add extra treasure loot to the NPCs given that their pergenned items don't exist anymore.


Anguish wrote:


A valid gripe, but ignoring two important things:

1} Many GMs won't allow anything at their table that isn't in print, for (understandable) balance reasons. Having something in print isn't a panacea against such a GM, but at least it gives a starting point for a request.

2} Magic item pricing is an art, not a science. Once again, having things in print offers more guidance.

I still find them to be supremely boring both as a player to get and as a GM to give. Magic items should all have unique interesting effects.


I like what's generally being done with dragon touched but it's breath weapon damage doesn't really seem to scale all that well. By level 5 or so your natural attack routine will always be preferable to your breath weapon.

If I were to ballpark it I'd guess that one damage die per two levels or so keeps the breath weapon at least interesting. So by level 20 you're getting 10d12+wisdom modifier which isn't world shattering but is still worth considering. About as good as two rogue sneak attacks but only usable once per round.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Hey there folks,

Just an fyi, most of us are out of the office on break right now. I am in fact, typing this from home while sipping some eggnog.

Anyway... couple of things.

1. We didn't do a playtest for the shifter due to the its timing. It was going through its paces right during the ramp for Starfinder and we didn't want to pull focus. That said, it got a fair bit of internal work. In retrospect, this may not have been best for the class.

2. We will have more to talk about on the Shifter in the coming weeks once we are all back in the office.

3. Its been pointed out that I have been pretty quiet here on the boards, which is true. Much of my work these days is on stuff far flung into the future, and by the time any of my work hits your hands, its over a year past my desk. Makes it kind of tricky to stay informed. I still read the boards frequently, but I try not to get drawn into too many discussions, leaving that instead to those who are closer to the work. That said.. it is something I am hoping to change in the coming year.

Just thought I would offer up some thoughts. We are still listening. We still care about your thoughts and ideas. We want your criticisms, your suggestions, and your rambles. We may not have the time needed to comment everywhere, but we do hear you.

Have a happy holidays everybody.

thanks for the update


Onyewu wrote:

Overall, I like your work, but still feel it's missing something. I recommend a tweak to the aspect and replace the bonus feats & wildshape rapid shifts with "talents" gives flexibility that round out the class more.

Shifter Aspect: Keep the at-will minor aspects. Major aspects can be used 3+level for 1 minute.
Alternatively go with 1/2 level + Wis for 1 minute/level (see below).

What are you referring to when you say major aspects? I'm not finding them on the playtest.


So I have a question that might be a bit uncomfortable. Why does this book have the same cover illustration as MYFAROG? Is this just a case of the artist reselling the same illustration or is there some actual connection?

Cause if there was a connection I think plenty of people would feel uncomfortable supporting something associated with a convicted murderer, church burner, and white supremacist.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Gotta agree with Rysky here. The vigilante is a chassis, around which an infinite array of character ideas can be wrapped around. Ignore the trappings, and enjoy the mechanical benefits to create the character you want.

I'm not even sure it is "designed" for a "single city focused adventure" solely - sure, you could use it for that, but it is so much more.

Completely agreed. The only mechanical thing that the vigilante is designed to do is "martial class that is also competent in social situations". So like I'd play most knights as a vigilante to differentiate their courtly selves from the professional they are on the battlefield. Same thing with like even a WW1 soldier.


Completely agreed


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I've said this many times before but magic items that just cast X spell Y times per day as their only function are infuriating and a waste of page space. Every wondrous item should have some unique or continuous function. We already have a pricing formula for X spell Y times per day, there is no need to continue giving examples.


Vigilantes are an excellent class that just has a slight problem with having so many options it looks intimidating to people just getting into the class. Once you get into the groove of it the vigilante is one of the best classes designed for d20 though.


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Ryan Freire wrote:


Since joining these boards i've come to find out that there are people who earnestly believe Paladins are unplayable and ban them from their table, and that standard adventurer stuff would cause an autofall for any paladin anyway.

Whats the inherent value in an opinion that literally removes a core book class from play, not on balance or theme considerations, but because you believe its non functional out of the book?

Yeah there is this weird myth that people on these boards tell themselves that paladins are somehow inherently the most disruptive class in the game.


Kthulhu wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Gross.
I'm not sure why this qualifies as "gross" any more so than certain things put forward by Paizo itself (namely hook Mountain Massacre).

It's more that it's gross and boring.


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Kalindlara wrote:

So you would find Paizo's content more acceptable if you didn't have to pay "a premium rate" for it. Have I understood your post correctly?

I'm curious as to how d20pfsrd and its sister sites fit into this equation... it sounds as though accessing the content at no charge would be the perfect solution to your complaint. ^_^

Yes and I can always jettison Microsoft entirely and just use Linux, but that still results in a more cumbersome experience than staying on the subscription. Now only that but I like a large portion of Paizo's output and as such want to keep it going for my group. That does not mean complaints about when I don't like the content are illegitimate.

Hell if I didn't complain about the bad then my compliments about the good would be meaningless, because anyone who gives nothing but unconditional praise is fundamentally wasting their time. It means they're doing no evaluation whatsoever, and their opinion holds no value.

knightnday wrote:


Thing is, the car turns over. The problem seems to be that people thought they were getting a tricked out sports car and instead got a moderately priced sedan instead. The shop cannot help fix that.

If we're going with that scenario though, if I pay a sportscar price for a sedan I'd be rather upset and possibly litigious.


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I'm not adverse to fixing something myself. I'm adverse to paying for something that I have to fix myself. If I have to fix someone's homebrew class that they distribute for free I wouldn't be so vitriolic. This a game made by professionals charging a premium rate. so I expect to receive a professional product. This is the same as me calling and remanding a refund from my ISP when they fail to meet their promised network uptime, or taking in my warrantied appliance when it breaks, or kevetch about windows 10 being a straight downgrade of windows 7. I can fix all of these things myself with enough effort but I'm paying for them so I shouldn't have to. I could lay my own cable line, fix my own appliances, and use regedit and basic coding to make Windows 10 better, but that would mean I'm paying for labor that I then have to do myself anyways.

To put it another way, as a fellow old timer. Do you expect your car to turn on when you turn the key? If the engine fails to turn over after basic troubleshooting do you take it to the shop or do you break out the tools and fix the problem yourself? Would you be satisfied if the shop refused to help you because you could fix it yourself?


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The relevant criticism has been stated and restarted regarding what's wrong with the shifter and kineticist. Every time though the designs' defenders will attack at strawman of its critics. Also amusingly in both cases Legendary Games has more or less fixed the class. The current playtest for the legendary version of shifters is currently up and looking good, basically addressing every problem anyone had with the Paizo shifter.


Elorebaen wrote:
MR. H wrote:
All criticisms are useful for design.

This is incredibly naive to the point of being a flat out falsehood. In fact, an overwhelming majority of opinions masquerading as criticisms are a waste of time. Time that is better spend designing/creating/etc.

I got a secret for you. All criticisms are opinions. There is no such thing as an objective criticism.


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I think that a lot of vitriol came about because during the last major playtest the there was an obvious refusal by Paizo to respond to criticism over the kineticist. Specifically constructive criticism regarding its wonky numbers by people who really liked the class.


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You could also go with the vampire hunter class from the Vampire Hunter D tie in book.


Isonaroc wrote:
Margaret Dickson, hanged, survived, granted pardon.

You're right there. Though my point would still mostly stand in that she wasn't just found to be alive immediately afterwards and pardoned. She was only found to be alive after she was out of the court's hands and with people who wanted to protect her.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Something like a song of fire and ice gives you a lot of interaction from multiple points of view. RPGs are seen from the players point of view (usually as a group but occasionally from their own solo side quest/ pm'd role playing)

The kids may not know they're adopted, so that's not something a random stranger may find out from casual dialog.

People that are just always together without kids may be friends or something more. Its not likely to come up on the way to the dungeon. Its not just a murderhobo setting where you won't see it, you need to be going pretty heavy into "the adventures of our lives" end of the spectrum to have it come up without a little push.

Of course you're not going to get it immediately, but supposing you stay put for any great length of time you're going to eventually find out what people's relationships are even if just through inference. Like even taking books that only include a single forced perspective the first trilogy of Black Company books give you more than enough information directly know or infer everyone's relationship and feelings toward each other. Most of these aren't romantic but you're going to know the generals even though they happened off screen and despite the fact that the narrator's primary focus is a military campaign.


I haven't been able to find any substantiated cases of pardons for failed executions. There have been cases where a mob interferes and as a result prevents a second go at the execution, but it has never been a part of actual law either written or common law. A lot of the pop culture belief in it comes from failing to understand old timey trials by ordeal, where surviving or not surviving was what determined your innocence or guilt.


Renata Maclean wrote:
...Generally a criminal's sentence is considered to be complete after a single execution. Unless they have committed additional crimes since being raised, executing them again isn't justified

That's a bold assumption to make about a society in which the dead can be raised. Given that the whole "if they fail to kill you with an execution you get to go free" is wholely a TVism. For instance the state of Texas has had to execute the same man upward of six times before due to faulty equipment. The sentence is "until dead" which you know they missing a requirement for that case to be shut if you come back.


David knott 242 wrote:
And even if they meet the homosexual couple, if the party and the merchants that they are dealing with stick to business and no personal life issues are brought up, how would the party even know that they have met a homosexual couple?

I'd say that the answer to this question is entirely related to how much intrigue and social interaction is going on in the campaign, so basically all external roleplaying.

If you're going to get to know the inhabitants of a given town you're eventually going to learn whose children are adopted, whose married to who, and the basics of the town's major family trees. If you're in an intrigue heavy game interpersonal relations are a huge part of making any sort of plans the players or NPCs engage in. I mean can you imagine making sense of a Song of Ice and Fire without knowing who is married to whom? Hell even the much simpler plot of Lord of the Rings* is largely built on familial relations.

So really the only people who aren't going to notice any couples are pure murder hobos. Which I would think given how often people call me a rollplayer on these message boards are a minority.

*I only said plot here. I'd make an argument that the thematic and philosophical underpinnings of Lord of the Rings are much more complex than ASoIaF but the actual events of the plot are themselves simpler.


As a GM who runs almost exclusively homebrewed settings I generally try to map out population migrations and habits of my settings based on real life populations in similar climates. So for instance in a campaign that was primarily built up around a cold wet continent that has impacted a hot tropical continent with a small land bridge in between; the racial layout of mostly people who looked mostly like Latinos with the far northern areas looking like Northern Europeans and the people of the far south looking like South American native.

My players have never really had a problem with me telling them the race their character most likely is if they're from a given region. If they want to play something else it gives them a hook for being "different" in some way from the majority populous and if they want to be of the majority group I've just told them what that is.


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The item Reaper's Wisdom looks to have some sort of error caused by editing the item's effects. The item description "increases the virulence of all poisons used by the wearer", but despite this the item just gives a once per day ability and nothing else.

Not only this the once per day ability is just bypassing delay poison. This ability is pathetically weak for its 21k price tag. Did the item previously bypass delay poison on every hit?


E6 is probably a good idea for the tone it sounds like you're going for.


Oh right, another thing. For monster variety you probably want to use a few more Bestiaries as the GM, unless you want literally every monster to be from the mythos.


GRuzom wrote:

Thanks! This is very helpful!

I GM a low fantasy GURPS campaign with a Cthulhu twist. The players are not so fond of the system and I've been thinking about changing to Pathfinder rules. This sounds like just what I need:-)

Could the player make characters using CORE & AGP and then play them with these rules?
And, could I, as GM use my other Pathfinder books, NPC's and such?

Thanks again

You can run this book with just the Pathfinder core rules no issues. I only have two caveats on that. First you should allow players to use the players options section of this book where campaign appropriate. Obviously if ghouls or dreamlands cats don't work as races in your campaign setting disallow that, but some of the feats and equipment presented for players in this book are expected for dealing with the threats presented, specifically mechanics for dealing with dread and insanities.

Second to keep a low fantasy feel in Pathfinder it is advisable to restrict the spell selection of full casters, those being spellcasters capable of casting 9th level spells. There is a habit of Pathfinder to bypass roleplaying opportunities via spells that just magically solve a problem. Specifically I'd either just ration out wizard spellbook access or just make spellcasters be sorcerers/oracles instead of wizards/clerics.


SorrySleeping wrote:
It can't fly sadly.

Giant vulture mount supremacy strikes again.


Something I've been wondering is why are their both harbinger archons and lantern archons. They really seem to hit the same basic beats.


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I've got the pdf as a backer. Unless I have missed something that is 0 Golarion specific material in this book. It is far more focused on importing Lovecraft specific setting elements and Call of Cthulhu RPG adventure structure into any given Pathfinder setting than it is integrating it into any specific pre-made campaign setting.

It is a good book.

The major alterations from base Pathfinder are changing the fear rules, changing the insanity rules, and massively overhauling how Great Old One stats are represented.

They replace the normal three stages of fear effects with a ten step dread track. When you encounter a dread effect and fail your will save you increase your dread level by 1 plus 1 per 5 by which you failed the DC.

As far as I can tell dread only applies to situational fear, magical effects, and reactions to horrifying events, and does not replace demoralization from intimidate. Though intimidate and similar effects apply along dread but do not stack. So someone shaken from intimidate and at stage 3 dread suffers the effects from both but intimidate does not move them up the dread track.

Insanity is now explicitly the reaction to higher levels of dread than one can normally handle, and are generally all reactions to traumatic events. As such they're mostly described in terms of symptoms rather than specific mental disorders in real life. They occur when they have a dread level high than your dread threshold (3+your wisdom modifier).

Then for the Great Old Ones although most of them have a monster statblock as a part of their overall stats they also all have some sort of terrain effect. It reminds me most of the Signs possessed by the Elder Evils book in 3.5. Though disappointly most of the Great Old One Influence effects are far more localized than the Elder Evil Signs. I would have liked a bit more "the rules for your entire world change as his approach".

Are there any other specific questions you might have?


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Robert Brookes wrote:


The ooze form isn't a benefit, it's effectively a "bad thing" that the oozemorph manages to make the best of. In their natural, blobby state they're at a distinct disadvantage in a lot of ways. This is why their damage reduction and compression abilities still work outside of their ooze form. Outside of getting a (slow) climb speed, they're very vulnerable in that state.

The oozemorph is mean to excel when in humanoid (or others, depending on level) form, utilizing damage reduction, compression, and morphic weaponry (on top of the remaining shifter abilities).

Dropping into blob form might be able to be creatively used to good effect, but it is primarily a drawback and should be viewed as such.

That said, oozemorphs can absolutely benefit from ioun stones in both forms.

Why make a class whose whole gimmick is being an ooze and then only allow them to be effective by shapeshifting back into a humanoid?

Will we get an actual playable ooze class or archetype in the future?


Is this the same warlock in new paths compedium?


Full BAB is great but needs to be combined with something else and is essentially worthless without other class features to make use of it. Hence why Shifter is just a worse version of Feral Hunter. Hunter has 5 fewer BAB but more than makes up for that in its access to better wildshape forms alone, even before any buffing is taken into consideration.


This is a damn good pdf. It's even properly bookmarked and hyperlinked.


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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Morbid Eels wrote:
Sad to hear that the Shifter is a disappointment.
I would suggest still seeing it for yourself because of the "internet".

The thing is the class is flawed at a conceptual level. The shapeshifting class should be flat out better at shapeshifting than the druid. The druid has shapeshifting as barely one third of its major class features yet a class that has shapeshifting as 100% of its class features is worse. To do otherwise is just obviously bad design.

Brew Bird wrote:
Disappointment about lack of varied shapeshifting aside (something we've known about the class for a while), I can't help but remember the Kineticist. There were a million threads about how the class was terrible when Occult Adventures came out. But people eventually warmed up to the class, and now it's generally regarded as a fun and well-balanced option (yes, I know someone's going to contest this the moment they see it.)

Well take all the fun out of it why don't ya.


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Wow the shifter is bad. It's wildshape should be errata'd to just read "functions as a druid of equal level" and nothing else. These restrictions are beyond stupid.

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